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What if Bin Laden offers to turn himself in to the US in exchange for the US giving ownership rights of GM to the Taliban? :P
If... and that's a BIG IF, everything about Toyota youv'e said and are saying is/was true, then I'd agree, it is criminal.
However, I've always maintained that the lemons :lemon: the big 3 sold during the greater part of my lifetime has also been very criminal and downright fraudulent.
Big 3 vehicles should be sold just like BIC razors, with the words DISPOSABLE written all over it.
Oh my God, that is a good thought. toyota-lexus should start labeling their vehicles with that because of all the problems they've had with misleading and avoiding that are being exposed.
Of course now they're _steering_ :P people wrong when they buy toyota-lexus with their faulty steering columns. Electronics, pedals, floor mats, steering columns, on the cars, to ignore some of the other steering link problems they recalled in other countries but not in their money pie, the US.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
But, if you insist on being "proven" here are some links for your perusal:
Google it.
Good. My life experience is that my Buicks and GM products have had good tire quality.
I don't see that you provided any data for your opinion, but thanks anyway.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I'm happy that you are pleased with your GM OEM tires.
Welcome to the vast minority.
Notice I didn't put down your opinion.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
But then you make a completely unrelated &, to my mind, unsupported, point: "They [presumably the U.S. government] also manipulated public opinion and that is deeply ingrained in our culture."
In this particular post, you don't specify what the purpose of this supposed manipulation was, but your previous post left me with the impression that our government engaged in this to induce American consumers to buy Japanese goods. Nothing that I've read supports this.
It's one thing to say that from the late 1940s on - certainly after the outbreak of the Korean War - our policymakers wanted a stable, pro-U.S. Japan that could serve as a forward base in East Asia. Few would argue with that. But it's quite another to assert that to achieve this, the U.S. government manipulated consumer opinion to facilitate Japanese imports.
Let's put aside the fact that consumer opinion is notoriously difficult to manipulate, as any marketing expert would tell you. The chief weakness of this assertion is that it violates a basic principle of logic: the best explanation for a given phenomenon is the simplest explanation that accounts for all the facts. (Yes, I was a philosophy & logic major.) And there are simpler, more convincing explanations of Japanese success: mainly, that the Japanese were good at identifying underserved niches in the marketplace. For example, as I mentioned earlier, Japanese camera makers took advantage of German tardiness in re-entering that market after WWII.
Here's another. The top-selling import in the U.S. throughout the 1960s was the VW Beetle. Household income was rising then, & many families became 2-car households for the 1st time. (I'm old enough to recall that in the 50s, even affluent families rarely owned more than 1 car.) But if you wanted a VW Beetle then, you either had to know how to drive a stick or be willing to learn, because automatic wasn't an option.
In 1966, Toyota introduced the Corona, which was the 1st popular-priced import to offer a fully automatic transmission. Sure, it was a knockoff of the old 2-speed Chevy Powerglide, but it gave buyers who couldn't or wouldn't drive a stick an option. (VW countered 2 years later with a semi-automatic. The clutch pedal was gone, but you still had to shift. As always, the Germans were a day late & a dollar short.) By the mid-70s, Toyota was the #1 import in the U.S. market, while VW had fallen to 4th place.
There's no evidence of public manipulation here - just smart design & marketing decisions.
I generalized that anyone who thinks carmakers don't try to cut costs by reducing the money they spend on OEM tires is just wrong.
Opinions can be respected and still be wrong, right?
BTW - the putting of Michelins on the cars really must have helped GM's bottom line - they are doing so WELL financially. LOL
(1)EDR's are not presently regulated by US Law.
(2)US Law has not been implemented to date. Implementation of present law not until 2012-2013
(3)Legally auto manufacturers do not have to be in compliance/meet compliance/have EDR's per present US Law.
(4)EDR readout information is highly questionable for validity. Auto manufacturers presently can do anything they want with their EDR information. No law presently governs.
HISTORY
From 1998 to 2001, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) sponsored a working group specifically tasked with the study of EDRs. After years of evaluation, NHTSA released a formal Notice of Proposed Rulemaking in 2004. This notice declared NHTSA’s intent to standardize EDRs. It was not until August 2006 that NHTSA released its final ruling (49 CFR Part 563). The ruling was lengthy (207 pages), consisting of not only definitions and mandatory EDR standards, but also acted as a formal reply to the dozens of petitions received by NHTSA after the 2004 notice.
In the August 2006 ruling, NHTSA set a time table for all vehicle manufacturers to be in compliance with the new EDR standards. The compliance date was originally set for all vehicles manufactured after September 1, 2010. NHTSA has since updated its ruling (49 CFR Part 563 Update) to give vehicle manufacturers until September 1, 2012 to be in compliance with the original ruling.
NEW 2010 US Law 2010 NOT PASSED,AND STILL IN DRAFT STAGE.
http://energycommerce.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=201- 3:full-committee-markup&catid=141:full-committee&Itemid=85#5381
http://energycommerce.house.gov/documents/20100526/HR5381.Motor.Vehicle.Safety.A- ct.Section-by-Section.05.26.2010.pdf
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-0712-toyota-legislation-20100712,0,3421670- .story?page=1
TOYOTA PAST/PRESENT POSTITIONS ON EDR DATA
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-0729-toyota-blackbox-20100729,0,5008343.st- ory
I only posted this newer article, but have many savd bookmarked past articles revealing similiar reports. Did not attempt to find or post today.
MY PRESENT POSTION REGARDING INFORMATION AUTO MANUFACTORS EDR DATA READOUT
(1)I fully support auto manufacturers being required to have EDR's.
(2)I can not objectively rely upon any manufacturers EDR data readout information. No law governs or makes manufacturers meet standards/actually comply to the standards/EDR readout information with present law as it exists today.
(3)Law requires auto manufacturers meet EDR compliance/implementation 2012/2013. LAW HAS NOT TAKEN EFFECT TO DATE.
NEW YORK – Toyota is recalling nearly half a million cars, most of them large sedans sold in the U.S., for problems that can cause the steering wheel to lock up. It's the latest indication that the automaker is still struggling with vehicle problems even as it works to overhaul quality control.
The recall, announced Thursday, affects 412,000 vehicles in the U.S. — 373,000 Avalon sedans and 39,000 Lexus LX 470 SUVs. The recall is Toyota's largest since announcing it would fix 600,000 Sienna minivans over rusting spare tire holders in April.
More Toyota recalls
In this respect toyota is no more guilty than any of the other mainstream carmakers, they only want to get by with the minimum regarding OEM tires. What concerns me with toyota is that they're also getting by with the minimum on interiors and the car's acceleration system, and acceleration systems are not something skimpable, huh? You can't have your motorcar suddenly decide it wants to go without your consent. Driving safety tips in the event of a toyota design failure should not be required content for passing your driver's exam.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
one thing you can count on is that you can do better than pretty much anyone's OEM tires.
For example, the semi recent scientific consensus that humans contribute greatly to global warming. Global warming and cooling does exits, although many actually believe that it is a proven scientific fact that humans are causing it and/or greatly contributing to it. Whether we are or not, there is just no real scientific data to support it. Science is not a consensus. Yet, many people, including our VP, believe it to be scientific fact that humans are greatly impacting global warming.
Anyway jimbres, you are correct that it is very difficult to find any specific info about our govt manipulating public perception of Japanese products after WWII. After reading up on it, it appears the general media and American corporations fought any positive feedback on Japanese products. However, it does not take a genius to put two and two together to see why our government would want the perception of Japanese products to positively change as we spent huge amounts of money to rebuild them, especially during the begining of the cold war, nor do I think it’s any big leap or assertion. Our govt is all about manipulating public perception.
One of the few things I took with me from that class (20 years ago) was the Professor telling us the perception of Japanese products. Was it true or just a Professor’s own opinion? Common sense tells me it was very much at play. That does not take away the industry & manufacturing concepts adopted and the Japanese brilliance in making their products better either. That is what Japan has been known to do, is make other inventions better.
Japan in general and their products had a terrible reputation in American prior to WWII. There was a lot of negative American propaganda of the Japanese and vice versa. Of course our govt would want this to change once we started to rebuild that country and become strong allies.
On a personal note. I can remember in the 70’s & 80’s being told that Japanese cars were better built then American ones. What I remember seeing in those days were a lot of rusted out Japanese cars and that the doors were paper thin and over-all, Japanese made cars seemed just seemed cheap & wimpy compared to an American made one.
Even in this current day, many American cars are just as good or even better then a foreign car, yet the perception that foreign cars are better cars still exist, and that is deeply ingrained in our culture.
I was surprised that I could not find much to support the govt manipulating public perception of Japanese products after WWII. I wish I still had my college textbooks and notes. Here are some of the few links I could find.
BOOK: Embracing Defeat: Japan in the Wake of World War II by John W. Dower
http://www.drive-american.org/art1.htm
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geupzM5VJMPakAJt1XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEza292cDVyBHNlYwNz- cgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1kyWVkxXzg2/SIG=121dkvvg5/EXP=1280587596/**http%3a/- /photo.net/classic-cameras-forum/00G0m7
http://caliber.ucpress.net/doi/abs/10.1525/phr.2010.79.2.202?journalCode=phr
More?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Is any of this related to Toyota?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
So it's loosely tied to a previous thread, yes.
That's an understatement! :P
Tires on toyotas being poor quality, and therefore that all cars have poor tires OEM is the tenet to which I responding with a correction to the errors of the statements.
My GM cars have all had great quality original equipment tires (even the Hankook Chinese tires on my latest).
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That being said, if Toyota is putting lowest cost at the top of the list, they should follow Ford's lead, which has been providing much better tires on their vehicles.
Our '04 Escape had some horrible Continentals on it. I replaced them @28k with some Goodyear Fortera's just because of the noise. The Fortera's are somewhat quieter, but they still can't compete on a ride/quietness comparison the the Michelin's on our '09 Escape.
I don't recall hearing about tire noise complaints with the Camry, so maybe they don't skimp there. It could be an issue only with some of the other models.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.jsp?type=GTAS
The top 2 rated tires are a Michelin and a General.
I just replaced the Michelin Cross Terrains on my Explorer with a set of General HTS.
Saved over $300 over the Latitude Tour and as a LRR tire they delivering some great fuel mileage. Just as quiet and what surprised me is that the steering is a lot easier.
I don't remember which Michelins the Accord originally came with but they were like Fred Flintstone tires - they lasted a loooong time but were loud and didn't handle as well as any replacements I've put on it.
Funny thing, I just remembered that last week my BIL was complaining about how bad the Michelins on his RX350 are in any sort of snow accumulation.
I don't remember which model the were, but they had a much more car like tread pattern than the Cross Terrains (now called Latitude Tour).
Accord comes with Michelin Pilot MXM4 I believe. Again, another mid level (avg tire).
The only one I know of that comes with a top quality tire is the Nissan Altima 2.5SL which has the Michelin Primacy MXV4s, but you only get it with that trim level. The base Altima 2.5S comes with mediocre Continental ProContacts.
RX350 for instance comes with all season Michelin Latitude tires. Very highly rated and regarded but they are all season cross-over tires, which mean they are not a dedicated tire for winter weather driving and I would not expect them to be that great in snow, sleet, or ice accumulation since they are an all-season tire.
There is a rule I believe about the quieter the tire the softer the rubber and the shorter the life. A longer life tire will often give a louder tread noise. That often is mitigated in some ways but still shows on some types of contact surfaces -- road types.
> didn't handle as well as any replacements
The comparison of tires re handling and even noise is difficult. If I put on a new set of Michelins and drive for a week in typical driving I can compare with a set of Bridgestones the next week. But when we keep a tire for 4 years and use up 70% or more of its tread depth I cannot compare that tire's original grip, quiet, handling with the next tire because I'm comparing the worn tire with the brand new tire that I replaced it with.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Meanwhile, is Toyota on the mend for 2010?
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Minn. man convicted in Toyota crash to get hearing
by Jessica Mador, Minnesota Public Radio
August 2, 2010
http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2010/08/02/toyota-crash/
St. Paul, Minn. — A St. Paul man seeking a new trial to overturn his criminal vehicular homicide conviction gets a hearing on the matter starting Monday.
Koua Fong Lee, 32, has insisted that his car experienced "sudden unintended acceleration" when his 1996 Toyota Camry rammed another car killing three people. He said it's the same problem for which millions of other Toyotas have since been recalled.
Two experts hired by the Ramsey County attorney re-examined Lee's car in April and said they found no evidence of sudden acceleration.
Trudy Baltazar is organizing a demonstration in support of Lee outside the Ramsey County courthouse on Monday.
"I think the evidence that they have now on 1996 Camrys, even jurors have come forward and the victims of the family have come forward saying if we would had known this back then we never would have convicted him," Baltazar said
Ramsey County Attorney Susan Gaertner opposes a new trial, saying there is no evidence to prove Lee experienced sudden acceleration.
Both sides will present their arguments on whether Lee should get a new trial at Monday's hearing before Judge Joanne Smith.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I'm back, folks. :shades:
What's the standard for his conviction, guilty beyong a reasonable doubt?
It may be hard to disprove, but just as hard to prove, and that alone casts doubt on the case.
As we've seen it's incredibely hard to prove or disprove.
But... if he was convicted based on the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard, this casts reasonable doubt by the standards of most jurors, and could be the basis of an appeal.
I guess we'll see.
Well, by Toyota's own internal documents; read this:
AP: SANTA ANA, Calif. – Toyota Motor Corp. knew of at least six sudden acceleration incidents as early as 2003, including some that were verified by its own technicians and dealers, according to court documents filed Monday as part of sprawling litigation against the Japanese automaker.
Toyota documents
Toyota has blamed faulty floor mats and sticky accelerator pedals for the unintended acceleration. Some plaintiffs also claim Toyota's electronic throttle control system has a defect, but Toyota denies that allegation.
That is the only Toyota car up from July 09.