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As for the Odyssey, the trans issues don't seem to be to big a deal, sales are still increasing. It's a nice van. It's not like the Chrysler vans have a good rep. They've had all sorts of issues. My neighbor was the latest to defect. Traded in a POC Grand Caravan for a Oddy and they love it. I'll try to watch for the transmission falling out.
Ford and GM minivans were so awesome they stopped offering them.
I noticed that too. While I never found the '00-05 Impala to be very roomy in the back seat, the '06 model took the torture to a whole new level! I was surprised, as I had been under the impression that restyle was just cosmetic for the most part. But if they did something to modify the interior room, I'd think it was structural as well. Or, they might have just done something as simple as raised the height of the back seat, which would mess with headroom and knee room.
The new Taurus seems like a pretty impressive vehicle, almost too nice and upscale to be used as a fleet car!
When the new Taurus was introduced, I figured my wife would never have a shot at one, but one of her coworkers wrecked his GP (my wife has considered the same fate for her GP) and two weeks later he was delivered an '10 Taurus. My wife claims it's like being in a Mercedes compared to her previous company vehicles. We'll see, she has 3k more miles of torture in her GP, then she's eligible for a new car. Hopefully by spring she'll have a replacement as they generally order cars in lots.
While I never found the '00-05 Impala to be very roomy in the back seat
Well, you need to consider prior to my wife having an 01 Impala we had a '98 SVT Contour and a '00 Jetta TDI, so the Impala was a much larger and roomier car inside and out.
As I said, I like Hondas, but there is no excuse for all of these transmission troubles. It's an automatic transmission, not an engine that runs on seawater or some other form of high technology. I don't care how nice the rest of the vehicle is - I will not risk this type of failure, as we keep our vehicles for well over 100,000 miles.
Well then you should probably stop buying automobiles then. There is always a risk for an expensive repair.
My 07 Expedition has already cost me close to $2k between 60-70k miles and that doesn't include the $1500 I recently spent on brakes and tires, my previous Suburban cost me at least $6k in repairs for between 45-75k miles. If someone doesn't have a few thousand laying around for a rainy day, they have no business buying a $30-40k+ vehicle IMO.
OTOH, if I was on a tight budget and looking far a used minivan, I'd certainly think twice about an older Odyssey. I certainly wouldn't want to spend $10k on a used vehicle and turn around have to spend 40% of that amount on a transmission. But that's always a possibility.
With the domestics I own I keep telling myself after every 4 digit repair that it's still cheaper than buying a new one:(
Yes, there is always a risk of an expensive repair, but given the resources available today (such as this site - the threads on various vehicles are a valuable source of information), we can minimize that risk.
FWIW, my 2000 Intrepid cost me about $8700 in repairs/maintenance over the 10 years and 150,000 miles I had it. Biggest single expense was when the a/c compressor locked up and delf-destructed, to the tune of $1300. The single most expensive individual year was 2007, which spanned 126000-138000 miles. I spent around $2,000 that year, which included two front bearing hubs, new front brakes, new coolant and hoses (OEM hoses that were pretty expensive), new cooling lines to the radiator (again OEM, expensive, and labor intensive), an a/c recharge, two new front tires, a few bushings here and there, and probably a few things I'm forgetting right now.
I tend to lump repairs and maintenance together in recordkeeping, so it does sometimes cloud the statistics, I guess.
I've just been unlucky with my vehicles. I've not had one go near 100k miles w/o a substantial repair i.e. transmission rebuild, fuel pumps) a/c compressor failure, coil packs, hvac modules and other various electrical issues. I do all recommended maintenance. I always have all fluids changed (trans, diff, transfer case etc) at recommended intervals to no avail.
I even got shafted on a seemingly simple spark plug change. Had a coil pack go bad on the Expedition at 60k miles. Had the plugs changed during the process and Ford can't even design that right. 3 plugs broke off in the head resulting in 90 minutes of labor per plug, so a spark plug change cost me nearly $1k, it was an overnight job just to change spark plugs. I may dump it before the plugs have to be changed again. No way am I going to risk having to pull the heads on a high mileage vehicle.
I do look at maintenance/repair as cost of ownership and similar to the cost of buying a vehicle. I was looking at buying a new Denali or Sequoia before I stumbled on the used 1 year old Expedition I bought for 1/2 the price. So I started off well over $20k ahead.
I think it might show that many companies have a policy of buying US makes, and they look for the cheapest vehicles for their business.
You got a lot of good service out of that Intrepid. That car would have kept on going if the truck hadn't damaged it in the parking lot.
I think it might show that many companies have a policy of buying US makes, and they look for the cheapest vehicles for their business.
I was thinking the same thing. The two criteria for the county here are American nameplate and low bid. GM cars and Chrysler minivans pretty much. Doesn't make them bad but that's how they pick them.
diesel - just 3K left on your sentence? The end is in sight!
I had an 02 Ody that did have the tranny go but it did not cost me a nickle. Honda replaced it and rented me a replacement vehicle. When the van hit 120K I traded it for an 04 which at 75K is fine.
My SIL has an 04 they bought new. It now has 220K on it and no issues. Right now it's the main family vehicle. We just rode to Atlantic City (maybe 10 miles) in it with them and it was fine. Made in Alabama.
True, if I were to buy a Honda, I expect reliability and would be disappointed if something like a trans would fail. OTOH, I don't hold my domestic vehicles to the same standard. I go into it knowing something will break or fail that shouldn't. I've rarely been disappointed.
I've owned one Japanese vehicle, a 2001 Nissan Pathfinder LE. It was rock solid (much better than any Nissan I've sampled lately). It was incredibly tight and refined for a BOF SUV and Nissan's VQ 3.5 v6 was second to none at the time. I loved it, but I did have an o2 sensor fail around 23k miles and again at 50k and I was not happy something like that would fail twice as Nissan's at the time had a good reliability particularly with their v6 engines. Since it was leased, I turned it in with 60k and the tail pipe broke off on the way to the dealer! Obviously they didn't use stainless, but the leasing company never charged me for it. That said, even with the few minor issues it had, it was by far the best SUV I've owned in terms of build quality, refinement, and road manners. It drove like a sports car compared to the 01 Impala my wife had at the time. Plus I towed a 5k lb boat all over the country with it. It was tough as nails.
We also have an 04 and all is fine at 77K.
Just wanted to say he's right on that. I'm with county government and the cars they use lead long lives. By the time they get replaced and put into the county auction they are pretty well shot.
BTW - here's one for lemko - My dad passed two years ago. Last year I grabbed his topcoat which seemed to fit. A couple of days ago I wore it for the first time and love the thing. Botany 500. Made in USA.
and our highly trained tech's at Ford Fact will tell you that Ford is making a huge comeback. As for older cars check out the Texas Shelby 350 by Ford and the Pontac GTO or the Chevelle SS 396 or the Plymouth Road Runner with a
modest 440 6 pack ( 3, 2 barrel carbs ) or for big money ( 80 to 180 thousand
dollars ) depending on condition there is the famous Plymouth Super Bird. None of these look [non-permissible content removed] ! For newer cars lets look at the Corvette Stingray ZR1
or the Dodge Viper now that's American muscle that's hot. Don't leave out the best of the pack of 4x4's by Jeep always at 1st place. Just a thought.
American cars and saving American jobs as compared to buying imports that drive our unemployment up even higher that it is now. My friends won't even buy anything from Communist China this is becoming a huge issue today.
( even if they need it ). Those people buying imports are now being looked at as TRAITORS to our country. Stand united or just leave ! Try Japan
That is way too simple and inaccurate a statement. Tell me how buying a US assembled Camry or Accord or Subaru or Nissan creates more unemployment than buying a Mexican Fusion or a Canadian Chrysler minivan?
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
One doesn't commit treason by not agreeing with you. You seem to enjoy the idea of trying to control opinion and restricting the freedoms that so many, including my own parents fought for. You'd do well in China - assuming you were on the controlling side.
Perhaps you have some foreign home to go to. I don't. I'm born and raised in the first state to ratify the Bill of Rights. I take my rights pretty seriously. This will now include the right to ignore you.
Fortunately, the US jobs created by the imports are non-union jobs, so they can fire the worthless at a moment's notice, and maintain quality control (uh, maybe Toyota excepted, for now)...
Merry Christmas, no more Jobs Bank...Ho, Ho, Ho...
You've been posting here for less than a month, & you're lecturing people who have been members for more than 10 years?
The smart thing to do would have been to hang out for a few months & read a few thousand messages before opening your mouth. The tone of your message suggests that you're new to computers & the Internet. Am I right? I'll bet I am.
As far as cars are concerned, here's the story: if you want to sell to me, figure out EXACTLY what I want & how much I'm willing to pay for it. Then go ahead & make it. It's all about me & what I want. Don't think that you'll earn my business by wrapping yourself in the flag. That won't cut it.
Got it? Good.
And Merry Christmas.
Hmmm...interesting viewpoint. Is GM a traitor for selling more cars inChina than the USA??????
What say you?
Period, The End. Merry Christmas to the World!
Regards,
OW
Frankly, I see far more negative comments tossed about domestic brands on what are supposed to be boards about domestic brands, than I see negative comments about Japanese or Korean or German brands on those boards. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I think an objective look would substantiate that opinion of mine. Pro-foreign manufacturer-buffs seem to only ever make the comparison about a Fusion made in Mexico and a Camry made in Kentucky, but ignore all the domestic brands built here and the foreign brands built "over there". I think the best you can do for this country is buying a domestic brand, built here. It is possible, you know, and there's some attractive product to choose from, if one just bothers to give them a chance.
Uplander, first, Merry Christmas and thanks for your post. I'm glad you are in the forums, as your perspective is a good one.
I agree that there is attractive product from the domestic makers.
I'd also like to hypothesize that for most of us who disagree with each other, we still all really want the U.S. to do well and be a leader in the world. I think we just disagree on what it takes to get there.
Your comment about "the best you can do for this country is buying a domestic brand..." is where we disagree. I'd argue that without competition, the domestic brands today would be *much worse* than they are. It is exactly that competition that has made them better, and even competitive on a world stage. It's the same reason that Boeing is as good as it is, even though Airbus of Europe is also selling aircraft to US airlines.
There is a point of view that by having some pain, and having some competition, some of whose products are better than the domestic products, and even having US citizens buy such product, it strengthens the U.S. makes. It keeps them on their toes. It helps them to not get complacent, and to put out mediocrity. And in that way, some of us believe that we are actually helping the domestics. Because we believe that going ahead and buying mediocrity is NOT helping the U.S.
So no, I don't agree that "the best you can do for this country is buying a domestic brand". Even if you disagree, perhaps you can understand the reasoning.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Much earlier in this thread, I asked if anyone applied a "nationality filter" when shopping for cars. IOW, does anyone explicitly include or exclude certain countries of origin early in the shopping process?
I also asked if anyone had ever not bought a car that he/she liked because of its country of origin.
As I recall (please correct me if I'm wrong), your reply is that you buy what scratches your personal itch, & that it's coincidental, more or less, that what you happen to like is American-made. The reason why you don't buy Japanese cars is because nothing made there appeals to you - not because of where they're made. You're not making any sacrifices.
So as far as I can see, there's no meaningful difference between you & me when it comes to shopping for cars. When you're in the market, it's all about you & what you want. It's a bit disingenuous to pretend that you're in any way more high-minded than I am. You end up with what you like & so do I.
Much more complaints to get the job done, I'm afraid.
But a decent start from the gates of failure. At least they made some profit.
Let's see if the B.S. stops and the delivery excites.
Until then, I'll remain the Hundee Boy! :shades:
Regards,
OW
"Your comment about "the best you can do for this country is buying a domestic brand..." is where we disagree. I'd argue that without competition, the domestic brands today would be *much worse* than they are. It is exactly that competition that has made them better"
I am one who has posted the same opinion as tlong, that our cars (Big 3)would barely qualify as boat anchors had it not been for the Japanese quality invasion...our cars were absolute crap and everyone knew it except lemko and rocky...that quality gap existed for over 20 years (approx 1980-2000, maybe into 2005)...while I agree that "that was then, and this is now" many of us have very good memories of previous junk we bought from Big 3...now, if the junk had been a $25 CD player, no one would care...but when the item cost thousands of $$$ with payment over 36-60 months, and when the car was junk long before it was paid off, folks remember that...
Esp when the import car they bought was everything they wanted and more, which, it appears to me, you are neglecting to consider when you call import buyers "traitors"...
We want the best quality we can buy, and if US makers don't offer it, they don't deserve our business...the heck with the lost American jobs from the UAW, we DESERVE quality products, and anyone who bought American junk in the past, solely to "save his neighbors job" is a fool...
Our cars are now very good, and we owe it all to the Japanese who put our cars to shame...thanks to them, WE are now competitive in our quality...but for those who were burned too often in the past, and won't give Big 3 cars a chance, I can certainly understand it, because we made junk for decades...not just a few years, but DECADES...and when you spend over $20K on a piece of junk, you may not be so eager to give them another chance...
The market (and it's share) point to where the road is paved.
Regards,
OW
Can't agree with that statement... it's a cop out. GM did it to itself. You can't say the foreign cars were better in that period and then claim the reason the US makes were bad was because of imitating foreign design.
The Aztec was distinctive.
The Corvette is distinctive. The Sky and the other twin were distinctive and good looking, too. Just not the best cars in the world, if you get my drift.
The Sonata (love it or hate it) is distinctive.
Agree that there could be more distinctive vehicles around. But we ARE spoiled. Aren't you glad the number of vehicle choices aren't like your choices in cell carriers or internet service providers. In cars/trucks, we actually have it really good with a large variety and selection.
Oh, yes I can. Detroit stopped doing what they did best--and went to boring econoboxes with untried technology, even into their larger cars.
The GM problems started with cars like the rusty blown engine Vegas (which was an attempt to make a "small" car with a 4 cyl engine), continued with unreliability in the Citations and clones (somewhat "foreign" in their design), and continued with cars like Fiero, V8-6-4 (not so foreign), trucks with sidesaddle gas tanks, Quad 4 engines, dexcool cooling issues, cavalier economy cars, etc. Then of course the SUV craze took off and the trucks were pretty competitive, but they lost sight of the cars. And of course the big barges like lemko had continued to be the best GM cars.
Toyota 86.6
Nissan 61.7
Volkswagen 58.7
Chrysler 52.7
BMW 49.3
Suzuki 48.4
Average 47.0
GM 43.4
Mazda 36.8
Hyundai 30.0
Ford 29.3
Jaguar/Land Rover 27.5
Honda 27.2
Subaru 22.5
Mercedes-Benz 17.1
Mitsubishi 10.4
Link: Soaring dissatisfaction
If it's any consolation, you really had to t-bone those trucks at around 70+ mph to get them to blow up. Of course, if you left the gas cap off, filled the tank to the brim, and strapped on a few model rocket engines, you could get an explosion at a somewhat lower impact speed. :P
And for all the gloom and doom over those saddle-tank trucks, overall, death rates were lower for them than competing Ford or Dodge trucks. So, in spite of those saddle tanks, you were still more likely to die in a crash in a Ford or Dodge than you were a Chevy or GMC.