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Toyota: Dems 'not industry friendly' (Politico)
"Toyota officials claimed they saved the company $100 million by successfully negotiating with the government on a limited recall of floor mats in some Toyota and Lexus vehicles, according to new documents shared with congressional investigators."
Toyota saved $100 million by limiting recall (MSNBC)
This is likely the same kind of thing said internally by all carmakers (except the two that took bailout money) and for that matter, most big corporations. Everyone knows the Republicans are the business person's friends.
What are the odds that Toyota will be number one after that bunch in Congress get done with them??
There was this in the Politico article too:
“While the administration may have changed, the bureaucracy itself has not and we must ensure that government regulators give every possible consumer concern its due diligence,” said Republican Oversight spokesman Kurt Bardella."
Btw everyone, we have the Obama discussion for the real political hash, so let's not get too carried away in here please.
from http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35510079/ns/business-autos/
I don't want to hear any apologists talking about Ford choosing to risk a few lives for lack of a $5 rubber pad between the differential and gas tank. Toyota has topped them all. What's a few lives if the Safety Group can save millions by delaying safety regulations and avoiding defect investigations.
Remember the Sancutti employed by toyo who used to be at NHSTA??? Intentional. And they did stall of DEFECT INVESTIGATIONS for years, closer to a decade maybe.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
They also will resist defect investigations if they can avoid them. Some do a quick voluntary recall to stop any investigations that might be in the works.
This is nothing new, but of course the public is largely unaware of any such things except in rare cases like the Pinto gas tank, the Corvair rollovers, and perhaps the decades-long fight in getting airbags in cars.
In truth, such actions are in line with standard corporate practice, with few exceptions. That's why we still have polluted air and water in too many of our metro areas, for example.
I think the scope of this is going to grow exponentially. This is just the tip of the iceberg for Toyota. This is going to get worse, much worse, for Toyota, before it gets better.
No wonder Mr. Toyoda didn't want to speak to Congress.
>all automakers behave in the same manner, even Mercedes and pre-Ford Volvo.
I just don't buy the "everybody else does it so it's okay for toyota to have done it for 8 years" logic.
I've seen a lot of posts about how GM did this, therefore it's okay for toyota to do it now. However, tracking and collating the information has become much easier in the recent decade; the patterns were present and ignored and/or covered up by toyota. So I assume this means all the people who criticized GM and other companies for minor past problems are now saying it was really okay and those who criticized them were wrong.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
If they drag up every issue of the last 15 years, nothing will be accomplished. Better to focus on the issue at hand and handle other things later.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Staying focused on Toyota problems is difficult. As they have at least 4 areas currently under recall. SUA, brakes, rust and steering. Not much left but fenders falling off. Well I guess they do have tailgate issues:
Toyota said that it's aware of the issue but has received few complaints so far, and the cause is under investigation. Also, any owners affected by metal separation on their tailgates can visit a Toyota dealer, who will fix or replace the tailgate under warranty if it's determined the damage occurred under normal use.
Don't sit on the tailgate :sick:
If they didn't have their service writers telling everyone who complained about UA there there was nothing wrong, no problem, you must have hit the accelerator instead of the brake, etc., maybe they would have collected some anecdotal data that there IS something wrong.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I think Toyota needs to go back to 1990 and relearn what made them a top auto maker.
what people need to realize, and the GM CEO said this a few weeks ago, this is being made into a GM/Ford vs Toyota deal and it shouldn't be, this thing with Toyota hurts the entire auto industry no matter what country the company is from! these problems with Toyota is going to but some serious doubt and lower confidence in the American consumer, at least it does for me, that any auto manufacture you buy from does not have your best interest at heart
GM, Ford, and Chrysler did not just get criticized for supposed "minor problems" - they were far from minor but that is not the point - what is coming to light with Toyota was suppose to be all gone in the auto industry and everyone was suppose to learn from the lessons that got GM, Ford, and Chrysler into the trouble they were recently in and it hasn't; Toyota was suppose to be, at least in the public perception, the last company left to have a untarnished reputation and put the customer first - unfortunately we are just at the tip of the iceberg of finding out that with Toyota that couldn't have been further from the truth; this has shaken public trust in the entire auto industry because if Toyota can do it then any auto manufacture is capable
but I think many on here think that because GM and Ford were criticized for so many years, and rightly so, that it should be a complete Toyota hate feast! I'm not saying Toyota shouldn't be criticized, they absolutely should, but it doesn't have to get so nasty to the point people are happy to see Toyota failing and how it negatively affects the millions of Americans who own and drive their products; unfortunately, Toyota and their vehicles have become very intertwined into the American economy and population so that anything that happens negatively with Toyota really hurts us, just like it did with GM, Ford, and Chrysler because of how intertwined those companies, too an even greater extent, are with the US economy and general population!
"Two Wrongs Don't Make a Right!"
Just as GM, Ford, and Chrysler had to re-evaluate and restructure their companies, I think when all this is said and done with Toyota, they to are going to have to re-evaluate/reassess their company and make many changes to their corporate and production departments along with making and changing their safety, consumer, and other corporate policies if they are ever going to gain the public's trust again
Too many people come on edmunds just to bash a company, that is why when I criticize GM for all the problems I had with them I also try to give some constructive criticism for things I think they need to change to make their company better; I also give some kudos to GM and Ford for some of the changes they have made over the last few years, most I think which are beneficial to them; Toyota is going to get raked over the coals for this but let remember that in the grand scheme of things the American consumer is the one who gets hurt more than the company when stuff like this happens! Have some compassion to the Toyota owners, who some are now in a similar position to past GM, Ford, and Chrysler owners, and hope that Toyota gets in big trouble so that the Toyota consumers can get some help for their problem vehicles!
I hope that recall and other automotive laws get changed by the gov't because I truly think, and this latest thing with Toyota shows, that no auto manufacturer really has the consumers best interest and safety at heart; they are only concerned with making as much money as possible and being number 1 (its interesting to note, that the largest and number 1 auto manufactures are the ones with the most amount of complaints and recalls ie. Toyota, GM, and Ford
I know the Senators from CT, NY, and NJ are trying to draft a bill so that it becomes law that all auto manufactures who issue any kind of recall, minor or major, are required by law that they must notify the customer and must repair the vehicle! lets hope that goes through!
IMO, they should be in a seat right beside Toyota.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
A lot of people are asking that question. My cousin is a dyed in the wool Toyota fan. She had two Cressidas, one my aunt still drives. A late1990s Camry. She bought a 2007 Camry and the love affair died. She does not like the new one. It stays parked in the garage. She drives the 90s Camry most of the time. Said the new one is like driving around in a big bowl of jello.
Oh, and what about the Woz and his flaky Prius Cruise Control? Will he be called to testify?
To ignore the problem and in fact go to GREAT lengths to hide the problem is a totally different issue. Toyota has relied on these techniques for decades, more will come to light as the investigation continues and that is what toyota is fighting hardest for - to keep the whole story from the public!
How many more vehicles would have been affected without dragging their collective feet?
How many complaints were dismissed by Toyota and were never filed as a result of the owner getting frustrated with Toyota's explanation (or lack thereof)?
I'm feeling, as big as the issue is from what we know now, it will be much bigger when all the facts come out.
As important, how much longer will Toyota owners have to wonder if their vehicle is truly safe to drive? And, what can they do with them if they've already lost faith in the safety of their vehicle?
hopefully, now that Toyota is being spot lighted for these problems, I just hope the rest of the auto industry gets the message that you can't just ignore and poo poo off your customers when they come in about a potential safety/mechanical problem with their car and that anytime they do you need to take them seriously and really try to investigate and find out what the problem is! they dealerships and companies don't seem to understand, we have better things to do with our lives then making things up and bringing our vehicles in to the service department for fun! Pretending their is no problem and burying your head in the sand doesn't go to help anyone, and unfortunately Toyota is going to find that out the hard way!
Toyota, in an internal presentation in July 2009 at its Washington office, said it saved $100 million or more by negotiating an "equipment recall" of floor mats involving 55,000 Toyota Camry and Lexus ES350 vehicles in September 2007.
The savings are listed under the title, "Wins for Toyota — Safety Group." The document cites millions of dollars in other savings by delaying safety regulations, avoiding defect investigations and slowing down other industry requirements.
One month later, 4 people were killed in San Diego by a runaway Lexus ES350.
Toyota had a reputation for quality which drove many people to purchase their vehicles (myself included). I owned an 85 Corolla SR5, a 2002 Solara SE and currently drive a 2006 Solara SLE V6. But when I was shopping for a new car to replace my 02 Solara, I test drove the Avalon and current generation Camry and was disappointed with the qualities in both vehicles. There was misaligned gaps and cheap materials throughout the cars. Toyota had let their quality slip and it was evident in these cars. Luckily, my current Solara exhibited Toyota's expected level of craftmanship.
The media has reported on Toyota's efforts to hide these acceleration defects and I'm now reading about acceleration problems leading back to the 96 Camrys, which is disturbing to think this acceleration problem may have continued through several generations of Camrys. I'm still perplexed as to why the Solara has not been included in the recall, considering it is essentially a two door Camry.
One issue that many people may not be aware of is a few years ago there was numerous reports of oil sludge developing in Toyota's V-6 engines (3.0 L I believe). Toyota refused to acknowledge there was a problem and, it looks like with the blessing of NHTSA, never had to issue a recall. Only those owners who protested enough, and had documentation showing they did routine oil changes, had repairs comped by Toyota.
Even before this whole acceleration scandal broke out, I decided my next car would not be a Toyota (or Lexus or Scion) due to their slip in quality. It's one thing to have a problem (cars are complex and all with all some sort of problem, minor or otherwise). But to go to great lengths to hide them and conspire with a federal agency (yes, NHTSA, you demonstrated perfectly how ineffective a government agency can be) cannot be condone. It took twenty plus years for Toyota to garner their reputation, it will take twenty plus years before I look at their vehicles. There are too many other good cars out there worthy of my attention.
That they have taken such great lengths to hide, dismiss, deflect serious safety issues befuddles me. 'And obviously, has put them in the mess they now find themselves in. That they so blatantly have ignored their customers complaints, and basic fundamental rules regarding the safety and quality of their vehicles, is something that had to be permeated throughout the company. And, it had to be a shift that came over a period of time, from the very top reaches of their management structure. At some point (10 years ago/ 15 years ago?) Toyota made the decision to put "cheapness" above safety and quality.
We've all seen the complaints from the reviewers stating that the quality of Toyota's vehicles has dropped precipitously over the past few years. I never thought that would permeate into being unsafe, however. I suppose it goes hand in hand. No reason to think that slipping quality wouldn't manifest itself into unsafe vehicles, too. Of course, this is all 20-20 hindsight. It's easy to see, now that all the issues are starting to be inspected more closely.
This is going to get worse before it gets better. Toyota is going to be under a magnifying glass, with a spotlight on them. Whatever money they've saved by going "cheap" is already gone. There's been a suggestion that they may have lost a whole generation of buyers. Don't know about that. But, with the recalls, the declining resale, the lack of faith by future potential customers, I hope the lesson is learned.
If not, and they continue down this same path, they're going to be worse off than GM, Ford and Chrysler, circa the 1980s-early 1990s, combined
http://www.leftlanenews.com/house-panel-determines-toyota-misled-public.html
Funky floormats and reports of unintended acceleration aren't simply a Toyota problem - that's why the editors looked at the mats in all the fleet vehicles.
In other news, "Edmunds.com's analysis of NHTSA data shows no clear pattern in terms of the number of consumer complaints that trigger an agency investigation. As few as five complaints have triggered an investigation; other investigations haven't started until 1,500 complaints had accumulated," noted Edmunds.com Senior Analyst Michelle Krebs in her report on AutoObserver.com.
Edmunds.com Questions NHTSA Inconsistencies, Compares Chevy Cobalt and Toyota Corolla Steering Complaints (dBusiness News)
I am now regretting purchasing my 4Runner in December and feel a bit slighted by this "Company". I do not like driving my Toy any longer....
Just one HONEST example of how this thing with Toyota is being blown out of proportion. This hysteria reminds me of the "War of the Worlds" radio broadcast.
NHTSA is the real problem here. They should be junked.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I used to admire them. Now, in the face of the UA, the brakes, the sludge (which I didn't used to believe to be a Toyota problem, but have since changed me mind) and the myriad of other issues, they've dropped far, far down. Their main problem isn't the massive recalls (although that's huge), it's the fact that they've tried to hide their safety problems.
Certainly I respect your opinion, but at this point I am going to wait until I have more hard evidence. I can always change my mind later, and I will without hesitation if I feel it is warranted...but I still remember Audi.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
this brought up their residual values for leasing, so a lot of people leased them for 3 years and replaced them with another one. if the original owner had a problem, it was an portrayed as an anomaly, so they let it slide.
subsequent owners, if they had problems, got the 'prior owner must have abused it' response.
it is an obvious change in performance.
Not sure where that number came from. Looking at the ODI complaints on just the 2009-10 Corolla there are more than 296 complaints on steering. A quick scroll lists them from at least as far back as August 2008. Something was changed in the Corolla steering for 2009-10. The 2006-07-08 Corolla only has 26 total complaints on steering.
PS
I agree on dumping the NHTSA along with several dozen other Federal agencies.
This a close version of the video ran by ABC news tonight as their lead story. In the version I saw on the broadcast, Professor Gilbert stated moisture, corrosion, and wear can cause this to happen. I can only guess that ABC has several versions of different edits of this video.
Well said, I agree completely. I didn't bash GM before, so I don't see a reason for going for the jugular with Toyota. But there are some in here ready to dance on Toyota's grave.
but let remember that in the grand scheme of things the American consumer is the one who gets hurt more than the company when stuff like this happens!
Luckily for me, it won't matter. My Camry are old enough to not have the alleged problems, plus I plan to keep them for a very long time, so any diminished resale value won't matter.
In my experience with 2 of their Camrys, they were still fine through the 2002-06 generation. I've had virtually no problems with my two in a combined 115K miles of driving.
They did not hire a top NHTSA person. Chris Tinto (now a VP) was hired from NHTSA in 1994 when he was only 32. Chris Santucci, now 39, was hired 7 years ago. It's certainly unfair to be ragging on Tinto when he left NHTSA well before Toyota had these alleged problems. Even Santucci came aboard only at the onset of these troubles.
There is a lot of transfer of talent between the agency and industry, which makes sense because there is a relatively small cadre of engineers well versed in safety and regulatory issues. There are no legal restrictions on such transfers for lower level staff.