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Comments
And the one thing that should be pointed out is that the companies that do the recalls....Kudos to them!
It seems that when a recall comes out everyone is quick to say "what a piece of crap"
Noooooooo! what a great company for actually standing behind their mistake.
GM and Ford have been so big for so long (GM IN PARTICULAR) that they have so much money to hide, sweep under the rug any problems until someone dies. Or many people die!
I believe that Toyota's ego was starting to resemble GM of the past and they are paying the penalty now!
Maybe this whole fiasco will make the auto industry more accountable to all the crap that is allowed to go on and on. WITH ALL AUTOMAKERS!
MB went to hell right around when they acquired the infection and plague known as Chrysler. Coincidence, I think not. This was a case of the weak taking down the strong. The strong was not strong enough to help the weak, as the culture at Chrysler was far too deplorable.
I understood you were saying that some certain information here is "garbage."
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I do believe there's more back slapping among politicians, congratulating themselves on, I guess, finding enough people to get them elected. I know there's not enough people I could count on to vote for me as dog catcher. So, maybe their self worth is much higher among their peers than the general public who put them in office.
LaHood seemed to me to have higher goals than to just answer questions. He stated over and over again that safety is NHTSA's highest goal. If you believe strongly in your position, I have no problem in being combative.
Lentz? Well, I'm not sure what his goal was, except to sidestep as many questions as he could. He sure didn't seem to be passionate about his company, nor confident in his testimony. I got the overall feeling all he was there to do was to cover his posterior.
Said it before, if that's the way Lentz really is, I don't expect him to be employed by Toyota much longer.
He's holding up the Denso pedal and saying it's in the cars which have had fatalities. Then he held up the CTS pedal saying it has sticking problems, but not fatalities.
The attorney interpreting for Toyoda is reading from papers. Did they have questions in advance so she could write answers for them?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I'm thinking it's the male.
Mr. Inaba is getting hammered over the "saved millions" memo.
What did I miss? Inaba is the President of Toyota America? I thought it was Lentz? He's listed as the President and COO of America, too. Who the hell's in charge?
When I worked at Honda all of the American Managers and Executives had Japanese counterparts. Maybe Toyota is set up the same way????
The last actual news report, that I heard about 6 months ago said that Toyota was in 1st, Ford 2nd and Honda 3rd. But then a few days later I read in a newspaper that GM was still in the lead......
GM had been the No. 1 auto maker in the world for 70 years. Toyota made to the No. 1 spot in 2008 then lost it to VW in 2009.
Let me quote the honorable represenative from Kentucky that just spoke minutes ago at the hearing:
"Careless words and unfounded allegations by some"
Mr. Toyoda is also very keen on, and repeating that some of the "events" cannot be reproduced or duplicated. It was also interesting that he made reference to the common sense fact that motorist mistake and error (accident) does occur.
So you are going to say the unintended accelerations, 70%, don't occur.
Jeff Davis has the North American headquarters for Engineering and Manufacturing North American, TEMA, in his district in Northern Kentucky (Erlanger). I think it's very poor taste on his part to recite the line. I suspect he'll be interviewed tomorrow or soon on a morning talk show Cincinnati radio and he'll be asked about that.
Do you have any proof that the UA are due to driver error? Lots of interviewers and even the toyota Lentz admit that many of them weren't explained by mats and pedals sticking.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
First, the KY rep has Toyota as the biggest employer in his district. It employs the people who vote for him. He's not going to say anything to endanger that relationship. Further, he's going to be their biggest cheerleader for those same reasons. He's going to be very biased.
Further, I've missed a good part of Mr Toyoda's testimony. But, based on what I did hear, he's stating the same thing as we've heard over and over in the past. That is, "we'll only commit to floormats and sticky pedals. We discount any other research (and testimony from Prof Gilbert) that proves otherwise."
Even more telling was whomever asked whether Toyota would cover the medical and funeral expenses of those who were injured or died due to the UA of their vehicles. Mr Toyoda said his legal dept would look at it.
Here's a hint Mr Toyoda...all of your apologies were just wiped out. The correct answer should have been...."of course we will".
Again, only heard a smidgeon of the testimony, but I can already tell that Toyota is going to be hit with a huge fine....no doubt a record breaker. They're going to be forced to cover medial and funeral expenses. NHTSA will probably get more people just to watch Toyota.....like a hawk. The recall is going to get bigger, much bigger, after NHTSA finishes their investigation and forces them to recall all the vehicles to at least install brake over ride, could be every model as far back as 2001.
Good information about how brake over-ride may be designed to allow pushing the gas and using the brake to hold you back on a steep upslope. However, I don't think owners of future Toyotas with brake over-ride should rest easy until they have tested that the maneuver of using the brake and pushing the gas gently can be safely done on a steep upslope with their Toyotas. The fact that other auto companies have relatively reliable DBW system in their vehicles doesn't mean Toyota owners should rest easy that the DBW in their Toyotas must be OK, neither should owners of Toyotas with brake over-ride rest easy just because Audi has a well-designed brake over-ride.
It was not formed through chemical interactions and was not caused by poor maintenance. It had nothing to do with ash content, soot, or moisture. Moreover it formed from pyrolization of the organic fractions remaining in the base oil from the refining process.
The oil mist generated by the moving parts smoked off on contact with excessively hot surfaces within the crankcase and rose within the engine internals to condense as bitumen on cooler internal surfaces (e.g. cam cover and timing chain cover, and that which passed through the PCV valve condensed on the inner surfaces of the inlet manifold and that found its way down to coke up the inlet valves). It had nothing to do with the efficacy of the PCV system or any other contaminants.
One of the tests I did with thermo couples showed that a thin film of the oil I was using will smoke off a 140 degrees Celsius metal surface. (This is not the same as Flash Point). Bearing in mind that the usual coolant mix under pressurization can reach more than 130 degrees Celsius without boiling, it doesn't take much for the internals of the crankcase to exceed 140 Degrees under some operating conditions if the cooling system and temperature sensing system isn't up to the job and allows heat soak build up without temp gauge indication.
As it turns out, the evidence overwhelmingly and irrefutably shows that the block has been operating at excessive temperatures because the cooling system cannot transfer the full potential heat load up via the cylinder head through the thermostat and radiator for cooling.
The mass and surface areas of the aluminium cylinder head, cam cover and inlet manifold do a magnificent job of dissipating the heat they receive so the thermostat and bypass system stay nicely in equilibrium. Accordingly, the temperature sensing system gauge never varies from central despite the raging heat soak accumulation in the block below. Ergo, everything seems rosy to the driver and yet inside the engine can be dense clouds of smoke rising to condense as bitumen.
It didn't take me long to find that this seems to be a widely present phenomena in a a range of manufacturers' engines (but not all).
Based on the evidence, faulty cooling system design and manufacture is key to the problem as it affected me. And I reckon like problems underpin the scourge of so called "sludge" affecting many engine types.
In mine,
a. Coolant flow is severely restricted by inadequate porting through the head gasket. The sum of the areas of all of the gasket flow ports is less than the area of the pump output throat. Furthermore, the surface friction effect of all of the small holes through the gasket compared to that of the pump output throat, is about 4:1 against the flow. Hence the action of the pump is severely hampered and cavitation is inevitable (plenty of physical evidence of cavitation). and also;
b. the outflow ducting from the pump and its interface with the port into the block, have a number of significant sharp edge protrusions interfering with the path of the coolant flow. Cavitation and major bubble formation is thus further exacerbated.
To make matters worse, the occurrence of bitumen is cumulative and cannot be removed by any amount of routine servicing or flushing without removal of the sump.
The problem here is defective design. The sump drain plug is positioned well above the lowest point. Thus the sump cannot be properly drained. Interestingly, the oil; uptake draws right from the very bottom of the sump (witness marks on the bottom of the sump and careful measurements prove this to be the case. So when heated, the bitumen accumulation is circulated through the lubricating system.
Some observations.....
Was unimpressed with Lentz. For a guy who's supposed to be the Chief Operating Officer and President of Toyota U.S.A., he certainly came off as not knowing diddly squat. Is he really that ignorant having risen to be the "main guy" in Toyota's largest market? I don't believe it. While it's tragic that Lentz's brother perished in a car crash, I couldn't help but think that Lentz's tearful testimony was planned. And, used to elicit sympathy, more than anything else. It was almost comical to hear him try to differentiate "unintended acceleration" and "sudden unintended acceleration". Although, he did bring up the fact that Toyota's cruise controls may have an issue, too. I think that was a slip up on his part, however. The last thing he wants is to give NHTSA yet another issue to investigate.
As badly as Congress hammered Inaba (he's also the President and COO of Toyota in this country? What's up with that?), I think he at least withstood the barrage and at least didn't try to duck the questions. Didn't get many answers from him. But, he didn't shy away.
My Toyoda......again, more posturing with the translator present. Partial education (MBA) came from a U.S. school, allegedly can't speak English well enough not to warrant a translator. I don't buy that. Overall, didn't say much of anything different than what we heard from Lentz....with fewer "I don't knows" than Lentz. That is, we did the recall for floormats and "sticky pedals" but only after they were forced to by NHTSA. Looks like NHTSA will have to force them to do any recalls on electronics and software, too. Seemed detached and not going to do any more (probably less) than what he's forced to do.
LaHood....I actually liked him. Yes, he was defiant and defensive at times. But, he's got a large job ahead of him, under scrutiny of Congress (which some are buddies) to get to the bottom of all of this fiasco, not only with Toyota, but all car manufacturers. I got the sense that he will get to the bottom of this.
Expert testimony.....Toyota came off as buffoons when Kane and Gilbert was able to replicate UA issues in 3 hours, when a gaggle of Toyota engineers could not, over a course of months, maybe years, and supposedly at a cost of millions of dollars. Then instead of bracing Gilbert's findings and asking for his help, they tried to harpoon his findings. Bad showing there.
Congress....well, they are who we thought they were. Mostly, they are a good 'ol boy fraternity (sorority). Self congratulatory. Got the sense that they all felt "what's in this for me?". Still, some pointed questions were asked. Some clearly did not understand the basics of how a car operates, and probably shouldn't have been allowed to be present in this venue on this topic. But, it seems the main theme of what they wanted to know...
-when did Toyota know about UA? And, what did they do to warn U.S. based drivers that this was an issue?
-did Toyota ignore more obvious defects in lieu of looking for the cheapest fix?
In general, whenever Toyota had an opportunity presented to them to really commit to getting their vehicles straightened out, they muffed it. They tried to impugn expert testimony, instead of embracing it in the hopes of finding a true fix.
As soon as I thought they were taking a step forward, they took two steps back. Particularly with Lent's and Mr Toyoda's testimony (as one Congressman stated), Toyota is trying to portray themselves as the victim. They aren't. Those who were injured, crashed or died were the victimes.....NOT TOYOTA!
The next 90-180 days will be telling. Whatever NHTSA comes up with, Toyota is going to have to accept it. Then we'll see how they respond. As victims? Or, as a good corporate citizen in the U.S.?
Even though no one knows for sure what the problems are here, many seem to think that Toyota should plead guilty to all charges before the investigation even starts. So far there is only speculation. Remember Audi?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Yup. Just that easy. It's all solved. NOT.
Do you know the state patrolman didn't put the car in neutral? Of course he did.
Mrs. Smith put the car in neutral and the transmission didn't switch. So much for that quick solution. Something about her toyota Camry upgrade wouldn't release with the engine revving!!!! She put it in reverse.
Did you listen to her say that the radio stayed on and the instrument lights stayed on after the car was stopped. AND when they put it in neutral to pull it onto the flatbed, the engine started ON ITS OWN.
Is that a description of a car that follows the command to go into neutral?
>Brakes
The brakes are impaired in some of these car runaways. In others the vacuum has been depleted from the booster that assists the brake effort.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
?????
No, I think unattended accelerations are happening because something is wrong with the car and they need to be recalled.
What I DO think is that a deficient motorist behind the wheel is going to have problems.
A capable motorist will stop the runaway vehicle albeit with some difficulty.... That has already happened (funny how that point and subject is readily avoided) and is unsung.
I love the posts that barb back and say "How could you possibly believe that a cop, with all that training couldn't stop the car?"
How could I believe the guy that had the loaner right before him stop it, with some difficulty?
Now my biggest fear is that something that is blatant driver error (going through a stop light) with a Toyota vehicle is now going to be conveniently blamed on a malfunctioning accelerator when the EMT's and Cops arrive at the scene. Very convenient but a bold-faced lie.
My questions to dvarone? When your car experienced UA, did you report it to the dealer? Is it a Toyota or Lexus? Was it a beer can holding the throttle down? Are you happy with a car that is erratic and dangerous to drive?
She should have just powered it off the the power off button, and she could have prevented all the excessive water works on Capitol Hill.
I would like to see more research by Dr. Glibert:
Lawmakers want to know what Toyota knew and when and they're getting some help from a local expert who may have figured it all out.
Dr. David Gilbert is a professor at Southern Illinois University's Automotive Technology Institute.
Dr. Gilbert recently conducted his own study into the sudden acceleration problems that has spurred millions of Toyota recalls.
His research was the center of discussion for about two hours Tuesday.
Gilbert says he found an electronic design flaw in Toyota's fail safe system that prevents the car's computer from detecting certain issues that can trigger the speed surges.
He worked with a safety research company to bring his findings to Congress.
"To be quite honest at the moment I discovered this, I was sick to my stomach," he said before the House subcommittee.
http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20100223/Gilbert.Testimony.pdf
Aha. See. There are some cases where improperly positioned floor mats cause problems along with the defection toyota design for the sensor on the accelerator. Now for the other 70%?
Unless you were there in the car, we can use logic. A state highway patrolman with years of driving experience under scary conditions in some cases wouldn't put the selector into neutral does not meet the logic test, as Judge Judy would say. Therefore it doesn't work as an excuse. Even Mrs. Smith testified here toyota was put into neutral and didn't release the transmission driveline engagement with the runaway motor. wwest posted that under load the transmission might now attempt to disengage the parts, I assume that's likely to damage parts in doing so therefore the transmission control doesn't allow it.
My question is whether the selector is read by the main computer and that request passed to a separate transmssion control computer and/or the transmission control is a part of the main computer; it's this main computer which seems to be losing its mind.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The auto tech news at the university is interesting too - lots of donations from Toyota, including an '09 Matrix and $100,000 in cash in '08. (link)
Now if we could just dial in Kane's resume a bit better.
Dvarone, welcome to the forum. The trooper's car didn't have a key to turn. And I don't think the one in Sevierville did either (also a Lexus, no key - just the push button).
That is correct. And conveniently the black box (EDR) was unreadable according to Toyota who has the only reader in existence. So we will never know if he tried. So far none of the testing agencies have tried shifting an ES350 into neutral with WOT traveling 120+ MPH. We also do not know if he tried to hold down the start/stop button for the 3+ seconds to kill the engine. We do know they traveled several miles at 120 MPH with flames coming off the brakes. That is a fact according to several witnesses. We know it is a heavily traveled freeway. And the accident occurred at the end of the freeway where it crosses a main thoroughfare. The driver was able to avoid other cars till he reached the end of the road. I accept the floor mat as the cause of this accident. That puts the responsibility directly on the shoulders of the dealer that loaned a car with the wrong floor mat.
I did not see the hearings. Gilbert's testimony is interesting and easy to read. He is obviously a good one to teach modern automotive electronics. Too bad Toyota does not have that kind of expertise in their engineering department.
His testimony:
http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20100223/Gilbert.Testimony.pdf
I think that's the same exact attitude that's put Toyota in the hot water they're in. That is, their customers a lying, couldn't happen, impossible, not Toyota's fault, etc.
The time has long come and gone where Toyota can blame their customers. Any further water drawn from that well will only lead to more backlash against Toyota.
Right now, better for them to just 'fess up, take care of their customers with the correct fix, and quit all this whining, finger pointing, blaming, bumbling, sidestepping, denying. That's the only way for them to "move forward".
Only problem for toyota is that people will ultimately choose the "safer" vehicle and that may not be a toyota based on what the company is saying about its lack of attention to safety over the past few years.....
the market is cruel reality...
I would think a more appropriate design for Toyota to implement would be for the computer to keep the RPMs short of red lining rather than stopping the tranny from going in to neutral. There's an old saying in computers, "To err is human, to really foul things up requires a computer".
How can you be sure about that? The auto transmission with many newer cars are part of the electronics control system; if the electronics is malfunction, there's a good chance that you won't be able to shift either. It's shift throttle by wire, shift by wire and brake by wire in many cars.
One of my friends put her Camry in reverse and started backing off from the parking spot. But the car went forward instead and crashed the car parked in front.
A retired machinist said it the best the other day on the local news (in regards to Toyota) He was interviewed on the spot after taking his Toyota in. The interviewer asked about his concerns - I'm obviously paraphrasing...
"You're here for the recall item, You're obviously are concerned with the accelerator problem?"
"No, not really, just making sure it's fixed properly and taking care of the recall item"
"So you're not worried about the car going out of control?"
He replied "Well, not really, just pop it into neutral and turn it off.... mechanical things or machines will never be perfect and eventually break or wear out - it's nice Toyota is taking great care with this issue..."
"So, you would buy another one?", the interviewer asked
"Well, we just recently got this one but....Oh sure... Sure... they're great cars, I'd buy another one"
A friend just asked me before this post "Why do you do that posting stuff - it seems like everybody in those things just argues and argues?", he's got a point - last post this thread.
Ending on lighter note, type in "Toyota Lawn Mower" into youtube.... Pretty funny.
I bet there will be more unintended acceleration incidents AFTER these Toyota recalls and so called fixes.
Just catching up here, so pardon me if someone has already responded, but I understand that both Honda and Nissan also have proprietary software for interrogating their event data recorders. I don't think Hyundai and most of the Europeans even have EDRs that can be interrogated. Even NHTSA won't mandate such EDRs, only that if manufacturers elect to use them, they must meet common standards and be openly readable by (I think) September 2012, the effective start of model year 2013.
When people are wrong, someone has to set them straight. Otherwise all we'd hear would be posts about how "there's nothing to the floor mats. There's nothing to see here. Move one."
Then it was the accelerator pedal was sticking. That's after being told by many how there was nothing but driver error causing the many versions of toyota products to go wild on their own. So then a flawed toyota-designed pedal was the cause of all the rest of the unintended accelerations.
Now we're down to the nitty-gritty some of us said at the beginning. There's an electronics problem. After 7 years, toyota is having the sunshine flash on the hidden reports and the people are getting some safety help from NHTSA.
Defenders of obvious dangers just keep posting that there's really nothing to it. Driver error. Just like drivers didn't change their oil. Drivers used bad oil. Those were from the points when the sludging problems started surfacing.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
She may not be so happy when a certain institute releases its crash test results. Something's going on when a car that has been on the market since last summer has missing crash test ratings. Just sayin'
Can you spell conflict-of-interest? Kane drums up business for
sharks, trial lawyers, while ABC sells sensationalism for ratings.I can only hope this doesn't happen, but you know it will to some extent, "but officer, my car just accelerated out of control into that telephone pole," as the beer bottles roll out of the open door...
Kane even has an attorney on staff to help with cases that are drummed up.
Again, my pardon if this has already been addressed, but Lentz really had no choice but to say this. There COULD be a mysterious electronic problem as some allege or even fervently hope. But as I said above, I have no doubt sudden acceleration complaints will continue, with all makes but especially Toyota, now that the trial lawyers smell blood in the water. And houdini1 is right, we will ALL pay more for our cars, regardless of the truth.
GG, I appreciate your comments in all of the forums in which you participate. But in answer to your comment above, where is the hard evidence this needs to be done? I still don't see it, esp. since Gilbert is on Kane's payroll for his "tinkering."
Well, he's on to something here -- it's a cold hard fact that Sean Kane's entire enterprise is founded mainly by trial lawyer contributions. And Gilbert was hired by Kane. So trail lawyers stand to benefit from Gilbert's "findings" against Toyota in regard to sudden acceleration.
I bet there will be more unintended acceleration incidents AFTER these Toyota recalls and so called fixes.
xlu....there was another Congressman during Lentz's testimony who suggested the same exact thing....only this time, with the Smith's Lexus. Get it back. Tear it apart. Find out what went wrong. Lentz didn't commit to do that, but he should have.
This tells me one of two things, either Toyota knows the real cause, and is trying to circumvent having to install the true fix. Or, they don't care enough to get those vehicles and find out what went wrong, but just dismiss those out of hand, without knowing. Maybe another....Toyota is afraid of what they may find if they do so because they'll have to submit the findings to NHTSA.
Neither scenario is good, however.
Dr Gilbert already testified he was able to replicate how it could happen on an allegedly "good" vehicle. And, he was able to do something that allegedly all the engineering brain trust could do. So, this is much more widespread than they want it to get.
First accident reported via UA on a recalled and supposedly "fixed" Toyota/Lexus (with new floormats and pedal shims) will be the final nail. It'll happen. It's just a matter of when.
Leaves me speechless....
Leaves me scratching my head. She turns off the cruise control and steps on the brake with both feet. The car doesn't slow down. She then puts the car in neutral and even reverse and still the car doesn't slow down. But then it does. Eventually. After asking God for help, and after calling her husband.
Maybe I'll get something from the tooth fairy tonight...
I am a mechanic and have had my share of "fun" rides......No brakes! No steering, Runaway car and trucks! And I am not saying that I am a "better" driver than most although I do drive a lot of problematic vehicles and have always got them under control!
I dont want to demean the whole situation but "maybe" some of this IS driver error??
Or at the very least.....lack of driver knowledge or capabilities?
You say that like it's a bad thing.
The alternative to having trial lawyers hire experts like Dr. Gilbert to chase down all these leads is to let the NHTSA do it.
That's worked out real well eh?
(Hey Mechinc1, can you shoot me an email? Got a question about your Answers post. Thanks!)