Biased Consumer Reports? Biased against American brand cars?
Have been a subscriber to CR for many years as well as subscriber to various auto magazines and also a reader of Edmunds vehicle test reports. I find that CR findings on road tests and evaluations of vehicle attributes (fit, finish, interior, ergonomics, etc) is not out of line with conclusions reached by others.
The engines made in China are now in more of GM's products. The Cheys Traverse ( proberly I spelled it wrong) all those who use the same engine. I saw this for myself on the 2009's at the dealer about 4 weeks ago.
Help me out here. What GM vehicles use a China built engine other than the old Equinox?
The Traverse only uses the HFV6 3.6L. It is made in 3 plants. Flint, St. Catherines and Australia.
Geeze, if the guys at the Big Three are merely brainless boobs, the guys on Wall Street and in the banking industry are either profoundly retarded or unrepentant felons and reprobates!
How do you figure that? The Wall street, banking and Insurance guys have conned US out of $700 billion so far. They will probably get another $Trillion. The Boobs running GM have only extorted $13.4 billion and most of that is in question or may end up back in the treasury as taxes. I say they all should be tried as felons and get the guillotine.
I get a lot of people asking me to define exactly what is an American car? Is it a vehicle made by one of the Detroit automakers, yet assembled in Canada, Mexico, or some other country? Or is it a vehicle made by a Japanese, European, or Korean company with assembly plants in America? Or something in between? My definition of an “American car” is a vehicle which was conceived, designed, engineered, developed and manufactured in America. It might have a Big Three logo on it, it might have a Japanese logo on it. As long as it meets that criteria, it doesn’t matter to me.
But I also allow for some slack in my definition. Product creation is what really counts. That’s what generates the greatest value for the economy, much more than assembly of the vehicle. To their credit Toyota, Honda and Nissan are doing some of their product creation, at least with some of their truck products, in the US. Hyundai’s getting there.
Even if they repatriate the profits of those trucks back to Japan or Korea, it’s still worth having them do their product creation here. Roughly 90% of all the value created by creating those products will stay in the US. Conversely, if that vehicle was mostly created in Japan or Korea or where ever, I don’t consider it “American” even if it is assembled in the USA.
The same goes for a GM, Ford or Chrysler product that’s assembled in Canada or Mexico. As long as the product creation took place in the US, the overwhelming amount of value generated by it will stay in the US. So for me, even if a vehicle like that is assembled north or south of the border, it’s still American.
Uhh, that's a dumb definition...besides, define "creation" please? is it the initial design? The engineering? The focus group research? The testing? And is it of the components, or just the final assembled automobile?
By his definition, a product could be theoretically "created" by one person here, making say $200k, and that's better than employing 50 workers on a line at $50k? Who exactly is this guy and what credentials does he pretend to have?
I have a much simpler definition. An American made car is one that is designed, engineered, researched, tested, and assembled by Americans using at least 80% U.S. Sourced components. Right now I doubt ANY car fits that definition...oh well, too bad.
The Fusion Hybrid is continuing get great press. Hopefully it will help turn things around. I may rip on the D3 for their ineptitude, but Mullaly may finally be changing things at Ford for the better.
John McElroy is the host of the television program “Autoline Detroit,” which covers all aspects of the automotive industry. It is a weekly half-hour discussion program featuring top automotive executives and journalists that provides a window into the latest developments and thinking in the industry. It airs nationally on Sunday mornings at 7 AM on the SPEED cable network and at 10:30 AM on Sundays on Detroit Public Television. The show can be seen online at www.autolinedetroit.tv.
gagrice: "I say they all should be tried as felons and get the guillotine." I would also like to suspend the 8th Amendment and bring back the old punishment of being "drawn and quartered"...I believe it was "somewhat" more painful than the needle of the lethal injection, but what do I know???
steve: It is amusing that so many companies leave the US for Bermuda or wherever because of our apparently high tax rates...I fail to see, unlike Joe Biden, why it is patriotic for anyone, corp or person, to pay any more taxes than necessary...
But Congress, rather than lower the corp tax rate to 10% or 5% to bring companies back to the US, simply grandstand and complain that they are leaving...just how stupid can our Congress be???
Why not match the corp tax rate of Bermuda or the Caymans and see what happens???...they can't lose any money, as they have already lost it ALL by losing the companies to outside the US...it might work...
Product creation is what really counts. That’s what generates the greatest value for the economy, much more than assembly of the vehicle. To their credit Toyota, Honda and Nissan are doing some of their product creation, at least with some of their truck products, in the US. Hyundai’s getting there Don't understand your logic or what exactly you are talking about. The Toyota Avalon (and the Camry FTM) were both designed and engineered (created?) in California, and are assembled from parts made all over the US. Over 90%^ US content parts and labor because they are also assembled in Kentucky. The new Tundra also US designed , exported from here, to the tune of 97% US parts and labor, assembly at a brand new factory in Texas. There are very very few US branded vehicles that will come close to any of these vehicles in terms of 'made in USA' by any definition. My question for you though is this: how can there be any appreciable economic impact from conception and/or engineering when we have literally thousands of worker salaries being spent into those economies in Kentucky and Texas, and that doesn't even include the billions these manfacturers are spending building plants over here. And yes, we haven't mentioned Honda in Ohio, Nissan in Tenn., and/or MB and Hyundai in Alabama, yet. Economically, I contend, where a particular vehicle is assembled, and where those parts it is assembled with come from all has far more impact than simply where it was designed/engineered???
Sorry, but I did not make the comment you qouted. The title of this forum is what buying american cars and what it means. I posted the link/quote to a well respected journalist with years of experience.
But I can take your data to task because it is incorrect.
The Toyota Avalon (and the Camry FTM) were both designed and engineered (created?) in California, and are assembled from parts made all over the US. Over 90%^ US content parts and labor because they are also assembled in Kentucky.
Now I would agree with the trucks. Toyota has been doing a lot of their engineering here because their trucks really do not sell elsewhere. Good for them.
That was a good review by USA Today. Car magazines have also given favorable reviews. One unfavorable aspect of the car is that it is make in Mexico. Would imagine there is some labor savings in Mexico. But, how much? Could the car be made in the US in ALA, TENN, KY, etc with just a 1-2 $K increase in MSRP? In these times in the US, I think that many US citizens would be willing to buy a "True" US built car, one that may be superior to foreign brands, and pay a little more.
Looks like Ford builit a car that beats foreeign brands such as Camry and Altima.
I don't know about other parts of the county but they've been building cars for the US market in Toluca since 1968. It's not like they just started figuring out how to build cars there yesterday.
Some factories are more efficient than others, but I bet if you ran the numbers at CR or JD Power for cars built for the NA market, the county of origin will have little to do with how the cars are screwed together.
Paying a little more for a product is not the American way. :shades:
your figures are parts content only I believe and makes no consideration for relative values of the local labor - as in the case of the Avalon, Camry etc etc. The economic impacts of all the US sourced labor (how many times a worker's salary might conceivably be spent in the local (and national) economies for example) far more important than the actual value, number, or even location of the source of parts anyway IMO.
Could the car be made in the US in ALA, TENN, KY, etc with just a 1-2 $K increase in MSRP If Ford, in this case, could get out from under the UAW then I think the answer to this is plainly yes and probably without any price premium. Why? because the Japanese are already doing it in those same states. Recently read a side by side test BTW in one of the national car mags. that says the new Fusion hybrids FE estimates are inflated, and the car actually returns less MPG than the Camry Hybrid. No matter though, the Fusion in whatever form is still a feather in Ford's cap, except that when you go buy one you are still sending a bunch of money to Mexico. Submit that if you are motivated to support the Anerican economy, however the best thing to do in this case is to spend your $ on that Camry or that Altima, and not the Ford.
your figures are parts content only I believe and makes no consideration for relative values of the local labor
Sorry, you are incorrect. I gave the link. It states:
Cars.com's American-Made Index rates vehicles built and bought in the U.S. Factors include sales, where the car's parts are made and whether the car is assembled in the U.S.
I know you really want to believe and will continue to make statements that have no factual base. But this is the internet and anyone can say anything.
The economic impacts of all the US sourced labor (how many times a worker's salary might conceivably be spent in the local (and national) economies for example) far more important than the actual value, number, or even location of the source of parts anyway IMO.
Submit that if you are motivated to support the Anerican economy, however the best thing to do in this case is to spend your $ on that Camry or that Altima, and not the Ford.
Again you can say anything here. Lets just take the premise that either Toyota or Ford stops selling vehicles in the US. Which will effect the employee base, taxes, etc.
Toyota closes their four assembly plants (20k employees) and their engineering center (3000 employees) here in the states but the engineering and development, which is primarily in Japan, continues to work in Japan for the rest of the world sales. We would have a job loss at the plants of non skilled, low wage workers and some more at the small engineering centers where they employ high wage technical workers. Total US employees: 36,000
Ford closes it's 12 assembly plants and their extensive engineering centers and proving grounds with almost 100,000 employees. We lose many more plant workers and a huge number of high wage technical workers. Ford Global would also shut down and the US would lose the profits made from overseas concerns.
Openly moving production from Japan to save money is a pretty astonishing move in a highly nationalistic business and political culture. GM's supporters had a shred of a point when they noted that the entire worldwide auto industry was in a downturn--no car maker is immune from the need for credit to finance auto purchases. Though only a shred of a point, because the Big Three's legacy of management and labor screw-ups have left it in little shape to survive the downturn, and unless excess capacity goes somewhere, the global auto industry will continue to suffer for the indefinite future.
Perhaps suspecting this, the government is considering putting GM and Chrysler into bankruptcy. That's because Debtor-in-Possession financing (DIP) is the first thing that gets paid back as the company emerges from bankruptcy. The US government is making sure it doesn't get stiffed to pay other creditors.
I expect that this is just a threat to get banks like JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs to let the government cut in line for whatever cash the automakers generate. The government doesn't really want to hand over the automakers to a bankruptcy judge, who will, among other things, void the company's contracts with the unions and start over from a baseline of zero. Since this is exactly what the $18 billion was supposed to prevent, it's hard to see them turning around and making it happen themselves.
The real question is what the banks do. Even if the judge did make government debt senior to theirs, it's possible they'd be better off in a bankruptcy. Unless things turn around soon, continuing operations just mean burning cash. As long as they're fairly senior, they might be better off taking the money and running.
If one thinks things will turn around SOON, take your head out of the sand. Seven days to INFAMY.
Has anyone looked into the Lemon law and what you paperwork you need? I'm going after Honda for everything they got. I'm sick and tired of all of the run-a-round they are giving me. My transmission is still not right. I took it to another Honda dealer and they are talking another rebuild. HELP! I have talked to about 15 people who are in the same boat as I am with problem Honda's (Pilots, Odyssey's, & Ridgelines) . Maybe we can get a class action suit against them started for faulty transmissions and misleading the public.
I say no way. But with Senetors Corker R. TN, McConnell R KY and Shelby R AR all being on Japan INC. payroll, I would think they will pull out all of the stops to try and make it happen. Nissan is losing big time money and just thrown 20,000 people in the streets. Don't give Nissan any money until it's a VIABLE company. Isn't that what they said to the Big Three? Nissan doesn't make anything I would wan't to buy anyway. Murano/FX, Rouge, Maxima, Altima, Versa? I'm waiting for the clowns to get out and do a fire drill. They should just do what Mitsubishi, Suzuki, Kia, Isuzu did, and pull out of America. They won't be missed.
Murano/FX, Rouge, Maxima, Altima, Versa? I'm waiting for the clowns to get out and do a fire drill. They should just do what Mitsubishi, Suzuki, Kia, Isuzu did, and pull out of America. They won't be missed.
Uhh, what is it that you're smoking again? Those are some very popular models. And Mitsu, Suzuki, and Kia haven't gone anywhere.
I wouldn't miss any of them. I usually just blow right through their exhibits at the auto show. Anyway, of all those makes - only Isuzu is gone. I don't think Nissan or Kia is going anywhere, but Suzuki and Mitsu might be in a bit of peril.
I dunno; their displays at the auto show I went to were larger and had more vehicles than Buick or Cadillac, and I believe their 2008 sales were higher, too.
I blow through all of the D3 exhibits at the NYIAS ecept for the CTS coupe and 'vette. My kids fall asleep by Buick since it's so quiet in that corner! The Genesis exhibit was mobbed last year.
GM might as well not have shown up at Boston. Their exhibits were ghost towns, save for a few looking at Vettes. Their displays were far from glamorous as well, it was like they weren't even trying to get the publics attention.
This was also before the December shakeup hit, so maybe they were keeping the spending to a minimum. :shades:
The Buick and Caddy exhibits were plenty packed in Philly. I will spend a decent amount of time at the Lexus, Mercedes, Toyota, Acura, and Honda exhibits. Everybody else is sort of eh...
The Genesis exhibit was mobbed? Not bad for a knockoff of a Toyota Avalon.
that the times are a'changing, was the Rolls/Bentley display at the DC auto show. Normally these cars are kept roped off, with the other erotics, so you can't get anywhere near them. But this time around, at the DC show at least, they were right out there on the floor where the bourgeoisie could mingle among them, taint them with their smudges and fingerprints, etc. Us mere mortals couldn't actually get inside the cars, as they were locked up tight. Still, I guess this is a reflection on the times, as even these upper echelon cars are having a rough go at it, rough enough that the velvet ropes have come down in the hopes that there might be a potential sale or two in those unwashed masses.
Hate to say it, but the Buick display was almost as dead as the Oldsmobile and Plymouth displays! :P
The Buick display consisted of exactly 1 Enclave and 1 Lucerne, sandwiched in between 4 Saturns and 3 Hummers. Caddy had an Escalade and an STS, plus what I assume was a CTS-V roped away on a rotating platform.
On the other hand, the Genesis WAS the Hyundai display the day I went. Interesting tactic.
Calling it a Lexus knockoff is insulting to the Lexus line-up, except for maybe the ES350. I was much more impressed with the original LS400. To call it a Mercedes knock-off, you'd have to be smoking blunts the size of telephone poles.
Calling it a Lexus knockoff is insulting to the Lexus line-up, except for maybe the ES350. I was much more impressed with the original LS400. To call it a Mercedes knock-off, you'd have to be smoking blunts the size of telephone poles.
I agree, Lemko - it may "resemble" a Benz, but that's as far as it goes. What it is, is a really really nice Hyundai.
Calling it a Lexus knockoff is insulting to the Lexus line-up, except for maybe the ES350. I was much more impressed with the original LS400. To call it a Mercedes knock-off, you'd have to be smoking blunts the size of telephone poles.
Can't be a Toyota/Lexus product, because it doesn't have a GM interior. :shades:
Now if you'll excuse me, I'd like to get back to my "telephone pole"
Maybe a Lexus knock-off inside, BMW knock-off outside.
I'm interested to see what residuals are in a couple years. I don't doubt it will have good reliability, but it might end up being a much greater bargain in 24 months.
Nissan doesn't make anything I would wan't to buy anyway. Murano/FX
You must be pretty picky not to like any of these. What do you drive anyway? The FX45 is absolutely the most satisfying vehicle I've ever owned, and I've owned a lot of them.
I would miss Nissan. I had a Nissan Maxima SE that I drove to 195K trouble free miles and then sold to a private party. That Maxima was bullitt proof. Can't say the same about Ameriican brands that I have had.
Actually I thought it was interesting, at NAIAS this year, there were more people in the Ford area than the rest of the show combined. That was sampled on one industry day and on one general public day. It was interesting to note that on the industry day, the only people in the Chrysler area were people from other OEMs measuring the minivans. Ford didn't have a Fiesta on display this year, and GM had the VOLT in a dark corner in the back. It was weird.
The Genesis exhibit was mobbed? Not bad for a knockoff of a Toyota Avalon.
know this is off topic but I can't resist.
Avalon = Front drive Snoozer Genesis = Rear drive burner
Not even close to a Toyota anything. Maybe a Mercedes knockoff, but a pretty decent one.
I was really impressed with the Genesis. Its going to eat Toyota's lunch. I would like to see it compared with the CTS and G35 as well.
I really liked the CTS coupe and sedan. If I was in that kind of place financially, I would consider that, but alas, I am still at the Yugo/Chevette/Excel level.
I was really impressed with the Genesis. Its going to eat Toyota's lunch
Seriously? Hows that going so far since it has been out for a while now? Many converts?
Having auto journalist compare it to Lexus is one thing. It's another to see people trading their old lexus on one. I don't expect anyone will buy one that could seriously consider a lexus in the first place.
May be a great car. But Hyundai buyers will be the main people purchasing these is my guess.
I don't expect anyone will buy one that could seriously consider a lexus in the first place.
My wife likes the looks of the Genesis. She bought one of the first LS400s to come to the states. I don't think she would buy another Lexus. Does not like the current styles that Lexus offers. She would be more apt to go back to her roots buying MB. I hate four door sedans and she does not like 2 doors so we compromise and buy SUVs. The Made in America ML320 CDI is now at the top of the list.
Seriously? Hows that going so far since it has been out for a while now? Many converts?
Having auto journalist compare it to Lexus is one thing. It's another to see people trading their old lexus on one. I don't expect anyone will buy one that could seriously consider a lexus in the first place.
Is someone in the market for an LS460 or the S500 going to pick up a Genesis or 3 or 4? No. Is someone looking at a GS or ES (rolling retirement home) or even an IS going to look? I think so.
The Genesis is a lot of fun for not an excessive amount of coin. I am also curious to see how much the Taurus SHO affects thing.
*Hyundai's 14-percent increase, to 24,512, included rising sales for Accent, Sonata, Santa Fe and Veracruz. It sold 1,056 of its new RWD Genesis sedan.
One reason for the jump in January, after a dismal December, appears to be Hyundai's new marketing strategy of promising to let buyers return their vehicles, at no cost in most cases and with no penalty to their credit rating, if they lose their job or income within a year.
"To their credit, they struck at the core of what's bothering people, and that's obviously uncertainty," said Jeremy Anwyl, chief executive of Edmunds.com, a Web site that gives car-buying advice to consumers. "It's just the fear and the uncertainty that's holding people back."
Anwyl said the program, Hyundai Assurance, would probably lead to similar deals from some rivals after they see that Hyundai's offer is resonating with consumers.
"It gives them a whole new audience - people for whom it would have never popped up on their shopping list," he said.
Comments
Have been a subscriber to CR for many years as well as subscriber to various auto magazines and also a reader of Edmunds vehicle test reports. I find that CR findings on road tests and evaluations of vehicle attributes (fit, finish, interior, ergonomics, etc) is not out of line with conclusions reached by others.
Help me out here. What GM vehicles use a China built engine other than the old Equinox?
The Traverse only uses the HFV6 3.6L. It is made in 3 plants. Flint, St. Catherines and Australia.
How do you figure that? The Wall street, banking and Insurance guys have conned US out of $700 billion so far. They will probably get another $Trillion. The Boobs running GM have only extorted $13.4 billion and most of that is in question or may end up back in the treasury as taxes. I say they all should be tried as felons and get the guillotine.
or may end up back in the treasury as taxes.
But I also allow for some slack in my definition. Product creation is what really counts. That’s what generates the greatest value for the economy, much more than assembly of the vehicle. To their credit Toyota, Honda and Nissan are doing some of their product creation, at least with some of their truck products, in the US. Hyundai’s getting there.
Even if they repatriate the profits of those trucks back to Japan or Korea, it’s still worth having them do their product creation here. Roughly 90% of all the value created by creating those products will stay in the US. Conversely, if that vehicle was mostly created in Japan or Korea or where ever, I don’t consider it “American” even if it is assembled in the USA.
The same goes for a GM, Ford or Chrysler product that’s assembled in Canada or Mexico. As long as the product creation took place in the US, the overwhelming amount of value generated by it will stay in the US. So for me, even if a vehicle like that is assembled north or south of the border, it’s still American.
By his definition, a product could be theoretically "created" by one person here, making say $200k, and that's better than employing 50 workers on a line at $50k? Who exactly is this guy and what credentials does he pretend to have?
I have a much simpler definition. An American made car is one that is designed, engineered, researched, tested, and assembled by Americans using at least 80% U.S. Sourced components. Right now I doubt ANY car fits that definition...oh well, too bad.
The Fusion Hybrid is continuing get great press. Hopefully it will help turn things around. I may rip on the D3 for their ineptitude, but Mullaly may finally be changing things at Ford for the better.
define "creation" please
is a vehicle which was conceived, designed, engineered, developed
Now I guess someone could make the assumption that one person could do the above but I think he was talking about companies.
And in the end your definition completely agrees with his except you added in the 80% US content. Good luck with that.
Well, how American is it if it basically shows up on our shores as a kit and we insert tab A into slot B?
Oh you still haven't linked to the article or the author, please do so I can proceed to make fun of him or her. :shades:
http://www.autolinedetroit.tv/journal/?p=2206
This is their home page
http://www.autolinedetroit.tv/show/1306
About John McElroy
John McElroy is the host of the television program “Autoline Detroit,” which covers all aspects of the automotive industry. It is a weekly half-hour discussion program featuring top automotive executives and journalists that provides a window into the latest developments and thinking in the industry. It airs nationally on Sunday mornings at 7 AM on the SPEED cable network and at 10:30 AM on Sundays on Detroit Public Television. The show can be seen online at www.autolinedetroit.tv.
steve: It is amusing that so many companies leave the US for Bermuda or wherever because of our apparently high tax rates...I fail to see, unlike Joe Biden, why it is patriotic for anyone, corp or person, to pay any more taxes than necessary...
But Congress, rather than lower the corp tax rate to 10% or 5% to bring companies back to the US, simply grandstand and complain that they are leaving...just how stupid can our Congress be???
Why not match the corp tax rate of Bermuda or the Caymans and see what happens???...they can't lose any money, as they have already lost it ALL by losing the companies to outside the US...it might work...
Don't understand your logic or what exactly you are talking about. The Toyota Avalon (and the Camry FTM) were both designed and engineered (created?) in California, and are assembled from parts made all over the US. Over 90%^ US content parts and labor because they are also assembled in Kentucky. The new Tundra also US designed , exported from here, to the tune of 97% US parts and labor, assembly at a brand new factory in Texas. There are very very few US branded vehicles that will come close to any of these vehicles in terms of 'made in USA' by any definition.
My question for you though is this: how can there be any appreciable economic impact from conception and/or engineering when we have literally thousands of worker salaries being spent into those economies in Kentucky and Texas, and that doesn't even include the billions these manfacturers are spending building plants over here. And yes, we haven't mentioned Honda in Ohio, Nissan in Tenn., and/or MB and Hyundai in Alabama, yet. Economically, I contend, where a particular vehicle is assembled, and where those parts it is assembled with come from all has far more impact than simply where it was designed/engineered???
But I can take your data to task because it is incorrect.
The Toyota Avalon (and the Camry FTM) were both designed and engineered (created?) in California, and are assembled from parts made all over the US. Over 90%^ US content parts and labor because they are also assembled in Kentucky.
No the Avalon has less than 75% US content.
http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=ami&story=amMade0808-
Now I would agree with the trucks. Toyota has been doing a lot of their engineering here because their trucks really do not sell elsewhere. Good for them.
The Tundra is somewhere south of 80% US content.
Looks like Ford builit a car that beats foreeign brands such as Camry and Altima.
Some factories are more efficient than others, but I bet if you ran the numbers at CR or JD Power for cars built for the NA market, the county of origin will have little to do with how the cars are screwed together.
Paying a little more for a product is not the American way. :shades:
If Ford, in this case, could get out from under the UAW then I think the answer to this is plainly yes and probably without any price premium. Why? because the Japanese are already doing it in those same states.
Recently read a side by side test BTW in one of the national car mags. that says the new Fusion hybrids FE estimates are inflated, and the car actually returns less MPG than the Camry Hybrid. No matter though, the Fusion in whatever form is still a feather in Ford's cap, except that when you go buy one you are still sending a bunch of money to Mexico.
Submit that if you are motivated to support the Anerican economy, however the best thing to do in this case is to spend your $ on that Camry or that Altima, and not the Ford.
your figures are parts content only I believe and makes no consideration for relative values of the local labor
Sorry, you are incorrect. I gave the link. It states:
Cars.com's American-Made Index rates vehicles built and bought in the U.S. Factors include sales, where the car's parts are made and whether the car is assembled in the U.S.
I know you really want to believe and will continue to make statements that have no factual base. But this is the internet and anyone can say anything.
The economic impacts of all the US sourced labor (how many times a worker's salary might conceivably be spent in the local (and national) economies for example) far more important than the actual value, number, or even location of the source of parts anyway IMO.
Again you can say anything here. Lets just take the premise that either Toyota or Ford stops selling vehicles in the US. Which will effect the employee base, taxes, etc.
Toyota closes their four assembly plants (20k employees) and their engineering center (3000 employees) here in the states but the engineering and development, which is primarily in Japan, continues to work in Japan for the rest of the world sales. We would have a job loss at the plants of non skilled, low wage workers and some more at the small engineering centers where they employ high wage technical workers. Total US employees: 36,000
Ford closes it's 12 assembly plants and their extensive engineering centers and proving grounds with almost 100,000 employees. We lose many more plant workers and a huge number of high wage technical workers. Ford Global would also shut down and the US would lose the profits made from overseas concerns.
Openly moving production from Japan to save money is a pretty astonishing move in a highly nationalistic business and political culture. GM's supporters had a shred of a point when they noted that the entire worldwide auto industry was in a downturn--no car maker is immune from the need for credit to finance auto purchases. Though only a shred of a point, because the Big Three's legacy of management and labor screw-ups have left it in little shape to survive the downturn, and unless excess capacity goes somewhere, the global auto industry will continue to suffer for the indefinite future.
Perhaps suspecting this, the government is considering putting GM and Chrysler into bankruptcy. That's because Debtor-in-Possession financing (DIP) is the first thing that gets paid back as the company emerges from bankruptcy. The US government is making sure it doesn't get stiffed to pay other creditors.
I expect that this is just a threat to get banks like JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs to let the government cut in line for whatever cash the automakers generate. The government doesn't really want to hand over the automakers to a bankruptcy judge, who will, among other things, void the company's contracts with the unions and start over from a baseline of zero. Since this is exactly what the $18 billion was supposed to prevent, it's hard to see them turning around and making it happen themselves.
The real question is what the banks do. Even if the judge did make government debt senior to theirs, it's possible they'd be better off in a bankruptcy. Unless things turn around soon, continuing operations just mean burning cash. As long as they're fairly senior, they might be better off taking the money and running.
If one thinks things will turn around SOON, take your head out of the sand. Seven days to INFAMY.
Regards,
OW
Uhh, what is it that you're smoking again? Those are some very popular models. And Mitsu, Suzuki, and Kia haven't gone anywhere.
Regards,
OW
This was also before the December shakeup hit, so maybe they were keeping the spending to a minimum. :shades:
The Genesis exhibit was mobbed? Not bad for a knockoff of a Toyota Avalon.
I know this is off topic but I can't resist.
Avalon = Front drive Snoozer
Genesis = Rear drive burner
Not even close to a Toyota anything. Maybe a Mercedes knockoff, but a pretty decent one.
Hate to say it, but the Buick display was almost as dead as the Oldsmobile and Plymouth displays! :P
On the other hand, the Genesis WAS the Hyundai display the day I went. Interesting tactic.
Took a nap after a long drive to Carlisle!
Regards,
OW
The Genesis feels more like a Lexus knock-off to me, much more Asian than European.
The point however remains - it's a knock off of something - but apparently, a darn good one.
I agree, Lemko - it may "resemble" a Benz, but that's as far as it goes. What it is, is a really really nice Hyundai.
Can't be a Toyota/Lexus product, because it doesn't have a GM interior. :shades:
Now if you'll excuse me, I'd like to get back to my "telephone pole"
I'm interested to see what residuals are in a couple years. I don't doubt it will have good reliability, but it might end up being a much greater bargain in 24 months.
You must be pretty picky not to like any of these. What do you drive anyway? The FX45 is absolutely the most satisfying vehicle I've ever owned, and I've owned a lot of them.
Ford didn't have a Fiesta on display this year, and GM had the VOLT in a dark corner in the back. It was weird.
know this is off topic but I can't resist.
Avalon = Front drive Snoozer
Genesis = Rear drive burner
Not even close to a Toyota anything. Maybe a Mercedes knockoff, but a pretty decent one.
I was really impressed with the Genesis. Its going to eat Toyota's lunch. I would like to see it compared with the CTS and G35 as well.
I really liked the CTS coupe and sedan. If I was in that kind of place financially, I would consider that, but alas, I am still at the Yugo/Chevette/Excel level.
Seriously? Hows that going so far since it has been out for a while now? Many converts?
Having auto journalist compare it to Lexus is one thing. It's another to see people trading their old lexus on one. I don't expect anyone will buy one that could seriously consider a lexus in the first place.
May be a great car. But Hyundai buyers will be the main people purchasing these is my guess.
My wife likes the looks of the Genesis. She bought one of the first LS400s to come to the states. I don't think she would buy another Lexus. Does not like the current styles that Lexus offers. She would be more apt to go back to her roots buying MB. I hate four door sedans and she does not like 2 doors so we compromise and buy SUVs. The Made in America ML320 CDI is now at the top of the list.
Having auto journalist compare it to Lexus is one thing. It's another to see people trading their old lexus on one. I don't expect anyone will buy one that could seriously consider a lexus in the first place.
Is someone in the market for an LS460 or the S500 going to pick up a Genesis or 3 or 4? No. Is someone looking at a GS or ES (rolling retirement home) or even an IS going to look? I think so.
The Genesis is a lot of fun for not an excessive amount of coin. I am also curious to see how much the Taurus SHO affects thing.
Regards,
OW
One reason for the jump in January, after a dismal December, appears to be Hyundai's new marketing strategy of promising to let buyers return their vehicles, at no cost in most cases and with no penalty to their credit rating, if they lose their job or income within a year.
"To their credit, they struck at the core of what's bothering people, and that's obviously uncertainty," said Jeremy Anwyl, chief executive of Edmunds.com, a Web site that gives car-buying advice to consumers. "It's just the fear and the uncertainty that's holding people back."
Anwyl said the program, Hyundai Assurance, would probably lead to similar deals from some rivals after they see that Hyundai's offer is resonating with consumers.
"It gives them a whole new audience - people for whom it would have never popped up on their shopping list," he said.
Regards,
OW