Great analogy and spot on observation. I agree totally.
I have never owned a Toyota and have had little to no desire to own one since cars like the Supra and Celica. Sure, there have been various test drives and even a close purchase of a current generation RAV4 V6 (fantastic engine, nimble chassis, spartan interior) and for a while I yearned for a 6-spd IS250 (even had my name on the waiting list when they first came out) but Toyota has never found that sweet spot for me which is the fun-to-drive facter. Lexus? Sure, maybe for my wife if she wanted one :shades:
But as someone else pointed out on these boards, we are boardering on hysteria here. Jeeze, if your afraid of your car, bring it to the dealer for petes sake. Fix it and be done with it, drive on for 200 - 300 thousand miles like every other Toyota product out there.
I feel bad for the people who are going to over-react to this and fall for the onslaught of anti-Toyota (anti-foriegn anything for that matter) vendetta that is plaguing boards like Edmunds and give into the wolves at the dealership who now have the distinct scent of blood. Be prepared to get taken is all I can say to that.
Again, I drive 30 thousand miles a year for work and 1 out of every 5 or so vehicles I see are Toyota products. I have yet to see one of these "out of Control" Christine's threatening my life on the freeway. I work and know plenty of people who own Toyota products and there is no hysteria at all. The ones I've talked with about this agree that if the gas pedal is going to stick, it will be a gradual process, not instantaneous.
But whatever, like British Rover pointed out, look in the closets of any major automaker and you will find skeletons. A couple of good years of solid product will right the ship and steer it clear of the iceberg. :shades:
I don't care about car's brand. I owned European, American and Japanese cars. Toyota build great appliances for comfort transportation, I have no problem with it. Lots of people hates driving and learning how to DRIVE a CAR. Toyota has nothing in US what could be close to 335i or G37. IS350 still an appliance with sporty spirit. I blamed GM for problems with my Corvette, but I'm going to buy a new one. Why? Because it is the driver's car!!! I don't fill safe in appliance.
Yes the Pinto was 30+ years ago but the Pinto disaster didn't cause Ford's fall in marketshare, in fact after the Pinto problem Ford in the 90s went on an ungodly profit tear with all the SUVs and trucks printing money faster than they could spend it.
But it was these very SUVs and trucks, actually the over dependence on them and the marketing decision not to pay much attention to the subtle shift toward more fuel efficient vehicles, that caused Ford ( +GM +C ) to lose 50% of their marketshare.
After the Pinto Ford made more money than it made before the Pinto. There is nothing logical that can be determined from that event....except that the American public is concerned first and foremost about itself above all else. An owner's own personal situation and experience is far more important over and above all the hysteria, all the dire threats of imminent demise and all the rantings by the group of anti-fans. This is inconcievable to the prophets of doom herein.
"How can the public ignore all these events? Aren't they filled with hatred toward Toyota like I am? Don't they see? Don't they understand?"
The point that these prophets cannot understand is that everyone of us individuals is basically self-centered. If we are satisfied and feel secure in our own decisions then we don't care one bit what you or anyone else thinks. We're watching out first and foremost for No 1, ourselves. The reality is that 99.9+% of current Toyota owners have experienced nothing of these issues and are not likely to experience anything like it either. The long view, c.f. Pinto, Exploder, Dexcool, sludge, on and on and on, is that if it doesn't happen to me then it never happened. It's someone else's bad luck.
From your current and prior posts I'd clearly expect to find you in the anti-T group so your position now is not surprsing. Life goes on.
After the Pinto Ford made more money than it made before the Pinto. There is nothing logical that can be determined from that event....except that the American public is concerned first and foremost about itself above all else. An owner's own personal situation and experiences is far more important over and above all the hysteria, all the dire threats of imminent demise and all the rantings by the group of anti-fans. This is inconcievable to the prophets of doom herein.
I think the advantage that Ford had with the Pinto, and this could apply to Chevy with the Vega, is that the problems didn't necessarily stop people from buying Fords (or Chevies) It just stopped them from buying Pintos (and Vegas). And even then, in final-year 1980, Ford managed to move about 165,000 Pintos, a sales figure that would probably make it a top-ten selling vehicle in 2009.
In those days, people had sort of a disconnect between economy cars and the rest of the fleet. They expected their Pintos, Vegas, etc to be cheap, and have shortcomings, even dangerous ones, that you just put up with. If you got stuck with a crappy Pinto and complained about it, people probably would say "told you so, you should've bought a Maverick, Granada, Fairmont, etc", "you get what you pay for", etc.
These days though, people expect all cars, even small cheap ones, to be good. And unfortunately for Toyota, this acceleration problem seems to be hitting a wide variety of classes. Not just small, cheap cars.
Volvo as I recall invented the first oxygen sensor combined with a 3-way catalytic converteer, and began using it in 1976 models, possibly only in California. I had a 1980 Volvo 240, and it definitely had an oxygen sensor (one wire only). Also the sensor in my '98 Nissan Frontier is easy to get at.
But until someone actually experiences a problem then it's only someone else's bad luck. The hysteria in this internet age can be sharp and intense but the attention span of the public is extremely limited. There are far more important issues to each individual than somebody else's bad luck. Again I'll say that if it's not happening to me then it never happened.
Your examples of the Pinto and the Vega were truly horrible vehicles in so many ways. These current issues however are limited to a miniscule number of possible occurances in a very limited scope of operation. Otherwise the vehicles are wonderful just as all the rest of today's vehicles are.
There's a recall for mats and 'pedal shaping' on my Prius and on my wife's Highlander. We both love both vehicles and we are NOT going to have anything done to either vehicle under this bogus recall. We will buy another Toyota when the time comes. She's already decided on a Tacoma DoubleCab 4WD and when I reach 275,000 miles or so I'll get another Prius. Our own personal experiences far outweigh anyone else's view or potential bad luck. The long view? Life goes on as before.
And unfortunately for Toyota, this acceleration problem seems to be hitting a wide variety of classes. Not just small, cheap cars.
You hit it on the head. Toyota uses the same defective parts across the board. From a $15k Corolla to a $60k Sequoia. Instead of an isolated problem within one or two models it is a big share of their fleet. That adds up to 7.49 million recall notices to be sent out over the last 2 months.
Sean Kane, director of Safety Research and Strategies, a consumer group that conducts research into motor vehicle safety issues, said his firm has identified 2,274 incidents of sudden unintended acceleration in Toyota vehicles leading to at least 275 crashes and 18 deaths since 1999.
I'm still catching up with posts, so if someone has already commented, my apologies.
This group of ambulance chasers which has only one engineer on its staff (not Mr. Kane) is not to be trusted. These counts undoubtedly include all cases where unintended acceleration is claimed, including incidents where people may have stepped on the wrong pedal. As we know, despite the latest round of hysteria, a goodly proportion of sudden acceleration incidents in the past were ultimately determined to have been driver-caused. This problem is an elusive one that has bedeviled NHTSA and all major carmakers for more than 25 years.
This in no way takes away from Toyota's responsibility to fix the mechanical issues in the cars now subject to recall or production stoppage.
I love my removable top, I believe it could fly:-) But back to Toyota problem. I don't understand why Toyota didn't acknowledge the problem at first and gives lots of BS about it
This I think is a bad marketing move on GM's part. If you'll remember last year when GM was all but dead and dying on the doorstep of the Federal Government Toyota did not go after fearful GM owners worried about their vehicles and their long term prospects. In fact Toyota was supportive of GM and the Federal Government's decision to turn GM into Government Motors.
This smacks of short term gain of a few units but long term loss when the issue blows over. GMs is a child in the ring versus the heavyweight champ, Toyota, when it comes to the of marketing of vehicles.
With the new direction of Toyota ( c.f. NAIAS presentation ) and it's 10 yr headstart in hybrid technology I can definitely see Toyota pummelling Government Motors in the market for being so far behind the curve in providing fuel efficient technology that the general public can actually buy. See gas go to $3.50 or $4.50 or $5.50 again and I can see Toyota blasting Government Motors for not being ready for change while living still in the 20th Century.
Stick your finger in the eye of hurt bear at your own risk.
Toyota uses the same defective parts across the board.
This is common manufacturing practice these days for all major automakers. Look no further than the defective cruise control switch that was installed in millions of Fords (and killed some people in fires).
Those gloating over Toyota's troubles should take a cautionary view, because there's no guarantee that such a fate will not affect another manufacturer in the future. I for one won't be jumping on anyone's grave if that happens.
Not being involved, speculation here, I'd guess that there was no engineering proof of any specific cause within the complaints that were being filed with Toyota and the NHTSA. Faulty All Weather mats were definitely the cause of some incidents. Driver error? Possibly in some cases. Outright fabrications? Possibly in some cases.
In addition in this accelerator pedal case the cause seems to be 'wear over time'. So it takes time for this cause to be encountered and even more time for it to be identified. It can't be identified on the line, the vehicle has to be driven for a good while for this wearing to become known. In some vehicles even with the same pedal assembly that wearing may never be encountered.
In addition one of the ways to identify potential causes of errors is to develop a statistical database to determine if there are common characteristics in all the reports of incidents. It's done by VIN and production sequence. It must have a significant number of data points in order to show the investigators where to look. It takes time to develop this database, it depends solely on the operators reporting their complaints. To be statistically valid there has to be enough data points to show a trend. One or two reports can point in opposite directions. 100 reports can point to every direction on the compass. But after enough reports one might very well see that 'Hey none of these reports that seem valid involve vehicles made in Japan!!!' Now the focus can be sharpened to N American plants.
Then the data gets reanalyzed and reanalyzed over and over again and the focus becomes sharper and sharper. But all this takes time.
I don't buy into the conspiracy implications of that article, but Congressional hearings on the matter strike me as simply an opportunity for political posturing.
Also, there is a misunderstanding that this is a "forced" recall. It isn't. NHTSA can't force a recall by fiat. There has to be a formal defect investigation with the NHTSA staff concluding a defect exists. Then the NHTSA administrator and I believe the Secretary of the DOT have to sign off. Even then, the manufacturer can appeal to the federal courts.
There have only been a dozen or so forced recalls in NHTSA's 40+ year history. The last attempted one was in the early 80s, which GM fought in court and prevailed (for the overly "aggressive" rear brakes in the 1980 X cars).
NHTSA can and has persuaded manufactureres to recall their vehicles, in which case the recall is considered "voluntary."
In this particular case when NHTSA "ordered" a recall and production stoppage, Toyota had (and has) the legal right to say "make me." Obviously, Toyota chose to do the right thing instead.
In the long view... I rather see a valid technical issue and a proper process taking place to solve that issue....and a lot of gloating and piling on taking place.
Nothing new to see here, business is an ugly, dirty endeavor with its goal to kill the other guy and steal his money.
LaHood is a clown and an attention-hound that like Lutz needs to have a muzzle put on before being let out into the public. To wit...
This is common manufacturing practice these days for all major automakers.
I am sure your are right. It sounds like Ford uses the CTS throttle part in the Chinese trucks. To my way of thinking a part that is going to be used in several models and especially the top selling models should get a much higher level of testing. Though I think the real problem is yet to be determined. CTS claims it is NOT their problem.
CTS became a pedal supplier in 2005. Accordingly, our products are not implicated by the November 2009 recall. The products we supply to Toyota, including the pedals covered by the recent recall, have been manufactured to Toyota’s design specifications.
kdh, pleaseconsider to refrain from using lewd terminology here? Moderators please consider remove all posts which use terminology describing sexual acts, including #4519. many tv/radio hosts find it appropriate to use the lewd "tea" term, but surely it is prohibited here to use it? A non-lewd terminology to consider to use instead is "tea party people".
With eight models, including some of its top-selling Camry sedans, sitting in dealer lots unable to be sold, the costs to Toyota rise every day a fix isn't ready. One analyst said Toyota could lose 20,000 sales if the order lasts a week.
Silver lining time.
This didn't occur in the hot-selling months of May through August, January and February are traditionally two of the slowest months of the year. People just don't go shopping - until after President's Day weekend. Now there's a date to keep in mind.
But I like the visual that the term 'tea bagger' connotes. Now if we were in the 50s then one might say that I was promoting the usage of a quasi-illegal substance such as the coded addition of '420' to the end of my nick herein today.
From your Link: U.S. Rep. Bart Stupak, chairman of a House Energy and Commerce subcommittee for investigations, has called Toyota to testify Feb. 25 about the company's two recalls.
In a statement, Stupak, a Menominee Democrat, said federal data showed that 19 deaths had been linked to sudden acceleration complaints in Toyotas over the past several years, more than all other automakers combined for the period. Stupak and committee members met with Toyota on Wednesday to review its handling of the cases, but left with questions.
"Failure to take every step possible to prevent future deaths or injury is simply unacceptable," Stupak said. "Our hearing will press for answers about the source of this accelerator defect and investigate whether adequate measures have been taken."
As I posted before this all came down. I think it is Obama and his Czars trying to save face on several levels. The C4C debacle that favored Toyota's line of economy cars. The push by the UAW to revive Government Motors. And just plain old Chicago Thug politics. Remember the row caused in November when Toyota announced that the NHTSA had given them a clean bill of health by recalling the floor mats. In the anti capitalism society we are evolving into, Toyota is the enemy.
Look for a Czar to be appointed as watch dog over Toyota.
- The automaker knew of a dangerous steering defect in vehicles including the 4Runner sport utility vehicle for years before issuing a recall in Japan in 2004. But it told regulators no recall was necessary in the U.S., despite having received dozens of complaints from drivers. Toyota said a subsequent investigation led it to order a U.S. recall in 2005.
- Toyota has paid cash settlements to people who say their vehicles have raced out of control, sometimes causing serious accidents, according to consumers and their attorneys. Other motorists who complained of acceleration problems with their vehicles have received buybacks under lemon laws.
- Although the sudden acceleration issue erupted publicly only in recent months, it has been festering for nearly a decade. A computerized search of NHTSA records by The Times has found Toyota issued eight previous recalls related to unintended acceleration since 2000, more than any other automaker.
- A former Toyota lawyer who handled safety litigation has sued the automaker, accusing it of engaging in a "calculated conspiracy to prevent the disclosure of damaging evidence" as part of a scheme to "prevent evidence of its vehicles' structural shortcomings from becoming known" to plaintiffs lawyers, courts, NHTSA and the public.
Is this from the month-old LA Times story? We've discussed this questionable article many times.
I'm supposed to be working but on that last item about the former Toyota lawyer (with the ironic surname of "Biller"), the prosecutor who looked at Biller's "evidence" decided there was nothing of merit to warrant a grand jury investigation.
I dont own or drive a Toyota but have a question. Do the eight recalled cars use gated shifters? I drove a Hyundai with one didnt like it, to much messing around to get the thing from park to drive and vice versa.
I could just imagine, if this happened in this car how long it would take to find N.
but, look at how well Ford is doing right now, even after the Pinto debacle, Exploder problems, etc. Regardless of their reaction to those problems and the action or lack of action they took to remedy those problems, the public has a decent view of Ford in the U.S. right now.
Agree with most of your post. We are agreeing that if Toyota fesses up and makes a quick fix they should be ok. If it turns up that they were deceptive for years and knew about it and there were lawyers in Toyota saying it would be cheaper to let a few people die (like Ford did with the Pinto) then they will be in bad shape. But that's not likely to happen.
I think one of the reasons Ford is looking good is not only are the products really improving, their reliability is the best of the domestics and almost equal of many Japanese brands, they also have done it without TARP money. So the public is rewarding a domestic company who not only is coming out with better products and better reliability, but we (U.S. public) have not been screwed by them in the process. I mean, look at what we have to compare to in the other domestic makers. :lemon: Ford is just farther along the road to recovery than any of them.
I don't know if all use gated shifters now, but Toyota (like other carmakers) are moving in that direction. Both the current Camry and Corolla have them.
I hate them personally -- my older Camrys have the "straight through" shifters. Even better, my Nissan Frontier has a manual transmission.
Well, that may be but as you said in your previous post it's how it effects you personally. I have a Highlander coming off lease soon and the $1000 lease payoff will close it for me and the $1000 rebate coupled with a $3000 GM card top off makes it quite enticing for me. However after just talking to the Chevy dealer the Equinox and Camaro aren't included in the offer. Oh well, so GM loses me again.
Last paragraph: We appreciate the comments that Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood made today about the way Toyota has stepped up to meet our responsibilities to our customers, and we are determined to continue fulfilling our commitment to put our customers first.
U.S. Rep. Bart Stupak, chairman of a House Energy and Commerce subcommittee for investigations, has called Toyota to testify Feb. 25 about the company's two recalls.
In a statement, Stupak, a Menominee Democrat, said federal data showed that 19 deaths had been linked to sudden acceleration complaints in Toyotas over the past several years, more than all other automakers combined for the period.
This is the same Stupak that gummed up the health care bill during the legislative process. Looks like he's buying into the Sean Kane's ambulance chasers on the number of alleged deaths, with no evidence as to whether these were caused by tangled floor mats, sticky pedals, driver error, or other issues.
I think the terminology has to be viewed in context (ergo, Andre's missing post) and the term means a politically orientated group of folks to most people. NPR had no clue for example.
I think the new Ford Fusion is actually better than the Camry and Accord in reliability studies. Ford has some highly rated small cars due to arrive in a year or so like the Focus and Fiesta. If their reliability is as good as the Fusion than IMHO Toyota needs to pay close attention to what Ford is doing right. On another note I am quite surprised there aren't more Ford fans on these Edmund's forums. I know we have many GM fans which is all good and well.
They are all waiting for the new Fords to show up. And while they wait they are either stuck with failing products or taking the bus. :-) So no time to post LOL
Got one here although like myself I find with many other Ford fans, we aren't so closed minded to to other brands.
that other company... that is being discussed tends to have a lot more diehards than anyone else. It's _______ or nothing. Almost as arrogant as the companies execs. :P LOL, check out C&G or GMI sometime. Brutal.
Got one here although like myself I find with many other Ford fans, we aren't so closed minded to other brands.
+1
Another possibility is the Ford fans stay on the Ford boards, not trolling in Toyota forums looking to put down the brand. I myself look at only the "generic" GM threads, not the model specific ones.
Not Toyota-related, but this sheds some light on the guy's thinking. (He had to have approved the following.) This is in response to an IIHS/HLDI finding that handheld cell phone bans haven't led to a drop in real-world collisions. All other news sources I could find did not question the validity of the study. The IIHS itself is scratching its head over the findings, but to use the cliche du jour, "it is what it is."
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration January 29, 2010 STATEMENT Re: llHS/HLDI study of cell phone laws
It is irresponsible to suggest that laws banning cell phone use while driving have zero effect on the number of crashes on our nation's roadways. A University of Utah study shows that using a cell phone while driving can be just as dangerous and deadly as driving drunk.
We know that by enacting and enforcing tough laws, states have reduced the number of crashes leading to injuries and fatalities.
We know that high visibility campaigns and enforcement, like Click It or Ticket and Drunk Driving. Over The Limit. Under Arrest has had a positive influence on ' driver behavior.
That's why seat belt use is at an all time high of 84 percent and drunk driving is declining.
These improvements didn't happen overnight. It took strong laws, enforcement, education and personal responsibility to bring us where we are today, and still there is more work to do.
When it comes to distracted driving, we are only at the starting gate.
is doing a much better job than GM or Chrysler. In addition, they didn't STEAL taxpayer money to keep afloat.
That's a big deal, and really important to many people out there.
However, I think it's a big assumption to assume there are many Ford fans out there. I've always heard the Mustang referred to as GUTLESS by people I know. So what has Ford ever done to deserve "fans?"
GM at least has the Corvette and Camaro (though the latter is probably less deserving of fans).
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
In my experience Ford is the polar opposite of Government Motors and it rolls off onto their fans. Sure there will be the diehard F-series crew who have it out for the Tundra owners and I won't deny there are a few Ford guys who will knock imports on a daily basis. But generally I see Ford to be a more low key operation, just chugging along, going about business. Not all the time, there are the ads claiming superiority like the Fusion hybrid vs the Prius or the seeF-150 vs well, everybody :shades: but compared to Howie Long in the ads or Putz the blowhard behind the podium, or even Dick Wagger claiming product superiority in the midst of bankruptcy, Ford has way more class. I have a ton of respect for Mullaly, he is making all the right decisions but you don't really hear a peep out of him otherwise. Never heard him make the typical excuse either of "It's the customers fault they don't like our stuff , it's the media it's the spacealiens form planet wackytibacky , blah blah blah.
Although, I did read that Ford is launching their own incentives to lure in disgruntled Toyo owners :mad: which imo is a cheapshot that reeks of desperation, clearly something Ford doesn't have to pursue.
But then again they aren't the ones sucking off the Governments whosamajiggy or the unwilling taxpayers for survival so it's not a case of "Pot meet Kettle" like that other company...
I wonder if part of the fan mentality might come from the fact that GM was #1 for decades, and usually by a wide margin. In contrast Ford was always runner up and had to take that Avis "We're #2, so We Try Harder" mentality. As for Chrysler, well they usually get themselves in trouble about every 10 years anyway, so there are times that it's hard to be a Chrysler fanatic.
"Turns out there's a small problem with the window motors on what we know as the Honda Fit in the U.S. Under harsh weather conditions, water can seep into the window compartment and cause damage to the main wiper switch. The switch then becomes susceptible to fire from overheating."
Comments
I have never owned a Toyota and have had little to no desire to own one since cars like the Supra and Celica. Sure, there have been various test drives and even a close purchase of a current generation RAV4 V6 (fantastic engine, nimble chassis, spartan interior) and for a while I yearned for a 6-spd IS250 (even had my name on the waiting list when they first came out) but Toyota has never found that sweet spot for me which is the fun-to-drive facter. Lexus? Sure, maybe for my wife if she wanted one :shades:
But as someone else pointed out on these boards, we are boardering on hysteria here. Jeeze, if your afraid of your car, bring it to the dealer for petes sake. Fix it and be done with it, drive on for 200 - 300 thousand miles like every other Toyota product out there.
I feel bad for the people who are going to over-react to this and fall for the onslaught of anti-Toyota (anti-foriegn anything for that matter) vendetta that is plaguing boards like Edmunds and give into the wolves at the dealership who now have the distinct scent of blood. Be prepared to get taken is all I can say to that.
Again, I drive 30 thousand miles a year for work and 1 out of every 5 or so vehicles I see are Toyota products. I have yet to see one of these "out of Control" Christine's threatening my life on the freeway. I work and know plenty of people who own Toyota products and there is no hysteria at all. The ones I've talked with about this agree that if the gas pedal is going to stick, it will be a gradual process, not instantaneous.
But whatever, like British Rover pointed out, look in the closets of any major automaker and you will find skeletons. A couple of good years of solid product will right the ship and steer it clear of the iceberg. :shades:
Tho I'd stay away from the ones with the removable tops as they might decide to detach on their own... :P
Yes the Pinto was 30+ years ago but the Pinto disaster didn't cause Ford's fall in marketshare, in fact after the Pinto problem Ford in the 90s went on an ungodly profit tear with all the SUVs and trucks printing money faster than they could spend it.
But it was these very SUVs and trucks, actually the over dependence on them and the marketing decision not to pay much attention to the subtle shift toward more fuel efficient vehicles, that caused Ford ( +GM +C ) to lose 50% of their marketshare.
After the Pinto Ford made more money than it made before the Pinto. There is nothing logical that can be determined from that event....except that the American public is concerned first and foremost about itself above all else. An owner's own personal situation and experience is far more important over and above all the hysteria, all the dire threats of imminent demise and all the rantings by the group of anti-fans. This is inconcievable to the prophets of doom herein.
"How can the public ignore all these events? Aren't they filled with hatred toward Toyota like I am? Don't they see? Don't they understand?"
The point that these prophets cannot understand is that everyone of us individuals is basically self-centered. If we are satisfied and feel secure in our own decisions then we don't care one bit what you or anyone else thinks. We're watching out first and foremost for No 1, ourselves. The reality is that 99.9+% of current Toyota owners have experienced nothing of these issues and are not likely to experience anything like it either. The long view, c.f. Pinto, Exploder, Dexcool, sludge, on and on and on, is that if it doesn't happen to me then it never happened. It's someone else's bad luck.
From your current and prior posts I'd clearly expect to find you in the anti-T group so your position now is not surprsing. Life goes on.
I think the advantage that Ford had with the Pinto, and this could apply to Chevy with the Vega, is that the problems didn't necessarily stop people from buying Fords (or Chevies) It just stopped them from buying Pintos (and Vegas). And even then, in final-year 1980, Ford managed to move about 165,000 Pintos, a sales figure that would probably make it a top-ten selling vehicle in 2009.
In those days, people had sort of a disconnect between economy cars and the rest of the fleet. They expected their Pintos, Vegas, etc to be cheap, and have shortcomings, even dangerous ones, that you just put up with. If you got stuck with a crappy Pinto and complained about it, people probably would say "told you so, you should've bought a Maverick, Granada, Fairmont, etc", "you get what you pay for", etc.
These days though, people expect all cars, even small cheap ones, to be good. And unfortunately for Toyota, this acceleration problem seems to be hitting a wide variety of classes. Not just small, cheap cars.
Your examples of the Pinto and the Vega were truly horrible vehicles in so many ways. These current issues however are limited to a miniscule number of possible occurances in a very limited scope of operation. Otherwise the vehicles are wonderful just as all the rest of today's vehicles are.
There's a recall for mats and 'pedal shaping' on my Prius and on my wife's Highlander. We both love both vehicles and we are NOT going to have anything done to either vehicle under this bogus recall. We will buy another Toyota when the time comes. She's already decided on a Tacoma DoubleCab 4WD and when I reach 275,000 miles or so I'll get another Prius. Our own personal experiences far outweigh anyone else's view or potential bad luck. The long view? Life goes on as before.
You hit it on the head. Toyota uses the same defective parts across the board. From a $15k Corolla to a $60k Sequoia. Instead of an isolated problem within one or two models it is a big share of their fleet. That adds up to 7.49 million recall notices to be sent out over the last 2 months.
I'm still catching up with posts, so if someone has already commented, my apologies.
This group of ambulance chasers which has only one engineer on its staff (not Mr. Kane) is not to be trusted. These counts undoubtedly include all cases where unintended acceleration is claimed, including incidents where people may have stepped on the wrong pedal. As we know, despite the latest round of hysteria, a goodly proportion of sudden acceleration incidents in the past were ultimately determined to have been driver-caused. This problem is an elusive one that has bedeviled NHTSA and all major carmakers for more than 25 years.
This in no way takes away from Toyota's responsibility to fix the mechanical issues in the cars now subject to recall or production stoppage.
This smacks of short term gain of a few units but long term loss when the issue blows over. GMs is a child in the ring versus the heavyweight champ, Toyota, when it comes to the of marketing of vehicles.
With the new direction of Toyota ( c.f. NAIAS presentation ) and it's 10 yr headstart in hybrid technology I can definitely see Toyota pummelling Government Motors in the market for being so far behind the curve in providing fuel efficient technology that the general public can actually buy. See gas go to $3.50 or $4.50 or $5.50 again and I can see Toyota blasting Government Motors for not being ready for change while living still in the 20th Century.
Stick your finger in the eye of hurt bear at your own risk.
This is common manufacturing practice these days for all major automakers. Look no further than the defective cruise control switch that was installed in millions of Fords (and killed some people in fires).
Those gloating over Toyota's troubles should take a cautionary view, because there's no guarantee that such a fate will not affect another manufacturer in the future. I for one won't be jumping on anyone's grave if that happens.
link title
In addition in this accelerator pedal case the cause seems to be 'wear over time'. So it takes time for this cause to be encountered and even more time for it to be identified. It can't be identified on the line, the vehicle has to be driven for a good while for this wearing to become known. In some vehicles even with the same pedal assembly that wearing may never be encountered.
In addition one of the ways to identify potential causes of errors is to develop a statistical database to determine if there are common characteristics in all the reports of incidents. It's done by VIN and production sequence. It must have a significant number of data points in order to show the investigators where to look. It takes time to develop this database, it depends solely on the operators reporting their complaints. To be statistically valid there has to be enough data points to show a trend. One or two reports can point in opposite directions. 100 reports can point to every direction on the compass. But after enough reports one might very well see that 'Hey none of these reports that seem valid involve vehicles made in Japan!!!' Now the focus can be sharpened to N American plants.
Then the data gets reanalyzed and reanalyzed over and over again and the focus becomes sharper and sharper. But all this takes time.
link title
Also, there is a misunderstanding that this is a "forced" recall. It isn't. NHTSA can't force a recall by fiat. There has to be a formal defect investigation with the NHTSA staff concluding a defect exists. Then the NHTSA administrator and I believe the Secretary of the DOT have to sign off. Even then, the manufacturer can appeal to the federal courts.
There have only been a dozen or so forced recalls in NHTSA's 40+ year history. The last attempted one was in the early 80s, which GM fought in court and prevailed (for the overly "aggressive" rear brakes in the 1980 X cars).
NHTSA can and has persuaded manufactureres to recall their vehicles, in which case the recall is considered "voluntary."
In this particular case when NHTSA "ordered" a recall and production stoppage, Toyota had (and has) the legal right to say "make me." Obviously, Toyota chose to do the right thing instead.
Nothing new to see here, business is an ugly, dirty endeavor with its goal to kill the other guy and steal his money.
LaHood is a clown and an attention-hound that like Lutz needs to have a muzzle put on before being let out into the public. To wit...
LaHood Proposes Flawed Mileage Tax; Administration Spokesmen Shoot It Down
I am sure your are right. It sounds like Ford uses the CTS throttle part in the Chinese trucks. To my way of thinking a part that is going to be used in several models and especially the top selling models should get a much higher level of testing. Though I think the real problem is yet to be determined. CTS claims it is NOT their problem.
CTS became a pedal supplier in 2005. Accordingly, our products are not implicated by the November 2009 recall. The products we supply to Toyota, including the pedals covered by the recent recall, have been manufactured to Toyota’s design specifications.
Moderators please consider remove all posts which use terminology describing sexual acts, including #4519.
many tv/radio hosts find it appropriate to use the lewd "tea" term, but surely it is prohibited here to use it?
A non-lewd terminology to consider to use instead is "tea party people".
With eight models, including some of its top-selling Camry sedans, sitting in dealer lots unable to be sold, the costs to Toyota rise every day a fix isn't ready. One analyst said Toyota could lose 20,000 sales if the order lasts a week.
Silver lining time.
This didn't occur in the hot-selling months of May through August, January and February are traditionally two of the slowest months of the year. People just don't go shopping - until after President's Day weekend. Now there's a date to keep in mind.
But that isn't the case at all.
U.S. Rep. Bart Stupak, chairman of a House Energy and Commerce subcommittee for investigations, has called Toyota to testify Feb. 25 about the company's two recalls.
In a statement, Stupak, a Menominee Democrat, said federal data showed that 19 deaths had been linked to sudden acceleration complaints in Toyotas over the past several years, more than all other automakers combined for the period. Stupak and committee members met with Toyota on Wednesday to review its handling of the cases, but left with questions.
"Failure to take every step possible to prevent future deaths or injury is simply unacceptable," Stupak said. "Our hearing will press for answers about the source of this accelerator defect and investigate whether adequate measures have been taken."
As I posted before this all came down. I think it is Obama and his Czars trying to save face on several levels. The C4C debacle that favored Toyota's line of economy cars. The push by the UAW to revive Government Motors. And just plain old Chicago Thug politics. Remember the row caused in November when Toyota announced that the NHTSA had given them a clean bill of health by recalling the floor mats. In the anti capitalism society we are evolving into, Toyota is the enemy.
Look for a Czar to be appointed as watch dog over Toyota.
- Toyota has paid cash settlements to people who say their vehicles have raced out of control, sometimes causing serious accidents, according to consumers and their attorneys. Other motorists who complained of acceleration problems with their vehicles have received buybacks under lemon laws.
- Although the sudden acceleration issue erupted publicly only in recent months, it has been festering for nearly a decade. A computerized search of NHTSA records by The Times has found Toyota issued eight previous recalls related to unintended acceleration since 2000, more than any other automaker.
- A former Toyota lawyer who handled safety litigation has sued the automaker, accusing it of engaging in a "calculated conspiracy to prevent the disclosure of damaging evidence" as part of a scheme to "prevent evidence of its vehicles' structural shortcomings from becoming known" to plaintiffs lawyers, courts, NHTSA and the public.
Edit: I just noticed your follow-up winks.
Good one BTW, Andre!
I'm supposed to be working but on that last item about the former Toyota lawyer (with the ironic surname of "Biller"), the prosecutor who looked at Biller's "evidence" decided there was nothing of merit to warrant a grand jury investigation.
Have you unloaded your Toyota yet?
I could just imagine, if this happened in this car how long it would take to find N.
Do any/all Toyotas use gated shifters?
Agree with most of your post. We are agreeing that if Toyota fesses up and makes a quick fix they should be ok. If it turns up that they were deceptive for years and knew about it and there were lawyers in Toyota saying it would be cheaper to let a few people die (like Ford did with the Pinto) then they will be in bad shape. But that's not likely to happen.
I think one of the reasons Ford is looking good is not only are the products really improving, their reliability is the best of the domestics and almost equal of many Japanese brands, they also have done it without TARP money. So the public is rewarding a domestic company who not only is coming out with better products and better reliability, but we (U.S. public) have not been screwed by them in the process. I mean, look at what we have to compare to in the other domestic makers. :lemon: Ford is just farther along the road to recovery than any of them.
I hate them personally -- my older Camrys have the "straight through" shifters. Even better, my Nissan Frontier has a manual transmission.
However after just talking to the Chevy dealer the Equinox and Camaro aren't included in the offer. Oh well, so GM loses me again.
Here's the latest from Toyota.
Last paragraph: We appreciate the comments that Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood made today about the way Toyota has stepped up to meet our responsibilities to our customers, and we are determined to continue fulfilling our commitment to put our customers first.
In a statement, Stupak, a Menominee Democrat, said federal data showed that 19 deaths had been linked to sudden acceleration complaints in Toyotas over the past several years, more than all other automakers combined for the period.
This is the same Stupak that gummed up the health care bill during the legislative process. Looks like he's buying into the Sean Kane's ambulance chasers on the number of alleged deaths, with no evidence as to whether these were caused by tangled floor mats, sticky pedals, driver error, or other issues.
The forum would be a lot thinner if we had to remove stuff like Toyota FJ Cruiser or Hummer H3.
January Car Sales: Toyota Share Plummets to Lowest Since 2006 (AutoObserver)
On another note I am quite surprised there aren't more Ford fans on these Edmund's forums. I know we have many GM fans which is all good and well.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
that other company... that is being discussed tends to have a lot more diehards than anyone else. It's _______ or nothing. Almost as arrogant as the companies execs. :P LOL, check out C&G or GMI sometime. Brutal.
+1
Another possibility is the Ford fans stay on the Ford boards, not trolling in Toyota forums looking to put down the brand. I myself look at only the "generic" GM threads, not the model specific ones.
I would suggest trying the Ford Forums :shades:
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
January 29, 2010
STATEMENT
Re: llHS/HLDI study of cell phone laws
It is irresponsible to suggest that laws banning cell phone use while driving have zero effect on the number of crashes on our nation's roadways. A University of Utah study shows that using a cell phone while driving can be just as dangerous and deadly as driving drunk.
We know that by enacting and enforcing tough laws, states have reduced the number of crashes leading to injuries and fatalities.
We know that high visibility campaigns and enforcement, like Click It or Ticket and Drunk Driving. Over The Limit. Under Arrest has had a positive influence on ' driver behavior.
That's why seat belt use is at an all time high of 84 percent and drunk driving is declining.
These improvements didn't happen overnight. It took strong laws, enforcement, education and personal responsibility to bring us where we are today, and still there is more work to do.
When it comes to distracted driving, we are only at the starting gate.
That's a big deal, and really important to many people out there.
However, I think it's a big assumption to assume there are many Ford fans out there. I've always heard the Mustang referred to as GUTLESS by people I know. So what has Ford ever done to deserve "fans?"
GM at least has the Corvette and Camaro (though the latter is probably less deserving of fans).
Although, I did read that Ford is launching their own incentives to lure in disgruntled Toyo owners :mad: which imo is a cheapshot that reeks of desperation, clearly something Ford doesn't have to pursue.
But then again they aren't the ones sucking off the Governments whosamajiggy or the unwilling taxpayers for survival so it's not a case of "Pot meet Kettle" like that other company...
Honda recalls 646,000 Jazz/Fit, City cars globally (Inside Line)
Ford's Conquest incentive already covered Hondas. Maybe GM will expand their Toyota one now.