By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
How could you miss with a combination like that? :sick: ">
There's your problem right there Gary !! TV today is exponentially better than it was in 1990 !!! So is the NFL !!!
I really thought of pointing out the average age of SUA is pertinent to the discussion. And not intended to mean anything else.
http://overlawyered.com/2010/03/toyota-acceleration-why-im-skeptical/
NHTSA hired NASA because they did not have the inhouse expertise to investigate auto electronics. And National Academy of Science Study is a research study on all auto manufacturers.
Gagrice just mentioned two UK engineers did find a problem. Dr Gilbert had found a preliminary problem and gave testimony at hearing. Governemnt expert counsultion engineers were impresssed with Gilbert study preliminary findings. These were only just a beginning to justify. as one of several factors, for further research studies that Oversight Committee requested NHTSA to conduct.
On Big Ben's TD carry he even admitted he didn't reach the goal line, yet the stupid bought-off ref called it a TD.
Did you notice Darryl Turner's supposed "push-off" on the Stealer defender on his TD catch they actually called back? Didn't happen! The list goes on and on.
When people put down Mike Holmgren for criticizing the officiating they are merely showing you that they're happy their bet made them some money. Never before has their been such a sports farce as Super Bowl 40.
So, unfortunately, the NFL and especially the Big Poo-Bah of sports events, The Super Bowl, is subject to the evils of betting and just the stupidity of the NFL front office's power in wanting a certain team to win. The 2006 Super Bowl was intended by the NFL front office to be an AFC team the winner. Period. They wanted it to be that way.
Google this one if you doubt what I say. The referee crew for Super Bowl 40 was informed by the NFL front office that they may never ever referee another Super Bowl again. Why might that be? Anyone smell an Akron, OH, sewer rat besides this Seattle Seahawk diehard? We will not forget the injustice of Super Bowl 40.
Then David Stern and the NBA steal the Sonics away and send them to, of all the places, Oklahoma City, OK? Eeek!
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
since the throttle pedals were cut down, there seem to be fewer problems reported.
But all the folks here are saying that there's no artifact of the interference found in the system afterwards, therefore, just as toyota-lexus' PR machine is trying to propagate, there must be no electronic component to the runaway accelerations that occurred prior to toyo messing with the accelerator pedals and reprogramming them.
NOT. :P
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
NHTSA is doing studies at present addressing issues involving age, contributing factors for human errors. Medicine does studies all the time to help staff function efficiently and quickly too. College major exist in this area too.
1. I believe the vast majority of drivers are veterans, whereby like myself, we have years of driving experience on the road. Now, ask yourself, have you EVER pressed on the wrong pedal ? Like you brake when you want to gas and vice versa ?
I for one NEVER got my pedals wrong. And I believe 99.999% of us all also never press the wrong pedal. My experience tells me that the driving habit and our legs are so INGRAINED in our subconscious that we don't even think about it. We just automatically press the right pedal, every day, every hour etc...Like breathing. Do you think about it ? Are you exhaling or inhaling now ? You don't.
2. EVEN if one of us someday DO press the wrong pedal, how long does it take to correct ourself ? 1 second should do right ? I mean come on, you want to brake, oops, you stepped on the gas pedal. Don't tell me you realize yr error after SEVERAL minutes, or even FIVE SECONDS ? And by then its too late ! You have crashed into another car, ruined a building, went into a river or cliff like some of those runaway toyotas ?
No heavens ! You will realize it almost instantly and correct immediately. You don't crash into something in only 1 second of Error ! Unless you are speeding at say 400 mph and maybe 1 second lapse in reaction may result in SUA toyota like crashes. Right ?
3. I do have my mini crashes, but its all because of my brief carelessness, for example when reversing, I did not notice that small pole and hit it, or almost hit another car because I wasn't paying enough attention or visibility was bad or whatever, but NEVER did I almost hit another car or something because I stepped on the wrong pedal ! Or I FAILED To hit the brakes.
4. If indeed many Americans are that careless, and it takes many Americans what 10 seconds ? 20 seconds before they realize they are making a mistake, WHY IS IT that only toyota drivers make such errors and result in casualties or death, AT HIGH SPEEDS mind you ?
Why is it that we hardly hear in the news cases like those runaway toyotas happen also to Nissan drivers, Hyundai drivers, Honda drivers etc ???
I smell something amiss if someone or some organization say its driver's fault for not stepping on the brakes or mistepping the gas for the brakes, that result in serious accidents. Yes, if the brake pedal does not work, it WILL, but thats NO DRIVER ERROR !
You just hardly hear a Nissan, Ford, Honda etc. running away like that and crashing at high speeds nowadays. Do you ?
Try this folks, after work, TRY to step on the gas pedal when you really want to brake or stay at constant speed. I have tried and I tell you, its almost hard to do, because my LEG, BRAIN connection is already so wired that I just cannot make even a DELIBERATE mistake.
And have any of you EVER heard any of yr friends, relatives, whoever tell you " Gee, I almost crashed today because I hit the wrong pedal ! ". Or " I almost crashed because I failed to hit the brakes ".
Maybe its my human survival instinct, years of driving experience, and the deep fear that knows stepping on the wrong pedal just don't have any benefits, that result in me never making such an error.
Do you ?
I know your being "a little" sarcastic. I am younger than you, but not by much. That being said I can tell you my reflexes are not as swift as they used to be. I think the reflexes go gradually and you really don't notice.
So no matter how big toyota is, its still a FACT that non-toyotas still dominate the market.
Now, do you think only toyota have old customers ? Old drivers ? Sick people on medication ? Common sense tells me that it should be quite evenly distributed, I mean, there are old and sick drivers buying any brand.
Now imagine the statistics, the odds ? WHY is it that toyota drivers have so many SUA cases and the OTHER 90% brands have so little ? Unless the odds that 90% of old people, sick people tend to prefer toyota for a reason. But if you accept that all brands have their share of old and sick customers, you will realize that :
toyota's cases are STATISTICALLY VERY VERY SIGNIFICANT. If you draw a SUA statistical graph that takes into account the percent of toyota cases vs non-toyotas and incorporate the fact that toyota's market share is not even close to 20%, you will have a GIANT BULGE going up in that graph in toyota's favour.
Unless toyota have a market share of 90% then I accept what you say. Do they ?
Yes, its true that you don't see toyotas crashing into another everyday, but this still DOES NOT cancel the fact that percentage wise, toyota have the biggest market share of their defects that result in SUA. Far more than other brands.
Recently yes its quiet. Why ? Maybe toyota have found the answer, perhaps its really software, and they have quietly fixed it while not telling the world that its their electronics (the news will be shocking, and highly damaging, because people will think " What if there are future glitches again ?). toyota knew this kind of news CANNOT be admitted.
Or maybe the press realized that toyota's advertisement money is very big indeed, and that they had better stop reporting new cases before toyota Lose their temper and cut off all future advertising ?
If one looks at the many dubious past deals toyota has done with NHTSA and other cases, don't blame me for suspecting that toyota did it again, struck deals with the press, DOT or whatever. After all, will you be surprised if, for example, an ex-convict, just out from jail, strikes again and rob another bank ?
I would'nt.
Oh, I completely agree, but us old guys have to stick up for each other.
Lots of dairy farmers have won lawsuits against utility companies for stray voltage, but I think that's a ground fault issue more than a powerline issue.
Unless you can prove that 90% of all oldies and sickos in the US buy toyotas and does not buy the OTHER 90% non-toyotas, this point is IRRELEVANT.
Come on guys, Nissan, Hyundai, GM, Ford, Honda, all have their SHARE of old and sick customers on medication. Combined, their market share is 90-95% of the market.
With all respects SIR !!! Pls keep this in mind.
So - you would think that California would be rampant it SUA. But it's not happening.
The point is NOT IRRELEVANT.
How about all the cases of SUA, where the driver shifts into neutral and pulls to the side of the road and calls the dealer to pick up his Toyota? Do you really think that Toyota reports those numbers? If the customer is taken care of they will not report the problem to NHTSA. That is probably why the numbers have gone down. It was all those years of the customers being told there is no problem that built up a huge backlog of complaints.
Toyota is taking a proactive role and the complaints to the authorities have dropped. That does not mean there are less cases of SUA with ToyLex vehicles. Remember there were 1000s of complaints and only a hundred or so accidents. I am a firm believer in the saying "Where there is smoke, there is fire".
Remember the same exact car had the mat cause the sticking accelerator before it happened to Saylor.
Edit: from post 8931, the article quoted:
Bernard noticed the floor mat had become stuck under the accelerator pedal
Same exact car, not just the same model, that particular vehicle.
It was NHTSA and Automotive News editors. Keith Crane and now another editor.
Toyota leaked the info early, but it did turn out to be true.
Here's where I partially agree, partially disagree.
Toyota has been cutting costs to save pennies and increase profits, they squeeze suppliers, and quality is dropping. No question about that.
Where I believe they went wrong was in trying to take care of these cases quickly and avoid NHTSA involvement. In other words they tried to keep it under wraps.
This thread is full of pro-domestic fans jumping on the opportunity to criticize Toyota. Let's face it, they're having a field day.
Now, where I disagree is the cause of UA. I've said all along most cases were driver error, and the numbers from NHTSA prove that's accurate.
Remember - per what you said above, the people filing complaints with NHTSA were the ones that were NOT happy, i.e. NOT taken care of by Toyota. These are the angry owners with property damage and injuries. Most of those cases didn't even have the brakes applied.
Bernard witnessed the mats getting stuck, but we know there's a bit more to it than just that because otherwise those CTS pedals would never have been recalled. So there was some sort of mechanical or sensor failure, too.
You lose me when you believe Sikes, dismiss Bernard as a puppet of Toyota's, and offer conspiracy theories about the electronics.
Remember - the cruise control failures were from aftermarket non-Toyota units. The Toyota OEM cruise were the ones not recalled.
To sum it up:
Quality dropped? Yes
Suppliers squeezed cause reduction in quality controls? Yes
Floor mats caused UA? Yes (Bernard, for example)
Throttle pedal caused UA? Yes (recalls)
but...
Sikes honest? No way, no how
Saylor UA caused by electronics (same car as Bernard)? No way
Most UA cases caused by? Driver error, per NHTSA report by unhappy owners
HOWEVER:
There is physical evidence in many cases from the "black box" that the brake pedal was not depressed in many of the cases.
So, if the brake pedal was not depressed, which pedal WAS? That's right. It was a clear case of "wrong pedal disease," also known as "pedal misapplication."
It is a proven phenomenon. It's not speculation. Google it.
My point all along has been...
Show me a real-world test that can be duplicated under controlled conditions where UA is demonstrated (and duplicated), and you have a believer in UA (regardless of manufacturer). That's the problem/flaw with Dr. Gilbert's work.
Frankly, I believe its possible, but so are an entire host of other things that don't actually happen.
My question is... For all of those convinced that UA is real..."What, if anything, would convince you UA doesn't exist, or at best, is so unlikely to occur, that for all intents and purposes, doesn't exist as a real possibility?"
IMO, if one can't submit a reasonable answer to that question, they are simply product bashing...in this particular case, Toyota.
How do you know they weren't applied? You have no definitive proof beyond a doubt because of the EDR's lack of efficacy with toyotas. And many of these in the toyota PR are ones toyota got to _first_. I wouldn't trust them to bury my grandma properly after the shenanigans they've pulled relative to rules and laws in the US during the last 8 years--see NHTSA.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Correction: there is no remaining evidence in toyota's EDR that the pedal was depressed. That does not mean it was not depressed--just that the black box didn't record or the system wasn't working properly. AND if they had been working properly we wouldn't have been having the reports of runaway motors, would we. But toyota got hold of the one from the camry-avalon driven to the dealer by putting the car into and out of drive. That driver didn't seem to have trouble know which pedal he was pushing as the fanatics want to claim. After toyota-lexus got that box, we then had the pedal recall and access to the vehicles by toyota to connect them to their updates.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Brakes weren't applied by drivers ...U.S. auto-safety regulators said after studying data recorders.
This is not data that came from Toyota, and AN is not just trying to sell papers like the WSJ is.
Prove it.
If they're in the government's possession surely they will find these codes to erase unwanted data as you speculate.
Use the BRAKE, please !!!
WASHINGTON — Driver error has caused most of the Toyota crashes probed for suspected unintended acceleration, according to preliminary findings by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
Federal investigators told Congress on Tuesday that the brakes weren't applied in 35 of the 58 cases reviewed thus far, meaning that drivers hit the accelerator pedal when they intended to apply the brakes. The findings are based on "black box" or event data recorders taken from the vehicles and appear to back Toyota's frequent claims that its vehicles have no electronic defects. Last week, Toyota said it has checked 4,000 vehicles without finding any electronic defect."
No reason to blame Toyota's electronics
Like me, he doesn't let Toyota off the hook:
This doesn't mean Toyota shouldn't have dealt with the floor mats and sticky pedals years earlier.
Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20100811/BLOG02/100819974/-1#ixzz0wPAvDEsy
Another thing - the conspiracy theory that Toyota's coding removes codes of brake application is a stretch because it would have required the foresight to predict this issue would have crept up in the first place.
Read more: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100810/OEM/100819988/1424#i- xzz0wPCvMZGm
That's from the other article from August 10th, updated August 11th.
From...http://www.statemaster.com/graph/trn_lic_dri_tot_num-transportation-licen- sed-drivers-total-number
With approx. 200 million drivers in the US, even with 99.999%, there's still a fair amount of leftover drivers there...
Same exact car, not just the same model, that particular vehicle.
And the first driver got the mat unstuck. Saylor wasn't able to. But why didn't he shift to neutral or turn off the car? Or did he try?
I find it funny that a Toyota thread is full of Mopar fans, GM fans, and Ford fans.
Nothing will convince them. They WANT to believe that little gremlins are in these cars, and nothing will convince them otherwise.
How else do you explain the eagerness to believe and support a porn peddler? The non-response to posts like yours and Keith Crain's story about Toyota being the victim this time (not a single comment on that).
Let me search that one ....
Nothing quite like being totally objective in one's point of view...
He then reached down and moved the mat with his hand, but did not say where he grabbed the mat. He said he didn't think it was attached using the retaining hook, as he was able to move it.
This means Bernard did *not* reach the gas pedal while driving, which seems very difficult to begin with.
Saylor was going at higher speeds and was not able to stop the car to do the same thing Bernard did.
Most puzzling.
A drop in complaints would be expected post extreme high news publicity. A rise would be expected during the publicity stage. Both of above are due to multiple factors.
Toyota PR attempting to use a decrease in complaint numbers as a positive corporate stance problem recalls worked - is good PR stance for Toyota, but is not all as they claim. Implementation independent brake override systems will help decrease the number of complaints/incidents in most SUA Cause Factor Categories.
My concerns about the actual number of SUA complaint reports - not accurate/all inclusive but does reveal some good information statistically.
(1)NHTSA consumer complaint data base is only voluntary.
(2)Most complaints are only lodged at the manufacturers dealerships. Dealerships do not have to prove that they give all complaints to NHTSA, and as found out during oversight hearings more complaints were submitted than what NHTSA had. Did Toyota give all the complaints lodged? I am more inclined to doubt they did, as I am quite familiar with insider corporate approach/action strategies for major problems. Toyota hiring Exponent reveals Toyota will use lie reports to defend. This is what Exponent does, and they have been caught publicly in past. I have posted some of my Exponent damaging links I have had for several years in past here. Oversight Committe is not happy with Exponent either, per government documents.
(3)Many people do not lodge complaints for one incident if problem minor, etc. & doesn't occur again - various scenerios/reasons exist.
(4)Etc.
Hopefully ben66 read that paragraph.
Listening to that 911 call was heart breaking. Call was shorter and accident then happened quickly. May have been why no details were on 911 call recording..