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There isn't a car sold today that needs to be floored to reach highway speed by the end of the ramp, but there are very few drivers willing to expend enough gas to do so. The result is that my little Echo (which needs much less than full throttle to accomplish this) is the only one ever going 65 at the top of the ramp.
And that's only when I have an open road ahead, usually I am stuck in a huge pack of cars merging at 45 mph for no good reason. I find this to be true even when the head of the pack is an expensive sports car, saw a Corvette leisurely steaming onto 101 at 50 mph the other day, and that was at the top of a particularly long onramp. :sick:
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It would be more fun with a stick. Have to say, having done it probably 200 times in the last decade, I could stand some fewer curves. That's 200 up, and 200 down, with a 3,000' elevation gain/loss. Gives me a touch of vertigo just thinking about it. The local Porsche Club chapter runs an 8 turn/2 mile course on it every year:
The recall spreads:
Toyota Motor's Pedal Recalls Spreads Into Europe (WSJ)
they tried both, and guess what happened? that's right; nothing.
it was as if they had not shifted the car out of gear at all.
the car did have the 'prndl' type shift pattern.
What? Not that much fun in a 9 year old mini van with automatic?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
So when we were out in CA, we borrowed my mom's '97 Sienna for family transport (she just got a Fusion Hybrid, so there was an extra car). We went up the coast a bit to San Luis Obsipo and came back through Najoui Falls, Solvang and down HWY 154 to Old San Marcos Rd.
Running up and down those mountain passes (especially Old San Marcos) from my youth (on bicycles, Eclipses, Preludes, 300zxs, Mustangs, VWs, Porsches, etc) in that minivan was eh, unnerving. In previous trips we've had the 330ci or the G35 and it was less nerve wracking.
Unfortunately it also make me REALLY miss it out there. :sick:
Steve, not all SUVs handle poorly. The X5 and Cayenne along with several other German made SUVs will more than give the Subaru a run for the money. Nothing from Toyota though.
Old San Marcos is a no-go with the MIL's Prius, especially up. HWY 154, San Marcos Pass, should be okay as long as the road isn't on fire or mud sliding down the hill. A few road trips ago, it was going over HWY 17 to Santa Cruz, and an uphill highway onramp in Pismo that made me realize I couldn't do that car.
The Prius did get like 50 mpg going from SB to Disneyland though getting home just as the Gap Fire was starting :sick:
Ah, so that's what that big blur passing me last week was. :-)
Old San Marcos? Try the Old Priest Grade.
(and thanks for keeping it on topic - I'll try better).
Toyota Recall, Murky Messaging Spurs Consumer Mistrust (AutoObserver)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100126/ap_on_bi_ge/us_toyota_recall
The article is not clear whether they are just suspending production or actually halting all sales. That is a pretty big hit. Interesting that most Camrys are not on the list. And no mention of Lexus.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/01/26/business/main6144294.shtml">CBS News .com
They have had long enough to figure out the problem if they had actually listened to the people saying it was their floor mats. Instead Toyota was interested in pushing out PR that it was the floor mats, alone.
Then it was the strange physics in having moisture collect next to a heater on worn accelerator rheostat parts. This occurring on fairly new cars.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The recall affects the 2009-2010 RAV4, the 2009-2010 Corolla, the 2009-2010 Matrix, the 2005-2010 Avalon, the 2007-2010 Camry, the 2010 Highlander, the 2007-2010 Tundra and the 2008-2010 Sequoia.
You can look at it two ways - either Toyota is stepping up to the plate like no one before in addressing a problem or Toyota screwed up worse than anyone has before. Take your pick.
Toyota blames the latest recall on a supplier in Canada. The automaker told USA Today, for an article posted Monday, that it recognized the problem as long ago as late 2008 but hadn't seen enough problems to issue a recall.
Good time of year to shut down the dealerships and go to Hawaii.
There's a plan!
The killer toyotas are examples of the biggest engineering failure in automotive history. Everyt aspect of the failure(s) will be discussed in engineering classes for a long time.
Neither GM nor any other company has had such a series of worst-case/corner-case flaws combining with multiple system failures, and with such fatal effect.
If you think there is a worse engineering/process failure in auto history, name it?
As opposed to a bean counter failure?
I'm thinking Ford gas tanks that blow up in rear end crashes - Mustangs, Crown Vics, Pintos.
People blame the owners for the Audi unintended acceleration problem back in the 80s, but some say the pedals were too close together (compared to the cars Americans were used to driving). Almost drove Audi out of North America.
What's a "corner-case" flaw btw?
What about that little issue that Chevy had with the motor mounts on the V-8 full-sized cars in 1965? IIRC, the mounts would fail and the engine would tilt over to the driver's side, and depending on how far over it fell, it could take out your brakes, jam the accelerator wide open, mess up the shift linkage, and interfere with the steering.
I have a 2010 Highlander with 600 miles on it and a 2006 Avalon XLS w/NAV etc. that I am supposed to sell tomorrow evening to a coworker.
I'm screwed.
____________
"In 1965, Nader wrote Unsafe at Any Speed, a study that revealed that many American automobiles were unsafe, especially the Chevrolet Corvair manufactured by General Motors. The Corvair had been involved in accidents involving spins and rollovers, and there were over 100 lawsuits pending against GM in connection to accidents involving the popular compact car. These lawsuits provided the initial material for Nader's investigations into the safety of the car."
John
I think the Ford Pinto that killed 500 people is the king. I guess we will get the total number of deaths from Toyota's defect at some point and it might be the new King. It is amazing the power of the internet because I do not remember the pinto defect getting all the attention that Toyota is getting now. Just think if that happened to Ford today. I believe it would of be the end of Ford.
Remember the Pinto? It was one of the industry's hottest-selling subcompacts during the 1970s. Its success enhanced the reputation of Lee Iacocca - until an estimated 500 deaths and hundreds of injuries were linked to a faulty design that made the gasoline tank vulnerable to explosion after rear-end collisions.
On June 9, 1978, Ford agreed to recall 1.5 million Ford Pinto and 30,000 Mercury Bobcat sedan and hatchback models. Iacocca was fired the following month.
It was too late to save Ford's reputation. Ford customers filed 117 lawsuits, according to Peter Wyden in The Unknown Iacocca. A 1979 landmark case, Indiana vs. Ford Motor Co., made the automaker the first U.S. corporation indicted and prosecuted on criminal homicide charges
Read more: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artikkel?Dato=20030616&Kategori=SUB&Lopenr- =306160770&Ref=AR##ixzz0doczACfl
It was NOT the stupid floor mats that caused the accidents.
Toyota stopping sales PROVES that they KNOW that.
It's something wacky in their "drive by wire" system.
I knew that after the San Diego tragedy.
They'll figure it out fairly quickly I would assume. There are engineers working 20 hour days right now in Japan, you can bet your bottom Yen on that.....
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
>It's something wacky in their "drive by wire" system.
We agree on something, larsb!
Or in the computer firmware. And on the Lexus version of toyotas, is the shifting done by wire also? Why didn't the driver shift into neutral? Wouldn't the computer let him shift? That's why I think "COMPUTER PROBLEM" after dealing with Microsoft OS's for years (I was a Macintosh user for a long time).
The mats explain a few of the problem cars. But if you go reading around the net including the nation of toyota users forum, burier is a topic about class action suit and some discussion of various models' problems.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
A little hyperbole? How many have died?
Andre and Steve have mentioned the infamous engine mount failure on millions of full-size Chevys back in the late 60s and the fuel tank fires on the Pinto. Then there's the Corvair, also cited.
How about the Ford automatic tranny "Park into Reverse" problem which killed many, and Ford got off with only having to post a warning label on the dash? And Ford again with the Firestone tire/Explorer fiasco. I believe about 280 deaths were attributed to that problem.
A little-known problem was the failure of lower A-arms on full-size Fords in 1969 and (I believe) '70. Ford recalled the police versions of the cars but never did anything about civilian versions (like the Crown Vic fire situation today).
Shifting on Toyotas and Lexuses is not "by wire" (except on the Prius and likely the other Hybrid models). We can go on and on speculating about the Saylor crash, but one possibility he couldn't shift into neutral was the shift lever could have been in the "manumatic" gate; he would have had to have moved the lever laterally back into the Drive/Neutral slot.
Also please remember that a few days before the Saylor crash, another driver of the SAME loaner car experienced sudden acceleration, was able to stop the car, and pulled the floor mat out from under the gas pedal. He reported the problem to the dealer, but nothing was done about the situation, in which an incorrect all-weather mat was placed on top of the factory mat.
I have to get back to work now, don't have the apparent luxury of time looking at all of these other forums.
The question I have. Is the mechanical part of the DBW system the only defect? Toyota swore it was the floor mats. Now they are pointing fingers at a Canadian supplier of the linkage as the problem.
I see a pattern developing. If it is NOT electronic, why did the dealer replace several sensors and a control unit on the Toyota that was in the news with a stuck open throttle?
Thank you for answering my question about whether there's a direct link.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Supposedly that automatic transmission issue killed more people than the Pinto fires. I did a little digging around, just to find how many people actually died in Pinto fires. That 500 figure is cited here and there, but I think it's inflated. I did find some stats that said as of 1974, when the Pinto fire issue started getting a lot of press, something like 27 people had died in Pinto fires. Another 27 died in Pintos because of that transmission issue. And 180 total had died as a result of ALL Ford cars with that transmission issue.
While we're picking on automakers, I guess we should also throw out the 1973-87 full-sized GM trucks and their saddle tanks. T-bone one at roughly 73 mph, and it'll erupt in flames almost as if there were toy rockets strapped under there. :surprise:
Interestingly, total death rates for the Pinto, AND the 1973-87 GM pickups, were slightly lower than competing vehicles of the time. So while you were more likely to die by fire in a Pinto or the GM trucks, you were more likely to get snubbed by something else in the competition. So, pick your poison, I guess.
No matter how quickly or effectively this is settled there will be major damage to Toyota's reputation that will likely lose the Camry's number one selling car title and cost significant market share loss. It should also depress the highly valued reputation of Toyotas for holding their value.
I understand the other cases cited, like the Exploding Fords, but I think this is bigger yet.
Toyota's troubles come at a time when news comes at us from all directions. 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. That was not the case with the Pinto or Explorer Firestone recalls.
The widespread news makes it bigger than life.
I would think that the two biggest winners in this disaster will be Hyundai and Ford. GM and Honda won't be too bad either.
exploding pinto gas tanks is a good example. we can compare customer casualty-count when it's all said and done - that would be my preferred metric to see which was the worst auto engineering flaw in history.
so far maybe the Toyota casualty-count is less than Pinto's 500 (?).
There have been many thousands of incidents with Toyotas - not sure of total # of incidents with Pintos. One factor is that there are so many more Toyotas on the road than there ever were Pintos...
Firestone/tires example could be the worst. I wonder if the after-analysis of that one will have similarities with the after-analysis of the current killer-Toyota issues.
A corner-case flaw is one that does not occur every time - one that requires multiple simultaneous/unlikely failures/conditions/timings. In software one example is called a "race condition" - an unexpected timing/algorithm situation that never showed up in testing - only shows up in the field.
210delray asked why call them "killer toyotas" and "how many have died"? I'm not sure of the total deaths - at least 8, and many more casualties, out of thousands of documented incidents. Surely there is no argument that the number of deaths due to these Toyota flaws is nonzero and increasing month to month? And that zero other car manufacturers for USA cars are currently experiencing anything similar with their products?
I might buy some back if it falls down far enough. Toyota's gonna get beat up on this one, but I have a feeling they'll be back, eventually.
I understand that what is different in the toyota case is that they are proven NOT to be the drivers fault.
For the other cases,I understand that the cases are overwhelmingly proven to be caused solely by driver-error. I understand this has been true since the 1980s with that ancient Audi situation.
I have a friend who was an engineer at the Firestone plant in Decatur, IL which is now closed. During the Ford Explorer debacle, he explained to me in detail the problem. It was not the tire per se, but Ford's very firm requirement of inflation pressure. The tire design was technically sound, but for increased ride comfort, Ford required the tire to be inflated below Firestone's engineering inflation pressure specification. Certainly, Ford took a hit on this, but Firestone took the biggest hit with PR and the loss of thousands of jobs.
Toot your Horn or Eat Your Hat (or both?)
Doggrandma - Hyundai could indeed be next:
Anyone experience Sudden Unintended Acceleration in a Santa Fe (20 posts but I haven't checked to see how many actual drivers are complaining).
Lemko - Until we get to 2011, we may have to tweak this one (yet again). Something like Toyota off the Deep End in 2010.
Add in that people tend to overload their vehicles in the summer anyway and then go on long high speed trips and that lower tire pressure turned out to be a killer. People don't check their tire pressure it gets low then they overload the car, with a roof rack full of stuff no doubt so higher COG, drive fast on the highway when ambient temp is 90 plus and boom you get exploding tires.
The "on the mend in twenty ten" isn't working anymore. :P
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,