Kudos to Edmunds. Cobalt steering complaints in last 5 years...1157, Corolla steering complaints in last 5 years...84.
Just one HONEST example of how this thing with Toyota is being blown out of proportion. This hysteria reminds me of the "War of the Worlds" radio broadcast.
Exactly! Edmunds is keeping it straight, not joining the hysteria. Another: 34 deaths have been alleged to have occurred from the sudden acceleration in Toyotas over the past 10 years.
Now I am the last one to trivialize any traffic fatality, but how many realize about 100 people died yesterday on US roads, 100 more the day before, and another 100 on Friday?
This a close version of the video ran by ABC news tonight as their lead story. In the version I saw on the broadcast, Professor Gilbert stated moisture, corrosion, and wear can cause this to happen. I can only guess that ABC has several versions of different edits of this video.
I don't understand the point of this. A short circuit was induced to cause the throttle to open. How does this relate to the real world? Is this like the trick CBS used to "prove" the Audi 5000 can accelerate on its own?
How do you explain that ABC news video with a university professor? How come Toyota couldn't figure this problem out, or did they know???
Up until this point I was willing to give Toyota the benefit of doubt. But after the SIU professor came up with this shorting problem after only a few weeks, I am starting to suspect something bigger is going on within Toyota. Gas pedal shims sounded kind of like a desperate "cheap" action and now I'm starting to smell something bad honestly. The video kind of puts all that condescending talk about driver error in a new context. Maybe it isn't that easy to stop a Toyota when this happens and driver error was a ploy?
The person being interviewed said that the unit was operating in a fault mode all along. Then something can happen to induce the acceleration; that's what was simulated by connecting the cable into the circuit.
I don't think it's any kind of plot to cause something to happen that would not happen otherwise.
What also was amazing was that the brakes didn't seem to work in the perception of the journalist driving the car. The expert indicated that the power of the motor along with, I assume, the downshifted transmission makes it seem they're not working. That suggests the brakes aren't strong enough in that vehicle. It needs more brake capability.
I have heard that Toyota's correction is to attach a small weight to the accelerator pedal. This could be due to a problem with the AAP sensor calibration or an anomaly with the software in the pcm that would cause it believe that the operator wished to floor the pedal. Sort of a concern more with programming than anything else. Although a "reprogram" does not seem to solve the problem due to the fact that it would take a long time to come out with a solution like this and that the vehicle would have to be redesigned. In my opinion, Toyota is keeping it cheap but how many manufacturers have engineers dedicated and intelligent enough to find a simple (back to basics) way of fixing a problem instead of starting from scratch and it didn't take a long time to do so...
Maybe my skepticism is more readily explained by someone else on another website (and there are many more comments similar to this one):
I’m no Toyota fan and I’m astounded how they could have handled this so badly, but I think ABC News is as likely to get to the bottom of this as the U.S. Congress is. I can’t think of two institutions I trust less, or that have more hidden agendas.
I watched the ABC story very carefully and all it proved to me is that you can rig anything to malfunction, and that the greater the system’s complexity, the more spectacular a failure you can generate. There was no proof whatsoever that this is actually what is happening in these cars.
Over twenty years ago “60 Minutes” did exactly the same thing to Audi with a crackpot “expert” named Rosenbluth (a plaintiffs’ paid expert witness), who “proved” that if you injected enough compressed air into an automatic transmission, you could make it shift to “Drive” without a driver command. That this had nothing whatsoever to do with anything was completely lost on Ed Bradley and most viewers...
As for the brakes, the ABC reporter (and driver of the car in the video) said he felt like he had no brakes, but Mr. Gilbert said the brakes were still functional, just that you had to press a lot harder to overcome the engine under WOT. This is consistent with what has been reported before.
I don't understand the point of this. A short circuit was induced to cause the throttle to open.
I know you are smarter than that. The point of the test was a short between two sensor points caused WOT. The system that keeps track of errors did not see that failure. Was that by design? Or lack of good engineering?
They did not hire a top NHTSA person.
Looks to me like they had stroke at the NHTSA. Or do they let the Janitor make the decisions at the NHTSA? Bloomberg seems to agree with me on this one.
Feb. 13 (Bloomberg) -- At least four U.S. investigations into unintended acceleration by Toyota Motor Corp. vehicles were ended with the help of former regulators hired by the automaker, warding off possible recalls, court and government records show.
Christopher Tinto, vice president of regulatory affairs in Toyota’s Washington office, and Christopher Santucci, who works for Tinto, helped persuade the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration to end probes including those of 2002-2003 Toyota Camrys and Solaras, court documents show. Both men joined Toyota directly from NHTSA, Tinto in 1994 and Santucci in 2003.
While all automakers have employees who handle NHTSA issues, Toyota may be alone among the major companies in employing former agency staffers to do so. Spokesmen for General Motors Co., Ford Motor Co., Chrysler Group LLC and Honda Motor Co. all say their companies have no ex-NHTSA people who deal with the agency on defects.
Possible links between Toyota and NHTSA may fuel mounting criticism of their handling of defects in Toyota and Lexus models tied to 19 deaths from 2004 to 2009. Three congressional committees have scheduled hearings on the recalls.
“Toyota bamboozled NHTSA or NHTSA was bamboozled by itself,” said Joan Claybrook, an auto safety advocate and former NHTSA administrator in the Jimmy Carter administration. “I think there is going to be a lot of heat on NHTSA over this.”
This is from the same website and authored by an engineer:
The Audi Sudden Acceleration Fraud of the 1980’s was perpetrated by CBS’ 60 Minutes.
The Chevy Side-Saddle Fuel Tank Fraud of the 1990’s was perpetrated by NBC’s Dateline.
I would hope that the Walt Disney Company’s lawyers have a) studied both of the above case-studies, and b) were asked to vet this report before it aired.
Sounds like you are doing damage control for Toyota. I don't see any parallel between the other instances and this one.
I am sure you can get with Dr Gilbert and get the complete test results. We know cars have been documented with exactly this kind of failure. The earlier case the dealer replaced throttle body controller and sensors. They caused WOT that could not be stopped by the driver. Had nothing to do the the throttle controller.
The biggest question in my mind. WHY the Diagnostics show NO errors? Pretty convenient for the dealers to just shuffle the customers out with a all systems good.
I know you are smarter than that. The point of the test was a short between two sensor points caused WOT. The system that keeps track of errors did not see that failure. Was that by design? Or lack of good engineering?
I'm not an engineer, nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night. But I do have a background in science.
Let's see how your statement was addressed (again from the link I cited earlier):
This [video] raises a number of red flags. What they have done is to find a way to send a full acceleration signal in a way that doesn’t create an error code. Is that intrinsically a problem? Can a GM or other brand car be made to do the same thing?
It also doesn’t at all explain how this might have happened in the real world. It just shows that it could have, thanks to carefully engineered human intervention.
It also doesn’t surprise me that an acceleration doesn’t create an error code. So what have they really proven here? Almost nothing, as far as I can tell.
In fact, it borders on the 60 Minute piece where they rigged the Audi 5000 to jump forward.
Here's yet another comment:
Wait a minute, this whole premise seems flawed. We need more details. If you put a voltage on the sensor wire that indicates full throttle, then the car is going to put the throttle at full. Why would it be an error? Exactly what did he short? If I remember correctly, that unit has two sensors. Did he short both sensors? There’s a lot of missing information here.
Your link believes the ABC test to be valid from this statement.
But now ABC News may just have the first positive evidence of an electronic problem that could explain the mystery behind Toyota’s unintended acceleration problem. Dave Gilbert of Southern Illinois University has found that it’s possible to cause unintended acceleration without it triggering an error code that might give some kind of clue as to its cause. Combined with our finding that Toyota actively conceals data from its black box data recorders (out of line with standard industry practice), this could be some of the first positive evidence that there’s more to the “ghost in the machine” theory than mere panic-driven speculation.
Let's try putting the emphasis on different words:
But now ABC News may just have the first positive evidence of an electronic problem that could explain the mystery behind Toyota’s unintended acceleration problem. Dave Gilbert of Southern Illinois University has found that it’s possible to cause unintended acceleration without it triggering an error code that might give some kind of clue as to its cause. Combined with our finding that Toyota actively conceals data from its black box data recorders (out of line with standard industry practice), this could be some of the first positive evidence that there’s more to the “ghost in the machine” theory than mere panic-driven speculation.
Also please read all of the comments -- more agree with me than don't.
No, none of the bloggers you quoted are identified as being qualified to refute Dr. Gilbert's findings. The Truth about Cars people seem inclined to believe there is a REAL problem that Toyota has not addressed.
How could it happen in the real World? Moisture gets into everything that is not well sealed under the hood. Are all the sensors hermetically sealed from any outside elements?
I have read all the comments on these Edmund's threads, more agree that Toyota is at fault than they are innocent. You are on the losing side of Toyota history. I don't like reading blogs that I am not registered to comment on. It is too frustrating to see false statements that cannot be corrected.
The good doctor may not have found the exact problem that causes all the cases of UA in Toyota vehicles. He has pinpointed one that causes the problem and leaves no evidence for the technicians to address. So after Toyota fixes that problem we go onto the next and the next. If it is too complex for Toyota to live with, they should shut up shop and go back to Japan.
A tenured professor at a state university has nothing to gain by exaggerating or rigging results. I think this is very credible, but maybe worse, I don't see how Toyota's engineers haven't been able to determine this (or is there a coverup?).
Let me join the force.. This mania and hysteria is getting really crazy... GM is indeed Govt motors !! Hopefully Toyoda has a successful hearing. I think the American folks are much wiser than to get sucked up in this sensationalization of news.. Hope the Congress gets back to some serious work and stops this ridiculous approach ! :shades:
My guess is the system is TOO Complex with so many subsystems that the different groups are clueless as to what the other is doing. They all add their electronic sensors and drive it two times around the test track and go have a drink to celebrate with high fives. If they can prove a cover-up, I would kick them out of the country and toss the CEO Toyoda into prison. Ford can pick up the slack no problem.
> just that you had to press a lot harder to overcome the engine under WOT
But the driver did not pump the brakes and lower the vacuum in the booster causing loss of brake assist. He said it felt like the brakes weren't working even though the vacuum boost was still maximum.
This is just as reported, and sounds like a safety concern. Why aren't the brakes powerful enough at full booster assist to slow the car? That sounds like another ancillary safety factor to be checked. Are the brakes under-engineered?
"Anything that keeps Congress from more spending is a plus. I hope they grill Toyota till election time in November"
I like the way you think! Just look at all the money we will save while Congress is attacking Toyota they will not be figuring out how to print and spend. I just hope MR. Toyoda does not fly a corporate jet to DC :shades:
:lemon: If there cars are so good, there is now need for a senate inquiry, I admire loyalty but I loathe stupidly, Toyota has been playing us for years with there” I know nothing policy” here in Australia, and it is long overdue that they are being held responsible for the many defect built in their car. This may sound harsh, but through no fault of their own, there many customers have been footing the bills and being blamed by Toyota Australia, for whatever goes wrong, and on top of that has no compassion or understanding or even tries for that matter. I am sorry to the sensitive reader in this forum, but to fight a monster you have to turn into one to be heard, and yes it is a sad Day, when it has to come to that.
"Given the mature nature of EDR technology and the degree to which its competitors have made their EDR data available for 3rd-party download; the limited circumstances (e.g. court order) under which Toyota makes its single “prototype” device available, the way in which Toyota characterizes the software within as “unvalidated” and unreliable, and Toyota’s persistence in these actions despite the obvious conflict of interest (as the sole party that can release EDR data), one has to wonder what Toyota is hiding behind their black box"
Toyota supposedly records only 1 second of somewhat trivial data.
And we compare to GM's OPEN READING EDR, readable by THIRD PARTY readers unlike toyota's test only one in the country reader:
?The types of data that can be captured and stored are limited only by the available sensors, integration into a vehicle-communication protocol (i.e. CAN-BUS or Flex-Ray), software-design, computing power, and available memory. At the time of the NHTSA report (2001), GM’s EDRs were already capable of the following:
Capture: State of the driver’ belt, vehicle speed, engine RPM, “brake odoff,” and throttle position;
Transmit and Input: The driver seat belt switch signal is typically input into the SDM, while the remaining sensors are monitored by one or more other electronic modules that broadcast data according to a ”send on change” based design (e.g. a change in engine speed of more than 32 RPM, broadcasts the new RPM value on the serial bus).
Store, archive, update and recover: In airbag deployment or a near-deployment crashes, the last 5-seconds of data are stored in an EEPROM (recoverable with appropriate PC-based equipment.) This means, every second, the SDM takes the most recent sensor data values and stores them in a recirculating buffer (RAM), one storage location for each parameter for a total of 5-seconds. When the airbag sensing system “enables” on impact, buffer refreshing is suspended;
I've seen reports state that they will lose about 5% of total market share. I'm going from memory. Round numbers, but U.S. annualized car sales are roughly 10M vehicles. I've seen expert estimates stating their market share could drop 5%.....or 500,000 less cars sold on an annualized basis. Toyota had about 14% market share. So, that means their market share would drop to about 9%. But, all those numbers were stated before the Toyota internal documents were released showing that Toyota dismissed, delayed, and misdirected the safety and quality issues their vehicles had. That was also before those same internal documents stated that the problems they're having are electrical/software related, and not just mechanical in nature. So, we'll see how that info affects those numbers.
Their inventory on dealers lots has ballooned to 100+ days stock on hand at their higher marketshare numbers (ideally, it should be about 30-40 days), and that's even with the suspension of production and eliminating production for days at a time when production resumed.
That's only in the U.S. I don't know where to find numbers for the other geographic areas where they've done massive recalls, like in their home country (Japan), China and Europe.
Just a comment that I'm sick of the "government motors" conspiracy fans who think Toyota is being unfairly crticized. This is bunk. Do you honestly think it would be any different if this defect was discovered two years ago before the bankruptcy of GM? Of course not. Note that the most aggressive congressman, Congressman Issa is a Republican.
Some people have too much imagination and see conspiracy theories everywhere. Here it's just a timing issue, that's it. This occurs two years ago, no conspiracy - occurs today, big conspiracy? BS I say.
By the way, it would have been discovered earlier if Toyota had been more forthright and open with NHTSA....
Apparently Toyota was avoiding the safety recalls since 2004, and Lobbying the US lawmakers to avoid those recalls. It is now a criminal probe folks as at least 30 deaths have resulted from this. Shame on you Toyota. But hey, sites like Edmunds do help. Was researching the Corolla 2 months ago for my sister in law, and found the reviews here very helpful. Most people were complaining about the Electric power steering, and Toyota dealers answer (You are not driving a BMW!!). The power steering is now under investigation too. Needless to say, she is not driving a Corolla but the happy owner of a KIA Forte SX. Awesome car. Bottom line is Japanese automakers are in the same position US automakers were in before. They are cutting cost. Korea is the new Japan. Give it another decade, and Korea will be in the same boat, cutting cost, and China will be the new Korea. Point is do not have blind loyalty to brand names. Always buy the best car at the time.
I am sure the UAW will take advantage of the current Toyota debacle. I don't see any reason for keeping NUMMI open. They have a lot better locations with less state regulations and labor issues. It was an experiment with GM and Toyota. Unless Toyota wants to become part of Government Motors. Maybe that is the plan.... :sick:
Lentz gave a short statement to the press about how dedicated toyota is to the safety of their customers.
If that were the case, why wasn't there more done earlier to collect properly the data on acceleration events and pass it properly along to the NHSTA? :sick:
Nice PR statement. Some not in the know might accept it on face.
imid.....saw the quotes. I'm wondering how many lawyers Lentz sent that couple of sentences to before they gave it their final blessing. The downside is, Toyota still won't address the elephant in the room....that is, their electronics and software glitches. They're side stepping that just like they did the accelerator pedal issue (by insisting it was just a floormat issue).
I'm betting that they'll have to address that since first up on the agenda is the lady who is testifying that no matter what she did with her Lexus (mash the brake, use the emergency brake, shoved trans in"neutral" or "park", etc), her vehicle was still involved in an accident, despite her best efforts.
Plus, Lentz says Toyota has many "fail-safe" features to make it impossible, it clearly is possible since there are so many incidences where the fail safes either didn't work, or weren't designed correctly to begin with (probably both).
As soon as he finally admits to those issues, it's going to be a tough slog for Toyota, regardless of how many apologies they issue.
If people really think government is there to protect them, then they are in for a shock. All of these agencies are just meant to harass companies, and then provide jobs for ex-bureaucrats as lobbyists. Joan Claybrook is a professional agitator who has caused more problems than she has solved.
On another note, I read that one of the people who is going to testify before Congress is Rhonda Smith of TN, who claims that her Lexus took her on a 6 mile, 100 MPH "joy" ride. She says that she tried many things including putting it into neutral!!! She says that the car slowed down on its own after a while. All the experts are advising to put a vehicle into neutral, but does it always work? What do you all think?
I have received absolutely nothing from Toyota about the two recalls affecting my Camry. I called the dealer to schedule the shim insert and the brake override flash. The dealer said there is no reflash, but there are many media articles stating it is to be installed with the shim. I am confused and must say this is the worst corporate handling of a big issue I've ever experienced. Does anyone know if there is a brake override software flash for 07-10 Camry that is supposed to be installed on the car??? Thanks
I do have to comment that toyota couldn't buy advertising as thorough as this is going to be. They now are talking about a Lexus that ran away and was towed to Sevierville (TN) and then to Kingston to a Lexus dealer on a flatbed.
The owner is indicating that Rep Barton (R, TX) questioning about the wiring on the car. I can't tell if Barton is for or ag'inst the toyota company being on the hotseat.
imid....only caught about 20 minutes of the testimony during eating lunch. In short...
-Lexus customer had UA. No floormat issues. No mistake hitting the accelerator. Threw it in neutral and reverse.....used emergency brake, hit the brake with both feet. Accident happened. Reported it to Lexus and NHTSA. Lexus called them liars, did nothing. NHTSA didn't seem to care all that much.
-expert witness statesToyota's failsafe's failed because of electrical and programming issues. Toyota said that's impossible....stalled and/or ignored the experts findings. It took Toyota millions and months, maybe years, investigating the issues and found no link to electronics and/or programming. It took the expert about 3.5 hours and no out of pocket to find the problems.
-2,200 UA reports. Half were not related to floor mats and accelerator pedals. Some Toyota dealership service depts actually were able to replicate UA. Toyota dismissed.
Sure there's going to be more interesting testimony. And, in fairness, I've yet to hear Toyota's response.
Once they got past the opening statements, some of the chatter has gotten interesting. I may have missed it, but no one has really asked Kane what his background is. Dr. Gilbert is doing ok.
Toyota better hope that Mrs. Smith isn't the lead on the news tonight though.
And those of us who purchased toys over the last few years can live with the poor quality sitting in our driveways and garages....but the next one we buy will certainly be better for sure!!!
Toyota president: We grew too big, too fast in US NEW YORK – Toyota's president says the automaker compromised quality by growing too quickly in the U.S., but it will take steps to improve quality control.
Toyota President Akio Toyoda will deliver the remarks Wednesday to the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee. The prepared testimony was released ahead of time.
The head of Toyota's U.S. sales arm, as well as outside safety experts and Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, are testifying before Congress on Tuesday.
Toyota's president will tell Congress that the automaker grew too quickly in recent years, at times pursuing sales volume over safety and quality. He said the company plans to establish a quality center in the U.S. and hire an executive focused on product safety
Steve....Dr. Gilbert was asked point blank, "what does Toyota need to do?". He said they need to change their strategy and reprogram ALL OF THEIR VEHICLES.
Comments
Just one HONEST example of how this thing with Toyota is being blown out of proportion. This hysteria reminds me of the "War of the Worlds" radio broadcast.
Exactly! Edmunds is keeping it straight, not joining the hysteria. Another: 34 deaths have been alleged to have occurred from the sudden acceleration in Toyotas over the past 10 years.
Now I am the last one to trivialize any traffic fatality, but how many realize about 100 people died yesterday on US roads, 100 more the day before, and another 100 on Friday?
Where is the outrage?
Yes, it went from conventional hydraulic assist to electric assist starting with the 2009 model year.
I don't understand the point of this. A short circuit was induced to cause the throttle to open. How does this relate to the real world? Is this like the trick CBS used to "prove" the Audi 5000 can accelerate on its own?
How do you explain that ABC news video with a university professor? How come Toyota couldn't figure this problem out, or did they know???
Up until this point I was willing to give Toyota the benefit of doubt. But after the SIU professor came up with this shorting problem after only a few weeks, I am starting to suspect something bigger is going on within Toyota. Gas pedal shims sounded kind of like a desperate "cheap" action and now I'm starting to smell something bad honestly. The video kind of puts all that condescending talk about driver error in a new context. Maybe it isn't that easy to stop a Toyota when this happens and driver error was a ploy?
I don't think it's any kind of plot to cause something to happen that would not happen otherwise.
What also was amazing was that the brakes didn't seem to work in the perception of the journalist driving the car. The expert indicated that the power of the motor along with, I assume, the downshifted transmission makes it seem they're not working. That suggests the brakes aren't strong enough in that vehicle. It needs more brake capability.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I’m no Toyota fan and I’m astounded how they could have handled this so badly, but I think ABC News is as likely to get to the bottom of this as the U.S. Congress is. I can’t think of two institutions I trust less, or that have more hidden agendas.
I watched the ABC story very carefully and all it proved to me is that you can rig anything to malfunction, and that the greater the system’s complexity, the more spectacular a failure you can generate. There was no proof whatsoever that this is actually what is happening in these cars.
Over twenty years ago “60 Minutes” did exactly the same thing to Audi with a crackpot “expert” named Rosenbluth (a plaintiffs’ paid expert witness), who “proved” that if you injected enough compressed air into an automatic transmission, you could make it shift to “Drive” without a driver command. That this had nothing whatsoever to do with anything was completely lost on Ed Bradley and most viewers...
As for the brakes, the ABC reporter (and driver of the car in the video) said he felt like he had no brakes, but Mr. Gilbert said the brakes were still functional, just that you had to press a lot harder to overcome the engine under WOT. This is consistent with what has been reported before.
I know you are smarter than that. The point of the test was a short between two sensor points caused WOT. The system that keeps track of errors did not see that failure. Was that by design? Or lack of good engineering?
They did not hire a top NHTSA person.
Looks to me like they had stroke at the NHTSA. Or do they let the Janitor make the decisions at the NHTSA? Bloomberg seems to agree with me on this one.
Feb. 13 (Bloomberg) -- At least four U.S. investigations into unintended acceleration by Toyota Motor Corp. vehicles were ended with the help of former regulators hired by the automaker, warding off possible recalls, court and government records show.
Christopher Tinto, vice president of regulatory affairs in Toyota’s Washington office, and Christopher Santucci, who works for Tinto, helped persuade the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration to end probes including those of 2002-2003 Toyota Camrys and Solaras, court documents show. Both men joined Toyota directly from NHTSA, Tinto in 1994 and Santucci in 2003.
While all automakers have employees who handle NHTSA issues, Toyota may be alone among the major companies in employing former agency staffers to do so. Spokesmen for General Motors Co., Ford Motor Co., Chrysler Group LLC and Honda Motor Co. all say their companies have no ex-NHTSA people who deal with the agency on defects.
Possible links between Toyota and NHTSA may fuel mounting criticism of their handling of defects in Toyota and Lexus models tied to 19 deaths from 2004 to 2009. Three congressional committees have scheduled hearings on the recalls.
“Toyota bamboozled NHTSA or NHTSA was bamboozled by itself,” said Joan Claybrook, an auto safety advocate and former NHTSA administrator in the Jimmy Carter administration. “I think there is going to be a lot of heat on NHTSA over this.”
The Audi Sudden Acceleration Fraud of the 1980’s was perpetrated by CBS’ 60 Minutes.
The Chevy Side-Saddle Fuel Tank Fraud of the 1990’s was perpetrated by NBC’s Dateline.
I would hope that the Walt Disney Company’s lawyers have a) studied both of the above case-studies, and b) were asked to vet this report before it aired.
For more information and commentary, see this.
I am sure you can get with Dr Gilbert and get the complete test results. We know cars have been documented with exactly this kind of failure. The earlier case the dealer replaced throttle body controller and sensors. They caused WOT that could not be stopped by the driver. Had nothing to do the the throttle controller.
The biggest question in my mind. WHY the Diagnostics show NO errors? Pretty convenient for the dealers to just shuffle the customers out with a all systems good.
I'm not an engineer, nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.
Let's see how your statement was addressed (again from the link I cited earlier):
This [video] raises a number of red flags. What they have done is to find a way to send a full acceleration signal in a way that doesn’t create an error code. Is that intrinsically a problem? Can a GM or other brand car be made to do the same thing?
It also doesn’t at all explain how this might have happened in the real world. It just shows that it could have, thanks to carefully engineered human intervention.
It also doesn’t surprise me that an acceleration doesn’t create an error code. So what have they really proven here? Almost nothing, as far as I can tell.
In fact, it borders on the 60 Minute piece where they rigged the Audi 5000 to jump forward.
Here's yet another comment:
Wait a minute, this whole premise seems flawed. We need more details. If you put a voltage on the sensor wire that indicates full throttle, then the car is going to put the throttle at full. Why would it be an error? Exactly what did he short? If I remember correctly, that unit has two sensors. Did he short both sensors? There’s a lot of missing information here.
So now do you understand my skepticism?
But now ABC News may just have the first positive evidence of an electronic problem that could explain the mystery behind Toyota’s unintended acceleration problem. Dave Gilbert of Southern Illinois University has found that it’s possible to cause unintended acceleration without it triggering an error code that might give some kind of clue as to its cause. Combined with our finding that Toyota actively conceals data from its black box data recorders (out of line with standard industry practice), this could be some of the first positive evidence that there’s more to the “ghost in the machine” theory than mere panic-driven speculation.
Well, with all the hysteria going on in here, it's down to houdini1 and me to defend the fort!
But now ABC News may just have the first positive evidence of an electronic problem that could explain the mystery behind Toyota’s unintended acceleration problem. Dave Gilbert of Southern Illinois University has found that it’s possible to cause unintended acceleration without it triggering an error code that might give some kind of clue as to its cause. Combined with our finding that Toyota actively conceals data from its black box data recorders (out of line with standard industry practice), this could be some of the first positive evidence that there’s more to the “ghost in the machine” theory than mere panic-driven speculation.
Also please read all of the comments -- more agree with me than don't.
No, none of the bloggers you quoted are identified as being qualified to refute Dr. Gilbert's findings. The Truth about Cars people seem inclined to believe there is a REAL problem that Toyota has not addressed.
How could it happen in the real World? Moisture gets into everything that is not well sealed under the hood. Are all the sensors hermetically sealed from any outside elements?
The good doctor may not have found the exact problem that causes all the cases of UA in Toyota vehicles. He has pinpointed one that causes the problem and leaves no evidence for the technicians to address. So after Toyota fixes that problem we go onto the next and the next. If it is too complex for Toyota to live with, they should shut up shop and go back to Japan.
Anything that keeps Congress from more spending is a plus. I hope they grill Toyota till election time in November.
http://www.forbes.com/2010/02/22/recall-ford-cars-intelligent-investing-toyota-m- - otor.html
I haven't given up on Toyota yet.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/toyota-resale-values-down-only-slightly-2010-02- -22?reflink=MW_news_stmp
But the driver did not pump the brakes and lower the vacuum in the booster causing loss of brake assist. He said it felt like the brakes weren't working even though the vacuum boost was still maximum.
This is just as reported, and sounds like a safety concern. Why aren't the brakes powerful enough at full booster assist to slow the car? That sounds like another ancillary safety factor to be checked. Are the brakes under-engineered?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I like the way you think! Just look at all the money we will save while Congress is attacking Toyota they will not be figuring out how to print and spend. I just hope MR. Toyoda does not fly a corporate jet to DC :shades:
I admire loyalty but I loathe stupidly, Toyota has been playing us for years with there” I know nothing policy” here in Australia, and it is long overdue that they are being held responsible for the many defect built in their car.
This may sound harsh, but through no fault of their own, there many customers have been footing the bills and being blamed by Toyota Australia, for whatever goes wrong, and on top of that has no compassion or understanding or even tries for that matter.
I am sorry to the sensitive reader in this forum, but to fight a monster you have to turn into one to be heard, and yes it is a sad Day, when it has to come to that.
"Given the mature nature of EDR technology and the degree to which its competitors have made their EDR data available for 3rd-party download; the limited circumstances (e.g. court order) under which Toyota makes its single “prototype” device available, the way in which Toyota characterizes the software within as “unvalidated” and unreliable, and Toyota’s persistence in these actions despite the obvious conflict of interest (as the sole party that can release EDR data), one has to wonder what Toyota is hiding behind their black box"
Toyota supposedly records only 1 second of somewhat trivial data.
And we compare to GM's OPEN READING EDR, readable by THIRD PARTY readers unlike toyota's test only one in the country reader:
?The types of data that can be captured and stored are limited only by the available sensors, integration into a vehicle-communication protocol (i.e. CAN-BUS or Flex-Ray), software-design, computing power, and available memory. At the time of the NHTSA report (2001), GM’s EDRs were already capable of the following:
Capture: State of the driver’ belt, vehicle speed, engine RPM, “brake odoff,” and throttle position;
Transmit and Input: The driver seat belt switch signal is typically input into the SDM, while the remaining sensors are monitored by one or more other electronic modules that broadcast data according to a ”send on change” based design (e.g. a change in engine speed of more than 32 RPM, broadcasts the new RPM value on the serial bus).
Store, archive, update and recover: In airbag deployment or a near-deployment crashes, the last 5-seconds of data are stored in an EEPROM (recoverable with appropriate PC-based equipment.) This means, every second, the SDM takes the most recent sensor data values and stores them in a recirculating buffer (RAM), one storage location for each parameter for a total of 5-seconds. When the airbag sensing system “enables” on impact, buffer refreshing is suspended;
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I've seen reports state that they will lose about 5% of total market share. I'm going from memory. Round numbers, but U.S. annualized car sales are roughly 10M vehicles. I've seen expert estimates stating their market share could drop 5%.....or 500,000 less cars sold on an annualized basis. Toyota had about 14% market share. So, that means their market share would drop to about 9%. But, all those numbers were stated before the Toyota internal documents were released showing that Toyota dismissed, delayed, and misdirected the safety and quality issues their vehicles had. That was also before those same internal documents stated that the problems they're having are electrical/software related, and not just mechanical in nature. So, we'll see how that info affects those numbers.
Their inventory on dealers lots has ballooned to 100+ days stock on hand at their higher marketshare numbers (ideally, it should be about 30-40 days), and that's even with the suspension of production and eliminating production for days at a time when production resumed.
That's only in the U.S. I don't know where to find numbers for the other geographic areas where they've done massive recalls, like in their home country (Japan), China and Europe.
Some people have too much imagination and see conspiracy theories everywhere. Here it's just a timing issue, that's it. This occurs two years ago, no conspiracy - occurs today, big conspiracy? BS I say.
By the way, it would have been discovered earlier if Toyota had been more forthright and open with NHTSA....
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Don't jip yourself out of displacement!
The power steering is now under investigation too. Needless to say, she is not driving a Corolla but the happy owner of a KIA Forte SX. Awesome car.
Bottom line is Japanese automakers are in the same position US automakers were in before. They are cutting cost. Korea is the new Japan.
Give it another decade, and Korea will be in the same boat, cutting cost, and China will be the new Korea.
Point is do not have blind loyalty to brand names. Always buy the best car at the time.
How thoughtful of them.
If that were the case, why wasn't there more done earlier to collect properly the data on acceleration events and pass it properly along to the NHSTA? :sick:
Nice PR statement. Some not in the know might accept it on face.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I'm betting that they'll have to address that since first up on the agenda is the lady who is testifying that no matter what she did with her Lexus (mash the brake, use the emergency brake, shoved trans in"neutral" or "park", etc), her vehicle was still involved in an accident, despite her best efforts.
Plus, Lentz says Toyota has many "fail-safe" features to make it impossible, it clearly is possible since there are so many incidences where the fail safes either didn't work, or weren't designed correctly to begin with (probably both).
As soon as he finally admits to those issues, it's going to be a tough slog for Toyota, regardless of how many apologies they issue.
Waxman ragged on NHTSA pretty good.
On another note, I read that one of the people who is going to testify before Congress is Rhonda Smith of TN, who claims that her Lexus took her on a 6 mile, 100 MPH "joy" ride. She says that she tried many things including putting it into neutral!!! She says that the car slowed down on its own after a while. All the experts are advising to put a vehicle into neutral, but does it always work? What do you all think?
I do have to comment that toyota couldn't buy advertising as thorough as this is going to be. They now are talking about a Lexus that ran away and was towed to Sevierville (TN) and then to Kingston to a Lexus dealer on a flatbed.
The owner is indicating that Rep Barton (R, TX) questioning about the wiring on the car. I can't tell if Barton is for or ag'inst the toyota company being on the hotseat.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
-Lexus customer had UA. No floormat issues. No mistake hitting the accelerator. Threw it in neutral and reverse.....used emergency brake, hit the brake with both feet. Accident happened. Reported it to Lexus and NHTSA. Lexus called them liars, did nothing. NHTSA didn't seem to care all that much.
-expert witness statesToyota's failsafe's failed because of electrical and programming issues. Toyota said that's impossible....stalled and/or ignored the experts findings. It took Toyota millions and months, maybe years, investigating the issues and found no link to electronics and/or programming. It took the expert about 3.5 hours and no out of pocket to find the problems.
-2,200 UA reports. Half were not related to floor mats and accelerator pedals. Some Toyota dealership service depts actually were able to replicate UA. Toyota dismissed.
Sure there's going to be more interesting testimony. And, in fairness, I've yet to hear Toyota's response.
So far, this is getting even worse for Toyota.
Toyota better hope that Mrs. Smith isn't the lead on the news tonight though.
Toyota president: We grew too big, too fast in US
NEW YORK – Toyota's president says the automaker compromised quality by growing too quickly in the U.S., but it will take steps to improve quality control.
Toyota President Akio Toyoda will deliver the remarks Wednesday to the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee. The prepared testimony was released ahead of time.
The head of Toyota's U.S. sales arm, as well as outside safety experts and Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, are testifying before Congress on Tuesday.
Toyota's president will tell Congress that the automaker grew too quickly in recent years, at times pursuing sales volume over safety and quality. He said the company plans to establish a quality center in the U.S. and hire an executive focused on product safety