I know this forum is specifically for cars, but I think he was speaking in a macro sense. For example, I just bought a nice pair of New Balance sneakers. Made in USA. $44, sitting on the rack with their Chinese counterparts for the same price. I went online a couple weeks ago and bought a pair of work boots made here for $125. If you look, it's not that hard to find "Made In USA".
Living within our means? Now THAT is an issue that dragged us down big time this recession. When we want it, we want it NOW, and not later. We have to break that.
As far as GM, I don't think they "over price" in the sense that they purposely look for top dollar. They do price competitively within the class, but the incentives come from not having used the best materials, or allowing a vehicle to linger unchanged for far too long. They got away with that for a long time because the trucks were selling w/o incentives, and they made the big bucks for GM. They basically ignored their cars for almost 20 years while they concentrated on trucks.
My Lacrosse sells for just a $1000 conquest or loyalty rebate, and that hasn't changed in the almost 10 months the car has been out. That is FAR below the industry average, which proves that when they get it right, they are no different than any other car mfr. in the marketplace.
Agreed, no different, WHEN they get it right. But the best cars have been out-selling GM for years. The 2008 CTS and your car are the best that can compete today.
They got away with that for a long time because the trucks were selling w/o incentives, and they made the big bucks for GM. They basically ignored their cars for almost 20 years while they concentrated on trucks.
What I don't get is how people like Wagoner, the Board, and yes even Lutz can be so handsomely rewarded for obviously having no strategic plan for the day when trucks and SUV sales tanked if the economy went down or fuel prices spiked up. We all knew that was a real possibility, right? :mad:
Isn't your Lacrosse covered with a 100k warranty??? I'am not sure, but any manufacturer that tosses in a sweetner of lifetime care is hungry for sales and will handle the warranty claims as a future expense, but really is a strong enticement or rebate up front..Some of the creations coming out of Korean owned companies have offered 100k warranties from the getgo+hefty cash rebates and even assistance on car payments if one became unemployed..One might say that it approaches the cradle to grave blanket care being touted by some of our politicans..
The old GM started the 100K with the 2007 Model yr realizing they were headed down the "Tube", and with the Govt takeover it was extended because our Govt can hide additional costs since we the taxpayers are supporting GM..Once the IPO is complete, then the new shareholders get the "haircut"..
On my short drive to the beach yesterday I noticed on several Hyundias rear bumpers or windows, political stickers, anyone want to guess which party seem to be their favorite???? Here I thought that party was strong on union support and these people are buying cars assembled in the USA by non-union workers..
"New Balance" is the my shoe, also, and it will continue to be, for our retail stores are loaded with off-wall merchandise from every country but the USA..
Congratulations on your Buick!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can remember working with Buick purchasing and engineering back in 70's when it was a major player in Flint, Mich.., was running a supplier plant 30 miles away, producing springs, wireforms, and stampings..Flint is a "Ghost Town", worse than Detroit if that is possible, both would qualify for Cuba comparison..
>The old GM started the 100K with the 2007 Model yr realizing they were headed down the "Tube", and with the Govt takeover it was extended because our Govt can hide additional costs since we the taxpayers are supporting GM..Once the IPO is complete, then the new shareholders get the "haircut"..
Since you turned this political..., how does the extended warranty costs not happen now when the "government" is owning GM (really just have some of the stock) and all happen when the IPO is complete, the government (you) has turned a profit and then the costs are all on the shareholders at a loss?
Considering that the Detroit 3 were loosing money when cars were selling really good! How did GM pay back the loan with interest, during this slow economy? Have the LaCrosse and Malibu sales been that good?
Is GM's 100K drivetrain warranty simply another entitlement? This time to the customer? Something that will be dealt with at a future time, like the UAW retirement and health plans. OR have they actually developed a drive train that will last 100K, so no future expenditures will be necessary?
The last time I went looking for vehicles I told several of the salesmen that their company really needed to match up with KIA for example with the warranty. My last 3 Buicks all went over 100K without drivetrane problems. In fact only my 99 Ford 250 diesel EVER had a transmission problem. Giving away a warranty few will ever use is a no brainer. My current Chev 2500 diesel only has 40K on it with only one trip to the shop for turbo problems... they even fixed the problem outside of warranty. The 06 only had a 36K warranty but that changed soon after I bought mine.
In the OLD days you had to take the vehicle in often for little things going wrong but that doesn't seem to happen anymore. I have only had really 2 lemons and they were the VW Rabbit and a Chev Vega... Consumer Report liked them both. HUMMMM? I think that's why I don't take or read Consumer Report even today.
But you raise the conundrum that had plagued many of us on this topic and others...it is nice to say "Buy American, save your neighbor's job and maybe your own"...but, when it comes to cars, these are major purchases and one wants the best they can get for their money, and, in the last 25 years, buying Big 3 simply has NOT been the best quality for your money (lemko excluded)...the Big 3 must EARN our business by making quality products...we should NOT be buying Big 3 junk just because it is made by our UAW neighbor (that is probably the best reason to AVOID Big 3 cars for the last 30 years)...the real underlying thought should be that our UAW neighbors should be building the BEST cars in the world so that Honda and Toy don't stand a chance, but QUALITY is not what we have been given from Big 3 for many years, so we sought out alternatives that were MUCH better...
You would think that the UAW, watching layoffs and plant closings over the years, would wake up and see that something had to change, but they REFUSED to see it, or they saw it and IGNORED it...like it or not, these people do NOT deserve our business...remember, we did not lose the auto industry, we lost BIG 3 automaking capacity...all of those transplants have Americans making their cars, just non-union workers...we now have numerous plants from Toy, Honda, Nissan, Mercedes, BMW, Hyundai, to name a few...the auto industry here in USA is not dead, just the Big 3 companies that started here...
No one stops to realize this: we lost Packard, Duesenberg, Studebaker, Nash, American Motors, Desoto, Edsel, and numerous brands over the last 50-plus years...losing GM/F/C is just a continuation of the same train, except that now it seems to matter, back then it didn't...
The ONLY reason,. and I mean only, that Big 3 cars are as good as they are today is because of imports...NO OTHER REASON...they had zero motivation to improve on their own, but competetive quality of the imports is why we have better cars today...
If Honda and Toy had not come here in the 80s, Big 3 junk would be no better than the "boat anchor trash" that they sold us in the 1970s...
The ONLY reason,. and I mean only, that Big 3 cars are as good as they are today is because of imports...NO OTHER REASON...they had zero motivation to improve on their own, but competetive quality of the imports is why we have better cars today...
I'd argue that it is UNPATRIOTIC to buy American products if they are not the best, because you are supporting mediocrity, and the job savings will be short-term. If you really want a strong US, you buy the best and that pushes our industries to be competitive. We want our products to be so strong that even those overseas want them and buy them. That's not going to happen if we support junk. We want to kill junk, and kill junky companies.
Take the alternative - let's say GM had NOT been bailed out. There would have been more jobs lost and more disruption for a longer time. But then those people with expertise and the remnants of the company that were valuable would have started new ventures. Today Caddy might be a small company with a group of entrepreneurs who were lean and mean. Today we still have Caddy rebadging Chevy vehicles. We look at what was saved -- but I say what have we lost by not allowing the markets to take their course? We will never know, and it could have been great.
"I'd argue that it is UNPATRIOTIC to buy American products if they are not the best, because you are supporting mediocrity, and the job savings will be short-term. If you really want a strong US, you buy the best and that pushes our industries to be competitive."
That is what I mean...one should not Buy American if the quality is junk, simply because our neighbor makes it...if the market had been left alone, GM would have been disassembled and its best pieces would have been sold off to real entrepreneurs who would make real cars...and the UAW would be just a memory...oh, I can fantasize, can't I?????...
Folks, there is a much bigger picture here that many I read just don't see. In another chat room another person summed it up and I hope this will make you think. "When you decide to buy forgein goods and services you are essentially buying yourself out of a job" This is a shorterm gain, and a longterm loss to the future of the American economy and for future generations. There are plenty of American made products available online and in our stores. Yes, you may pay an extra $1-$2 dollars but the benefits are huge when you decide to keep you dollar at home. Saying there are no quality products made here in the U.S. is ignorance and wrong. The big box stores offer you cheap goods, and NOW. If you can wait for a product to be shipped to you online made in America this will send a huge message to Walmart/Targets ect.. We are now a nation of debt, we are owned by China, does this not matter to you? Do you not understand what this means? Do you even care?
Respect your opinion. When the American-made cars are better, we buy them...oh wait..we already are buying them. They are made here by companies that make better cars than GM, Ford and Chrysler.
we are owned by China, does this not matter to you?
Nope, because it's not true. As of March 2010, the US owed China $895 Billion dollars. That's hardly owning us. I'm far more concerned about what the government will owe me and may not come through, like Social Security and Medicare.
Yes we buy stuff from China and many other countries, but we also sell stuff around the world too. It's called trade. If you want to see a full blown depression, stop trading with other countries. BTW, over 1/2 our trade deficit is due to importing oil.
Our debt problems have little to do with buying from China or other cheap labor countries. Everything could be made here and we would still have budget deficits. The national debt has been growing for the past 100 years. We weren't buying much from China or Japan 50 years ago, yet we were still running deficits.
I guarantee if everything we bought was made in the USA, even more people would be out of a job. Buying from other countries allows them to buy from us. Through comparative advantage, we can build, create, and service what we are most efficient at, and sell the surplus abroad. We buy from other countries that can make certain products more efficiently than we can. That means we will run trade surpluses with some countries and trade deficits with others.
I'd much rather buy textiles from abroad and lose $10-15/hr jobs and help Caterpillar grow by selling their products all over the world while paying $20-30+/hr labor.
GM paid off their loan with interest with borrowed money. They continue to lose billions. The tab is picked up by you and me. Taxpayer subsidies will go on forever until this bankrupt company is closed for good.
"This is a shorterm gain, and a longterm loss to the future of the American economy and for future generations. There are plenty of American made products available online and in our stores. Yes, you may pay an extra $1-$2 dollars but the benefits are huge when you decide to keep you dollar at home."
Everyone agrees with you in principle...but one should not be expected to buy a GM/F/C car if the car is inferior in quality and workmanship...they CAN do better, in fact, they DO do better, because it is American workers making Hondas and Toyotas, but the big factor is that they are non-unionized, so they can lose their jobs by screwing up, UAW folks do not...
Maybe you have extra money lying around to blow it on a UAW junk car, but most of us need to find the best value for our money, and that value may be an import...
Now, on smaller products, like kitchen appliances, sneakers, etc where the cost of an American product is a few dollars more, I say Buy American, but even that has to be comparable quality...we spoke earlier of buying American shirts at $40-50 due to unskilled unionized garment workers at $25/Hour or import shirts for $15 and the workers make $2/hour...it SOUNDS nice to say Buy American, but most of us will only afford 1-2 shirts, whereas we can buy 5 shirts at WalMart...
Like it or not, the jobs went overseas simply because unions demanded wages far in excess of what the unskilled jobs are worth, no different than paying UAW janitors $35/hour plus benefits to sweep a floor that could be done by a college student working part-time for $5/hour, as the job is not even worth minimum wage...honest work???...yes, but that does not make it worth any more than $5/hour...
"......American shirts at $40-50 due to unskilled unionized garment workers at $25/Hour or import shirts for $15 and the workers make $2/hour...it SOUNDS nice to say Buy American, but most of us will only afford 1-2 shirts, whereas we can buy 5 shirts at WalMart... "
What facts can you show to back up this claim??? Here are Carhartt Jeans:
I just bought a pair of American made New Balance sneakers. $44. SAME PRICE as the Chinese made versions on the shelf next to them. How is this possible???
It is possible to buy New Balance at a reasonable price at Big5 stores, though I am not sure if they are the most comfortable shoes these days. I bought Wilson and Prince brands for around $20 or so, and really like the fit. Wide in the toe area. As for American made, the bottoms for ALL running shoes are made abroad. Sorry, but New Balance is no longer 100% USA. Well that is unless something changed recently.
Those carhartt's are great for going to work in, you wouldn't catch me dead in them going out on the town. I do have american made jeans in my closet, but they are lot more than $30, but I like how they look and fit. Style, Brand, and quality of denim play a huge part in determining the cost of jeans.
Shoes and other products are the same way. Many things determine the price of an item other than the labor costs. For something like a name brand name shoe, the labor is probably the smallest unit cost. Engineering/design, sales, Marketing and distribution may have more of an impact on the cost of a product than labor alone.
Tee's, $8. Long sleeve T's are $11. $30 for denim long sleeve shirts. $40 for Jeans. I'm wearing them right now and they are comfortable. They do have a discount rack with 50% off for clearance merchandise.
You CAN find American made clothing at reasonable prices.
Cooter...I do not have any actual sources, just that shirtmaking and other jobs did go overseas due to labor costs and many of those jobs were unionized when they were here...and as soon as you say "union" and "unskilled labor" the obvious conclusion is that they priced themselves out of the market by demanding skilled labor wage rates for unskilled labor...
Also, it is good you have found sites that sell American goods...but it would be quite difficult to do that without this fantastic internet we are on...when many of those unskilled jobs left and the plants were closed (70s, 80s, 90s, when???) most of us did not have the internet to find these all-american stores...so the fact that you have found them is good, but still not as convenient as going to the store and trying them on...I do not fault you, but if the net did not exist, finding these companies might be nearly impossible...
Did labor go overseas entirely because of high union wages here, or was the appeal of paying sweatshop wages "over there" too much to overcome?
I am 52 years old. I'd take the buying and ownership experience of the '70's domestics over what we have today. Competition? Among the Big Four! More reliable now? Yes, although all the electronics stuff can make one cringe, foreign or domestic, as it's so complicated even experts can't figure it out half the time. And today, when one does have problems, it seems like it can be a huge, expensive failure over things that happened 30 or more years ago. Now, we are basically driving appliances with frou-frou features that I could care less about.
I think most people who lived in a town with manufacturing galore into the '70's would say that, overall, life was preferable then to now. People made more money and hence lived better, and so many of our towns and cities didn't have to dry up. We did it to ourselves by our buying preferences.
Bill
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
>"No, the label clearly states that it is made in USA from imported components, but the labor to assemble is still American."
Kudos to NB and others that do what they can to put Americans to work.
Isn't this "Made in America" (Assembled in America) from imported components similar to "made in America" Toyota, Honda, Nissan and so forth?
In the case of the NB shoes, there likely is not an industry in the USA built up around them. Whereas many of the imported car manufacturers are buying many components from American manufacturers. And many of those manufacturers also make parts for GM/F/C vehicles.
Will NB lower the price of their shoes as they are now made outside this country?
Gotta fall back on the experience I had when I decided I wanted a "Levy" denim jacket. It was impossible to find one locally for less than $52. Most places had them in the $60 and one at $70+. More than I was willing to pay. I ended up with a "Wrangler" Jacket from Walmart for $20. Made in Bangladesh. The stitching, pocket placement, buttons, waist tabs,and everything else, seemed exactly like the Levy brand. At an "End of Winter" sale (no returns) a local store had a left over "Levy" jacket in my size for $20. I really wanted that little red "Levy" tag on the pocket. So I bought it. Now I finally had a genuine Levy Jacket like I had when growing up in back in the fifties. Got home and started taking all the store tags off and saw the label "MADE IN CHINA". I would have been extremely distraught if I had paid $60 or $70 for the thing. Point is; They are being made in China, but still trying to get the price like they were made here. I wont likely be buying any more Levy products.
Two years ago I paid prime price for a Carhart winter work coat. Why would I look at the label? It is a Carhart made in the USA. Well I looked this morning ! The label says, "Made in Mexico with Mexican and U.S.A. components". Makes me wonder how much of the components were made here. How many American workers were involved with this product?
Someone above made a very good point. We do have a thriving car industry here. But instead of the badges saying Ford, GM, and Chrysler, they say Honda, Nissan and Toyota. They support American workers and their families, and pay "in most cases" more than the job is actually worth, according to what other manufacturing facilities pay.
This crap of paying everyone the same pay irregardless of the value of that job is nothing more than socialism. When labor cost are high and the product is target to sell for the same as one manufactured at lower labor cost, corners have to be cut somewhere. If the D3 really want to increase sales, they will need to make a superior product, not just one that they claim is "Just as Good".
I agree that in your era and 16 years earlier, in mine, that times seemed better. Graduate HS and go get a job! Few people went to college.
But back then we did not EXPECT what we do now. We were thankful to have a car that was somewhat reliable. And it most likely had hand crank windows, a clutch, and AM radio, no AC, no GPS, no sunroof, no leather unless it was a Cadillac, and 0-60 was in the teens while getting 14-16 mpg on the road. Most of us wouldn't even consider a car like that now. We had one TV set with rabbit ears or roof antenna, and one radio. No AC, and the heat source was either gas space heaters or a furnace that had one big outlet in the floor in the middle of the house. Those that went to college could afford more and rightfully so.
The "accessories" on cars broke a lot. Power window motors stopped working with great regularity. Torque convertors in the Auto Trannies only lasted 40K-50K. And the bands and clutches in the trannies didn't last much longer. Not unusual in heavy traffic to see or experience a car running hot. But it was all we knew so we were happy campers. Some of the English and German imports even had tools in the trunk for repairs.
Then, somewhere along the line, someone decided that a person doing a non skilled job should be paid the same as someone with a college degree. And to do that, the Detroit auto makers had to cut corners somewhere. So they made an unreliable product even more unreliable and that worked fine as long as they were only competing against other "like" companies. Besides the usual mechanical problems, I can tell you from personal experience that Chevrolets and Pontiacs had problems with water getting into the trunk from the wheel wells when driving in heavy rain. The metal around the windshields rusted out due to water leakage. And all we could do to stop it was to slop in a black tar like substance from a can, with a putty knife.
But here came the Japanese imports. And yeah they seemed like small tin cans. Thinner metal, and noisy inside, but they didn't give much trouble. If there were problems in a given area of a particular model, it was not there on the next model. Every year their cars were improved. And we started buying those cheaper more reliable cars. We still buy them and pay more for them than their American counter parts.
Today, right out of school, folks "EXPECT" a big house or apartment, with central everything, cable TV in every room, a car with all the goodies, a second car with all the goodies. And so on. Toyota actually still offers a Corolla with hand crank windows, a clutch and no AC. But they sell very few. Cause we deserve more! :confuse:
This mind set has done away with a lot of jobs, so those that expect the world are living off of those of us that think we should actually earn our way. Those of us that think we should work hard to build a business or at least get better educated.
In my opinion, those that have an entry level mind set and an entry level job, should have an entry level pay scale. And they should pay income taxes like everyone else.
We look at Detroit and think "What a tragedy". But if we really look at the plants the D3 have moved outside the states and moved them back here, how much difference would that make? If we consider domestic and foreign manufacturers, there might still be as many American workers putting together cars and trucks as there ever have been. Maybe even more. They are just scattered more.
I think most people who lived in a town with manufacturing galore into the '70's would say that, overall, life was preferable then to now.
You can say that again! It's certainly preferable to the urban blight, violent crime, the drug trade running rapant, and people being shot and murdered every day! :mad:
Aren't Lucky Brand jeans made in the U.S.? I haven't bought jeans for myself in 20 years, so I wouldn't know
I don't think all of them are anymore. I bought a few pairs last year that were made here, but while I was shopping I found a few styles that were made in Mexico I believe.
I agree that in your era and 16 years earlier, in mine, that times seemed better. Graduate HS and go get a job! Few people went to college.
But back then we did not EXPECT what we do now. We were thankful to have a car that was somewhat reliable. And it most likely had hand crank windows, a clutch, and AM radio, no AC, no GPS, no sunroof, no leather unless it was a Cadillac, and 0-60 was in the teens while getting 14-16 mpg on the road. Most of us wouldn't even consider a car like that now. We had one TV set with rabbit ears or roof antenna, and one radio. No AC, and the heat source was either gas space heaters or a furnace that had one big outlet in the floor in the middle of the house. Those that went to college could afford more and rightfully so.
Heck, that sounds exactly the way it was when I grew up with a few detail changes. Our house was heated with a coal stoker furnace with big cast iron hot water/steam radiators in each room. I was the first of my family to go to college, but I certainly didn't have nor expect a lot after I graduated. I would've considered myself lucky to do even as well as my Dad who only had a high school diploma and a few years in the Navy under his belt.
Today, a kid needs to be a systems analyst with a Master's Degree just to do as well as a circa 1970 factory worker. The only reason I believe I'm doing as well as I am is because I forewent having children. If I tried to do the same thing my Dad did, I'd be living a hand-to-mouth existance on the ragged edge of bankruptcy. My Dad may have just been a blue collar guy, but we could at least go to safe, decent schools, we never went hungry, our house was well-furnished, and we could even go on a modest vacation every summer. Dad was able to buy a new Ford every three years or so and pay cash for it. If I tried to do the same thing as Dad today, my kids would be going to some "gladiator academy" they call a public school, ramen noodles would be a staple of our diet, our decor would be a cross between the thrift shop and Ikea, forget about going anywhere for a vacation, and I'd be trying to keep my 15-20 year-old hooptie alive to see another state inspection.
Yes, my wife will buy nothing else. Thing is they are 100 bucks a pair and go up from there :surprise: She almost bought a pair of jeans in Portland Oregon a couple years back that were not Lucky but they cost 220 bucks a pair! Who the heck pays that much for a pair of jeans?
I just bought a pair of American made New Balance sneakers. $44. SAME PRICE as the Chinese made versions on the shelf next to them. How is this possible???
Please tell me you didn't get the ones with the velcro straps! :P I remember a few years ago, my Granddad talking about some New Balance shoes he had bought, and how the sole cracked side-to-side, right around the ball of the foot. My first thought was GRANDDAD? Buying New Balance?! But then when I found out it was the Velcro strap model it all made sense...old people like those! :P
I had a pair of New Balance 803's once (I think they re-issued them as "83" in later years). Very lightweight, and they did a great job cushioning my foot. But they were uncomfortable as hell while breaking them in! And I remember they did feel kinda narrow. They really didn't hold up all that well, either. And with putting that number on them, it was sort of like putting "1956" on the front of a Buick. Once the new model comes out, it just draws attention to the fact that yours is out of style!
The same kind of person who pays $2,500 for a Prada handbag. I have a co-worker like that. She just leased a new Mercedes C300. Funny she still lives at home with her parents at 28.
I was a little kid in the 70's, but all I know is my kids have it 10x better than my wife and I did growing up. I guess I'm just not as negative as some. I still see lots of opportunities for my daughters if they choose to pursue them. I sure as hell hope they aspire for something higher than factory work, unless of course, they choose to be an engineer, etc.
I saw first hand what happened to Gary, IN over the years. My mom was born and raised in Gary. It was a great city in the 50's and early 60's. It just can't be the factories leaving that killed Gary, as there are several affluent communities that are within 10-20 miles of Gary. Everyone with means just chose to leave. My dad drives through Gary everyday on his way to work
My Grandpa was still working in the steel mill in Gary when he and my grandma finally decided to move in 1977. One of his good friends who owned a gas station not far from their house was murdered during a hold up. They had seen enough and did what most productive citizens did, they left for the surrounding communities.
She almost bought a pair of jeans in Portland Oregon a couple years back that were not Lucky but they cost 220 bucks a pair! Who the heck pays that much for a pair of jeans?
There was this Russian guy from New York who worked with us for about a year...he had some jeans that were like $300 a pair! I forget what brand they were, though. He also had a motorcycle...a Ducati, I think it was? He used to constantly whine about things like the high price of gasoline, the high cost of daycare, etc. I got him one day, when he was on one of his tirades, and said that if he didn't buy $300 jeans, maybe he'd have a little money left over for the gas!
As for daycare, he was under the notion that it was supposed to be free! According to him, it was free in New York, but I don't see how that was possible. All he did was gripe and moan about how much better things were in New York. He got laid off at the end of last year, and I'm guessing he went back there.
>"Who the heck pays that much for a pair of jeans?"
People do! And to add insult to injury they get new ones every year because the design on the pocket or somewhere changed to signify the current fashion.
I buy "Lee" brand jeans cause they wear and fit pretty well. $19-$30 depending on time of year and sales. After 2-3 years when the wear spot appears on the knee area and the cross threads break and spread enough to see bare skin, they become shorts. :shades:
Lots of people spend big money on jeans, particularly women. 7 For All Man Kind, True Religion etc. My sister (before she was married) and all of her friends would think nothing of dropping $150-300 on jeans.
Go to a store like the Buckle, and watch what people are buying. Fashion/apparel is a huge industry.
At the Univ of Arizona it was part of the dress code, starched and creased jeans w/tight-fitting snap western shirts..Cowboy style..never owned any boots..Haven't touched them since the good old play days..It was a party time all the time...It was refreshing after Purdue Univ...
Jeans in Florida is a joke...Too hot, I take the Burberry, Ralph Lauren or Dockers for shorts or slacks...loafers w/o socks..No flip flops...
Back to cars----see where the Govt is investagating the Ford Fusion for "sticky accelarator pedals".. Didn't take the Govt long to start a "witch hunt" on the non-govt owned FoMoCo...No accidents or injuries reported..Go figure!!!!
Buy a Ford and make a liberal unhappy...
The new 2011 Mustang V-6 fitted w/ the performance pkg is limited to 113MPH, Z-rated tires too boot....Must be done to placate the insurance companies keeping premiums low..Ever drive a car that zooms to triple-digits and dies suddenly at 113, scary feeling w/o using the brakes..
Most of the junky Asian cars allow at least 120 even with the unsized tires and fluffy suspension..
No signs of oil slick/tar balls in Venice as yet..
Have a good day---it's hot and muggy here today, tee off at 7:38 am tomorrow and hope to beat real heat, 7200 yds, we usually do it in 3 1/2 hrs..
See where Toyota sales are only up about 7% compared to like period of 2009, however with their troubles mostly behind them except the civil suits they will try hard not to really hurt the Govt-owned.GM and Chrysler entities for fear of future setbacks of any nature until they become govt-friendly with donations..Ask Microsoft and now Apple..
"Did labor go overseas entirely because of high union wages here, or was the appeal of paying sweatshop wages "over there" too much to overcome?"...
Maybe a little of both...there are numerous reasons that cities and towns dried up, depending on the circumstance...the interstate highway system that bypassed lots of towns allowed those towns to die because the main 2-lane road that we were formerly forced to drive was no longer the main route, a 70-mph highway was the main route, and I am grateful for that...I would NEVER want to go back to the days before the Interstate, as if I have a 300 mile drive, I sure do NOT want to take 10 hours at 30 mph, more like 4 hours at 75 mph...the local road is still there, so if you want to take the slow scenic route, you can, but not me...
Walmart did its share by killing off Mom & Pop stores, but, as I have written before, Mom & Pop have been raping us for years and Walmart simply sells the same stuff cheaper...just because Mom & Pop make their living that way is no reason for me to pay 10% over MSRP to buy something that Walmart sells for half the price...I still believe that Walmart has created more disposable income in people's wallets to buy other things from other merchants than any other company in the world...go ahead and scream about Chinese products, but they also sell Tide, Proctor & Gamble products, Goodyear tires, and other stuff made in America...
Folks moved to the cities for the jobs there, but other elements result in higher crime, so either we have a mass migration to the city for the jobs or the mass migration back to the country for the peace and quiet, take your pick...
I still think that rising union wages for VERY unskilled labor is what sent the companies looking elsewhere...that is WHY they could take it elsewhere to people who could not read or write...the skills required were SO minimal (like UAW-type work) that child labor could do it with a little instruction...
"........and as soon as you say "union" and "unskilled labor" the obvious conclusion is that they priced themselves out of the market by demanding skilled labor wage rates for unskilled labor..."
Bob, what you say is true, except for one thing. The union garment jobs began leaving up north in the '50's. Traditional textile cities like Fall River and Lawrence, Mass. or Pawtucket, RI have been struggling for that long. Garment jobs up here have been non existant for about 25-30 years. What is appalling is that these jobs have been leaving the non union south for these countries!!! People who make a more reasonable wage are losing these jobs to people who make pennies.
"........so the fact that you have found them is good, but still not as convenient as going to the store and trying them on..."
True, but how often do you try on a t-shirt or a pair of jeans at a store? Generally, I save that for the dress pants, shirts and suits. I just know that a XL tee or 36/29 jeans and an 8-1/2 wide pair of shoes fit with very little agrivation.
This company will pay for shipping to and from for returns if there is a mfr. defect or an incorrect order;
What you describe in clothing has happened in all sorts of manufacturing.
We certainly had the Botany Mills in Passaic, NJ, but in the towns I grew up in we had a hard rubber mill. They made Ace combs, bowling balls, batter casings and such. Moved down south for the cheaper labor and then moved the manufacturing to Taiwan for even cheaper labor. Now the entire business is based in Asia.
We were up in New Hampshire last weekend and passed through Lawrence on the way up. Amazing to see how much manufacturing used to be done there.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
I might add that I was not from a big city nor a suburban area. I was from a small NW PA town that had much heavy industry considering its population was never even 10K in my lifetime. But the biggest industry left with NAFTA, after 80 years in our town. I love my old hometown, but there is sadness as well when I visit. I went to college and some would say I have a 'tech' job, but I sure think we have given up a helluva lot in the last 30 years. Not all change is for the better (despite what Human Resources departments would have us believe!).
Bill
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
I think most people who lived in a town with manufacturing galore into the '70's would say that, overall, life was preferable then to now. People made more money and hence lived better, and so many of our towns and cities didn't have to dry up. We did it to ourselves by our buying preferences.
I would argue we did it to ourselves not with our buying preferences, but with our manufacturing of stuff no one wants with terrible quality and high prices. If we'd of simply manufactured relevant product that people wanted, then the buying preferences would follow.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
In "our" era, I think it was the VW Bug that ran and ran, and put the domestics (and a Volvo I got stuck with for a while) to shame.
After a few Bugs I switched to a couple of Datsuns. A decent Jeep and Voyager snuck in there too.
And velcro on shoes? I was using cordlocks on my laces (including my dress shoes) 20 years ago. Now they come with (although I no longer own any dress shoes).
In "our" era, I think it was the VW Bug that ran and ran, and put the domestics (and a Volvo I got stuck with for a while) to shame.
I sold my Bug (bought used with 63K miles) after I owned it for 18 years. It had 235K on it when I got rid of it. Still no rust at that point, unlike my friend's new '74 Vega after 2 years.
Comments
And that certainly isn't GM which always over-prices and oozes incentives to entice the buy.
Regards,
OW
Living within our means? Now THAT is an issue that dragged us down big time this recession. When we want it, we want it NOW, and not later. We have to break that.
As far as GM, I don't think they "over price" in the sense that they purposely look for top dollar. They do price competitively within the class, but the incentives come from not having used the best materials, or allowing a vehicle to linger unchanged for far too long. They got away with that for a long time because the trucks were selling w/o incentives, and they made the big bucks for GM. They basically ignored their cars for almost 20 years while they concentrated on trucks.
My Lacrosse sells for just a $1000 conquest or loyalty rebate, and that hasn't changed in the almost 10 months the car has been out. That is FAR below the industry average, which proves that when they get it right, they are no different than any other car mfr. in the marketplace.
Regards,
OW
What I don't get is how people like Wagoner, the Board, and yes even Lutz can be so handsomely rewarded for obviously having no strategic plan for the day when trucks and SUV sales tanked if the economy went down or fuel prices spiked up. We all knew that was a real possibility, right? :mad:
The old GM started the 100K with the 2007 Model yr realizing they were headed down the "Tube", and with the Govt takeover it was extended because our Govt can hide additional costs since we the taxpayers are supporting GM..Once the IPO is complete, then the new shareholders get the "haircut"..
On my short drive to the beach yesterday I noticed on several Hyundias rear bumpers or windows, political stickers, anyone want to guess which party seem to be their favorite???? Here I thought that party was strong on union support and these people are buying cars assembled in the USA by non-union workers..
"New Balance" is the my shoe, also, and it will continue to be, for our retail stores are loaded with off-wall merchandise from every country but the USA..
Congratulations on your Buick!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can remember working with Buick purchasing and engineering back in 70's when it was a major player in Flint, Mich.., was running a supplier plant 30 miles away, producing springs, wireforms, and stampings..Flint is a "Ghost Town", worse than Detroit if that is possible, both would qualify for Cuba comparison..
Since you turned this political..., how does the extended warranty costs not happen now when the "government" is owning GM (really just have some of the stock) and all happen when the IPO is complete, the government (you) has turned a profit and then the costs are all on the shareholders at a loss?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Considering that the Detroit 3 were loosing money when cars were selling really good! How did GM pay back the loan with interest, during this slow economy? Have the LaCrosse and Malibu sales been that good?
Is GM's 100K drivetrain warranty simply another entitlement? This time to the customer? Something that will be dealt with at a future time, like the UAW retirement and health plans. OR have they actually developed a drive train that will last 100K, so no future expenditures will be necessary?
Opinions?
Kip
In the OLD days you had to take the vehicle in often for little things going wrong but that doesn't seem to happen anymore. I have only had really 2 lemons and they were the VW Rabbit and a Chev Vega... Consumer Report liked them both. HUMMMM? I think that's why I don't take or read Consumer Report even today.
An All-American Store
You would think that the UAW, watching layoffs and plant closings over the years, would wake up and see that something had to change, but they REFUSED to see it, or they saw it and IGNORED it...like it or not, these people do NOT deserve our business...remember, we did not lose the auto industry, we lost BIG 3 automaking capacity...all of those transplants have Americans making their cars, just non-union workers...we now have numerous plants from Toy, Honda, Nissan, Mercedes, BMW, Hyundai, to name a few...the auto industry here in USA is not dead, just the Big 3 companies that started here...
No one stops to realize this: we lost Packard, Duesenberg, Studebaker, Nash, American Motors, Desoto, Edsel, and numerous brands over the last 50-plus years...losing GM/F/C is just a continuation of the same train, except that now it seems to matter, back then it didn't...
The ONLY reason,. and I mean only, that Big 3 cars are as good as they are today is because of imports...NO OTHER REASON...they had zero motivation to improve on their own, but competetive quality of the imports is why we have better cars today...
If Honda and Toy had not come here in the 80s, Big 3 junk would be no better than the "boat anchor trash" that they sold us in the 1970s...
I'd argue that it is UNPATRIOTIC to buy American products if they are not the best, because you are supporting mediocrity, and the job savings will be short-term. If you really want a strong US, you buy the best and that pushes our industries to be competitive. We want our products to be so strong that even those overseas want them and buy them. That's not going to happen if we support junk. We want to kill junk, and kill junky companies.
Take the alternative - let's say GM had NOT been bailed out. There would have been more jobs lost and more disruption for a longer time. But then those people with expertise and the remnants of the company that were valuable would have started new ventures. Today Caddy might be a small company with a group of entrepreneurs who were lean and mean. Today we still have Caddy rebadging Chevy vehicles. We look at what was saved -- but I say what have we lost by not allowing the markets to take their course? We will never know, and it could have been great.
That is what I mean...one should not Buy American if the quality is junk, simply because our neighbor makes it...if the market had been left alone, GM would have been disassembled and its best pieces would have been sold off to real entrepreneurs who would make real cars...and the UAW would be just a memory...oh, I can fantasize, can't I?????...
Any questions?
Regards,
OW
Nope, because it's not true. As of March 2010, the US owed China $895 Billion dollars. That's hardly owning us. I'm far more concerned about what the government will owe me and may not come through, like Social Security and Medicare.
Yes we buy stuff from China and many other countries, but we also sell stuff around the world too. It's called trade. If you want to see a full blown depression, stop trading with other countries. BTW, over 1/2 our trade deficit is due to importing oil.
Our debt problems have little to do with buying from China or other cheap labor countries. Everything could be made here and we would still have budget deficits. The national debt has been growing for the past 100 years. We weren't buying much from China or Japan 50 years ago, yet we were still running deficits.
I guarantee if everything we bought was made in the USA, even more people would be out of a job. Buying from other countries allows them to buy from us. Through comparative advantage, we can build, create, and service what we are most efficient at, and sell the surplus abroad. We buy from other countries that can make certain products more efficiently than we can. That means we will run trade surpluses with some countries and trade deficits with others.
I'd much rather buy textiles from abroad and lose $10-15/hr jobs and help Caterpillar grow by selling their products all over the world while paying $20-30+/hr labor.
Everyone agrees with you in principle...but one should not be expected to buy a GM/F/C car if the car is inferior in quality and workmanship...they CAN do better, in fact, they DO do better, because it is American workers making Hondas and Toyotas, but the big factor is that they are non-unionized, so they can lose their jobs by screwing up, UAW folks do not...
Maybe you have extra money lying around to blow it on a UAW junk car, but most of us need to find the best value for our money, and that value may be an import...
Now, on smaller products, like kitchen appliances, sneakers, etc where the cost of an American product is a few dollars more, I say Buy American, but even that has to be comparable quality...we spoke earlier of buying American shirts at $40-50 due to unskilled unionized garment workers at $25/Hour or import shirts for $15 and the workers make $2/hour...it SOUNDS nice to say Buy American, but most of us will only afford 1-2 shirts, whereas we can buy 5 shirts at WalMart...
Like it or not, the jobs went overseas simply because unions demanded wages far in excess of what the unskilled jobs are worth, no different than paying UAW janitors $35/hour plus benefits to sweep a floor that could be done by a college student working part-time for $5/hour, as the job is not even worth minimum wage...honest work???...yes, but that does not make it worth any more than $5/hour...
What facts can you show to back up this claim??? Here are Carhartt Jeans:
http://www.unionlabel.com/carhartt-carpenter-jeans.html
$30
Carpenter's boots, $125:
http://theunionbootpro.com/products/dsp_productDetail.cfm?pSKU=154&w=
I just bought a pair of American made New Balance sneakers. $44. SAME PRICE as the Chinese made versions on the shelf next to them. How is this possible???
Shoes and other products are the same way. Many things determine the price of an item other than the labor costs. For something like a name brand name shoe, the labor is probably the smallest unit cost. Engineering/design, sales, Marketing and distribution may have more of an impact on the cost of a product than labor alone.
http://www.allamericanclothing.com
Tee's, $8. Long sleeve T's are $11. $30 for denim long sleeve shirts. $40 for Jeans. I'm wearing them right now and they are comfortable. They do have a discount rack with 50% off for clearance merchandise.
You CAN find American made clothing at reasonable prices.
Also, it is good you have found sites that sell American goods...but it would be quite difficult to do that without this fantastic internet we are on...when many of those unskilled jobs left and the plants were closed (70s, 80s, 90s, when???) most of us did not have the internet to find these all-american stores...so the fact that you have found them is good, but still not as convenient as going to the store and trying them on...I do not fault you, but if the net did not exist, finding these companies might be nearly impossible...
I am 52 years old. I'd take the buying and ownership experience of the '70's domestics over what we have today. Competition? Among the Big Four! More reliable now? Yes, although all the electronics stuff can make one cringe, foreign or domestic, as it's so complicated even experts can't figure it out half the time. And today, when one does have problems, it seems like it can be a huge, expensive failure over things that happened 30 or more years ago. Now, we are basically driving appliances with frou-frou features that I could care less about.
I think most people who lived in a town with manufacturing galore into the '70's would say that, overall, life was preferable then to now. People made more money and hence lived better, and so many of our towns and cities didn't have to dry up. We did it to ourselves by our buying preferences.
Bill
Kudos to NB and others that do what they can to put Americans to work.
Isn't this "Made in America" (Assembled in America) from imported components similar to "made in America" Toyota, Honda, Nissan and so forth?
In the case of the NB shoes, there likely is not an industry in the USA built up around them. Whereas many of the imported car manufacturers are buying many components from American manufacturers. And many of those manufacturers also make parts for GM/F/C vehicles.
Will NB lower the price of their shoes as they are now made outside this country?
Gotta fall back on the experience I had when I decided I wanted a "Levy" denim jacket. It was impossible to find one locally for less than $52. Most places had them in the $60 and one at $70+. More than I was willing to pay. I ended up with a "Wrangler" Jacket from Walmart for $20. Made in Bangladesh. The stitching, pocket placement, buttons, waist tabs,and everything else, seemed exactly like the Levy brand. At an "End of Winter" sale (no returns) a local store had a left over "Levy" jacket in my size for $20. I really wanted that little red "Levy" tag on the pocket. So I bought it. Now I finally had a genuine Levy Jacket like I had when growing up in back in the fifties. Got home and started taking all the store tags off and saw the label "MADE IN CHINA". I would have been extremely distraught if I had paid $60 or $70 for the thing. Point is; They are being made in China, but still trying to get the price like they were made here. I wont likely be buying any more Levy products.
Two years ago I paid prime price for a Carhart winter work coat. Why would I look at the label? It is a Carhart made in the USA. Well I looked this morning ! The label says, "Made in Mexico with Mexican and U.S.A. components". Makes me wonder how much of the components were made here. How many American workers were involved with this product?
Someone above made a very good point. We do have a thriving car industry here. But instead of the badges saying Ford, GM, and Chrysler, they say Honda, Nissan and Toyota. They support American workers and their families, and pay "in most cases" more than the job is actually worth, according to what other manufacturing facilities pay.
This crap of paying everyone the same pay irregardless of the value of that job is nothing more than socialism. When labor cost are high and the product is target to sell for the same as one manufactured at lower labor cost, corners have to be cut somewhere. If the D3 really want to increase sales, they will need to make a superior product, not just one that they claim is "Just as Good".
Kip
Graduate HS and go get a job! Few people went to college.
But back then we did not EXPECT what we do now. We were thankful to have a car that was somewhat reliable. And it most likely had hand crank windows, a clutch, and AM radio, no AC, no GPS, no sunroof, no leather unless it was a Cadillac, and 0-60 was in the teens while getting 14-16 mpg on the road. Most of us wouldn't even consider a car like that now. We had one TV set with rabbit ears or roof antenna, and one radio. No AC, and the heat source was either gas space heaters or a furnace that had one big outlet in the floor in the middle of the house. Those that went to college could afford more and rightfully so.
The "accessories" on cars broke a lot. Power window motors stopped working with great regularity. Torque convertors in the Auto Trannies only lasted 40K-50K. And the bands and clutches in the trannies didn't last much longer. Not unusual in heavy traffic to see or experience a car running hot. But it was all we knew so we were happy campers. Some of the English and German imports even had tools in the trunk for repairs.
Then, somewhere along the line, someone decided that a person doing a non skilled job should be paid the same as someone with a college degree. And to do that, the Detroit auto makers had to cut corners somewhere. So they made an unreliable product even more unreliable and that worked fine as long as they were only competing against other "like" companies. Besides the usual mechanical problems, I can tell you from personal experience that Chevrolets and Pontiacs had problems with water getting into the trunk from the wheel wells when driving in heavy rain. The metal around the windshields rusted out due to water leakage. And all we could do to stop it was to slop in a black tar like substance from a can, with a putty knife.
But here came the Japanese imports. And yeah they seemed like small tin cans. Thinner metal, and noisy inside, but they didn't give much trouble. If there were problems in a given area of a particular model, it was not there on the next model.
Every year their cars were improved. And we started buying those cheaper more reliable cars. We still buy them and pay more for them than their American counter parts.
Today, right out of school, folks "EXPECT" a big house or apartment, with central everything, cable TV in every room, a car with all the goodies, a second car with all the goodies. And so on. Toyota actually still offers a Corolla with hand crank windows, a clutch and no AC. But they sell very few. Cause we deserve more! :confuse:
This mind set has done away with a lot of jobs, so those that expect the world are living off of those of us that think we should actually earn our way. Those of us that think we should work hard to build a business or at least get better educated.
In my opinion, those that have an entry level mind set and an entry level job, should have an entry level pay scale. And they should pay income taxes like everyone else.
We look at Detroit and think "What a tragedy". But if we really look at the plants the D3 have moved outside the states and moved them back here, how much difference would that make? If we consider domestic and foreign manufacturers, there might still be as many American workers putting together cars and trucks as there ever have been. Maybe even more. They are just scattered more.
Rant over! :sick:
Kip
You can say that again! It's certainly preferable to the urban blight, violent crime, the drug trade running rapant, and people being shot and murdered every day! :mad:
I don't think all of them are anymore. I bought a few pairs last year that were made here, but while I was shopping I found a few styles that were made in Mexico I believe.
Graduate HS and go get a job! Few people went to college.
But back then we did not EXPECT what we do now. We were thankful to have a car that was somewhat reliable. And it most likely had hand crank windows, a clutch, and AM radio, no AC, no GPS, no sunroof, no leather unless it was a Cadillac, and 0-60 was in the teens while getting 14-16 mpg on the road. Most of us wouldn't even consider a car like that now. We had one TV set with rabbit ears or roof antenna, and one radio. No AC, and the heat source was either gas space heaters or a furnace that had one big outlet in the floor in the middle of the house. Those that went to college could afford more and rightfully so.
Heck, that sounds exactly the way it was when I grew up with a few detail changes. Our house was heated with a coal stoker furnace with big cast iron hot water/steam radiators in each room. I was the first of my family to go to college, but I certainly didn't have nor expect a lot after I graduated. I would've considered myself lucky to do even as well as my Dad who only had a high school diploma and a few years in the Navy under his belt.
Today, a kid needs to be a systems analyst with a Master's Degree just to do as well as a circa 1970 factory worker. The only reason I believe I'm doing as well as I am is because I forewent having children. If I tried to do the same thing my Dad did, I'd be living a hand-to-mouth existance on the ragged edge of bankruptcy. My Dad may have just been a blue collar guy, but we could at least go to safe, decent schools, we never went hungry, our house was well-furnished, and we could even go on a modest vacation every summer. Dad was able to buy a new Ford every three years or so and pay cash for it. If I tried to do the same thing as Dad today, my kids would be going to some "gladiator academy" they call a public school, ramen noodles would be a staple of our diet, our decor would be a cross between the thrift shop and Ikea, forget about going anywhere for a vacation, and I'd be trying to keep my 15-20 year-old hooptie alive to see another state inspection.
Please tell me you didn't get the ones with the velcro straps! :P I remember a few years ago, my Granddad talking about some New Balance shoes he had bought, and how the sole cracked side-to-side, right around the ball of the foot. My first thought was GRANDDAD? Buying New Balance?! But then when I found out it was the Velcro strap model it all made sense...old people like those! :P
I had a pair of New Balance 803's once (I think they re-issued them as "83" in later years). Very lightweight, and they did a great job cushioning my foot. But they were uncomfortable as hell while breaking them in! And I remember they did feel kinda narrow. They really didn't hold up all that well, either. And with putting that number on them, it was sort of like putting "1956" on the front of a Buick. Once the new model comes out, it just draws attention to the fact that yours is out of style!
I saw first hand what happened to Gary, IN over the years. My mom was born and raised in Gary. It was a great city in the 50's and early 60's. It just can't be the factories leaving that killed Gary, as there are several affluent communities that are within 10-20 miles of Gary. Everyone with means just chose to leave. My dad drives through Gary everyday on his way to work
My Grandpa was still working in the steel mill in Gary when he and my grandma finally decided to move in 1977. One of his good friends who owned a gas station not far from their house was murdered during a hold up. They had seen enough and did what most productive citizens did, they left for the surrounding communities.
There was this Russian guy from New York who worked with us for about a year...he had some jeans that were like $300 a pair! I forget what brand they were, though. He also had a motorcycle...a Ducati, I think it was? He used to constantly whine about things like the high price of gasoline, the high cost of daycare, etc. I got him one day, when he was on one of his tirades, and said that if he didn't buy $300 jeans, maybe he'd have a little money left over for the gas!
As for daycare, he was under the notion that it was supposed to be free! According to him, it was free in New York, but I don't see how that was possible. All he did was gripe and moan about how much better things were in New York. He got laid off at the end of last year, and I'm guessing he went back there.
People do! And to add insult to injury they get new ones every year because the design on the pocket or somewhere changed to signify the current fashion.
I buy "Lee" brand jeans cause they wear and fit pretty well. $19-$30 depending on time of year and sales. After 2-3 years when the wear spot appears on the knee area and the cross threads break and spread enough to see bare skin, they become shorts. :shades:
Kip
Go to a store like the Buckle, and watch what people are buying. Fashion/apparel is a huge industry.
Jeans in Florida is a joke...Too hot, I take the Burberry, Ralph Lauren or Dockers for shorts or slacks...loafers w/o socks..No flip flops...
Back to cars----see where the Govt is investagating the Ford Fusion for "sticky accelarator pedals".. Didn't take the Govt long to start a "witch hunt" on the non-govt owned FoMoCo...No accidents or injuries reported..Go figure!!!!
Buy a Ford and make a liberal unhappy...
The new 2011 Mustang V-6 fitted w/ the performance pkg is limited to 113MPH, Z-rated tires too boot....Must be done to placate the insurance companies keeping premiums low..Ever drive a car that zooms to triple-digits and dies suddenly at 113, scary feeling w/o using the brakes..
Most of the junky Asian cars allow at least 120 even with the unsized tires and fluffy suspension..
No signs of oil slick/tar balls in Venice as yet..
Have a good day---it's hot and muggy here today, tee off at 7:38 am tomorrow and hope to beat real heat, 7200 yds, we usually do it in 3 1/2 hrs..
See where Toyota sales are only up about 7% compared to like period of 2009, however with their troubles mostly behind them except the civil suits they will try hard not to really hurt the Govt-owned.GM and Chrysler entities for fear of future setbacks of any nature until they become govt-friendly with donations..Ask Microsoft and now Apple..
Maybe a little of both...there are numerous reasons that cities and towns dried up, depending on the circumstance...the interstate highway system that bypassed lots of towns allowed those towns to die because the main 2-lane road that we were formerly forced to drive was no longer the main route, a 70-mph highway was the main route, and I am grateful for that...I would NEVER want to go back to the days before the Interstate, as if I have a 300 mile drive, I sure do NOT want to take 10 hours at 30 mph, more like 4 hours at 75 mph...the local road is still there, so if you want to take the slow scenic route, you can, but not me...
Walmart did its share by killing off Mom & Pop stores, but, as I have written before, Mom & Pop have been raping us for years and Walmart simply sells the same stuff cheaper...just because Mom & Pop make their living that way is no reason for me to pay 10% over MSRP to buy something that Walmart sells for half the price...I still believe that Walmart has created more disposable income in people's wallets to buy other things from other merchants than any other company in the world...go ahead and scream about Chinese products, but they also sell Tide, Proctor & Gamble products, Goodyear tires, and other stuff made in America...
Folks moved to the cities for the jobs there, but other elements result in higher crime, so either we have a mass migration to the city for the jobs or the mass migration back to the country for the peace and quiet, take your pick...
I still think that rising union wages for VERY unskilled labor is what sent the companies looking elsewhere...that is WHY they could take it elsewhere to people who could not read or write...the skills required were SO minimal (like UAW-type work) that child labor could do it with a little instruction...
Merely my pontifications...
Bob, what you say is true, except for one thing. The union garment jobs began leaving up north in the '50's. Traditional textile cities like Fall River and Lawrence, Mass. or Pawtucket, RI have been struggling for that long. Garment jobs up here have been non existant for about 25-30 years. What is appalling is that these jobs have been leaving the non union south for these countries!!! People who make a more reasonable wage are losing these jobs to people who make pennies.
"........so the fact that you have found them is good, but still not as convenient as going to the store and trying them on..."
True, but how often do you try on a t-shirt or a pair of jeans at a store? Generally, I save that for the dress pants, shirts and suits. I just know that a XL tee or 36/29 jeans and an 8-1/2 wide pair of shoes fit with very little agrivation.
This company will pay for shipping to and from for returns if there is a mfr. defect or an incorrect order;
http://www.allamericanclothing.com/orderinfo.html#returns
We certainly had the Botany Mills in Passaic, NJ, but in the towns I grew up in we had a hard rubber mill. They made Ace combs, bowling balls, batter casings and such. Moved down south for the cheaper labor and then moved the manufacturing to Taiwan for even cheaper labor. Now the entire business is based in Asia.
We were up in New Hampshire last weekend and passed through Lawrence on the way up. Amazing to see how much manufacturing used to be done there.
Bill
I would argue we did it to ourselves not with our buying preferences, but with our manufacturing of stuff no one wants with terrible quality and high prices. If we'd of simply manufactured relevant product that people wanted, then the buying preferences would follow.
Some one who wouldn't be caught dead shopping at a Caddy dealer!
Regards,
OW
In "our" era, I think it was the VW Bug that ran and ran, and put the domestics (and a Volvo I got stuck with for a while) to shame.
After a few Bugs I switched to a couple of Datsuns. A decent Jeep and Voyager snuck in there too.
And velcro on shoes? I was using cordlocks on my laces (including my dress shoes) 20 years ago. Now they come with (although I no longer own any dress shoes).
I sold my Bug (bought used with 63K miles) after I owned it for 18 years. It had 235K on it when I got rid of it. Still no rust at that point, unlike my friend's new '74 Vega after 2 years.