What's wrong with either? Have you owned a Cadillac SRX or a Chevy Avalanche? I wouldn't have either myself because cross-overs and trucks aren't my thing, but if I did go for either, I'd have no problem with the SRX and I'd probably get a Silverado instead of an Avalanche. I have, however, owned five Cadillacs and would most definitely go for a sixth. I have yet to experience any trouble with my 2007 Cadillac DTS Performance. I just took it on a long trip this weekend without incident.
I would prefer a Philadelphia-built BMW or a Trenton-built Benz. I'd have infinitely more respect for these foreign manufacturers if they located their plants in or near the inner city. Why do they locate their plants in remote areas like Alabama or S Carolina? Because the workforce has nowhere else to go! That way they could mistreat and underpay the workforce as much as they can as the workers have no recourse. What are their alternatives - get a crappy minimum wage job at the truck stop, convenience mart, or Wal~Mart? The more enterprising people might be farmers.
Of course those southern Benzes and Bimmers are the worst products in either company's lineup. I had a business associate who bought a new M-Class when they first came out and it was a complete and utter POS!
Well, the longevity king here is andre1969 with his 1957 DeSoto Firedome hardtop! Nobody can argue that Mopar is pretty awesome with that kind of record.
"We need to find SOMEONE who favors GM over the Asian brands...ANYONE OUT THERE? (Besides Lemko). Actually, Lemon Company would be a great name to replace General Motors...Lem Ko for short!"
We need to be sure that lemko lives at least 50 years, so that SOMEONE will be alive that remembers GM and actually can say they like them... :shades:
>so that SOMEONE will be alive that remembers GM and actually can say they like them...
I've had many great cars from GM. I've fewer troubles and cost than if I were to have gone with the popular with the blind masses Honda and toyotas/lexus/scion.
Some of the trolling on here is done just to hope to keep a negative image of GM going. IF they put their trouble and effort into trolling about the problems of toyota-lexus/scion and Honda, they would effect more change in getting something done to fix the perpetual problems those brands have. Have a new compressor for your CR-V, every summer? Transmission problems for your Honda, anyone? For you Odyssey? A company mute on fixing problems with your toyota-lexus-scion? Sneaking in fixes for sludge and runaway acceleration? Trying to avoid government reporting?
My GMs are serving me just fine: I have three at the moment.
Perhaps if we knew either the amount/percent of money returned to the parent country it would be easier. That's always been my argument is that the $$$profit is returned to either Korea or Japan and not Detroit to help build the infrastructure of the country.
The union folks have just plain ruined our country. Just remember what happened to Eastern Airlines and the mechanics union. They struck for more $$$ of course and this big air carrier went bankrupt. It departure closed down the entire C concourse of the Atlanta Airport. That concourse stayed unoccupied for years and years.
Than allow me to sound like lemko, except directed to Honda...I have had 4 Hondas since 1985, and each one was better than the previous one...the last 2, a 1988 Prelude 4WS, and 1988 Acura Legend were the best 2 cars I have ever owned...
Errrr, that was a long time ago: 1988. It was about 2003 with the Accord when lots of failures and problems started showing up in the forums here. I pointed out regression to the mean was starting, and I feel it has come to fruition. Fellow across the road has what is perhaps a 2007 Acura RL version of the Accord with Super handling, etc. It needed EGR repair for $1200 about a year ago. I've never had pollution equipment fail on a GM.
So basically you rely on internet forums to form your opinion rather than actual ownership.
I've never owned a Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bentley, Rolls, Nissan, Toyota, Chrysler, ect. and I've read about problems with all of them. Must all be pieces of garbage because the internet told me so :sick:
I've only owned 4 cars since '82 so I rely on internet forums (and lots of other net advice) to help me form opinions about cars. My personal brand experience, even with the odd rental car thrown in, is pretty limited.
For example, if I was in the market for a used CR-V, since the AC compressors are prone to failure, I'd want a mechanic to pay close attention to that during the pre-purchase checkup. There's a long running forum here just about that issue, not simply an occasional one-off post.
Perhaps if we knew either the amount/percent of money returned to the parent country it would be easier. That's always been my argument is that the $$$profit is returned to either Korea or Japan and not Detroit to help build the infrastructure of the country.
For this question, lets say 100%.
The total profit for the Aveo goes to the USA (GM), but the Hyundai profit goes to Korea.
Of course, no USA wages were paid and no taxes were collected from the workers building the Aveo, while they were on the Hyundai. And, the effect of having a manufacturing plant in the USA has to count for something.
This isn;t a question that I have a good answer for, and so far, no one has been able to satisfactorily provide one. Yes, you will get many opinions, but I have yet to see the true $$$ effect between the two.
Living in upstate SC, I have seen the local benefits (statewide) from the BMW plant located here. But, does the local benefit translate into a national benefit?
Does funding the Big-3 with taxpayer $$$ help Detriot? How about nationally? Is it a benefit to the USA (after all things are considered), or does one section of the country benefit to the detriment of the rest of the country?
I've had many great cars from GM. I've fewer troubles and cost than if I were to have gone with the popular with the blind masses Honda and toyotas/lexus/scion.
Some of the trolling on here...
So how do you KNOW you would have had more troubles and cost with the foreign makes you listed. Isn't that the trolling you speak about? :confuse: :P :shades:
The union folks have just plain ruined our country. Just remember what happened to Eastern Airlines and the mechanics union. They struck for more $$$ of course and this big air carrier went bankrupt. It departure closed down the entire C concourse of the Atlanta Airport. That concourse stayed unoccupied for years and years.
and many of us have had plenty of japanese, german, or other foreign automakers with either no problems, or much less problems then any GM or Chrysler products in over 20-30 years of ownership.
Some of the trolling on here is done just to hope to keep a negative image of Toyota and the other foreign automakers going
This is what I love, you make this ridiculous excuse for GM that we all had problems with GM product 15, 20, 25 years ago but that is not the case!
I had terrible problems with my 2002 and 2004 Chevy products and the last time I checked that was not 20 years ago :P
I have two family members that had a 2006 Buick and a 2007 GMC who had to sell them because of how often they made their way to the dealerships for repairs even before the warranties expired!
again this is not 20 years ago :P
There are a couple people on the 2010 LaCrosse forums having electrical and gremlin problems with their brand new LaCrosse's so this idea that all these GM problems with GM happened over 20 years ago is BS! and before you use the, "oh, that is only 2-3 people excuse" that kind of stuff should not be happening on any new cars at this point in automotive production with all our big fancy technology, and supposed, improved GM quality, reliability (remains to be seen),etc
I guess my point was that the 70s and 80s were the absolute worst for Big 3 quality at the junk level (except lemko, of course) and when I sat in the Hondas they were just well-built, ergonomic (that jumped out as soon as I sat in the seat) and solid as a rock...that contrasted dramatically with my 82 T-Bird and 83 Grand Marquis...to this day, nothing from Big 3 has been as well designed as my Legend, and that includes my 2004 Crown Vic and 2004 Ram truck...now, I can certainly say that my 2004 Big 3s are better built than they were in the 80s, but I attribute that to the quality of the imports that was far superior (by the mid-80s, not before) not to any inherent desire for quality from the UAW and their ilk...
And I have not been in a Honda since I gave mine away in 2001, so I do not know how they are now, altho I have read the VCM problem on Honda V6s from 2009...
>altho I have read the VCM problem on Honda V6s from 2009...
I think things have changed since 1988.
The seats in the standard Accord and Civic are oddly thin feeling. They feel like you'd get a pain from the crossbraces after a few hours driving. Now if you upgrade to my neighbor's $55-60,000 Acura RL, you probably get better seats.
Compared to spending 7 hours in my leSabre, 2003, from Smyrna, Tennessee, to home on Sunday and arriving home refreshed without back discomfort other than the pain of the heat outside and the stupid drivers, who were in a minority early on Sunday, I'll take my leSabres--both of them over the Accord and Camry I've sat in.
Some of the trolling on here is done just to hope to keep a negative image of Toyota and the other foreign automakers going. MOST of the trolling on here is done just to hope to keep a negative image of GM and the other domestic automakers going.
ALL of the trolling on here is done just to hope to keep a negative image of Toyota and the other foreign automakers going. Most of the trolling on here is done just to hope to keep a negative image of GM and the other domestic automakers going!
sorry lemko, buts it not a one way street with the foreign trashing vs domestic trashing! you and others do a terrible amount of that on the Toyota and other foreign discussions while others do the same stuff about GM on here!
Personally, I have heard very few people trash Ford. Ford is exactly doing a tremendously great job with their products with out the need for taking our money like GM and Chrysler do and I have even thought of cross shopping Ford the next time around myself. So if people on here like Ford, you can't say we all have problems and hate domestic automakers
They must be very young people to NOT trash Ford! For years, Ford was almost synonymous with poor reliability. My Dad was a Ford man and he was always fixing something or paying to have something on one of his cars fixed. My Grandpop always had Chevrolet cars and I never remember him having to repair one or complain about it. My first two cars were Buicks and I never had remotely as much trouble with them as my Dad did with his Ford vehicles.
>They must be very young people to NOT trash Ford!
I'll talk.
Fords were famous for not being as good as GM products in the "old days."
I swore I'd never own another ford in 1977 after a timing chain was bad at 75,000 miles. Then I won a Mustang Pace Car so I had to change it to "I'd never buy another Ford." I don't go around trolling about my thoughts on Fords. But they were marginal on the two Mustangs that I did buy in my youth. I recognized later the average Ford in my area didn't get the maintenance that the GM vehicles got from their owners due to a difference in the owners that were stereotypical of each group of cars.
Actually, your right about Ford during the old days. Their products used to worse then GM but how that has completely gone 360 the last several years. The Ford Fusion, as one example, has been ranked with almost perfect reliability by CR and others and has seen a level of quality improvement on level with some foreign competitors.
While several GM products, still have so-so reliability and some questionable cheap materials in certain places, though I have always admitted, the quality in GM products sine 2008 have improved a lot compared to pre-2008. I give GM credit when credit is due, unlike some others, but to think that in just a one year time frame since declaring bankruptcy and reorganizing the company that every single problem has been solved and fixed is ludicrous. See, Ford started changing their company and products a around several years before GM and so they are a few years ahead and they have had more time to demonstrate that their long-term reliability has improved and the quality of their products. All of the Ford line-up is recommended by CR for the last two years and justly so.
GM's long term reliability is going to take years to demonstrate that it has improved yet their are GM fanboys on here who think it already has or, in lemko's case, that there was nothing ever wrong since all this Caddy's and Buick's have been perfect! Just remember, GM still has models, like the Impala for instance, that still is a complete piece of crap and rental fodder and until GM finishes their overall on every single product, their quality and reliability is going to be lower as a brand!
What really is a crying shame is how GM farted around with the Camaro for so many years, giving Ford the opportunity to improve the Mustang to the point the Camaro has lost to the Mustang, both V6 and V8 in almost every comparison test I've read to date!
Really? My GM products only reinforce my desire to buy another GM vehicle in the future!
Well, watching my wife's 07 GP age at an alarming rate at only 3 years old & 67k miles tells me GM still is quite capable of producing crap. The interior is falling apart and it squeaks and rattles. My Suburban was the same way, once it hit about 50-60k the interior started to self destruct and it too rattled and squeaked (I won't bring up all the other issues again).
OTOH, my in-laws visited the other day and my MIL's 05 Camry XLS V6 has nearly 120k miles on it and the interior was in impeccable shape. I was shocked at how well the leather has held up on the drivers seat and the overall condition of the switch gear etc. I rode in it and the powertrain refinement between the camry and my wife's GP which has 1/2 the miles and is two years newer is stunning. The GP sounds, feels, and looks like a 20 year old beater in comparison. Not that the Camry is exiting or anything, but it did feel like an extremely well built and engineered vehicle. The polar opposite of most GM products that I've owned or sampled.
That may be an apples and oranges comparison, but the fact is only 2 years ago GM was producing a vehicle as horrific as the GP.
I wouldn't call the current Impala a complete piece of crap. It's still a very reliable vehicle. What I would say is that it is outdated and not nearly as nice as the Malibu which is supposedly the lesser of the two cars. I'm not crazy about the Impala's "older Accord on steroids" or "return of the Lumina" styling.
Well, my wife's 2005 Buick LaCrosse which is probably the car that is driven the most must be stuck in a time warp as it still looks and runs well after five years of being parked outside and driven in the city its whole life.
My 1989 Cadillac Brougham is still like new after 21+ years and 158K miles. Ask anybody who has seen it!
Your inlaws could also be very meticulous about their car. I've seen Mercedes and BMWs look like crap after a few years because their owners were neglectful, careless knuckleheads. There was a late model Mercedes E-Class at the supermarket the other day and it was all dinged-up, scratched, had cracked and broken lenses, and the interior could've qualified as a Superfund site. Heck, give me a Chevy Aveo, (a car I've seen bashed mercilessly on these boards) and it will still look like a new car ten years later.
Which is better for the country... Buying a Hyundai built in GA or a Chevrolet Aveo built in South Korea? Who benefits from each situation?
Here's my take/opinion. What's best for the country is that I, as an individual, make an informed car-buying decision based on quality, value, reputation (carefully researched and not just on discussion forum opinions), and my personal needs for a vehicle. I also would forego symbolism, emotion, and whether my family/neighbor works for a certain auto manufacturer (unless they can get me a substantial discount which would be part of the value factor). Collectively, in my humble opinion, these decisions by millions of people in the marketplace will benefit the country as a whole as weak businesses will be replaced by strong businesses.
Did I follow that process to a "T" when I purchased a new car? Probably not. I let emotion color some of my perception as I avoided "bailout" and strong union companies though I strongly considered a Ford. In the end, that process led me to a 2010 Hyundai Sonata in which I am well pleased. My wife, no car buff but has a simple common sense feel for quality, sat in her sister's new (more expensive) HHR and said the interior felt "cheap" compared to our new Sonata. There's probably some owner's bias there, but still....
OTOH, my in-laws visited the other day and my MIL's 05 Camry XLS V6 has nearly 120k miles on it and the interior was in impeccable shape. I was shocked at how well the leather has held up on the drivers seat and the overall condition of the switch gear etc.
I concur in that my '98 Honda Accord still has a VERY nice interior. I've spent a few more dollars on repairs than I cared to but never any stranded situations and @ 182K, it is still a solid vehicle.
I might have the answer to everyone's problem!! The Aveo will no longer be built in South Korea. The new Aveo will be a little larger.....and will be built in the US. That should make everyone happy!!!
Heck, give me a Chevy Aveo, (a car I've seen bashed mercilessly on these boards) and it will still look like a new car ten years later.
Excellent point, although as a former Aveo hatchback owner (2005 model), I have owned better made cars in my lifetime.
I grew up in the 1960's close to an old couple that owned a 1939 Chevrolet 4-door sedan. They bought it new, and kept it garaged when not in use. While it did have some wear and tear (after all, it was already 25 years old) and the paint was faded, it was in much better shape that probably 75% of cars 5 years old at that time. The widow owned the car when she died (in the mid 1980's), and I tried my best to get her son to sell me that car. Instead, he gave it to his dirt-bag son, who soon demolished it. It was a terrible fate for a car so well preserved. Thinking back on it now, I probably should have stolen it.
Proactive, proper maintenance will extend the life of just about any vehicle, although I have a friend that once owned a Renault that would argue that point with me. And, I admit, that Renault was one real POS!
A lot of car ownership satisfaction is directly related to the owner's expectations. That, and the dealer service provided.
Again, living in the South back in the 60's, almost anyone who owned a VW Beetle avoided going to the VW dealer like the plague, as most of them were seen as crooks.
Frankly, I don't have any issues with the latest generation Big-3 autos from a design/manufacturing standpoint (face it - all companies are heavily into robotics nowadays), but many of the local Big-3 dealers around where I live seem to go out of the way to hire the most ignorant service techs/personnel that they can find.
And, since the dealer is the company image we see when buying a car or having it serviced, what we see becomes our reality.
Forgive me for not reading all 8,550 posts to this thread.
I'd prefer to buy American, but it's not such a simple decision. Looking at the most common reasons for buying American:
Support American workers: That depends on how well the American manufacturers treat their American workers. Do they compensate them fairly and treat them with dignity? Do they tend to simply dump their American workers and stakeholders when they decide to source overseas? Are the American employees at US plants of foreign manufacturers treated better?
Keep one's purchase dollar in the country: That's pretty much impossible these days on any scale beyond the small, insular community. A large portion of American stock is held by foreign entities, and American companies invest in foreign stock to whatever extent it'll bring them the most earnings.
American quality is better than ever: That is highly debatable. I've seen the ratings, but have more faith in mechanics and people with diverse auto sales experience. Every time I've asked one of these people (when they had nothing to lose by being honest), they recommended a Japanese maker. From my own experience, I'll compare a friend's basic Corolla to my basic Cobalt. They're both cheapo tin boxes, but the attention to detail is much higher in the Corolla.
Ultimately, it comes down to which car is most likely to not leave you stranded, not drain your wallet, and leave you a decent resale value. As edifying as it is to buy American, donation isn't a consideration in my auto purchases.
I like the Ford Focus and Fusion, but would like to hear more about their reliability and overall quality. I also like that Ford wasn't one of the pigs at the restructuring trough when the govt was giving bailouts (so I heard). In the end, though, I'm sick of relying on cars. They're a huge expense and too often a disruption at a bad time. I liked it much better when I was living overseas and had an excellent public transportation system at my disposal.
Vincent....I agree with you completely. In this forum you've really stuck your neck out to get it chopped off. These are not people that agree with buying American. I hope you have thick skin!! LOLOL
Vincent....I agree with you completely. In this forum you've really stuck your neck out to get it chopped off. These are not people that agree with buying American. I hope you have thick skin!! LOLOL
Some, but not all.
I've owned several autos in my lifetime (so far), and with a single exception (the 1st year S-10 Blazer - it was red, but should have been painted bright yellow!), I had mostly positive results from both foreign and domestic models. Heck, I even had a mid-1970's Pontiac Astre (think Chevy Vega), and it was one of the best cars I ever owned. But, when I traded it, I practically gave it away, as it had such a HORRIBLE reputation.
So, in that regard, I am in agreement with Lemko. Most models do well with the proper maintenance and care.
Again, IMO, the experience one gets from his local dealer quite often has the most effect on how well one views an auto purchase, be it positive or negative.
Your inlaws could also be very meticulous about their car.
That would be a definite no. I mean, they don't mistreat their vehicles, but they don't go out of their way to take care of them either. My MIL drives her Camry on an 88 mile round trip commute into downtown Chicago from NW Indiana. Her previous Saturn SL2 was basically reduced to beater status 100k under same commute. My FIL told me the Toyota was the first car they'd ever owned that made to past 100k w/o a single repair being required. The Camry is the first non domestic vehicle they've purchased.
My 1989 Cadillac Brougham is still like new after 21+ years and 158K miles. Ask anybody who has seen it
And I'm sure it drives just as lousy today as the day it came off the assembly line;)
Germany makes fine cars. Japan makes fine cars. The US makes fine cars..... believe it or not. Here's my take on the whole thing. If I could afford a Mercedes, I'd probably buy one. If I could afford an Audi, I'd probably buy one. If I could afford a BMW, I'd probably buy one. If I could afford a Jag, I'd probably buy one. I CAN"T AFFORD THOSE!!! I can't afford an Infiniti. I can't afford a Lexus. I am NOT envious of those who can. I drive a Chevrolet. I sell Chevrolets and Buicks. I am well satisfied with my car. It's just a car.
These forums are just places to put other vehicles down or to try to tell someone how much you know. If you drive a GM, you bash the foreign cars. If you drive an import, you bash the GM's. If I were looking to purchase a vehicle I would not give any of these opinions a second thought. Drive what you want.....and enjoy your ride!
"Drives lousy" is also subjective. Drives lousy for what? Racing it in Formula 1? Drag racing? Rock climbing? Land speed record? NASCAR? Dirt track?
I drive the car in the city and on the PA Turnpike. For those purposes, the car drives very smoothly, quietly, and comfortably. Maybe you like that rock-hard ride of a BMW, but it isn't for me. I like the quiet comfort and smooth ride of a Cadillac or Buick. It's like sitting back in my living room sofa, I use the stand-up ornament to aim the car, look over that long elegant hood through that panoramic windshield and smile! :shades:
You are the only one happy with GM...everybody else....well...
What do they know anyway!
Frankly, GM has flopped every time its Chevrolet division has tried to succeed with small cars -- whether it was the unsafe-at-any-speed Corvair, problem-plagued Vega or forgettable Chevrolet Cobalt.
This time, "They can't afford to get it wrong," Krisher quotes Michael Robinet, an automotive analyst at CSM Worldwide in Michigan, as saying.
And David Champion of Consumer Reports points out there is a good reason why the cars haven't succeeded:
GM hasn't really tried. Small cars mean small profits, the old Detroit dictum goes.
Cruze's prospects are supposed to be brighter because GM thinks it has worked out the kinks. No more clanky tranmissions or noisy tires. And it gets 40 miles per gallon now. And now that it has drastically lowered its costs, achieving profitability on a small car may be easier to come by. It can pour a little more value in the car instead of trying to get away on the cheap.
"Drives lousy" is also subjective. Drives lousy for what? Racing it in Formula 1? Drag racing? Rock climbing? Land speed record? NASCAR? Dirt track?
LOL, I was referring back to my memories of driving my grandpa's '92 Roadmaster back when it was new. You had to aim via the hood ornament as it liked to float all over the road, it felt like a whale lumbering along. Comfortable? Sure. Those are teh types of cars I'd rather ride in than drive. It didn't last long either. By '96 and 100k miles in usual GM fashion it was falling apart.
I don't need a rock hard ride, just a vehicle that is responsive and not overly numb to the point of sucking the desire to drive right out of me.
Nope, the GM products I've had to endure do a thorough job of keeping that negative image alive and well!
Exactly. It's rather effortless...GM has been on negative cruise control for a long many years. Perhaps their public statements have a way of making sure the ride continues....not to mention the lack of cars that rate higher than a Cobalt. Ha! :lemon:
I'd prefer to buy American, but it's not such a simple decision. Looking at the most common reasons for buying American:
Hi Vincent, thanks for a thoughtful post.
But it seems that you would feel "buy American" would mean to buy a Mexican-built Fusion or a Canadian-built Camaro rather than a US-built Hyundai or Toyota or Honda or BMW.
That was the original question of this forum. What IS American (or more correctly, U.S.?).
In some ways supporting American COMPANIES means supporting vehicles built outside the country.
At other times, supporting American WORKERS means supporting foreign-nameplate vehicles built in the USA!
My Mom's '01 BPA is a Lemkomobile and has NEVER been in the shop with 50K.
That doesn't mean GM doesn't make junk Just means she finally got a good one! :shades:
100% reliable doesn't equate good car to me. My wife's GP has gone 68k miles w/o a repair. But it's still a BIG HEAPING PILE OF GARBAGE. Squeaks, and rattles and to top it off the plastic radio buttons are wearing to the point that is lets stray lights shine out to further annoy you while driving. I amuse my friends when we walk around it and notice how horrid all of the body panels and doors line up, just pathetic. You'd think it was assembled by drunken Mexicans.
Comments
I would prefer a Philadelphia-built BMW or a Trenton-built Benz. I'd have infinitely more respect for these foreign manufacturers if they located their plants in or near the inner city. Why do they locate their plants in remote areas like Alabama or S Carolina? Because the workforce has nowhere else to go! That way they could mistreat and underpay the workforce as much as they can as the workers have no recourse. What are their alternatives - get a crappy minimum wage job at the truck stop, convenience mart, or Wal~Mart? The more enterprising people might be farmers.
Of course those southern Benzes and Bimmers are the worst products in either company's lineup. I had a business associate who bought a new M-Class when they first came out and it was a complete and utter POS!
We need to be sure that lemko lives at least 50 years, so that SOMEONE will be alive that remembers GM and actually can say they like them...
I've had many great cars from GM. I've fewer troubles and cost than if I were to have gone with the popular with the blind masses Honda and toyotas/lexus/scion.
Some of the trolling on here is done just to hope to keep a negative image of GM going. IF they put their trouble and effort into trolling about the problems of toyota-lexus/scion and Honda, they would effect more change in getting something done to fix the perpetual problems those brands have. Have a new compressor for your CR-V, every summer? Transmission problems for your Honda, anyone? For you Odyssey? A company mute on fixing problems with your toyota-lexus-scion? Sneaking in fixes for sludge and runaway acceleration? Trying to avoid government reporting?
My GMs are serving me just fine: I have three at the moment.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The union folks have just plain ruined our country. Just remember what happened to Eastern Airlines and the mechanics union. They struck for more $$$ of course and this big air carrier went bankrupt. It departure closed down the entire C concourse of the Atlanta Airport. That concourse stayed unoccupied for years and years.
Good going union guys!
Errrr, that was a long time ago: 1988. It was about 2003 with the Accord when lots of failures and problems started showing up in the forums here. I pointed out regression to the mean was starting, and I feel it has come to fruition. Fellow across the road has what is perhaps a 2007 Acura RL version of the Accord with Super handling, etc. It needed EGR repair for $1200 about a year ago. I've never had pollution equipment fail on a GM.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
We also have a 2005 Mercury Grand Marquis LS. Well, every family has its black sheep!
I've never owned a Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bentley, Rolls, Nissan, Toyota, Chrysler, ect. and I've read about problems with all of them. Must all be pieces of garbage because the internet told me so :sick:
For example, if I was in the market for a used CR-V, since the AC compressors are prone to failure, I'd want a mechanic to pay close attention to that during the pre-purchase checkup. There's a long running forum here just about that issue, not simply an occasional one-off post.
For this question, lets say 100%.
The total profit for the Aveo goes to the USA (GM), but the Hyundai profit goes to Korea.
Of course, no USA wages were paid and no taxes were collected from the workers building the Aveo, while they were on the Hyundai. And, the effect of having a manufacturing plant in the USA has to count for something.
This isn;t a question that I have a good answer for, and so far, no one has been able to satisfactorily provide one. Yes, you will get many opinions, but I have yet to see the true $$$ effect between the two.
Living in upstate SC, I have seen the local benefits (statewide) from the BMW plant located here. But, does the local benefit translate into a national benefit?
Does funding the Big-3 with taxpayer $$$ help Detriot? How about nationally? Is it a benefit to the USA (after all things are considered), or does one section of the country benefit to the detriment of the rest of the country?
I don't know.
Some of the trolling on here...
So how do you KNOW you would have had more troubles and cost with the foreign makes you listed. Isn't that the trolling you speak about? :confuse: :P :shades:
Good going union guys!
"The UAW - building a strong America!" :sick:
Some of the trolling on here is done just to hope to keep a negative image of Toyota and the other foreign automakers going
I had terrible problems with my 2002 and 2004 Chevy products and the last time I checked that was not 20 years ago :P
I have two family members that had a 2006 Buick and a 2007 GMC who had to sell them because of how often they made their way to the dealerships for repairs even before the warranties expired!
again this is not 20 years ago :P
There are a couple people on the 2010 LaCrosse forums having electrical and gremlin problems with their brand new LaCrosse's so this idea that all these GM problems with GM happened over 20 years ago is BS! and before you use the, "oh, that is only 2-3 people excuse" that kind of stuff should not be happening on any new cars at this point in automotive production with all our big fancy technology, and supposed, improved GM quality, reliability (remains to be seen),etc
And I have not been in a Honda since I gave mine away in 2001, so I do not know how they are now, altho I have read the VCM problem on Honda V6s from 2009...
I think things have changed since 1988.
The seats in the standard Accord and Civic are oddly thin feeling. They feel like you'd get a pain from the crossbraces after a few hours driving. Now if you upgrade to my neighbor's $55-60,000 Acura RL, you probably get better seats.
Compared to spending 7 hours in my leSabre, 2003, from Smyrna, Tennessee, to home on Sunday and arriving home refreshed without back discomfort other than the pain of the heat outside and the stupid drivers, who were in a minority early on Sunday, I'll take my leSabres--both of them over the Accord and Camry I've sat in.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
General Motors Death Watch 198: History is Bunk
"">"ROAD TO REDEMPTION
And again... as recently as 2008
"ROAD TO REDEMPTION"
"ROAD TO REDEMPTION"
This whole GM suckage thing didn’t just happen overnight. It’s been a long time coming.
sorry lemko, buts it not a one way street with the foreign trashing vs domestic trashing! you and others do a terrible amount of that on the Toyota and other foreign discussions while others do the same stuff about GM on here!
Personally, I have heard very few people trash Ford. Ford is exactly doing a tremendously great job with their products with out the need for taking our money like GM and Chrysler do and I have even thought of cross shopping Ford the next time around myself. So if people on here like Ford, you can't say we all have problems and hate domestic automakers
Nope, the GM products I've had to endure do a thorough job of keeping that negative image alive and well!
I'll talk.
Fords were famous for not being as good as GM products in the "old days."
I swore I'd never own another ford in 1977 after a timing chain was bad at 75,000 miles. Then I won a Mustang Pace Car so I had to change it to "I'd never buy another Ford." I don't go around trolling about my thoughts on Fords. But they were marginal on the two Mustangs that I did buy in my youth. I recognized later the average Ford in my area didn't get the maintenance that the GM vehicles got from their owners due to a difference in the owners that were stereotypical of each group of cars.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
While several GM products, still have so-so reliability and some questionable cheap materials in certain places, though I have always admitted, the quality in GM products sine 2008 have improved a lot compared to pre-2008. I give GM credit when credit is due, unlike some others, but to think that in just a one year time frame since declaring bankruptcy and reorganizing the company that every single problem has been solved and fixed is ludicrous. See, Ford started changing their company and products a around several years before GM and so they are a few years ahead and they have had more time to demonstrate that their long-term reliability has improved and the quality of their products. All of the Ford line-up is recommended by CR for the last two years and justly so.
GM's long term reliability is going to take years to demonstrate that it has improved yet their are GM fanboys on here who think it already has or, in lemko's case, that there was nothing ever wrong since all this Caddy's and Buick's have been perfect! Just remember, GM still has models, like the Impala for instance, that still is a complete piece of crap and rental fodder and until GM finishes their overall on every single product, their quality and reliability is going to be lower as a brand!
Shame how Ford is better now than Chevrolet!
Well, watching my wife's 07 GP age at an alarming rate at only 3 years old & 67k miles tells me GM still is quite capable of producing crap. The interior is falling apart and it squeaks and rattles. My Suburban was the same way, once it hit about 50-60k the interior started to self destruct and it too rattled and squeaked (I won't bring up all the other issues again).
OTOH, my in-laws visited the other day and my MIL's 05 Camry XLS V6 has nearly 120k miles on it and the interior was in impeccable shape. I was shocked at how well the leather has held up on the drivers seat and the overall condition of the switch gear etc. I rode in it and the powertrain refinement between the camry and my wife's GP which has 1/2 the miles and is two years newer is stunning. The GP sounds, feels, and looks like a 20 year old beater in comparison. Not that the Camry is exiting or anything, but it did feel like an extremely well built and engineered vehicle. The polar opposite of most GM products that I've owned or sampled.
That may be an apples and oranges comparison, but the fact is only 2 years ago GM was producing a vehicle as horrific as the GP.
My 1989 Cadillac Brougham is still like new after 21+ years and 158K miles. Ask anybody who has seen it!
Your inlaws could also be very meticulous about their car. I've seen Mercedes and BMWs look like crap after a few years because their owners were neglectful, careless knuckleheads. There was a late model Mercedes E-Class at the supermarket the other day and it was all dinged-up, scratched, had cracked and broken lenses, and the interior could've qualified as a Superfund site. Heck, give me a Chevy Aveo, (a car I've seen bashed mercilessly on these boards) and it will still look like a new car ten years later.
Here's my take/opinion. What's best for the country is that I, as an individual, make an informed car-buying decision based on quality, value, reputation (carefully researched and not just on discussion forum opinions), and my personal needs for a vehicle. I also would forego symbolism, emotion, and whether my family/neighbor works for a certain auto manufacturer (unless they can get me a substantial discount which would be part of the value factor). Collectively, in my humble opinion, these decisions by millions of people in the marketplace will benefit the country as a whole as weak businesses will be replaced by strong businesses.
Did I follow that process to a "T" when I purchased a new car? Probably not. I let emotion color some of my perception as I avoided "bailout" and strong union companies though I strongly considered a Ford. In the end, that process led me to a 2010 Hyundai Sonata in which I am well pleased. My wife, no car buff but has a simple common sense feel for quality, sat in her sister's new (more expensive) HHR and said the interior felt "cheap" compared to our new Sonata. There's probably some owner's bias there, but still....
I concur in that my '98 Honda Accord still has a VERY nice interior. I've spent a few more dollars on repairs than I cared to but never any stranded situations and @ 182K, it is still a solid vehicle.
Excellent point, although as a former Aveo hatchback owner (2005 model), I have owned better made cars in my lifetime.
I grew up in the 1960's close to an old couple that owned a 1939 Chevrolet 4-door sedan. They bought it new, and kept it garaged when not in use. While it did have some wear and tear (after all, it was already 25 years old) and the paint was faded, it was in much better shape that probably 75% of cars 5 years old at that time. The widow owned the car when she died (in the mid 1980's), and I tried my best to get her son to sell me that car. Instead, he gave it to his dirt-bag son, who soon demolished it. It was a terrible fate for a car so well preserved. Thinking back on it now, I probably should have stolen it.
Proactive, proper maintenance will extend the life of just about any vehicle, although I have a friend that once owned a Renault that would argue that point with me. And, I admit, that Renault was one real POS!
A lot of car ownership satisfaction is directly related to the owner's expectations. That, and the dealer service provided.
Again, living in the South back in the 60's, almost anyone who owned a VW Beetle avoided going to the VW dealer like the plague, as most of them were seen as crooks.
Frankly, I don't have any issues with the latest generation Big-3 autos from a design/manufacturing standpoint (face it - all companies are heavily into robotics nowadays), but many of the local Big-3 dealers around where I live seem to go out of the way to hire the most ignorant service techs/personnel that they can find.
And, since the dealer is the company image we see when buying a car or having it serviced, what we see becomes our reality.
I'd prefer to buy American, but it's not such a simple decision. Looking at the most common reasons for buying American:
Support American workers: That depends on how well the American manufacturers treat their American workers. Do they compensate them fairly and treat them with dignity? Do they tend to simply dump their American workers and stakeholders when they decide to source overseas? Are the American employees at US plants of foreign manufacturers treated better?
Keep one's purchase dollar in the country: That's pretty much impossible these days on any scale beyond the small, insular community. A large portion of American stock is held by foreign entities, and American companies invest in foreign stock to whatever extent it'll bring them the most earnings.
American quality is better than ever: That is highly debatable. I've seen the ratings, but have more faith in mechanics and people with diverse auto sales experience. Every time I've asked one of these people (when they had nothing to lose by being honest), they recommended a Japanese maker. From my own experience, I'll compare a friend's basic Corolla to my basic Cobalt. They're both cheapo tin boxes, but the attention to detail is much higher in the Corolla.
Ultimately, it comes down to which car is most likely to not leave you stranded, not drain your wallet, and leave you a decent resale value. As edifying as it is to buy American, donation isn't a consideration in my auto purchases.
I like the Ford Focus and Fusion, but would like to hear more about their reliability and overall quality. I also like that Ford wasn't one of the pigs at the restructuring trough when the govt was giving bailouts (so I heard). In the end, though, I'm sick of relying on cars. They're a huge expense and too often a disruption at a bad time. I liked it much better when I was living overseas and had an excellent public transportation system at my disposal.
Some, but not all.
I've owned several autos in my lifetime (so far), and with a single exception (the 1st year S-10 Blazer - it was red, but should have been painted bright yellow!), I had mostly positive results from both foreign and domestic models. Heck, I even had a mid-1970's Pontiac Astre (think Chevy Vega), and it was one of the best cars I ever owned. But, when I traded it, I practically gave it away, as it had such a HORRIBLE reputation.
So, in that regard, I am in agreement with Lemko. Most models do well with the proper maintenance and care.
Again, IMO, the experience one gets from his local dealer quite often has the most effect on how well one views an auto purchase, be it positive or negative.
That would be a definite no. I mean, they don't mistreat their vehicles, but they don't go out of their way to take care of them either. My MIL drives her Camry on an 88 mile round trip commute into downtown Chicago from NW Indiana. Her previous Saturn SL2 was basically reduced to beater status 100k under same commute. My FIL told me the Toyota was the first car they'd ever owned that made to past 100k w/o a single repair being required. The Camry is the first non domestic vehicle they've purchased.
My 1989 Cadillac Brougham is still like new after 21+ years and 158K miles. Ask anybody who has seen it
And I'm sure it drives just as lousy today as the day it came off the assembly line;)
These forums are just places to put other vehicles down or to try to tell someone how much you know. If you drive a GM, you bash the foreign cars. If you drive an import, you bash the GM's. If I were looking to purchase a vehicle I would not give any of these opinions a second thought. Drive what you want.....and enjoy your ride!
I drive the car in the city and on the PA Turnpike. For those purposes, the car drives very smoothly, quietly, and comfortably. Maybe you like that rock-hard ride of a BMW, but it isn't for me. I like the quiet comfort and smooth ride of a Cadillac or Buick. It's like sitting back in my living room sofa, I use the stand-up ornament to aim the car, look over that long elegant hood through that panoramic windshield and smile! :shades:
What do they know anyway!
Frankly, GM has flopped every time its Chevrolet division has tried to succeed with small cars -- whether it was the unsafe-at-any-speed Corvair, problem-plagued Vega or forgettable Chevrolet Cobalt.
This time, "They can't afford to get it wrong," Krisher quotes Michael Robinet, an automotive analyst at CSM Worldwide in Michigan, as saying.
And David Champion of Consumer Reports points out there is a good reason why the cars haven't succeeded:
GM hasn't really tried. Small cars mean small profits, the old Detroit dictum goes.
Cruze's prospects are supposed to be brighter because GM thinks it has worked out the kinks. No more clanky tranmissions or noisy tires. And it gets 40 miles per gallon now. And now that it has drastically lowered its costs, achieving profitability on a small car may be easier to come by. It can pour a little more value in the car instead of trying to get away on the cheap.
A good small car from GM? We're still waiting.
Don't Hold Your Breath - Just Keep Consuming More Controlled Substances
Regards,
OW
LOL, I was referring back to my memories of driving my grandpa's '92 Roadmaster back when it was new. You had to aim via the hood ornament as it liked to float all over the road, it felt like a whale lumbering along. Comfortable? Sure. Those are teh types of cars I'd rather ride in than drive. It didn't last long either. By '96 and 100k miles in usual GM fashion it was falling apart.
I don't need a rock hard ride, just a vehicle that is responsive and not overly numb to the point of sucking the desire to drive right out of me.
A blind management+high energy prices+low quality products+debt crises = Avalanche!! "Look out below!!" :lemon:
Regards,
OW
Exactly. It's rather effortless...GM has been on negative cruise control for a long many years. Perhaps their public statements have a way of making sure the ride continues....not to mention the lack of cars that rate higher than a Cobalt. Ha! :lemon:
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
That doesn't mean GM doesn't make junk Just means she finally got a good one! :shades:
Regards,
OW
May the Best Car Win! Have fun in a very fine choice, indeed!
Regards,
OW
Corvair
Chevette :lemon:
Cavalier :lemon:
Cobalt :lemon:
.. will Cruze be the game changer? :confuse:
Hi Vincent, thanks for a thoughtful post.
But it seems that you would feel "buy American" would mean to buy a Mexican-built Fusion or a Canadian-built Camaro rather than a US-built Hyundai or Toyota or Honda or BMW.
That was the original question of this forum. What IS American (or more correctly, U.S.?).
In some ways supporting American COMPANIES means supporting vehicles built outside the country.
At other times, supporting American WORKERS means supporting foreign-nameplate vehicles built in the USA!
I've thought that about American cars - particularly GM - for a long time. They can be great passenger cars. I just don't much care for driving them.
That doesn't mean GM doesn't make junk Just means she finally got a good one! :shades:
100% reliable doesn't equate good car to me. My wife's GP has gone 68k miles w/o a repair. But it's still a BIG HEAPING PILE OF GARBAGE. Squeaks, and rattles and to top it off the plastic radio buttons are wearing to the point that is lets stray lights shine out to further annoy you while driving. I amuse my friends when we walk around it and notice how horrid all of the body panels and doors line up, just pathetic. You'd think it was assembled by drunken Mexicans.