This is truly an innovation for Ford and takes the keyless go concept even further and more usable.
I haven't seen this information published (I got it from an engineer) so I won't post it verbatim. But here's the gist of how it will work:
The keyless go transmitter also contains an actual physical key in case the battery is dead. There is a holder in the glove box that puts the transmitter physically next to the receiver in case the batter is simply weak or there is some other type of interference.
Here's the neat part: you can leave the transmitter in the vehicle and then lock the vehicle using the new integrated invisible keypad on the B pillar. At that point the keyless go feature is disable so if someone breaks into the vehicle they can't start it. When you use the keypad to unlock the vehicle the transmitter is re-activated and works as normal. So you don't have to take the transmitter with you if you're going swimming, running, attending an amusement park, etc. Since no other car company uses keypads I think this feature will be a Ford/Lincoln exclusive for quite some time.
Add Sync with the new 911 capability and integrated navigation, distronic cruise and adaptive HIDs and I think it's clear that Ford is catching up and even moving ahead in some technology areas.
The transmitter and key pad combo makes more sense than those systems that simply exchange a key with a transmitter fob. Now, if Lincoln could make a sedan to go along with these innovations that is a bit smaller and less bulky than the MKS, and not as boring as the MKZ, I would be back in the fold.
The MKR concept looked to be a nice size. It would be great if they could bring out a RWD sedan that is not huge. The MKS could meet the big or portly crowd's needs, and a revised MKZ could continue to satisfy those who want an entry level luxury car and don't care all that much about driving dynamics or standing out. My fear is that they will make the MKR as big or bigger than the S. I suspect we'll see another Lincoln RWD concept within a year or two.
Considering that GRWD will incorporate the Mustang and Falcon and given the response to the MKR, I don't see how they can't offer a midsized RWD Lincoln version in addition to a longer full sized version to replace the Panthers. I think they'll keep the D3 vehicles for luxury, fuel economy and AWD. Assuming they can recoup the platform costs on the volume of the mustang and falcon alone (they do it today with 2 platforms so this shouldn't be difficult) then the other variations (like the MKR) could be low volume and still make money.
Congratulations, datagen. I have a few questions for you already. Did you order from the website or did you work with a dealer? Have they given you an idea of when to expect delivery? What color exterior and interior?
A few weeks ago, the website showed a "wood door trim package" that I think was around $350. That option is no longer listed on the website. Do you know what the situation is with that? They should make it standard, IMO. I hope they haven't decided not to offer it. I think the door panels look pretty non-descript without something to dress them up.
The brochure mentions that some items (20" wheels, adaptive cruise) will not be available until later. Did you find other options that are not available at launch?
I will be happy to answer your questions. First off I selected what I wanted (which was everything) and at the last step before I hit the order button (at the summary) I made a snapshot and sent it to my dealer. Now here is the deal from what I understand.
The 20inch wheels, and the adaptive cruise control will not be available on the first batch. So for my order, we are looking at September October time frame. I was going to wait for the eco-boost engine, but an associate of mine said that you could get roughly the same mileage with mobil1 (15,000 version) oil and a can of duralube. Which in a sense I do not understand the need of duralube with mobil1. The wood door trim is what I ordered and it is news to me currently.
I understand within 90 days of your order est delivery date they (Lincoln/Ford) will assign a curiosity rep to inform the customer of the order, changes and approx delivery date of the vehicle. I do agree that the wood trim makes it look better and it is Ford’s conservatism all the way down the line that frustrates me at times. You mean to tell me with all the highly educated people under their flag, they cannot figure out what they can or cannot deliver?
The tease is not appreciated and even though I understand it is part of marketing, it is getting old and they should not jerk their loyal customers this way. When GM announced the CTS, even though they market it as a proto, they surprised everyone that it was available as a full production vehicle. They flew off the lots, which I would have thought Ford would have taken notes. But it is hard to see when you have those conservative glasses on. I love my Zephyr, and this tells me that Ford/Lincoln can do it when they put their minds together. They just got to work on the timing.
Thanks, datagen. I will look forward to hearing more as time goes on. At the auto show, the rep told me dealers should have cars by early June. I called my dealer and he told me July.
The story of the Mobil 1 and Duralube doesn't make any sense. Ford products already use 5W20 synthetic blend oil from the factory and Mobil 1 isn't going to make much difference. In any case, the idea of the Ecoboost is to give the power of a 4.6 V8 but with better mileage than one would get with the V8. I don't believe that anyone has said that the Ecoboost would get better mileage than a naturally aspirated V6 of equal displacement. More power, for sure, and maybe mileage almost as good, but not better.
I certainly agree with your basic assessment that Ford doesn't think too far outside of the box. They are often late to the party but, at least, their product launches have been flawless lately in terms of quality.
First, I am really really puzzled by someone ordering a $40,000+ vehicle without first actually SEEING or DRIVING the thing. But, what do I know? Each to his own.
Next, on that site full of a bunch of idiots, as I was once told here, namely TTAC, there is (or was this morning) a picture of the 2009, no wait maybe it's the 2010, whichever year, it's a picture of the "new" Ford 500 oops - Taurus. And lemme tell ya, if it actually is the real thing, they might actually have done it right this time. It's a bit hard to tell, it's a real small picture. But it looks quite nice. At first, I though it bore a strong resemblence to the new Camry. But that I think was partly due to the color- which is a lime pie green which I see on a lot of Camrys around here. On closer inspection, this car looks a whole lot like the MKS, perhaps not surprisingly. The Gillette grille is gone pretty much and is body colored rather than plastichrome. If I were in the market for a car like the MKS, I might take a deep breath and wait for more info on this, cause the mechanicals are practically identical and if it's the look u like, you might save $10,000 on the Ford or Mercury version. Assuming there is a Mercury version. :confuse:
[edit] After reading posts on TTAC and looking at some links there, I see this car really resembles more the Mondeo and Falcon. THough there is a little pre-cowcatcher mks in there too. Overall, an improvement. At least in the front. Dont know if the profile or rear changed at all and would be willing to bet on the same boring interior. [edit]
Last, there's a story on BON and making the rounds about how Ford's quality is as good as Toyota and Honda now. Well, that's the headline, actually the other two still lead in absolute numbers, just the lead I think is within statistical margin of error. Interestingly, guess who PAID for this survey, which will be touted in Ford's new ad campaign? GO ahead, take a stab at it.
Does it matter who paid the RDA Group to do the research? Obviously, Ford is one of their clients and this research was done for Ford. I suppose it might matter to some.
Initial quality or customer satisfaction surveys don't carry much weight with me, anyway. Some people don't spend enough time test driving or researching vehicles prior to purchase and then like to complain - or they don't have a basis for comparison because they only looked at 1 or 2 brands. Others are blinded by brand loyalty or brand reputation and will excuse problems that others would find unacceptable. I prefer to do my own research and rely on my own judgement on most things automotive.
As an owner of a 2008 Taurus, and as one who rents a lot of different vehicles, I have no problem believing that the Taurus would be a segment leader in customer satisfaction. I have never driven a car that exceeded my expectations more than this one. Bring on the new body style so it has the looks to match its other virtues!
Agreed on the Mobil1 and Duralube theory. It struck me strange as well knowing that the 5w20 was the same thing. I am willing to wait to make sure that I get exactly what I want.
I forgot to tell you I ordered it in the wood trim and the exterior color of red (I guess mid life crises car). I have read where some are confused on a person ording a vehicle and have not drove it. Well to understand this, you have to be a Ford guy. I have had Ford vehicles for most of my life and I have never had one time where any of those vehicles failed to start or break down on the side of the road. Many can claim the same with BMW’s, Audi’s, Mercedes, and even Cadillac’s so just put me in there and put Lincoln on the list as well as far as I am concern.
I also feel proud of the fact that I am support American workers, machines, and organization. Even if many of the parts may be coming from overseas, I at least can support the assembly in my own Country. Ford does not make to many bold steps like the MKS, but when they do, they make an effort to try and get it right the first time. Sometime they do not know they have it right right off the bat and more conservatisms sets in. But I do appreciate the quality and workmanship involved for the times we live in. With consumer report saying that quality has come back in American vehicles, and JDPowers checking the quality aspects as well. Even though it may have been late, at least you can’t say never.
If they are doing improvements from the Zephyr, MKZ, and MKX vehicles (from which I understand Volvo techs were involved), then I believe the MKS will be fine in time. By the way even if you order and do not like the vehicle, do not sign and walk away. By the time the dealer wants to get legal with you, they would have sold the vehicle to someone else.
The Truth About Cars (a bunch of idiots was a pretty fair description) Blue Oval News
The picture and associated threads were taken down at Ford's request from several websites so I think it's a safe bet that it was real. I think it's a home run if they get the interior right (similar to the Flex).
Blue Oval News - used to be a site that could be counted on to skewer Ford when they did something worng. But at some point I think Ford got to the cause they're basically a marketing mouthpiece now.
"The picture and associated threads were taken down at Ford's request from several websites so I think it's a safe bet that it was real. I think it's a home run if they get the interior right (similar to the Flex). "
It is a conservative but well-drawn design. Sits well on its wheelbase. Better proportions than the MKS, which by comparison looks kind of fat, too chunky tall.
Like you, datagen, I am a Ford guy so I can understand ordering one without driving it. If Ecoboost had been available at launch and if I was confident that the interior was better than the show car that I viewed, I would have ordered one without driving it, too. I would get the Sangria Red with Camel interior.
I still might order one after my dealer has one that I can drive. I want to make sure that I am happy with the performance of the base engine. I also want to be sure of the interior design and option availability. Also, I would feel a bit more comfortable in negotiating price after the car is on the market for a few weeks. I have a feeling that there might be more opportunity to deal after the car is actually launched.
If the base engine leaves me cold, I will wait for the Ecoboost or move on to something else. My old LS might become an antique before Ford has a suitable replacement!
Like both you and datagen, I've always been a Ford guy. But I was once a democrat too. Having been screwed over by both these entities once too often, I am now neither.
With all due respect, and that is a lot dont misunderstand, Lincoln will never have a suitable replacement for the LS. I know, just my opinion here. But the automotive press agrees. Lincoln is over. I think I could write a pretty accurate review of the mks right now. And it wouldnt be pretty. If it was a Mercury, yeah. But waiting 4 years after the intro of the ford/merc versions of this platform for something with the same base engine (OK, what 5 more hp? Why even bother) and a pedestrian interior seems a waste. Gizmos are nice, but you dont drive a disappearing keypad.
I still dont see why u dont just get a Jag XF or even a Volvo S80. Both are now miles ahead of anything Lincoln is even thinking about. And they're both (sorta) Ford. And what makes anyone think the interior of the real mks will be any better than what's been shown on turntables at auto shows? That just doesn't seem a reasonable expectation to me. Best to ya.
Holy crap! I didn't think you were ever a democrat! Well, at least you had the good sense to switch.....
Yes, both you and I could write a pretty accurate review of the MKS right now. Our reviews would be a bit different based on our tastes but both would likely be accurate. When I say a "replacement for the LS" I don't mean just like the LS. I want to upgrade the luxury, interior quality, passenger space, and acceleration above my current LS. An S80 is out of the question. The interior is spartan, there is no room in the back seat, it lacks many luxury features, and it looks just like an S60 that has been around for years. The XF is $10,000 more money than I want to spend and there is a waiting list for them so it is not an option.
I do agree with you that you don't make a luxury car just by adding gizmos. The base engine on the MKS is certainly nothing special. The show car interior that I saw was not as upscale as a Taurus Limited. All of these things concern me and are the reasons that I haven't ordered one. When I do finally see and drive a production model, I will give it a chance to impress. If it doesn't, it is on to Plan B.
By the way, my wife's Taurus does exceed my LS in interior quality, room, and acceleration. I just couldn't live with the D-L shifter, mundane appearance, and lack of telescoping steering wheel. At least the MKS fixes those shortcomings.
Plus, in a few more months after the MKS launch, there will be a new Taurus that will be better looking than the Lincoln.
You are basing a lot on that blurry picture, Gregg. I agree it looks great from the angle we see. I am not so sure the proportions are much different than the current Taurus. The roof seems flatter so it doesn't look as bubble-topped as the current Taurus. The MKS roof is flatter, too.
Whatever they do, the upcoming Taurus will look better than the current one. Some have said the wrecked Taurus that is at some of the car shows looks better than an unwrecked version!
It is pretty clear even from the blurry picture that they got the Taurus proportions right. The bubble top as you say is gone. It is now more Audi A8 in profile.
The MKS of course it better than the current Taurus, but it is still too tall and bulky looking, less than graceful for its length. The hood and A pillars are well done and the shoulders are ok. It is the roofline and the swollen trunk area. While a definite improvement over the 08 Taurus, it isn't as integrated a design as it could have been. We have to remember though that the basic MKS shape has been set in stone for a long time now. The designers at Ford have thankfully moved beyond the fat tall sedan look that they delusionally thought would take the world by storm.
B for Buick! Very funny, Jeyhoe! No Buicks for me, though, at least for another 20 years or so.
Being a Ford guy really does cramp my style, though. There are a number of competitive makes that would suit me fine if I wasn't so dam* loyal. I like Ford products but I will not buy one unless it is competitive in its market segment. Right now, the only segments in which Ford is really competitive is full-size mainstream sedan (Taurus) and sporty coupe (Mustang GT). The Fusion is decent in its segment but is in need of the changes coming for the 2010 model year. Actually, the Mustang is in need of changes, too, but it currently has no real competition.
2010 is shaping up to be pretty exciting - significantly changed Taurus, Mustang, and Fusion along with the Ecoboost MKS. I will only have about 125,000 miles on my LS by then!
I understoond from inside sources that there would be some inprovement to the center counsole, we shall see. You do have a point in the dealing on the price. That is why I was willing to wait later on it for what I wanted. I felt I wouldbe in a better position price wise then. I can't see the 3.7 leaving you cold. The 3.5 got me a ticket the other day )
To tell you the truth, my dealer had one and secrtly let me have it for the weekend. I do not know where he got it and some of the features were not activated yet, but I loved the feel and handling of it. I believe the 3.7 is all I would ever need. Of course it was not the color I wanted inside or out but the feel was great. Nice to have power sterring, and the camera for backing up was a nice feature as well.
I guess my critics out there can understand the ording of it now.
Wow! If I could test drive an MKS for the weekend this far in advance of launch, I would probably leave them my first-born for collatoral.
The local dealer with whom I have always had a good relationship has changed owners and now just sell Kias. I contacted another dealer and, at first, they didn't act like they had ever heard of an MKS. Finally, they indicated that they wouldn't have one until July. Now they keep sending me stupid emails asking "are you still interested in an MKX"?
"Wow! If I could test drive an MKS for the weekend this far in advance of launch, I would probably leave them my first-born for collatoral. "
Yeah, but how's the dealer gonna explain that 47 yr old guy locked in the credit office over the weekend?
"The local dealer with whom I have always had a good relationship has changed owners and now just sell Kias. I contacted another dealer and, at first, they didn't act like they had ever heard of an MKS. Finally, they indicated that they wouldn't have one until July. Now they keep sending me stupid emails asking "are you still interested in an MKX"? "
Ha - well-trained Lincoln marketing types, eh? BTW, my Lincoln dealer of choice also sells Kias.
And somehow I'm having prblems believing the story about a test drive in a mks this early, unless datagen is in Detroit? Or his real name is Ford? This is pretty unheard of. At least to this old hick.
Looked at and sat in an MKS at a local dealership. It was a pre-production model, but the workmanship was very good with tight gaps and tolerances. Very impressed with the quality of the interior materials. Style of the car is very classy, unlike the critical write-up in Automobile magazine a couple of months back (what was he smoking?). Hardly a hint of hard plastic in sight or feel. Nicely sized trunk, though access is through a very small trunk opening. Engine compartment looks nice and tidy. The car, White Suede with Camel leather, is a very nice color combo. Think of the MKS as the Continental replacement. Still awaiting the Town Car replacement. Thinking of dumping my '07 DTS for an MKS when the lease is up in March of '09, though the seats aren't quite as cushioned and comfy in MKS. Have to drive the MKS first.
Yeah, but how's the dealer gonna explain that 47 yr old guy locked in the credit office over the weekend?
Very funny, jeyhoe! Young whipper-snappers like you ought to have more respect for your elders!
Well we have two posts now from people who have checked out the MKS at their dealers. I just called another local dealer and talked with a Sales Manager. He seemed pretty up-to-speed on the MKS but said they wouldn't have one until July or August.
Lincoln is trying to build the hype on this car, that's the reason they're sending pre-production mules around to a very narrow dealer circuit, to build interest and to tantalize the market. Ford rarely does this, but has had some history of it in the past. Most manufacturers engage in this practice occassionally, just some more than others. There are a few of these cars out there that were used on the auto show circuit and as press preview vehicles. I had a chance to sit in one at the San Francisco International Auto Show last November, 2007. It too was the White Chocolate exterior and Charcoal Black w/Ebony Wood interior. I was thoroughly impressed with the car at that time, and even though it was a pre-production show model that is usually hand-bolted together, I too was impressed with how good a job they did on the car. Usually they don't let you sit in cars like that because the tolerances aren't very tight and the flaws are usually many, which for the most part are worked out during the production faze. Things like upholstery stitching, trim items, fit & finish, and tolerances. But that car was nearly production quality. I actually like the looks of the car a lot. It's not an earth shattering or leading edge design by any means, but it's a welcome departure from Ford's history of punching out re-badged Ford division clones for Lincoln (ie: MKZ/Fusion, MKX/Edge, Navigator/Expedition, etc.).
I have since had a chance to not only sit in, but also take a short drive in a press preview unit that was being used for photo shoots and auto media drives. This promotional unit was also a pre-production unit, just bolted together with a little more TLC so that it's closer to final production quality. Units like this are also used for emissions testing, crash testing, endurance testing, as well as for promo purposes. Definate quality improvement over the show car, and nearly final production quality; needless to say, I was again very impressed with the car in general. The Tuxedo Black paint is exquisite, and I really liked the Cashmere interior; but I'm really anxious to see that Olive Ash Wood, which only comes with the Light Camel interior. I wasn't able to really put my foot on it, but the car felt good on acceleration and had a very good ride quality. And while I would not say it was lackluster at all, I would say it could very well benefit from the Ecoboost engine. I drive an '06 Audi A6 4.2 Quattro (which I think has spoiled me somewhat), but I also own an '05 Lincoln Town Car Signature L (for entertaining my clients in) and my wife has an'08 Mercury Mariner Hybrid (which she loves). Now while the MKS doesn't quite stack-up to my Audi, it's definitely a better handling and higher quality car than my Town Car. But it's not designed to be what my Town Car was designed to be (and I'm very happy with my Town Car). Though I will say that the MKS is significantly closer to my Audi in character than to my Town Car. It doesn't quite match-up in quality and feel (there's something missing that goes down to the DNA level), but it's also not a $65k+ car either, so I guess there's a value story in there somewhere. I will say this: put the Ecoboost engine in it and keep the price close to $50k for a loaded-up unit (and boy, this thing has plenty of toys available), and Lincoln will have a real winner in their deck. At 75-80% of the cost of the cost of a new Audi A6, BMW 5-Series, Cad STS, Lexus G-Series or M/Bnz E-Class, I think the MKS stands a good chance of earning a few conquest sales. But the key is, Lincoln has to consistently deliver 95+% of the quality those cars offer, with 105+% of the toys & gadgets, at 85% or less of their price. From what I see, it looks as though Lincoln may have found that recipe with the MKS. :surprise: :shades:
A lot of interesting comments lately about MKS, both in this forum and throughout the media. And it's just getting started. Lincoln did a good job of creating interest and stoking the fire. Wait til the car gets here, I believe it's gonna take off and be a real winner for Lincoln. It's about time, cause they need it, badly. Bye the way, Lincoln will start shipping the MKSs in June. Some dealers may even see their first ones before June is out. Now Lincoln is just starting the early info leaks on their new MKT, which is due in the dealerships by late-spring or early-summer of 2009. Another beautiful vehicle that's very well done. This one moves the departure from being a Ford division clone even further down the road. It's an absolutely startlingly beautiful vehicle which I think is going to be another winner for Lincoln. And now, if only they'd decide to go on and make the MKR (which I hear they're working on a version of) and the RWD replacement for the Town Car (based on the Aussie platform), Lincoln could be off to the races with some real contenders. I hope so, because I'm a real Lincoln fan.
NP jeyhoe, It was a special thing and it was enough to convince me that they are serious about taking the next step (that they should have been taken). Yet I do have my quirks also. I have already sent my comments to the fact that if you display a product with all the bells and whistles, then you should be able to provide those bells and whistles from the start. Not put them on the web site and then take them off due to logistical challenges that people whom have been in this field for years should have mastered by now.
Yet due to my experience in other organizations, I bet the logistical folks had already told management. Between them and marketing nobody listened and results is what we are seeing now. A slap like this across the face from a manufacture like Ford towards it loyal Lincoln customers may mean lower sales across the line. I hope they will see that to please customers is to provide more as a surprise, which would be a great thing to do at launch time. To many times in the past companies like Ford depends on the public’s amnesia to get them through.
These are challenging times and you need every advantage over the other guy you can get. I have seen many times when a company sits back on their laurels once they feel they "Have Arrived". A costly thing to do especially by the time you find out what you did wrong, you have missed the time to make any corrections.
If Ford is to survive, they must do the following:
1. Diversify 2. Insure strong communications amongst its customers 3. Continue to push the GREEN 4. Continue to push the QUALITY 5. Advertise more of not only the product, but also the people making and using them 6. Bring back the "Job One" slogan 7. Advance the training and retooling of not only the products, but the employees, customers, and public as well 8. Provide additional support of sold products (upgrades, customization, etc)
Now some of these I know is beyond Ford's ability. There is just too much conservatism (fear) to take steps as bold as these. But I believe that there comes a time when there is more at stake here than just money. It is survival and if Ford is going to survive, bold steps like these are not just a chance; they are a requirement for existence.
You obviously haven't seen the new Drive One ad campaign. It's exactly what you described and is a breath of fresh air. Farley is going to be worth every penny, just like Mulally.
I've seen the ads. Guess what? They dont impress me (surprised?) Not only that, but I think the FCC or whomever should have them pulled. this BULL CR*P tag line that says, paraphrasing " and YES, ford's quality is as good as Toyota's" is too much to take. What bull. SO ONE study PAID FOR BY FORD says Ford is 'within the statistical margin of error in INITIAL quality of toyota and honda' What garbage. First of all if statistical margin of error counted for anything, we'd have president kerry right now, God forbid .not that the current guy is George Washington, but I digress. And if you look at the graphs, Ford is THIRD, BEHIND Toyota and Honda. BFD. Its a flat out LIE. But marketers will say anything until they're called on it. And anyone who's owned a car longer than 6 months knows that Initial Quality dont count for much. And if you own a ford or especially lincoln after the warrantee runs out, you KNOW IQ means SQUAT. This whole thing JD Power started is the biggest blivet I've ever heard of. Initial quality my foot.
Yes I have seen it. I guess drive vs job is an equal. As long as the goal is there. I guess it is a personal thing with the current employment situation and all.
Just because Ford paid for the study doesn't mean it's biased. They pay for JD Power reports, too. And Ford's study on IQS has tracked almost identically to JD Power's IQS scores. It's accurate and statistically valid. The reason Ford does these types of studies is so they can get feedback on quality issues much more quickly than just waiting for the JD Power reports every year. And if this company didn't produce results that agreed with other industry surveys - they wouldn't be in business very long.
It's also been proven that the IQS results tend to track very well with the Vehicle Dependability Surveys that Power produces. Ford has 2 problems relative to this report:
Ford's best vehicles (Fusion, Milan, MKZ) in terms of quality will not be eligible for the VDS results until next year because it only surveys 3 yr old models. The models in this year's survey will be 2005 models.
If you look at Ford as a brand, they have a much larger percentage of trucks (real trucks, not Ridgelines) and real SUVs than the import brands (same is true of Chevy). Trucks and SUVs have always had more quality issues than cars (even the imports) so this hurts Ford and Chevy in the overall quality standings. This is one reason why Mercury as a brand always does better than Ford.
The fact is that Ford's quality has improved dramatically while Toyota's has clearly dropped. And Ford SHOULD be touting that in their advertisements. And anyone that doesn't believe that needs to take off their blinders.
Just saying "Quality is job 1" doesn't work. "Drive Quality. Ford is now equal to Toyota in quality." is a much better message. This is where Farley is earning his money - figuring out how to send a message that will cause people to change their opinion of Ford, rather than just throwing out a cute slogan.
Hi jeyhoe, I understand your frustration. You may be right in the marketing area. Sometimes those guys will swear the car will drive across water, as long as they aren’t driving it. I will have to disagree will you on the JD Powers pitch. From what I understand there are several inspections done by JD Powers on certain vehicles and the Zephyr/MKZ,X,S were all in the line up. I was able to see the initial inspection of the MKS by JD Powers done sometime last year and it was not good. You could tell that they came a long way based upon that first inspection. I believe this justifies some of the comments I have been reading about those whom have been in the vehicle and expected less quality than they experience being quite surprised.
Being a long time Ford customer I have seen quite an improvement. Good as Toy’s and Honda’s? I believe the jury may be still out on this cause I have had Honda’s as well. I will say that if they are not neck and neck, then I believe the gap is closing, quite rapidly if I may say so.
All this boils down to ATD. The best one with it will be favored. Consumers seem to know quality when they see or feel it.
I have no problem with how Ford gets its data and it doesn't bother me that they pay for it. However, I cringe when I hear "as good as." As far as I am concerned, you don't make comparisons unless you are superior - not just as good as.
"Drive one" is a good tag line because many Ford products do drive very well and are even best in class in some areas. The comparison ads between the Fusion, Accord, and Camry were great because they showed where the Fusion shines. The Taurus could be a good candidate for comparison to others due to its superior room, ride, quiet, and price.
"However, I cringe when I hear "as good as." As far as I am concerned, you don't make comparisons unless you are superior - not just as good as. "
Well said, Bruce. And the sad thing is that they're NOT just as good, unless you're a statistician and consider the 'margin of error'. If u look at the graph, and u can on BON, Ford is very plainy 3rd, behing Toy and Hon. The margin of error could just as well put the other two FARTHER AHEAD of Ford. It's ridiculous. That they are using this to say as good as is desperation and borders on unethical. So I guess it's a great job by Farley then, marketing wise. "say it if u can get away with it" is what passes for morality with marketers. And who's gonna call him on it but me?
Guess I never did like products that are advertised as good or better than (this other commonly recognized quality product). Advertise on your own merits or compare to the class performance as a whole. Ford is better than Chevy (or Toyota) is too much like rooting for your favorite football team. And "as good as" sounds like store brand advertising: it will appeal to certain people, but it will never build a reputation.
Could someone please define the word "problem" for me as it relates to these surveys?
In the past couple of years, I have probably had half a dozen Camrys as rentals. Every single one of them had a problem as far as I am concerned. Squeaky creaks in the dash and "B" pillar were common. More irritating is an engine so gutless or a transmission so confused that they will downshift if you happen to drive into a gust of wind or up the slightest incline. Apparently, Camry owners don't consider these "problems."
Sometimes, I think these surveys say more about the buyer than it does the car.
The MKS is a more stylish looking car outside. Nice lines and flow. The LS however has a more classic look that I think will stand the test of time. But I do like the mks look. The interior of the mks is still an unknown quantity. From the pix I've seen, it looks no better than the LS, which was not at the top of it's class interior-wise either. Some say or think the production models will have better interiors. Personally I doubt it. I think the interior is a done deal. But then I doubted that dealers had pre-pro mkses to drive and 2 posters have told me I'm wrong on that. The big deal of course is how it drives and what's under it. As u probably know, the s is FWD. The LS of course is RWD. Also, the LS was close to 50-50 weight distribution with the V8 being, IIRC 52-48 and the V6 51-49. That's a big deal handling-wise and, along wth RWD, puts the LS pretty much out of the S' league for handling. Yeah, get an AWD mks and it may be better balanced and certainly will handle better than the FWD model and be better than the LS in rain or snow. But I think you get my point. It really depends on what u like about your LS. If it's the handling etc, you may need to look elsewhere (Infiniti? BMW? Jaguar?) for a replacement. Just one man's opinion.
Thanks, jeyhoe. I get your drift. In 2006, I voted with the 330xi. It is hands down better then the LS so I do not hold much hope of the MKS meeting the current handling experience for me.
Gotta be fair though - much smaller vehicle than LS. Bound to be a snappier handler. I remember the LS was tested to outhandle the 5-series, which is almost as big as the LS. Of course, the test that made this claim was paid for by Ford
Why do you keep harping on the "Ford paid for a survey/comparison test/etc.". Do you think these things are free? Somebody has to pay for them. If Ford wanted doctored results then they'd just do them in-house. Cheaper and easier. Doctored results don't help Ford and they certainly don't help the reputation of the companies doing the surveys or tests.
All companies do these types of benchmark comparisons. They need it to gauge where they are at relative to the competition and, if the results are favorable, use that in advertising.
If Ford's "paid-for" results disagreed with other supposedly non-biased sources like JD Power or Consumer Reports then I'd say you have a case. But they do agree.
Is it selective advertising? OF COURSE - that's the nature of advertising. But just because it's paid for by Ford (or any other mfr) doesn't make the results less credible unless you somehow believe the results are doctored and they're simply lying.
Comments
I haven't seen this information published (I got it from an engineer) so I won't post it verbatim. But here's the gist of how it will work:
The keyless go transmitter also contains an actual physical key in case the battery is dead. There is a holder in the glove box that puts the transmitter physically next to the receiver in case the batter is simply weak or there is some other type of interference.
Here's the neat part: you can leave the transmitter in the vehicle and then lock the vehicle using the new integrated invisible keypad on the B pillar. At that point the keyless go feature is disable so if someone breaks into the vehicle they can't start it. When you use the keypad to unlock the vehicle the transmitter is re-activated and works as normal. So you don't have to take the transmitter with you if you're going swimming, running, attending an amusement park, etc. Since no other car company uses keypads I think this feature will be a Ford/Lincoln exclusive for quite some time.
Add Sync with the new 911 capability and integrated navigation, distronic cruise and adaptive HIDs and I think it's clear that Ford is catching up and even moving ahead in some technology areas.
The MKR concept looked to be a nice size. It would be great if they could bring out a RWD sedan that is not huge. The MKS could meet the big or portly crowd's needs, and a revised MKZ could continue to satisfy those who want an entry level luxury car and don't care all that much about driving dynamics or standing out. My fear is that they will make the MKR as big or bigger than the S. I suspect we'll see another Lincoln RWD concept within a year or two.
Congratulations, datagen. I have a few questions for you already. Did you order from the website or did you work with a dealer? Have they given you an idea of when to expect delivery? What color exterior and interior?
A few weeks ago, the website showed a "wood door trim package" that I think was around $350. That option is no longer listed on the website. Do you know what the situation is with that? They should make it standard, IMO. I hope they haven't decided not to offer it. I think the door panels look pretty non-descript without something to dress them up.
The brochure mentions that some items (20" wheels, adaptive cruise) will not be available until later. Did you find other options that are not available at launch?
I will be happy to answer your questions. First off I selected what I wanted (which was everything) and at the last step before I hit the order button (at the summary) I made a snapshot and sent it to my dealer. Now here is the deal from what I understand.
The 20inch wheels, and the adaptive cruise control will not be available on the first batch. So for my order, we are looking at September October time frame. I was going to wait for the eco-boost engine, but an associate of mine said that you could get roughly the same mileage with mobil1 (15,000 version) oil and a can of duralube. Which in a sense I do not understand the need of duralube with mobil1. The wood door trim is what I ordered and it is news to me currently.
I understand within 90 days of your order est delivery date they (Lincoln/Ford) will assign a curiosity rep to inform the customer of the order, changes and approx delivery date of the vehicle. I do agree that the wood trim makes it look better and it is Ford’s conservatism all the way down the line that frustrates me at times. You mean to tell me with all the highly educated people under their flag, they cannot figure out what they can or cannot deliver?
The tease is not appreciated and even though I understand it is part of marketing, it is getting old and they should not jerk their loyal customers this way. When GM announced the CTS, even though they market it as a proto, they surprised everyone that it was available as a full production vehicle. They flew off the lots, which I would have thought Ford would have taken notes. But it is hard to see when you have those conservative glasses on. I love my Zephyr, and this tells me that Ford/Lincoln can do it when they put their minds together. They just got to work on the timing.
The story of the Mobil 1 and Duralube doesn't make any sense. Ford products already use 5W20 synthetic blend oil from the factory and Mobil 1 isn't going to make much difference. In any case, the idea of the Ecoboost is to give the power of a 4.6 V8 but with better mileage than one would get with the V8. I don't believe that anyone has said that the Ecoboost would get better mileage than a naturally aspirated V6 of equal displacement. More power, for sure, and maybe mileage almost as good, but not better.
I certainly agree with your basic assessment that Ford doesn't think too far outside of the box. They are often late to the party but, at least, their product launches have been flawless lately in terms of quality.
Next, on that site full of a bunch of idiots, as I was once told here, namely TTAC, there is (or was this morning) a picture of the 2009, no wait maybe it's the 2010, whichever year, it's a picture of the "new" Ford 500 oops - Taurus. And lemme tell ya, if it actually is the real thing, they might actually have done it right this time. It's a bit hard to tell, it's a real small picture. But it looks quite nice. At first, I though it bore a strong resemblence to the new Camry. But that I think was partly due to the color- which is a lime pie green which I see on a lot of Camrys around here. On closer inspection, this car looks a whole lot like the MKS, perhaps not surprisingly. The Gillette grille is gone pretty much and is body colored rather than plastichrome. If I were in the market for a car like the MKS, I might take a deep breath and wait for more info on this, cause the mechanicals are practically identical and if it's the look u like, you might save $10,000 on the Ford or Mercury version. Assuming there is a Mercury version. :confuse:
[edit] After reading posts on TTAC and looking at some links there, I see this car really resembles more the Mondeo and Falcon. THough there is a little pre-cowcatcher mks in there too. Overall, an improvement. At least in the front. Dont know if the profile or rear changed at all and would be willing to bet on the same boring interior. [edit]
Last, there's a story on BON and making the rounds about how Ford's quality is as good as Toyota and Honda now. Well, that's the headline, actually the other two still lead in absolute numbers, just the lead I think is within statistical margin of error. Interestingly, guess who PAID for this survey, which will be touted in Ford's new ad campaign? GO ahead, take a stab at it.
Initial quality or customer satisfaction surveys don't carry much weight with me, anyway. Some people don't spend enough time test driving or researching vehicles prior to purchase and then like to complain - or they don't have a basis for comparison because they only looked at 1 or 2 brands. Others are blinded by brand loyalty or brand reputation and will excuse problems that others would find unacceptable. I prefer to do my own research and rely on my own judgement on most things automotive.
As an owner of a 2008 Taurus, and as one who rents a lot of different vehicles, I have no problem believing that the Taurus would be a segment leader in customer satisfaction. I have never driven a car that exceeded my expectations more than this one. Bring on the new body style so it has the looks to match its other virtues!
I forgot to tell you I ordered it in the wood trim and the exterior color of red (I guess mid life crises car). I have read where some are confused on a person ording a vehicle and have not drove it. Well to understand this, you have to be a Ford guy. I have had Ford vehicles for most of my life and I have never had one time where any of those vehicles failed to start or break down on the side of the road. Many can claim the same with BMW’s, Audi’s, Mercedes, and even Cadillac’s so just put me in there and put Lincoln on the list as well as far as I am concern.
I also feel proud of the fact that I am support American workers, machines, and organization. Even if many of the parts may be coming from overseas, I at least can support the assembly in my own Country. Ford does not make to many bold steps like the MKS, but when they do, they make an effort to try and get it right the first time. Sometime they do not know they have it right right off the bat and more conservatisms sets in. But I do appreciate the quality and workmanship involved for the times we live in. With consumer report saying that quality has come back in American vehicles, and JDPowers checking the quality aspects as well. Even though it may have been late, at least you can’t say never.
If they are doing improvements from the Zephyr, MKZ, and MKX vehicles (from which I understand Volvo techs were involved), then I believe the MKS will be fine in time. By the way even if you order and do not like the vehicle, do not sign and walk away. By the time the dealer wants to get legal with you, they would have sold the vehicle to someone else.
Blue Oval News
The picture and associated threads were taken down at Ford's request from several websites so I think it's a safe bet that it was real. I think it's a home run if they get the interior right (similar to the Flex).
It should be - I got it from you!
Here's a direct link to the page with the little picture on it.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/new-ford-taurus-spy-shot-revealed/
Blue Oval News - used to be a site that could be counted on to skewer Ford when they did something worng. But at some point I think Ford got to the cause they're basically a marketing mouthpiece now.
"The picture and associated threads were taken down at Ford's request from several websites so I think it's a safe bet that it was real. I think it's a home run if they get the interior right (similar to the Flex). "
Wait, now"> it looks likt the new Sebring ...
I still might order one after my dealer has one that I can drive. I want to make sure that I am happy with the performance of the base engine. I also want to be sure of the interior design and option availability. Also, I would feel a bit more comfortable in negotiating price after the car is on the market for a few weeks. I have a feeling that there might be more opportunity to deal after the car is actually launched.
If the base engine leaves me cold, I will wait for the Ecoboost or move on to something else. My old LS might become an antique before Ford has a suitable replacement!
Like both you and datagen, I've always been a Ford guy. But I was once a democrat too. Having been screwed over by both these entities once too often, I am now neither.
With all due respect, and that is a lot dont misunderstand, Lincoln will never have a suitable replacement for the LS. I know, just my opinion here. But the automotive press agrees. Lincoln is over. I think I could write a pretty accurate review of the mks right now. And it wouldnt be pretty. If it was a Mercury, yeah. But waiting 4 years after the intro of the ford/merc versions of this platform for something with the same base engine (OK, what 5 more hp? Why even bother) and a pedestrian interior seems a waste. Gizmos are nice, but you dont drive a disappearing keypad.
I still dont see why u dont just get a Jag XF or even a Volvo S80. Both are now miles ahead of anything Lincoln is even thinking about. And they're both (sorta) Ford. And what makes anyone think the interior of the real mks will be any better than what's been shown on turntables at auto shows? That just doesn't seem a reasonable expectation to me. Best to ya.
Yes, both you and I could write a pretty accurate review of the MKS right now. Our reviews would be a bit different based on our tastes but both would likely be accurate. When I say a "replacement for the LS" I don't mean just like the LS. I want to upgrade the luxury, interior quality, passenger space, and acceleration above my current LS. An S80 is out of the question. The interior is spartan, there is no room in the back seat, it lacks many luxury features, and it looks just like an S60 that has been around for years. The XF is $10,000 more money than I want to spend and there is a waiting list for them so it is not an option.
I do agree with you that you don't make a luxury car just by adding gizmos. The base engine on the MKS is certainly nothing special. The show car interior that I saw was not as upscale as a Taurus Limited. All of these things concern me and are the reasons that I haven't ordered one. When I do finally see and drive a production model, I will give it a chance to impress. If it doesn't, it is on to Plan B.
By the way, my wife's Taurus does exceed my LS in interior quality, room, and acceleration. I just couldn't live with the D-L shifter, mundane appearance, and lack of telescoping steering wheel. At least the MKS fixes those shortcomings.
You are basing a lot on that blurry picture, Gregg. I agree it looks great from the angle we see. I am not so sure the proportions are much different than the current Taurus. The roof seems flatter so it doesn't look as bubble-topped as the current Taurus. The MKS roof is flatter, too.
Whatever they do, the upcoming Taurus will look better than the current one. Some have said the wrecked Taurus that is at some of the car shows looks better than an unwrecked version!
The MKS of course it better than the current Taurus, but it is still too tall and bulky looking, less than graceful for its length. The hood and A pillars are well done and the shoulders are ok. It is the roofline and the swollen trunk area. While a definite improvement over the 08 Taurus, it isn't as integrated a design as it could have been. We have to remember though that the basic MKS shape has been set in stone for a long time now. The designers at Ford have thankfully moved beyond the fat tall sedan look that they delusionally thought would take the world by storm.
Well, we're all young and stupid once!
OK, I'll stop trying tomake you the XF guinea pig. I'm thinking I might finally be ready to replace my LS when the first XFs come off lease ...
S80 - yeah, it does look like S60. It's got a lotta gizmos though and has a chassis one step beyond D3. But if it dont excite you ...
"When I do finally see and drive a production model, I will give it a chance to impress. If it doesn't, it is on to Plan B." Buick?
Being a Ford guy really does cramp my style, though. There are a number of competitive makes that would suit me fine if I wasn't so dam* loyal. I like Ford products but I will not buy one unless it is competitive in its market segment. Right now, the only segments in which Ford is really competitive is full-size mainstream sedan (Taurus) and sporty coupe (Mustang GT). The Fusion is decent in its segment but is in need of the changes coming for the 2010 model year. Actually, the Mustang is in need of changes, too, but it currently has no real competition.
2010 is shaping up to be pretty exciting - significantly changed Taurus, Mustang, and Fusion along with the Ecoboost MKS. I will only have about 125,000 miles on my LS by then!
To tell you the truth, my dealer had one and secrtly let me have it for the weekend. I do not know where he got it and some of the features were not activated yet, but I loved the feel and handling of it. I believe the 3.7 is all I would ever need. Of course it was not the color I wanted inside or out but the feel was great. Nice to have power sterring, and the camera for backing up was a nice feature as well.
I guess my critics out there can understand the ording of it now.
Nope.
The local dealer with whom I have always had a good relationship has changed owners and now just sell Kias. I contacted another dealer and, at first, they didn't act like they had ever heard of an MKS. Finally, they indicated that they wouldn't have one until July. Now they keep sending me stupid emails asking "are you still interested in an MKX"?
Yeah, but how's the dealer gonna explain that 47 yr old guy locked in the credit office over the weekend?
"The local dealer with whom I have always had a good relationship has changed owners and now just sell Kias. I contacted another dealer and, at first, they didn't act like they had ever heard of an MKS. Finally, they indicated that they wouldn't have one until July. Now they keep sending me stupid emails asking "are you still interested in an MKX"? "
Ha - well-trained Lincoln marketing types, eh? BTW, my Lincoln dealer of choice also sells Kias.
And somehow I'm having prblems believing the story about a test drive in a mks this early, unless datagen is in Detroit? Or his real name is Ford? This is pretty unheard of. At least to this old hick.
Very funny, jeyhoe! Young whipper-snappers like you ought to have more respect for your elders!
Well we have two posts now from people who have checked out the MKS at their dealers. I just called another local dealer and talked with a Sales Manager. He seemed pretty up-to-speed on the MKS but said they wouldn't have one until July or August.
I guess I'm stuck in the past on new car releases. Never heard of them releasing pre-production cars to dealers. Apologies to datagen.
I have since had a chance to not only sit in, but also take a short drive in a press preview unit that was being used for photo shoots and auto media drives. This promotional unit was also a pre-production unit, just bolted together with a little more TLC so that it's closer to final production quality. Units like this are also used for emissions testing, crash testing, endurance testing, as well as for promo purposes. Definate quality improvement over the show car, and nearly final production quality; needless to say, I was again very impressed with the car in general. The Tuxedo Black paint is exquisite, and I really liked the Cashmere interior; but I'm really anxious to see that Olive Ash Wood, which only comes with the Light Camel interior. I wasn't able to really put my foot on it, but the car felt good on acceleration and had a very good ride quality. And while I would not say it was lackluster at all, I would say it could very well benefit from the Ecoboost engine. I drive an '06 Audi A6 4.2 Quattro (which I think has spoiled me somewhat), but I also own an '05 Lincoln Town Car Signature L (for entertaining my clients in) and my wife has an'08 Mercury Mariner Hybrid (which she loves). Now while the MKS doesn't quite stack-up to my Audi, it's definitely a better handling and higher quality car than my Town Car. But it's not designed to be what my Town Car was designed to be (and I'm very happy with my Town Car). Though I will say that the MKS is significantly closer to my Audi in character than to my Town Car. It doesn't quite match-up in quality and feel (there's something missing that goes down to the DNA level), but it's also not a $65k+ car either, so I guess there's a value story in there somewhere. I will say this: put the Ecoboost engine in it and keep the price close to $50k for a loaded-up unit (and boy, this thing has plenty of toys available), and Lincoln will have a real winner in their deck. At 75-80% of the cost of the cost of a new Audi A6, BMW 5-Series, Cad STS, Lexus G-Series or M/Bnz E-Class, I think the MKS stands a good chance of earning a few conquest sales. But the key is, Lincoln has to consistently deliver 95+% of the quality those cars offer, with 105+% of the toys & gadgets, at 85% or less of their price. From what I see, it looks as though Lincoln may have found that recipe with the MKS. :surprise:
A lot of interesting comments lately about MKS, both in this forum and throughout the media. And it's just getting started. Lincoln did a good job of creating interest and stoking the fire. Wait til the car gets here, I believe it's gonna take off and be a real winner for Lincoln. It's about time, cause they need it, badly. Bye the way, Lincoln will start shipping the MKSs in June. Some dealers may even see their first ones before June is out. Now Lincoln is just starting the early info leaks on their new MKT, which is due in the dealerships by late-spring or early-summer of 2009. Another beautiful vehicle that's very well done. This one moves the departure from being a Ford division clone even further down the road. It's an absolutely startlingly beautiful vehicle which I think is going to be another winner for Lincoln. And now, if only they'd decide to go on and make the MKR (which I hear they're working on a version of) and the RWD replacement for the Town Car (based on the Aussie platform), Lincoln could be off to the races with some real contenders. I hope so, because I'm a real Lincoln fan.
Yet due to my experience in other organizations, I bet the logistical folks had already told management. Between them and marketing nobody listened and results is what we are seeing now. A slap like this across the face from a manufacture like Ford towards it loyal Lincoln customers may mean lower sales across the line. I hope they will see that to please customers is to provide more as a surprise, which would be a great thing to do at launch time. To many times in the past companies like Ford depends on the public’s amnesia to get them through.
These are challenging times and you need every advantage over the other guy you can get. I have seen many times when a company sits back on their laurels once they feel they "Have Arrived". A costly thing to do especially by the time you find out what you did wrong, you have missed the time to make any corrections.
If Ford is to survive, they must do the following:
1. Diversify
2. Insure strong communications amongst its customers
3. Continue to push the GREEN
4. Continue to push the QUALITY
5. Advertise more of not only the product, but also the people making and using them
6. Bring back the "Job One" slogan
7. Advance the training and retooling of not only the products, but the employees, customers, and public as well
8. Provide additional support of sold products (upgrades, customization, etc)
Now some of these I know is beyond Ford's ability. There is just too much conservatism (fear) to take steps as bold as these. But I believe that there comes a time when there is more at stake here than just money. It is survival and if Ford is going to survive, bold steps like these are not just a chance; they are a requirement for existence.
It's also been proven that the IQS results tend to track very well with the Vehicle Dependability Surveys that Power produces. Ford has 2 problems relative to this report:
Ford's best vehicles (Fusion, Milan, MKZ) in terms of quality will not be eligible for the VDS results until next year because it only surveys 3 yr old models. The models in this year's survey will be 2005 models.
If you look at Ford as a brand, they have a much larger percentage of trucks (real trucks, not Ridgelines) and real SUVs than the import brands (same is true of Chevy). Trucks and SUVs have always had more quality issues than cars (even the imports) so this hurts Ford and Chevy in the overall quality standings. This is one reason why Mercury as a brand always does better than Ford.
The fact is that Ford's quality has improved dramatically while Toyota's has clearly dropped. And Ford SHOULD be touting that in their advertisements. And anyone that doesn't believe that needs to take off their blinders.
Being a long time Ford customer I have seen quite an improvement. Good as Toy’s and Honda’s? I believe the jury may be still out on this cause I have had Honda’s as well. I will say that if they are not neck and neck, then I believe the gap is closing, quite rapidly if I may say so.
All this boils down to ATD. The best one with it will be favored. Consumers seem to know quality when they see or feel it.
"Drive one" is a good tag line because many Ford products do drive very well and are even best in class in some areas. The comparison ads between the Fusion, Accord, and Camry were great because they showed where the Fusion shines. The Taurus could be a good candidate for comparison to others due to its superior room, ride, quiet, and price.
"Just as good as" doesn't impress me at all!
Well said, Bruce. And the sad thing is that they're NOT just as good, unless you're a statistician and consider the 'margin of error'. If u look at the graph, and u can on BON, Ford is very plainy 3rd, behing Toy and Hon. The margin of error could just as well put the other two FARTHER AHEAD of Ford. It's ridiculous. That they are using this to say as good as is desperation and borders on unethical. So I guess it's a great job by Farley then, marketing wise. "say it if u can get away with it" is what passes for morality with marketers. And who's gonna call him on it but me?
In the past couple of years, I have probably had half a dozen Camrys as rentals. Every single one of them had a problem as far as I am concerned. Squeaky creaks in the dash and "B" pillar were common. More irritating is an engine so gutless or a transmission so confused that they will downshift if you happen to drive into a gust of wind or up the slightest incline. Apparently, Camry owners don't consider these "problems."
Sometimes, I think these surveys say more about the buyer than it does the car.
I hope the MKS is at leas as good as my 2003 LS V-8 or I will not even consider it.
Regards,
OW
Here's my opinion, take it at that.
The MKS is a more stylish looking car outside. Nice lines and flow. The LS however has a more classic look that I think will stand the test of time. But I do like the mks look.
The interior of the mks is still an unknown quantity. From the pix I've seen, it looks no better than the LS, which was not at the top of it's class interior-wise either. Some say or think the production models will have better interiors. Personally I doubt it. I think the interior is a done deal. But then I doubted that dealers had pre-pro mkses to drive and 2 posters have told me I'm wrong on that.
The big deal of course is how it drives and what's under it. As u probably know, the s is FWD. The LS of course is RWD. Also, the LS was close to 50-50 weight distribution with the V8 being, IIRC 52-48 and the V6 51-49. That's a big deal handling-wise and, along wth RWD, puts the LS pretty much out of the S' league for handling. Yeah, get an AWD mks and it may be better balanced and certainly will handle better than the FWD model and be better than the LS in rain or snow. But I think you get my point.
It really depends on what u like about your LS. If it's the handling etc, you may need to look elsewhere (Infiniti? BMW? Jaguar?) for a replacement.
Just one man's opinion.
Regards,
OW
Gotta be fair though - much smaller vehicle than LS. Bound to be a snappier handler. I remember the LS was tested to outhandle the 5-series, which is almost as big as the LS. Of course, the test that made this claim was paid for by Ford
Regards,
OW
All companies do these types of benchmark comparisons. They need it to gauge where they are at relative to the competition and, if the results are favorable, use that in advertising.
If Ford's "paid-for" results disagreed with other supposedly non-biased sources like JD Power or Consumer Reports then I'd say you have a case. But they do agree.
Is it selective advertising? OF COURSE - that's the nature of advertising. But just because it's paid for by Ford (or any other mfr) doesn't make the results less credible unless you somehow believe the results are doctored and they're simply lying.