So, if I bought a Dodge Colt to take to the Mopar Nationals in Carilsle this July, I wonder if Lemko would refuse to ride in it? :P Not that I'd ever willingly take ownership of a Dodge Colt...although I gotta admit I like those late 70's/early 80's Dodge Challengers/Plymouth Saporros.
lemko, like always, you speak in ambiguities... ...are you trying to say that Japanese and German vehicle are NOT on the top of your buying list???...you beat around the bush so much, I never really know what you are trying to communicate...NOT..
I think we need to kidnap lemko, put him in a straightjacket, and make him ride in a Lexus or a Mercedes for 100 miles on open road! Let's see if he keeps his sanity! :P :shades:
I believe so! I visit other car/truck rooms around the net. I truly believe Americans are thinking more about their purchases and how it affects our economy and our economic future. This recession ( I think it was a depression) was different. Ever ask yourself why? Jobs, opportunities. We have shipped them all overseas right along with our wealth. Buying American goods and services just makes sense. Take a minute and think before you buy.
I currently own a 2010 CRV. Its been OK so far, but, I've had two earlier model Hondas that were awful. One was a 91 Accord that keep having AC problems, couldn't be aligned and ate tires, and had a myiad of other problems. I dumped it for a Chrysler at 20K miles. The other was a late 90's Civic that I bought for my daughter. Despite being maintained properly, it nickel and dimed me to death until 80 K miles - when its engine developed a healthy thirst for oil. I then dumped it, and, my daughter bought a Ford. My nephew's Toyota was no prize winner either - it pucked two $4K trannies by the time it reached 100K. He's now driving a new Civic - having sent his trade - in to the dealer's lot on a flatbed. Anyway, I took a chance on another Honda - we'll see how this one holds up.
At the 2:40 mark it appears that smoke is coming from under the hood or wheel well. Kind of flaws the commercial for me. Wonder why the Cadillac "Quality Control" folks didn't catch that! :confuse:
While it is absolutely true that the Japanese imports have had their share of problems over the years, they jump on the problems and correct them. You point this out in your post.
However the B3 have problems for many years without doing anything to correct them. Example: The small block Chevy engines tended to leak oil from the valve covers and the rear crank seals for decades. They ran well so folks continued to buy them, but they still leaked. The "FIX" was to have a box of sand in the carport or garage to catch the oil.
I owned a BUNCH of small block Chevys over the years and they all leaked. Me thinks they did finally address the problem sometime in the 90s. Not sure exactly when because I had switched to Pontiac before the Chevy "Fix" came into play. Several of the GM products, including our 87 Olds, used timing gears with some type of synthetic tips on the teeth. They would eventually wear or break off and occasionally cause the timing chain to "Skip A Tooth", which may or may not lead to engine failure.
Ford and Chrysler had their problems also, and all 3 insisted on using really bad carburetors long after many or most of the foreign manufacturers were switching over to Fuel Injection. And the imports that stayed with carburetion, used carburetors that actually worked well.
My last new "American" made product was a 98 Dodge ram Pickup. Shortly after getting it I noticed a "TICK" in the steering. When starting away from a stopped condition. It was obvious enough that the Dealer tech didn't even try to say he didn't observe the problem. They replaced the steering column and the "NEW" one allowed the gearshift to shift the tranny into any gear without pulling back on the lever. It was simply free to move up and down without detenting. They replaced it again and problem solved.
After that test drive the tech showed me oil leaks around the outside of the intake manifold. He said it had been going on for a few years and would eventually lead to rough engine running, especially in overdrive. Chrysler knew of the problem but would not issue a recall. If I complained they would fix it, It surprised me because I have owned several Chrysler V8s, First one was a '55 Plymouth, and never had leaks, until that 98 model.
Zaken wrote:" For a good example; try "2005 Honda Odyssey EX 4 door minivan with leather, Nav, and entertainment (3.5L 6cyl 5A)" How many problems do you expect the factory would have identified on this model? (the answer is 123). "
That doesn't mean there are 123 problems on every '05 Odyssey. It means there have been 123 reported problems that could be hard to find or that will make the car more reliable. Those TSBs are a reference library for technicians, for fast reliable repairs, should a problem show up. Point is that they all have their problems, but the ones that recognize their responsibility to the customers will win the battle.
Example: Our mid 80s Toyota Cressida developed a vibration noise under certain conditions. I took it to the dealer and was told they had a TSB on that. There were several techs sitting on a wall waiting for something to do. One of them took the car away for less than 15 minutes and brought it back. Seems it was the heat shield around the Catalytic Convertor, that over time with all the heat, would do something to cause it to vibrate. Never did it again after that visit. The TSB let him know what to look for and how to fix it, fast.
Also I was the only customer in the receiving area . Next door was a Buick dealer with cars and their owners sitting outside waiting to see a service writer. I did hear one of the Toyota techs say, "I should have gone to work over there!"
I personally don't care where the fat cats at the top of the food chain live.
If you want to see depression, go visit Detroit. Come visit the North side and the South side of Atlanta where Ford and GM used to live.
Then go visit towns and cities where cars are being built by American labor and parts and service supplied to them by more American workers. They are buying food and clothing and other services from even more Americans. Chances are good that the name on the outside of those manufacturing plants will say Toyota, Honda, Kia, Nissan, and many other Asian as well as German and others. All putting Americans to work.
Which is best? To buy a Chevy built in Mexico/Canada or a Honda build right here in the good ole US of A? Yeah, it would be nice to buy a QUALITY American name plate built by Americans, just for the sake of pride. But what would that really add to the economy as far as the average Joe is concerned. Don't you think that maybe the foreign manufacturing plants are being taxed just like the American ones.
Several years ago Yamaha opened a plant in Newnan Ga. to build jet ski and and 4 wheelers. It is on the East side of I85 and there was not much else there, other than the sleepy little town of Newnan on the West side of I85. In a short time, food establishments, clothing stores, and you name it sprung up to cater to the Yamaha employees. Then houses started being built. And of course a Walmart moved in near Yamaha. None of those new business had any problem with where the home office of Yamaha is.
The D3 don't have any scruples about manufacturing in foreign countries and many on this forum obviously don't either. So why have a problem when the tables are turned?
While the president of Honda may not have been to my house or paid any of my bills, neither has the president of GM.
So we shut down the foreign manufacturers in this country and put hundreds of thousands of Americans out of work. What happens to the economy?
We do have a strong automobile building program. Just the names have changed.
The smoke is apparently coming from the brake calipers; which were overheated by all the abuse. This was not censored because it is a sign of macho, potlatch status; which is the whole message of the commercial. (A potlatch is a ceremony that was invented by the northwest coast (US) Indians a few hundred years ago; in which rival tribes competed to see which tribe could destroy the largest quantity of valuable goods. The tribe that destroyed the most valuable stuff won.)
"The tribe that destroyed the most valuable stuff won."...apparently that was the slogan that created the motivation for the Detroit riots of the 1960s...
"The tribe that destroyed the most valuable stuff won."...apparently that was the slogan that created the motivation for the Detroit riots of the 1960s.
...and the L.A. riots of the '90's.
I read once that most wars boil down to: "They have it. We want it. Let's go get it."
Regarding a way to measure the "bestness" of a car; I have found there is a direct correlation with the number of TSBs a manufacturer has issued for a given model, and its reliability rating (compared to other cars from the same country; which eliminates the issue of some countries manufacturers not fixing their problems). That's why I listed the example of the 2005 Honda Odyssey having 123 TSBs. In contrast; a similarly equipped 2005 Toyota Sienna (a directly comparable vehicle) has only 43 TSBs. And a 2005 Lexus LX 470 only has 15 TSBs.
On a similar note, about 45 years ago; a major motorcycle magazine published an article by their Japanese correspondent concerning what they saw when visiting big 3 motorcycle manufacturing plants. The Yamaha plant had a bunch of new bikes in a corner; which had been rejected because of production defects which were found. But the Honda and Kawasaki plants had far fewer rejects. It might be argued that Honda and Kawasaki just didn't have as many quality control inspectors; but owner experience of that era demonstrated that the Yamahas were not built to as high a standard. And it showed in the lack of reliability and shorter life expectancy of those machines.
Kip.....maybe the workers at the foreign companies' factories are being taxed like the ones at domestic factories....but on the contrary.....the foreign companies will NOT build a factory unless the state gives away the farm! Years ago, when Toyota was deciding where to put it's factory, the state of Kentucky lowered their pants and bent over to get Toyota to put their factory in Georgetown. As I best remember, Toyota got the state of Mississippi to build them a state of the art factory. When the car industry went down the crapper, Toyota told Mississippi "thanks a lot....but we're not going to use this factory you built for us". I'm sure there are incentives for other industries as well that states provide.
If you last Big 3 vehicle was a 98, I'm not sure you can speak first hand about the quality of today's vehicles. Buildings constucted 50 years ago had aesbestos when they were build. A lot has changed.
I can see the possibility of incentives being granted from any given state, but, as always, the difference of opinion is where do you draw the line?
If they give them a property tax abatement for 5-10 years, I can see that as reasonable, because the land was probably not drawing any taxes anyway if it was raw wilderness land, so, the state/county loses nothing, but gains the jobs, income taxes from employees, and the potential of all the businesses that move in to service the factory, whether suppliers, restaurants, clothing stores, etc....even if the state pays for upgrading highways, railroad tracks, etc, as long as the company pays the cost of the factory, then they have an incentive to actually use the plant, so less risk to the state...
But if the state built the factory at their (taxpayer) expense then the company has no costs whatsoever, and that was stupid of the state to do that, as the company can walk away and lose nothing, so this would be ridiculous to me...
To offer an incentive, yes, to pay for the entire shootin' match, NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The historic destruction competitions of the Northwest Coast Indians are totally different than either riots or wars. The big difference is that each tribe brought THEIR OWN VALUABLES to the ceremony to destroy. No tribe destroyed anybody else's property. They only competed to see who could destroy the greatest quantity of their own stuff. This was done as a noble demonstration of disdain for material posessions. In contrast; wars and riots are expressions of hostility, greed, and envy.
If we were to replace our wars and riots with the voluntary, disciplined self destruction of our own legitimately obtained posessions; the effect of stimulating the economy would be similar to that which is created by wars; but there would be no suffering, injury, or loss of life. Wouldn't that be a better way to live??? Who would not benefit from such a change?
Well, A lot has changed since the japanese first sold their vehicles in the 60's and 70's which many folks here seem to base their opinions (biases) on relative to more current Japanese imports which consistently rank at the top of the Consumer Reports and other quality-related surveys.
As if these people who buy Toyota after Honda after Nissan after Subaru have any reason to switch back to a GM, Ford Chrysler that they got burned on just a few years ago.
My friend was a service manager for a Buick/GMC/Pontiac dealer for years, got free service and parts at cost. Was a diehard "Buy American" "Buy GM!" who had never owned, let alone even gave an import a chance. Just the same preconceived notion that they were inferior based on his parents buying choices, a few internet forums and just all out blind ignorance.
He now has a 2007 Tundra which has been near perfect and a Toyota Highlander which is about a year and a half old and also flawless.
Before that? Not one, but 2! lemon GMC Sierras (one which never was lemoned but dumped for a "steal" to a co-worker and the other an actual :lemon: ).
Tell me, why in hell would he think of returning to GM?
Blind patriotism? His Tundra was built in Texas. His wifes Highlander product is, or is going to be transferred to Indiana.
Better Quality? The Tundra has been fine for 65k or so based on the last time I spoke with him. Had one recall for a suspension component... The first Sierra was lemoned before the warranty was up and the second Sierra was dumped at 40k. Both had problems with Intermediate Sterring shafts, rear diffs, brakes, fuel pumps, wheel bearings and rear axles.
I don't know what's left to say here. To me it seems like your message is to support GM out of some sort of pity. Sorry, Government Motors is not some charity case that we Americans are obligated to support. There is nothing in the rulebooks that says we have to forgive Detroilet and GM for the decades of garbage that they ADMITTEDLY foisted on the buying public.
The whole "give us a try again" and "things have changed" doesn't get you very far when you're talking to folks who threw 20, 30, 40 maybe even 50 thousand bucks down the toilet on one (or even more than one in many instances) of these supposedly "superior" offerings from GM. There are too many other choices out there. And it's the consumers right to choose the product that fits their needs.
With Ford being so innovative lately in the cockpit, here's a great idea (Ford, are you listening?) - you know how the iPod has a setting where you can limit the max volume to protect kid's ears? How about Ford or somebody else adding to their software a setting where the owner can configure the rev limiter limit speed anywhere between say, 85 and 130 mph? Then protect the setting with a password! It is that kind of innovation that could be a great advertising feature.
The whole "give us a try again" and "things have changed" doesn't get you very far when you're talking to folks who threw 20, 30, 40 maybe even 50 thousand bucks down the toilet on one (or even more than one in many instances) of these supposedly "superior" offerings from GM. There are too many other choices out there. And it's the consumers right to choose the product that fits their needs.
It especially doesn't get you very far, because the whole "try us again, were different now" crying from the Big 3 was already tried and used back in the 90's by the domestic Big 3 to apologize for the 80's and early 90's garbage sold to people. They've already gone down that road and the mid and late 90's stuff was still garbage.
The boy who cried wolf I say.... No way will I fall for that line of filth and lies again. Show me the money! I don't want words, I want warranties not backed by the gov't. I want YOUR money where your mouth is. Not the same as before you say??? Then warranty the car bumper to bumper for 10 years or 100,000 miles, no exceptions, and no bailouts to fund the warranty costs (Chrylser/GM, you hear me?).
Good riddens!!!
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Why not just buy them a 50 HP car instead? Tata Motors anyone? Or maybe Ford should make a large SAFE Taurus (if that's your response regarding size and safety) with a weak 1.5 4 cylinder motor pumping out around 100 HP ala Honda Fit.
I don't like the idea of a driver's ability to "step on it" being hampered in an emergency situation by some nanny control.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I don't like the idea of a driver's ability to "step on it" being hampered in an emergency situation by some nanny control.
Agreed - we should differentiate between "speed limiter" and "rev limiter". I was advocating "speed limiter". You should still get full power if you're going 60 and need to step on it. It just would cap your top speed. I can't imagine too many situations where you are going 100 and REALLY need to go 120. :P
Love this back and forth, guys, keep it up. As I dig deep to decide if my next purchase is built in America by. . . . probably Ford, though that new Regal GS has captured my attention for the moment. I'm very leery, though, as I don't wish to be burnt again . . . though that was back in '98 with a T/A that was in their garage more than mine. :sick:
"The big difference is that each tribe brought THEIR OWN VALUABLES to the ceremony to destroy"...that is why the Detroit riots have been mocked for years...they set fire and burned down their own homes "in protest" and when they woke up a few days later it suddenly dawned on them that the only people whose lives were ruined and homeless were theirs...amazing what destruction people with a collective IQ of 75 can do...
>".....the foreign companies will NOT build a factory unless the state gives away the farm! Years ago, when Toyota was deciding where to put it's factory, the state of Kentucky lowered their pants and bent over to get Toyota to put their factory in Georgetown. As I best remember, Toyota got the state of Mississippi to build them a state of the art factory. When the car industry went down the crapper, Toyota told Mississippi "thanks a lot....but we're not going to use this factory you built for us". I'm sure there are incentives for other industries as well that states provide. "
tbone, I'll take your word concerning the Toyota Mississippi thing as I'm not familiar with it.
So, To the best of your knowledge, is that building sitting idle now?
If one of the D3 decided to build a new plant, do you think the states would compete for that business in every way possible, including tax incentives, just to put people to work and knowing support facilities would move in and create an additional tax base? OR do they only do that for the foreign companies?
Staying on that thought, would the D3 company say, "Naw we won't take the freebies" we want to spend our own money and pay our fair share of taxes to support your state".
That's why the riots in LA made no sense to me. Why are you looting and burning down your own neighborhood? If you want to send a message, burn down and loot Beverly Hills!
>"The Yamaha plant had a bunch of new bikes in a corner; which had been rejected because of production defects which were found. But the Honda and Kawasaki plants had far fewer rejects. It might be argued that Honda and Kawasaki just didn't have as many quality control inspectors; but owner experience of that era demonstrated that the Yamahas were not built to as high a standard. And it showed in the lack of reliability and shorter life expectancy of those machines. "
In the late 70 I owned 3 Yamaha bikes. First one was a DT175 which I used for both transportation and Enduro competition. In those days "Enduros" started at a given point, might crisscross 2-4 counties for a total of 90-120 miles and back to the starting point. The terrain covered every type of terrain known to man. Swamps, impossible creek crossings, and incredibly steep and mostly rocky hills. The riders had no idea where they would be going except for a route chart taped to the tank or in a route chart holder. And there would be the occational arrow. My DT175 only failed me once in the years I owned it. And that was due to the fact that I had failed to grease an area. No way can I complain concerning it's reliability.
Eventually traded that one for a DT250 which was used for the same purposes. Zero failures. Traded that for a 350 twin 2 stroke road bike while some injures healed. No failures! Traded that for another DT175 in the early 80s. No failures! I can't speak of the Honda and Kawasaki bikes, but it is hard to consider how their reliability would have been any better than ZERO FAILURES.
>" If you want to send a message, burn down and loot Beverly Hills! "
I agree! However....
If they burned down Beverly Hills they would loose the support of the Hollywood elite. We are talking about the same crowd that piss and moan about the poor conditions of those too lazy to work. But if those same "Poor" individuals actually affected the rich and famous, it would be a different story.
Just like they hire illegals to do domestic work but would change their minds, big time, if the "Gangs" moved in on their streets. :sick:
>"If you last Big 3 vehicle was a 98, I'm not sure you can speak first hand about the quality of today's vehicles."
True. But the experience of over 5 decades of driving has had a lasting effect. The last 2 VW vehicles I owned, Rabbit and Jetta, were by far the most unreliable of any of the 70+ plus that have sat in our garage. The Asian vehicles were the most reliable.
Also Consumers Report yearly evaluations over they years seemed to Zero in on the exact problems I experienced. Their latest reports still show the American stable as being more problematic than the Asian variety.
I think Ford has a good line up and they are going to do well. As for GM, the have the Malibu which seems pretty inovative and the Caddilac CTS. Can't believe thay killed the Pontiac nameplate. The G8 is a great car. I hear that they are going to build the G8 strictly for police cruisers. And then you have Chrysler. Can't see them staying alive. No new products, but I do hear they will be putting the Viper V10 in the Challeger for a limited run of cars.
>Consumers Report yearly evaluations over they years seemed to Zero in on the exact problems I experienced. Their latest reports still show the American stable as being more problematic than the Asian variety.
Ah, yes. That's a quality assessment tool, Consumer Misreports. Someone who does a convenience mailing and passes it off as a meaningful survey.
To be honest, your correct about the CR evals except for Ford! Ford is pretty much stable and on par with the Japanese, Korean, and German competition!
GM and especially Chrysler on the other hand still have problematic models!
Ah, yes. That's a quality assessment tool, Consumer Misreports. Someone who does a convenience mailing and passes it off as a meaningful survey.
You know, even if their survey was meaningless (which IMHO is far from the case), dismissing it is NOT going to help anybody. Much of the public relies on it, and there is enough user experience to indicated that GM and others have had significant reliability issues. (..and yes, I know about Toyota sludge and Honda transmissions!).
The fact remains that more people have been bailing from GM and C than bailing from Toyota and Honda. I wonder why that is?
Unlike in the '80's, the Japanese nameplates are not even less expensive anymore.
I guess it is the brainwashed and ill-informed masses, right? :P :shades:
"That's why the riots in LA made no sense to me"...does ANY rioting ever make any sense, except to cause those who PAY taxes to flee the area, leaving behind those parts of the city that everyone avoids forever...
I do remember some blurb in the paper around the time of Rodney King riots that some local "riot participant" said that they were tired of destroying of burning down their own neighborhoods (duh...ya think?) and next time they were going to burn down Rodeo Drive...like someone just said, if they anger the Hollywood elites, then they will REALLY be in deep doo doo, because no liberal likes his favorite "cause" to come back and bite him in the a**...like Martin Sheen who marches for the homeless but won't let any of them with 100 miles of his house... :surprise: :shades:
Do you have a link to the graph that shows the reliability of various car brands from JD Powers? I can't find a link; I just find 1-5 button tables...
The differences in problems reported between various brands is minute today. That's especially true in the top half of the brands. In past years those problems per 100 vehicles were much greater.
I sit back as I read about the CR-V AC compressors blowing up and the Odyssey transmissions going out of people who bought those because they were the "so much better than those Big Three cars." It's a hoot to watch them post that they'll never buy another Honda. In 2003 more posters started complaining about problems with their Hotoys. I recall in about 2003 that people in the Honda and toyota forums were bragging about how they didn't have to use incentives like "those" US automakers. My how the worm has turned. I saw a toyota ad for less than $100 for leasing for a Corolla, or maybe another of their cars. Hmmmm.
passes it off as a meaningful survey while you, I, and a whole lot of other auto enthusiasts may not be in line with CR's demonstrated priorities: safety, FE, reliability (in no particular order) it would seem foolish to dismiss the results of what amounts to about a miilion 'meaningless' surveys. A whole lot more 'meaningful' IMO than those often laughable 'invent a category' JDP 'awards' when that organization is in it for the money - last time I checked
First, I actually agree with you that Honda (and especially Toyota) have slipped this decade. Have you admitted about how shoddy a lot of GM products have been?
Second, ANYBODY can find ANY BRAND that has had some issues.
The reality is a lot more complicated:
What percentage of models have had problems? What percentage within the models have had problems? How many of those problems were major vs. minor? How did the company handle the situation? How did the dealers handle the situation? (this is often not under manufacturer control) What percentage of each make's OTHER vehicles are highly reliable? Etc.
If we know that maker A had problem X, then it could be that it was a major problem, but 99.9% of users never saw this problem. Alternatively, maker B could have problem Y and 30% of drivers had this problem. Yet we can always talk about brand A and that horrible X problem! But the fact still remains that brand B migh suck worse!
Fact remains, more people moving AWAY from GM/C than TO GM/C. Even now. Even though most US citizens (myself included) would buy a US make if the vehicles were at least as good (and we believed it).
Plus, I'm not inclined to support bailed-out companies (GM, C, banks, finance houses, ALL OF THEM). I just opened a credit union account and I am about to dump my big mega-bank that was bailed out. Everybody reading this should do the same. Free checking and a co-op network of ATMs at no fee all over the country - more than any single bank.
I'm also not inclined to support organized labor (UAW) that is acting just like the unions that are bankrupting our governments and ruining our educational system.
So I don't think the "worm has turned" that much. Just MHO.
That's why the riots in LA made no sense to me. Why are you looting and burning down your own neighborhood? If you want to send a message, burn down and loot Beverly Hills!
Because there was a lot of division between those who sold 40oz. Malt Liquor and those who bought and drank 40 oz. containers of malt liquor. Maybe they were mad that the prices for those Forties went up recently?
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Ah, yes. That's a quality assessment tool, Consumer Misreports. Someone who does a convenience mailing and passes it off as a meaningful survey.
Actually, I've experienced the same thing. I find that Consumer Reports is able to zero-in accurately on the problems I've experienced with the vehicles I've owned. Their accuracy is impeccable. They are like the world's greatest sniper when it comes to accuracy. Or like Joe Montana for the accuracy of a quarterback.
Consumer Reports, they tell it like it is.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
You may very well have to accelerate out of the way of danger from vehicle UA (hoax or not) since the hoaxes are becoming commonplace.
Even a novice driver may need to attempt to accelerate out of danger.
Now if your talking about driving a RWD car and having fun accelerating your back end around a sharp turn at high speed, I might agree a novice driver may not want to try that on a fun road lined with trees for their first time.
I'd recommend an empty parking lot or track for novices.
However, you can't discount the possibility that even a driver on the first day with their license may need to accelerate out of danger. Sure, it's unlikely, but always possible.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
However, you can't discount the possibility that even a driver on the first day with their license may need to accelerate out of danger. Sure, it's unlikely, but always possible.
Oh, sure I can!
I would argue that a novice driver attempting to "accelerate out of danger" is more likely to make matters worse than better. Because when his attempt fails and his car hits the ditch/tree/other car/pedestrian, it will be traveling at a higher rate of speed. :lemon:
The very fact that we are talking about novices implies a lack of experience to judge when such a maneuver is feasible and a lack of skill to execute it. :sick:
I WILL agree with you, in that public roads are not the ideal place to develop such skills.
Oh.... and one more thing. In addition to the speed/power limitation, I think that the stereo volume limitation is genius!
As for the seat-belt chime nagging, I would prefer an interlock for 100% compliance, (again, for the novice-driver key). Everyone buckles-up or no-go. Yeah-yeah, I know.... what about the teen daughter, alone in the parking lot and a drug-crazed rapist is trying to break into the car with a tire iron. That happens all the time in my neighborhood too.
Comments
BAHHH HAAAAH HAAAH HAAAH Boy, you are a funny one.Very funny:
http://www.usatoday.com/_ads/interstitial/2008/page/interstitial.htm?http://www.- usatoday.com/money/autos/2010-06-14-toyotasteering14_CV_N.htm
Can't get a bad Toymotor. HAAAAAAH HAAAAAAHHA! A ROTFLMAO if there ever was one.
I think we need to kidnap lemko, put him in a straightjacket, and make him ride in a Lexus or a Mercedes for 100 miles on open road! Let's see if he keeps his sanity!
Regards:
Oldengineer
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=SbuDRA4zNbw
At the 2:40 mark it appears that smoke is coming from under the hood or wheel well. Kind of flaws the commercial for me. Wonder why the Cadillac "Quality Control" folks didn't catch that! :confuse:
Kip
You point this out in your post.
However the B3 have problems for many years without doing anything to correct them. Example: The small block Chevy engines tended to leak oil from the valve covers and the rear crank seals for decades. They ran well so folks continued to buy them, but they still leaked. The "FIX" was to have a box of sand in the carport or garage to catch the oil.
I owned a BUNCH of small block Chevys over the years and they all leaked. Me thinks they did finally address the problem sometime in the 90s. Not sure exactly when because I had switched to Pontiac before the Chevy "Fix" came into play.
Several of the GM products, including our 87 Olds, used timing gears with some type of synthetic tips on the teeth. They would eventually wear or break off and occasionally cause the timing chain to "Skip A Tooth", which may or may not lead to engine failure.
Ford and Chrysler had their problems also, and all 3 insisted on using really bad carburetors long after many or most of the foreign manufacturers were switching over to Fuel Injection. And the imports that stayed with carburetion, used carburetors that actually worked well.
My last new "American" made product was a 98 Dodge ram Pickup. Shortly after getting it I noticed a "TICK" in the steering. When starting away from a stopped condition. It was obvious enough that the Dealer tech didn't even try to say he didn't observe the problem. They replaced the steering column and the "NEW" one allowed the gearshift to shift the tranny into any gear without pulling back on the lever. It was simply free to move up and down without detenting. They replaced it again and problem solved.
After that test drive the tech showed me oil leaks around the outside of the intake manifold. He said it had been going on for a few years and would eventually lead to rough engine running, especially in overdrive. Chrysler knew of the problem but would not issue a recall. If I complained they would fix it, It surprised me because I have owned several Chrysler V8s, First one was a '55 Plymouth, and never had leaks, until that 98 model.
Zaken wrote:" For a good example; try "2005 Honda Odyssey EX 4 door minivan with leather, Nav, and entertainment (3.5L 6cyl 5A)" How many problems do you expect the factory would have identified on this model? (the answer is 123). "
That doesn't mean there are 123 problems on every '05 Odyssey. It means there have been 123 reported problems that could be hard to find or that will make the car more reliable. Those TSBs are a reference library for technicians, for fast reliable repairs, should a problem show up. Point is that they all have their problems, but the ones that recognize their responsibility to the customers will win the battle.
Example: Our mid 80s Toyota Cressida developed a vibration noise under certain conditions. I took it to the dealer and was told they had a TSB on that. There were several techs sitting on a wall waiting for something to do. One of them took the car away for less than 15 minutes and brought it back. Seems it was the heat shield around the Catalytic Convertor, that over time with all the heat, would do something to cause it to vibrate. Never did it again after that visit. The TSB let him know what to look for and how to fix it, fast.
Also I was the only customer in the receiving area . Next door was a Buick dealer with cars and their owners sitting outside waiting to see a service writer. I did hear one of the Toyota techs say, "I should have gone to work over there!"
As GMs new slogan says, "Let the best car win".
Kip
If you want to see depression, go visit Detroit. Come visit the North side and the South side of Atlanta where Ford and GM used to live.
Then go visit towns and cities where cars are being built by American labor and parts and service supplied to them by more American workers. They are buying food and clothing and other services from even more Americans. Chances are good that the name on the outside of those manufacturing plants will say Toyota, Honda, Kia, Nissan, and many other Asian as well as German and others. All putting Americans to work.
Which is best? To buy a Chevy built in Mexico/Canada or a Honda build right here in the good ole US of A? Yeah, it would be nice to buy a QUALITY American name plate built by Americans, just for the sake of pride. But what would that really add to the economy as far as the average Joe is concerned. Don't you think that maybe the foreign manufacturing plants are being taxed just like the American ones.
Several years ago Yamaha opened a plant in Newnan Ga. to build jet ski and and 4 wheelers. It is on the East side of I85 and there was not much else there, other than the sleepy little town of Newnan on the West side of I85. In a short time, food establishments, clothing stores, and you name it sprung up to cater to the Yamaha employees. Then houses started being built. And of course a Walmart moved in near Yamaha. None of those new business had any problem with where the home office of Yamaha is.
The D3 don't have any scruples about manufacturing in foreign countries and many on this forum obviously don't either. So why have a problem when the tables are turned?
While the president of Honda may not have been to my house or paid any of my bills, neither has the president of GM.
So we shut down the foreign manufacturers in this country and put hundreds of thousands of Americans out of work. What happens to the economy?
We do have a strong automobile building program. Just the names have changed.
Kip
...and the L.A. riots of the '90's.
I read once that most wars boil down to: "They have it. We want it. Let's go get it."
On a similar note, about 45 years ago; a major motorcycle magazine published an article by their Japanese correspondent concerning what they saw when visiting big 3 motorcycle manufacturing plants. The Yamaha plant had a bunch of new bikes in a corner; which had been rejected because of production defects which were found. But the Honda and Kawasaki plants had far fewer rejects. It might be argued that Honda and Kawasaki just didn't have as many quality control inspectors; but owner experience of that era demonstrated that the Yamahas were not built to as high a standard. And it showed in the lack of reliability and shorter life expectancy of those machines.
If they give them a property tax abatement for 5-10 years, I can see that as reasonable, because the land was probably not drawing any taxes anyway if it was raw wilderness land, so, the state/county loses nothing, but gains the jobs, income taxes from employees, and the potential of all the businesses that move in to service the factory, whether suppliers, restaurants, clothing stores, etc....even if the state pays for upgrading highways, railroad tracks, etc, as long as the company pays the cost of the factory, then they have an incentive to actually use the plant, so less risk to the state...
But if the state built the factory at their (taxpayer) expense then the company has no costs whatsoever, and that was stupid of the state to do that, as the company can walk away and lose nothing, so this would be ridiculous to me...
To offer an incentive, yes, to pay for the entire shootin' match, NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If we were to replace our wars and riots with the voluntary, disciplined self destruction of our own legitimately obtained posessions; the effect of stimulating the economy would be similar to that which is created by wars; but there would be no suffering, injury, or loss of life. Wouldn't that be a better way to live??? Who would not benefit from such a change?
As if these people who buy Toyota after Honda after Nissan after Subaru have any reason to switch back to a GM, Ford Chrysler that they got burned on just a few years ago.
My friend was a service manager for a Buick/GMC/Pontiac dealer for years, got free service and parts at cost. Was a diehard "Buy American" "Buy GM!" who had never owned, let alone even gave an import a chance. Just the same preconceived notion that they were inferior based on his parents buying choices, a few internet forums and just all out blind ignorance.
He now has a 2007 Tundra which has been near perfect and a Toyota Highlander which is about a year and a half old and also flawless.
Before that? Not one, but 2! lemon GMC Sierras (one which never was lemoned but dumped for a "steal" to a co-worker and the other an actual :lemon: ).
Tell me, why in hell would he think of returning to GM?
Blind patriotism? His Tundra was built in Texas. His wifes Highlander product is, or is going to be transferred to Indiana.
Better Quality? The Tundra has been fine for 65k or so based on the last time I spoke with him. Had one recall for a suspension component... The first Sierra was lemoned before the warranty was up and the second Sierra was dumped at 40k. Both had problems with Intermediate Sterring shafts, rear diffs, brakes, fuel pumps, wheel bearings and rear axles.
I don't know what's left to say here. To me it seems like your message is to support GM out of some sort of pity. Sorry, Government Motors is not some charity case that we Americans are obligated to support. There is nothing in the rulebooks that says we have to forgive Detroilet and GM for the decades of garbage that they ADMITTEDLY foisted on the buying public.
The whole "give us a try again" and "things have changed" doesn't get you very far when you're talking to folks who threw 20, 30, 40 maybe even 50 thousand bucks down the toilet on one (or even more than one in many instances) of these supposedly "superior" offerings from GM. There are too many other choices out there. And it's the consumers right to choose the product that fits their needs.
Welcome to America, enjoy your stay.
You mean like giving bad data to NHSTA and stalling for years?
Or do you mean blaming the owners for engine sludging for years before finally admitting there might, might be a design component.
Or you mean like the Odyssey transmissions, and their fellow many Honda transmissions earlier, like are in the Odyssey discussion here on Edmunds?
Gimme a break. They put their wheels on one at a time at the foreign make factories just like the Detroit three do./
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Wow, that is an excellent idea!!
MyKey
It especially doesn't get you very far, because the whole "try us again, were different now" crying from the Big 3 was already tried and used back in the 90's by the domestic Big 3 to apologize for the 80's and early 90's garbage sold to people. They've already gone down that road and the mid and late 90's stuff was still garbage.
The boy who cried wolf I say.... No way will I fall for that line of filth and lies again. Show me the money! I don't want words, I want warranties not backed by the gov't. I want YOUR money where your mouth is. Not the same as before you say??? Then warranty the car bumper to bumper for 10 years or 100,000 miles, no exceptions, and no bailouts to fund the warranty costs (Chrylser/GM, you hear me?).
Good riddens!!!
I don't like the idea of a driver's ability to "step on it" being hampered in an emergency situation by some nanny control.
GimME a break! It'll take much more than 4th rate advertising to get me to even consider the Detroit offerings.
Nothing is perfect but Detroit has far to go afaic.
REgards,
OW
Biden expounding to about 100 sleepy Democrats.
Talked about banks paying back their loans and GM starting to do the same.
Admonished the crowd, "if all of you in this room would drive American cars, and only American cars, they could pay back that loan a lot quicker."
BIDEN: 'I'M A POLITICAN, AND AM PROUD OF IT!'
Pool Report 6-15-10
Sam Youngman
White House correspondent
The Hill
Is that new? I didn't know anything about it, honest!
Agreed - we should differentiate between "speed limiter" and "rev limiter". I was advocating "speed limiter". You should still get full power if you're going 60 and need to step on it. It just would cap your top speed. I can't imagine too many situations where you are going 100 and REALLY need to go 120. :P
tbone,
I'll take your word concerning the Toyota Mississippi thing as I'm not familiar with it.
So, To the best of your knowledge, is that building sitting idle now?
If one of the D3 decided to build a new plant, do you think the states would compete for that business in every way possible, including tax incentives, just to put people to work and knowing support facilities would move in and create an additional tax base? OR do they only do that for the foreign companies?
Staying on that thought, would the D3 company say, "Naw we won't take the freebies" we want to spend our own money and pay our fair share of taxes to support your state".
Thanks,
Kip
In the late 70 I owned 3 Yamaha bikes. First one was a DT175 which I used for both transportation and Enduro competition. In those days "Enduros" started at a given point, might crisscross 2-4 counties for a total of 90-120 miles and back to the starting point. The terrain covered every type of terrain known to man. Swamps, impossible creek crossings, and incredibly steep and mostly rocky hills. The riders had no idea where they would be going except for a route chart taped to the tank or in a route chart holder. And there would be the occational arrow. My DT175 only failed me once in the years I owned it. And that was due to the fact that I had failed to grease an area. No way can I complain concerning it's reliability.
Eventually traded that one for a DT250 which was used for the same purposes. Zero failures. Traded that for a 350 twin 2 stroke road bike while some injures healed. No failures! Traded that for another DT175 in the early 80s. No failures! I can't speak of the Honda and Kawasaki bikes, but it is hard to consider how their reliability would have been any better than ZERO FAILURES.
Your mileage may vary!
Kip
I agree! However....
If they burned down Beverly Hills they would loose the support of the Hollywood elite. We are talking about the same crowd that piss and moan about the poor conditions of those too lazy to work. But if those same "Poor" individuals actually affected the rich and famous, it would be a different story.
Just like they hire illegals to do domestic work but would change their minds, big time, if the "Gangs" moved in on their streets. :sick:
True. But the experience of over 5 decades of driving has had a lasting effect. The last 2 VW vehicles I owned, Rabbit and Jetta, were by far the most unreliable of any of the 70+ plus that have sat in our garage. The Asian vehicles were the most reliable.
Also Consumers Report yearly evaluations over they years seemed to Zero in on the exact problems I experienced. Their latest reports still show the American stable as being more problematic than the Asian variety.
Kip
Can't believe thay killed the Pontiac nameplate. The G8 is a great car. I hear that they are going to build the G8 strictly for police cruisers.
And then you have Chrysler. Can't see them staying alive. No new products, but I do hear they will be putting the Viper V10 in the Challeger for a limited run of cars.
Ah, yes. That's a quality assessment tool, Consumer Misreports. Someone who does a convenience mailing and passes it off as a meaningful survey.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
GM and especially Chrysler on the other hand still have problematic models!
You know, even if their survey was meaningless (which IMHO is far from the case), dismissing it is NOT going to help anybody. Much of the public relies on it, and there is enough user experience to indicated that GM and others have had significant reliability issues. (..and yes, I know about Toyota sludge and Honda transmissions!).
The fact remains that more people have been bailing from GM and C than bailing from Toyota and Honda. I wonder why that is?
Unlike in the '80's, the Japanese nameplates are not even less expensive anymore.
I guess it is the brainwashed and ill-informed masses, right?
I do remember some blurb in the paper around the time of Rodney King riots that some local "riot participant" said that they were tired of destroying of burning down their own neighborhoods (duh...ya think?) and next time they were going to burn down Rodeo Drive...like someone just said, if they anger the Hollywood elites, then they will REALLY be in deep doo doo, because no liberal likes his favorite "cause" to come back and bite him in the a**...like Martin Sheen who marches for the homeless but won't let any of them with 100 miles of his house...
The differences in problems reported between various brands is minute today. That's especially true in the top half of the brands. In past years those problems per 100 vehicles were much greater.
I sit back as I read about the CR-V AC compressors blowing up and the Odyssey transmissions going out of people who bought those because they were the "so much better than those Big Three cars." It's a hoot to watch them post that they'll never buy another Honda. In 2003 more posters started complaining about problems with their Hotoys. I recall in about 2003 that people in the Honda and toyota forums were bragging about how they didn't have to use incentives like "those" US automakers. My how the worm has turned. I saw a toyota ad for less than $100 for leasing for a Corolla, or maybe another of their cars. Hmmmm.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
while you, I, and a whole lot of other auto enthusiasts may not be in line with CR's demonstrated priorities: safety, FE, reliability (in no particular order) it would seem foolish to dismiss the results of what amounts to about a miilion 'meaningless' surveys.
A whole lot more 'meaningful' IMO than those often laughable 'invent a category' JDP 'awards' when that organization is in it for the money - last time I checked
First, I actually agree with you that Honda (and especially Toyota) have slipped this decade. Have you admitted about how shoddy a lot of GM products have been?
Second, ANYBODY can find ANY BRAND that has had some issues.
The reality is a lot more complicated:
What percentage of models have had problems?
What percentage within the models have had problems?
How many of those problems were major vs. minor?
How did the company handle the situation?
How did the dealers handle the situation? (this is often not under manufacturer control)
What percentage of each make's OTHER vehicles are highly reliable?
Etc.
If we know that maker A had problem X, then it could be that it was a major problem, but 99.9% of users never saw this problem. Alternatively, maker B could have problem Y and 30% of drivers had this problem. Yet we can always talk about brand A and that horrible X problem! But the fact still remains that brand B migh suck worse!
Fact remains, more people moving AWAY from GM/C than TO GM/C. Even now. Even though most US citizens (myself included) would buy a US make if the vehicles were at least as good (and we believed it).
Plus, I'm not inclined to support bailed-out companies (GM, C, banks, finance houses, ALL OF THEM). I just opened a credit union account and I am about to dump my big mega-bank that was bailed out. Everybody reading this should do the same. Free checking and a co-op network of ATMs at no fee all over the country - more than any single bank.
I'm also not inclined to support organized labor (UAW) that is acting just like the unions that are bankrupting our governments and ruining our educational system.
So I don't think the "worm has turned" that much. Just MHO.
Because there was a lot of division between those who sold 40oz. Malt Liquor and those who bought and drank 40 oz. containers of malt liquor. Maybe they were mad that the prices for those Forties went up recently?
Actually, I've experienced the same thing. I find that Consumer Reports is able to zero-in accurately on the problems I've experienced with the vehicles I've owned. Their accuracy is impeccable. They are like the world's greatest sniper when it comes to accuracy. Or like Joe Montana for the accuracy of a quarterback.
Consumer Reports, they tell it like it is.
You may very well have to accelerate out of the way of danger from vehicle UA (hoax or not) since the hoaxes are becoming commonplace.
Even a novice driver may need to attempt to accelerate out of danger.
Now if your talking about driving a RWD car and having fun accelerating your back end around a sharp turn at high speed, I might agree a novice driver may not want to try that on a fun road lined with trees for their first time.
I'd recommend an empty parking lot or track for novices.
However, you can't discount the possibility that even a driver on the first day with their license may need to accelerate out of danger. Sure, it's unlikely, but always possible.
Oh, sure I can!
I would argue that a novice driver attempting to "accelerate out of danger" is more likely to make matters worse than better. Because when his attempt fails and his car hits the ditch/tree/other car/pedestrian, it will be traveling at a higher rate of speed. :lemon:
The very fact that we are talking about novices implies a lack of experience to judge when such a maneuver is feasible and a lack of skill to execute it. :sick:
I WILL agree with you, in that public roads are not the ideal place to develop such skills.
As for the seat-belt chime nagging, I would prefer an interlock for 100% compliance, (again, for the novice-driver key). Everyone buckles-up or no-go. Yeah-yeah, I know.... what about the teen daughter, alone in the parking lot and a drug-crazed rapist is trying to break into the car with a tire iron. That happens all the time in my neighborhood too.