"Gaining interior volume by height is a double-edged sword."
Too true. When I was looking, the car I liked best by styling and functionality, and even looks to some extent, was the Suzuki Aerio (or whatever it's called). Looks were nice enough, noise was ok enough (although critics hit hard on that in comparison), but it gained a *lot* of extra space by being the tallest sub-compact out there.
And while it took a hit in MPG, it noticably took a hit in handling as well. I don't demand that my car handle like a go-cart, but I do want to feel in control of it around a curve, and, well, I'm sure the height lead to some feelings of looser handling than other cars (to speak charitably).
A shame, really, because otherwise it's a great-seeming value.
An xA isn't "tall" by any stretch of the imagination. In my bare feet, the xA's roof comes just up to my heart level. So this argument simply doesn't wash IMO, although it is a valid argument for some types of vehicles.
Fit over Civic? Simple....versatility. If you can get a mountain bike inside a Civic AND put two chaise lounges on top of that, without use of any tools, send us a PHOTO!!
(actually did that last week in an xA, and I think the Fit is even roomier inside).
Fit vs. Accord: Those numbers don't look right, do they?. A totally de-contented Accord would be at least $4,000 more than a stripper Fit or am I doing something wrong here?
Mazda3 is a Compact, not a subcompact. Its Euro Focus platform origin is almost midsized. The sucess of the new compacts like Mazda3 (and Civic and Corolla) is part of the reason why the subs have difficulty finding general market acceptence. The prices are practically the same if the subs have to be held to the comparable content level.
How small are these chaise lounges (and the bike)? 33cu.ft. is 33cu.ft.
Fits are sold at $14.5k full MSRP even without dealer markup. Accord VP typically sells for $15.5k in real life, and it is not strippo.
BTW, "tallness" refers to the height to wheelbase ratio. Most cars used to be 50% or so (both 1993 Accord and 2000 BMW 5er were almost exactly 50%, despite the two being more than half a decade apart and from different makes and made for entirely different market segments; most other cars were like that too). With cars getting taller in the last decade or so, mainstream cars like Accord, Civic and Camry have grown to 53-54% or so. BMW 3 series has stayed at 51%. xA on the other hand is way outside the range at 64%, more like an SUV than a car, in terms of stability . . . the 64% ratio is actually higher than my Highlander.
One thing "wrong" with the subcompacts is that many of them are only sold as strippo to barely above stippo.
Outside of the Chevy Aveo SV (under 10K no A/C, auto, power windows, power locks and the like) is there any car that can be called a "strippo"? All the others I see have A/C power windows and locks and other nice features.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
As an avid mountain biker, I definitely understand the versatility of a hatchback as a valid reason for buying a Fit or xA. At this stage, a comparison between a Fit and an Accord is not valid. The Fit is still in the introduction stage. Over time, the differential in price will increase and I expect the Fit to retain reasonably strong sales. The "problem" I have with the Fit is that it is still too heavy. Although the mpg is better than pretty much everything else on the market, it still doesn't get the gas mileage of even the early 1990's Civic hatchbacks. MPG should go up, not down, over time.
I like hatches,too . . . hencce my perplexity with Honda dropping Civic hatchbacks. It's just a more useful format reglardless what hobby one has. Both my cars are five-doors.
I certainly think Fit price will come down, fortunately, and unfortunately the content level will go down too, IMHO. Right now the invoice price is $14k for an automatic (most cars are sold with automatic); that's very high for an entry car. A lot of decontenting is ahead if Honda is to bring invoice price down.
The bottom line is something like this: it takes at 20% difference in interior volume to jump a vehicle size class. That translates roughly 6% difference in each dimension (cube-root of 1.2). That 6% difference in linear dimension also translates to 12% difference in sheet metal. In other words, every time a car gets downsized, the buyer and manufacturer have to work out the math whether it's worth losing 20% interior volume to save 12% in price. A lot of accessories, like CD player, lights, power doors and windows, and vehicle assembly labor cost do not even scale with size at all; they stay constant as parts count stay constant. That's why once it gets to Compact size and below, downsizing rapidly runs out steam, and decontenting becomes necessity if there's to be a viable price at all.
A lot of the weight gain comes from structural reinforcement and safety features. Disc brakes, ABS, airbags, door safety beams and reinforced passenger cage all add to weight.
"Civic price is roughly 15% less than Accord, comparably equipped (meaning interior finish and accessories). That's about right for the difference between size classes. That's why I said Fit needs to be about 30% less expensive than Accord (15% less than Civic) to find real sizable market. That means decontenting."
Fit is, in fact, 15% less than Civic in comparably equipped models. And I don't know where you think you are going to get an Accord for $16,5 with the same equipment as the Fit Sport (your $1000 difference remark). The VP has a lousy 2-speaker stereo and optional A/C. No security system, no spoiler, and some rather ugly plastic wheel covers instead of the Fit's alloys. And no cruise, I think?
Ummmm.....your point was? :-P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"The compacts of today (Civic, mazda 3, Corolla in some ways) have gotten a bit bigger, but have gotten so good, that it is hard to justify the sub class"
Yeah, but there are so few hatchbacks available!
As for strippo to just above strippo, that is the largest source of my disgruntlement with the manufacturers right now. Fit could easily sell in another trim above Sport, with a moonroof, bigger rims, and perhaps NAV as an option.
And Yaris, forget Yaris. Toyota is treating it exactly like the bargain basement stripper they seem to think the market expects of a car in this class. Sort of like a self-fulfilling prophecy! :-)
We need more of the Versa and Mini sort, and I think people would begin to see more of the attraction of these cars. The xA was a very good first step, but that was two years ago. Now, someone needs to take the next step.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
No, I didn't say I was in a subcompact, or if I did anywhere, I mispoke. It's a compact just like its former competition 325iT. I'd be just as happy if it were a tad smaller though.
The IS platform is now verging on mid-size, though, and therefore is of very little interst to me anymore, other than the hatch concept I referred to earlier. Remember, I was looking at the A3 as a replacement?
I think brightness may be partially correct about my fuel economy hypocrisy, though. You see, over the past weekend, I spent quality seat time in my BIL's S6 Avant; the kind you just don't get on a test drive. I should've pulled the trigger on the S4 Avant (the other Audi in my life). I just should have, plain and simple. And now I'm convincing myself day by day that I will go that way. I was a fool not to.
So that's what, 16 city and something like 21 on the freeway? So I'll be a pig eventually. I still won't take up near the space, nor block anyone's view of anything anywhere...
"Yeah, but there are so few hatchbacks available!"
You put your finger on a major market problem IMO, Nippon. Other than crossovers and SUVs, finding door number five (or three for that matter, though five is better I think) is a still major problem in this country, especially in a competent road car. That's what wrong with the picture.
"We need more of the Versa and Mini sort, and I think people would begin to see more of the attraction of these cars. The xA was a very good first step, but that was two years ago. Now, someone needs to take the next step."
I'm not sure how much of a market there is for miniturized luxury cars. Mini's fuel economy is worse than the compacts like Civic, Corolla, and Matrix; some cases even worse than Ford Focus, which is almost a midsize car. Even the standard-bearer midsize Accord and Camry get gas mileage comparable to Mini's. Getting something like Mini really does come down to ego trip . . . all this time berating the SUV monster and their alleged ego-driven immorality is really a wrestle with the monster within ;-)
With all that zipping in and out of traffic, I'm sure an S4 takes up much more road space than a comformist midsize SUV. I'm sure that big hunking V8 getting less than 20mpg (gas guzzling tax territory??) is all necessary.
"Getting something like Mini really does come down to ego trip..."
You can't possibly have driven one, then.
Mini is fashion and nostalgia to be certain, but it's also a blast to drive and sensible shoes; something neither a 4-banger Accord nor Camry can lay claim to in any way.
The SUV (full-size, as I said many times) is still a monster all on it's own...
A blast to drive has no more rightful claim on wasting fuel than having a cushy ride in a livingroom on wheels does . . . probably less safe to other drivers too. There is nothing sensible about spending close to $20k on a subcompact.
So, basically four-banger Accords and Camrys not only waste fuel, like a Mini, but are also asleep-at-the-wheel boring to drive. Not to mention about as stylish as soggy toast...
It does go to show however all that talks about getting a subcompact to save the planet is nonsense . . . follow what I say, not what I do; my fun is more important than your transportational needs. Some, in fact most, people do need midsize cars; that's why they are called midsize cars.
I spent just over 24,000 on my MINI Cooper S with premium package, cold weather package, sport package(minus the sport wheels as they are big and heavy) and leatherete.
I put nearly 30,000 very happy miles on that car in about two years and sold it for 21,500.
Best handling car production car I have ever driven and great gas mileage.
Lets see anyone else equal that resale with any other vehicle.
Not when a replacement with some 30% more power is in the works. Besides, 67% value retention is a far cry from the number that you just gave previously; 67% of 24k is $16k! Also, autoleaseguide is the same source that cost banks billions of dollars on underwriting leases because they consistently over-estimated residual on European cars.
Residual values are not necessarily wholesale values. It's just a number autoleaseguide came up with, and historically cost the banks so much money holding the bags that the banks are disregarding autoleaseguide nowadays. The depreciation in the first two years should be much greater than the third. 67% estimate may well be poor economy if one has to pay MSRP upfront . . . real retail price can only go lower, and when that happens, no amount of waving autoleaseguide in the buyer's face is going to matter.
I'm not arguing against that some may find Mini exactly what they want . . . some may find Escalade exactly what they want. To say that either should be embraced by the mainstream car buyer is just wee bit proposterous.
I think we are witnessing arguing for the sake of arguing!
Just go try to buy a used Mini. There has never been a motor vehicle with better resale (except MAYBE the VW diesels, and of course classic and exotic cars that actually APPRECIATE), and that continues today. Believe it or not.
I would say I have been one of the more vocal advocates for subcompacts here, and I would venture to speak for those of us supporting them to say that NONE OF US HAVE EVER MEANT TO IMPLY THAT SUBCOMPACTS WILL SAVE THE WORLD! And until you got into this thing, brightness, no-one had made SUVs a point of contention. The two are irrelevant to each other. Shifty was merely making sme random musings, and they got expanded and exploded like a bomb in the thread!
As for this:
"There is nothing sensible about spending close to $20k on a subcompact."
What an absurd statement. Just as absurd as if I said there is nothing sensible about spending close to $30K on a fully loaded Accord (leather, V-6, NAV, the works).
We all buy what we like, and not every car-buying decision makes tons of logical sense. I have never suggested otherwise. I have merely suggested that because of the loss of common sense that I mentioned to boaz, subcompacts could be a very good, even irrational and just plain fun, choice for many people who are not even considering them due to the outdated stereotypes Americans have about them.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
How true. Even I have fallen into the trap now and again. I did see a very nice Mazda 3 Hatch the other day. But when looking at cars I have avoided the hatch name much like the dreaded mini van. But when you mentioned it some time ago I realized my Jeep Cherokee was a Hatch. My Dodge RamCharger was a hatch and the PT is a hatch. Calling it something else took the red flag off. And what happened when Honda re-introduced the Civic SI Hatch? It tanked. I don't know if some words can be salvaged. Sub Compact has to lose the Sub. Hatch sounds cheep, station wagon is out. It is hard to get a bad taste out of your mouth and it is hard to get bad memories out of our heads. Hatches are not the same as they were, but no one seems to care. Mini Vans are not just for soccer moms, but when a man looks at one everyone looks for his car seat and wedding ring. What we are calling sub compacts is hardly what we would have called a sub compacts twenty years ago. Still, when we close our eyes!!!! What did the Echo turn out to be, a car for retired people living in trailers. Where is the Yaris headed? Looks to have gained the same people. Will the Fit make it? Who knows with the Gameboy generation? Just whatever you do don't tell them the car was designed for them. Outdated stereotypes? Maybe, but they are alive and well and Madison avenue knows it.
have you heard when the 2007 Scion xA will be popping onto Scion car lots? Shouldn't it be pretty soon?
I want to see if they build the new Scion xA to look like the tall Toyota Ractis "wagon", or make a totally new world order Scion xA for 2007. As usual Toyota isn't telling anyone anywhere anything about it, which is kinda goofy.
Oh, these cool little subcompacts. They are all there is to choose from. The Scion xA and tC, the Kia Rio LX sedan and the Kia Rio5. I'm wavering between the Scion tC and the Scion xA or the Kia Rio twins as to which car to buy next.
As long as it's a subcompact. Gotta be a cool, gas miserly subcompact with a low, low price. Nice tires and wheels can be great additions to these little cars.
Shifty, remind me what color you picked for your Scion xA again, if you would. I'm thinking Polar White for the xA and Classic SIlver Metallic for a Scion tC. For the Kia twins I'd go for silver on the LX sedan and Orange for the Rio5 hatchwagon. Also, did you keep stock tires on yours, and what kind of stock tire does Scion put on the xA? I've forgotten.
Gotta be a good handling, little subcompact for me. The Kia Rio5 or the Scion xA are the two front-runners here.
If I hadn't bought my house or had bought my house a few years earlier and had more slush fund money I would have spent nearly 40,000 dollars on a subcompact recently.
One of our sister stores had a 2006 Lotus Elise in Titanium Gray with only 6,500 miles on it.
It had reached the end of its shelf life and they were going to blow it out for 38,000 dollars or so.
"There is nothing sensible about spending close to $20k on a subcompact."
I'll admit that it doesn't make sense to me personally, but we all have different needs and wants. The world don't move to the beat of just one drum. What might be right for you might not be right for some. :shades:
(1) Mini has had great value retention as per centage of MSRP in the past (partly because early buyers were paying over MSRP). That however is no guarantee of high value retention for current buyers three years down the road. Just like VW New Beetle, the first few years the value retention was terrific, some even made money selling after driving their cars for a few months to a year . . . but check out VW New Beetle resale now.
(2) I was not the one who first brought up SUV here. The Navigator was brought up by someone else, and that predated my mention of SUV. SUV is the bogeyman whipping boy here, and needs no prompting from me.
(3) If you equate spending $30k on an Accord with spending $20k on a Mini then we are in agreement. There is nothing absurd about saying $30k is way too much to spend on a loaded Accord. Lether, V-6, Nav and the works, i.e. EX-V6 can be for $26.5 before the current $750 incentive, and it has no further options. So spending $30k on that same car is indeed not sensible.
I actually agree that car buying can be a subjective decision. A choice like Mini has to be grounded on subjective appreciation of the driving/ride experience and the ego stroke the buyer gets. The choice can not possibly be justified either on transportational need or fuel saving grounds . . . there are plenty choices that offer better fuel mileage and carry more passenger and cargoes, and cost less, not to mention maintenance hassle. Feel free to enjoy your Mini choice . . . just stop engaging in moral grand-standing when it comes to others' vehicle choices. There is nothing morally superior about a choice like Mini.
And how many delta's out from the main stream would that decision be? BTW, IIRC, there's that old saying about someone parting company with their money soon enough ;-) Buying a house near the peak of a multi-decade cycle is certainly not a good sign of independent judgement unswayed by hypes.
Well as you do not know my fianacial situation I don't see how you can figure that out.
Cost of my house in total with the tax benifits minus the car payment on the MINI since I sold it is about the same as the apartment I was renting and I just did not feel like renting anymore.
I bought my house right the woman that owned it just lost her husband and just had to get out of the house as there were too many painful memories there. I bought it at about 20,000 grand under market value.
On topic:
As the garage is kind of short my old demo disco did not fit inside it and I got tired of averaging 13 mpg. I am driving a freelander right now untill our wholesaler finds me a nice little japanesee sub compact to drive which will be nice. Biggest perk of my job is getting a free car where the only thing I pay for is Gas.
$34K to buy a full-size sedan with no outward visibility and gas-slurping tendencies to the tune of less than 20 mpg (Chrysler 300C).
$40K+ on a full-size pick-up with which the majority of drivers will never tow nor put anything in the bed that wouldn't have fit in a Chrysler minivan, ALSO gas-slurping to the tune of 15-16 mpg (take your pick of the full-sizers with the optional gas engine)
close to $40K on a loaded minivan from one of the Japanese companies, because you just love leather and electronics THAT MUCH.
well over $10K (I believe) on a motorcycle, which will carry NO cargo or passengers AT ALL, and on which you will be far more at risk of life and limb statistically speaking.
Because car-buying decisions are so subjective (and more emotional than logical usually), it isn't fair to call any of these buyers ABSURD. Ditto the $20K subcompact buyer. There is a woman here at work who spent $32K on a Ford Escape Limited for goodness' sake! I came close to calling that one absurd, but the same rationale applies as my other examples.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Cost of my house in total with the tax benifits minus the car payment on the MINI since I sold it is about the same as the apartment I was renting and I just did not feel like renting anymore.
Also, while the housing bubble may be popping, it's not consistent. Some areas have been cooling for awhile now, while some are still seeing ridiculous price escalations. Meanwhile, other areas have just never caught on. It's going to vary from region to region.
And in the long run you're still probably better off buying, even at the top of a bubble, if you're planning on staying there awhile. Rents will increase over time, but your mortgage, if it's fixed, won't. Just make sure you don't gain entry into the Chronic Homebuyer's club, because that's where you can really start blowing money! :P
So what exactly is all that noise berating SUV owners and praising the virtues of subcompacts about? If all choices are subjective and morally equal (a position that I actually tend to sympathise); well, more than sympathise because IMHO, most car purchases are very rational, that's why plebian cars still far outsell luxury cars . . . in the context of subcompacts, Mini sales can not compare to the combined volume of the myriads of plebian alternatives.
It is nice having the extra space in the garage, isn't it? Even with a compact, the extra space allows me to store my little girl's oversized foot locker and the rest of her camp gear, as well as her saddle on its rack in front of my car, still allowing circulation. Icing on the fact that above equipment is comfortably hauled about at need or whim.
The ability to park in just about any spot has certainly come in very handy from time to time, and the space-negotiating maneuverability can be worth many offerings at an altar of Mithras to be certain...
There is no such thing as a "market value" for any assets aside from current bid-ask. You can only get your bid accepted if your bid is higher than everyone else'. That applies to stocks, houses and cars (desperately trying to bring the topic back ;-) The house that I have my eyes on upgrading to just lopped off $100k (11%) on asking price by the seller in the last couple months; another off $250k (15%). Methinks the eventual "market value" on both will be even lower, so I'm sitting tight and goofing off ;-) Certainly not interested in seeing price drop happening on my dime.
The garage space saving from full size to mid size is significant because most garages are designed to be on a 23-24ft foundation, with walls taking up 1 foot, junk (everyone has that) taking up 2ft (typical shelf depth) and the door mechanism another foot, that's about 225" left for cars. With full-size vehicles coming in at 205" length, it's getting really tight (20" manuever room), so tight that the rear door probably can not open inside most garages with junk along the inside wall. A step down to Midsize (185-190") nearly double the manuever room to 35-40".
A further step down to Compacts (170-175"), increase the manuever room by another 40% to 50"-55". Still worthwhile if your garage is especially small or you have a lot things in the garage.
Even further downsizing to subcompacts (160-165") only yields 20% more manuever space to 60"-65". It's become diminishing return.
Again, again, again, I don't think anybody brought morality into the conversation.
Andre: best hedge against inflation - proven. It is never a bad time to buy it. One simply needs to position oneself for ultimate flexibility in when to sell it (or not).
NIPPON: If the A3 3.2Q had been more fun to drive than what I own, I would have paid for it. The DSG alone was almost worth the price of admission. I think loaded that MSRP was over $38K; I would have equipped it at about $37.5K (maybe less, as an integrated NAV option is sort of useless for me) and the deals were solidifying about a grand below that. Being highly gadgetized, as most new near-lux, sport-lux and lux-lux is, even without options, I would have leased it and moved on before warranty expired, as I had intended to do with the IS, and will likely still do, unless I save it for my daughter (3 years to license, Lord help me).
Comments
Too true. When I was looking, the car I liked best by styling and functionality, and even looks to some extent, was the Suzuki Aerio (or whatever it's called). Looks were nice enough, noise was ok enough (although critics hit hard on that in comparison), but it gained a *lot* of extra space by being the tallest sub-compact out there.
And while it took a hit in MPG, it noticably took a hit in handling as well. I don't demand that my car handle like a go-cart, but I do want to feel in control of it around a curve, and, well, I'm sure the height lead to some feelings of looser handling than other cars (to speak charitably).
A shame, really, because otherwise it's a great-seeming value.
Fit over Civic? Simple....versatility. If you can get a mountain bike inside a Civic AND put two chaise lounges on top of that, without use of any tools, send us a PHOTO!!
(actually did that last week in an xA, and I think the Fit is even roomier inside).
Fit vs. Accord: Those numbers don't look right, do they?. A totally de-contented Accord would be at least $4,000 more than a stripper Fit or am I doing something wrong here?
Fits are sold at $14.5k full MSRP even without dealer markup. Accord VP typically sells for $15.5k in real life, and it is not strippo.
BTW, "tallness" refers to the height to wheelbase ratio. Most cars used to be 50% or so (both 1993 Accord and 2000 BMW 5er were almost exactly 50%, despite the two being more than half a decade apart and from different makes and made for entirely different market segments; most other cars were like that too). With cars getting taller in the last decade or so, mainstream cars like Accord, Civic and Camry have grown to 53-54% or so. BMW 3 series has stayed at 51%. xA on the other hand is way outside the range at 64%, more like an SUV than a car, in terms of stability . . . the 64% ratio is actually higher than my Highlander.
Outside of the Chevy Aveo SV (under 10K no A/C, auto, power windows, power locks and the like) is there any car that can be called a "strippo"? All the others I see have A/C power windows and locks and other nice features.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I certainly think Fit price will come down, fortunately, and unfortunately the content level will go down too, IMHO. Right now the invoice price is $14k for an automatic (most cars are sold with automatic); that's very high for an entry car. A lot of decontenting is ahead if Honda is to bring invoice price down.
The bottom line is something like this: it takes at 20% difference in interior volume to jump a vehicle size class. That translates roughly 6% difference in each dimension (cube-root of 1.2). That 6% difference in linear dimension also translates to 12% difference in sheet metal. In other words, every time a car gets downsized, the buyer and manufacturer have to work out the math whether it's worth losing 20% interior volume to save 12% in price. A lot of accessories, like CD player, lights, power doors and windows, and vehicle assembly labor cost do not even scale with size at all; they stay constant as parts count stay constant. That's why once it gets to Compact size and below, downsizing rapidly runs out steam, and decontenting becomes necessity if there's to be a viable price at all.
A lot of the weight gain comes from structural reinforcement and safety features. Disc brakes, ABS, airbags, door safety beams and reinforced passenger cage all add to weight.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Fit is, in fact, 15% less than Civic in comparably equipped models. And I don't know where you think you are going to get an Accord for $16,5 with the same equipment as the Fit Sport (your $1000 difference remark). The VP has a lousy 2-speaker stereo and optional A/C. No security system, no spoiler, and some rather ugly plastic wheel covers instead of the Fit's alloys. And no cruise, I think?
Ummmm.....your point was? :-P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Yeah, but there are so few hatchbacks available!
As for strippo to just above strippo, that is the largest source of my disgruntlement with the manufacturers right now. Fit could easily sell in another trim above Sport, with a moonroof, bigger rims, and perhaps NAV as an option.
And Yaris, forget Yaris. Toyota is treating it exactly like the bargain basement stripper they seem to think the market expects of a car in this class. Sort of like a self-fulfilling prophecy! :-)
We need more of the Versa and Mini sort, and I think people would begin to see more of the attraction of these cars. The xA was a very good first step, but that was two years ago. Now, someone needs to take the next step.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The IS platform is now verging on mid-size, though, and therefore is of very little interst to me anymore, other than the hatch concept I referred to earlier. Remember, I was looking at the A3 as a replacement?
I think brightness may be partially correct about my fuel economy hypocrisy, though. You see, over the past weekend, I spent quality seat time in my BIL's S6 Avant; the kind you just don't get on a test drive. I should've pulled the trigger on the S4 Avant (the other Audi in my life). I just should have, plain and simple. And now I'm convincing myself day by day that I will go that way. I was a fool not to.
So that's what, 16 city and something like 21 on the freeway? So I'll be a pig eventually. I still won't take up near the space, nor block anyone's view of anything anywhere...
You put your finger on a major market problem IMO, Nippon. Other than crossovers and SUVs, finding door number five (or three for that matter, though five is better I think) is a still major problem in this country, especially in a competent road car. That's what wrong with the picture.
"We need more of the Versa and Mini sort, and I think people would begin to see more of the attraction of these cars. The xA was a very good first step, but that was two years ago. Now, someone needs to take the next step."
Agreed. Totally.
http://www.herbchambers.com/plugins/upload/advertisement-
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including AC, power windows/locks and CD player.
You can't possibly have driven one, then.
Mini is fashion and nostalgia to be certain, but it's also a blast to drive and sensible shoes; something neither a 4-banger Accord nor Camry can lay claim to in any way.
The SUV (full-size, as I said many times) is still a monster all on it's own...
Jimmy
figure $3K more for the Accord over the Fit, if you shop til you drop and bargain like a crazed weasel.
Good points. :P
I put nearly 30,000 very happy miles on that car in about two years and sold it for 21,500.
Best handling car production car I have ever driven and great gas mileage.
Lets see anyone else equal that resale with any other vehicle.
Circumstances change. I doubt anyone buying Cooper S today can expect nearly as good a value retention in two years as you did.
See right here.
If you want a feature packed sub-compact that is fun to drive and gets great gas mileage the MINI is the one to get.
Smart decision.
Just go try to buy a used Mini. There has never been a motor vehicle with better resale (except MAYBE the VW diesels, and of course classic and exotic cars that actually APPRECIATE), and that continues today. Believe it or not.
I would say I have been one of the more vocal advocates for subcompacts here, and I would venture to speak for those of us supporting them to say that NONE OF US HAVE EVER MEANT TO IMPLY THAT SUBCOMPACTS WILL SAVE THE WORLD! And until you got into this thing, brightness, no-one had made SUVs a point of contention. The two are irrelevant to each other. Shifty was merely making sme random musings, and they got expanded and exploded like a bomb in the thread!
As for this:
"There is nothing sensible about spending close to $20k on a subcompact."
What an absurd statement. Just as absurd as if I said there is nothing sensible about spending close to $30K on a fully loaded Accord (leather, V-6, NAV, the works).
We all buy what we like, and not every car-buying decision makes tons of logical sense. I have never suggested otherwise. I have merely suggested that because of the loss of common sense that I mentioned to boaz, subcompacts could be a very good, even irrational and just plain fun, choice for many people who are not even considering them due to the outdated stereotypes Americans have about them.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It is hard to get a bad taste out of your mouth and it is hard to get bad memories out of our heads. Hatches are not the same as they were, but no one seems to care. Mini Vans are not just for soccer moms, but when a man looks at one everyone looks for his car seat and wedding ring. What we are calling sub compacts is hardly what we would have called a sub compacts twenty years ago. Still, when we close our eyes!!!! What did the Echo turn out to be, a car for retired people living in trailers. Where is the Yaris headed? Looks to have gained the same people. Will the Fit make it? Who knows with the Gameboy generation? Just whatever you do don't tell them the car was designed for them. Outdated stereotypes? Maybe, but they are alive and well and Madison avenue knows it.
I want to see if they build the new Scion xA to look like the tall Toyota Ractis "wagon", or make a totally new world order Scion xA for 2007. As usual Toyota isn't telling anyone anywhere anything about it, which is kinda goofy.
Oh, these cool little subcompacts. They are all there is to choose from. The Scion xA and tC, the Kia Rio LX sedan and the Kia Rio5. I'm wavering between the Scion tC and the Scion xA or the Kia Rio twins as to which car to buy next.
As long as it's a subcompact. Gotta be a cool, gas miserly subcompact with a low, low price. Nice tires and wheels can be great additions to these little cars.
Shifty, remind me what color you picked for your Scion xA again, if you would. I'm thinking Polar White for the xA and Classic SIlver Metallic for a Scion tC. For the Kia twins I'd go for silver on the LX sedan and Orange for the Rio5 hatchwagon. Also, did you keep stock tires on yours, and what kind of stock tire does Scion put on the xA? I've forgotten.
Gotta be a good handling, little subcompact for me. The Kia Rio5 or the Scion xA are the two front-runners here.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
For me that doesn't matter as I cannot fit in the thing.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
One of our sister stores had a 2006 Lotus Elise in Titanium Gray with only 6,500 miles on it.
It had reached the end of its shelf life and they were going to blow it out for 38,000 dollars or so.
I'll admit that it doesn't make sense to me personally, but we all have different needs and wants. The world don't move to the beat of just one drum. What might be right for you might not be right for some. :shades:
(1) Mini has had great value retention as per centage of MSRP in the past (partly because early buyers were paying over MSRP). That however is no guarantee of high value retention for current buyers three years down the road. Just like VW New Beetle, the first few years the value retention was terrific, some even made money selling after driving their cars for a few months to a year . . . but check out VW New Beetle resale now.
(2) I was not the one who first brought up SUV here. The Navigator was brought up by someone else, and that predated my mention of SUV. SUV is the bogeyman whipping boy here, and needs no prompting from me.
(3) If you equate spending $30k on an Accord with spending $20k on a Mini then we are in agreement. There is nothing absurd about saying $30k is way too much to spend on a loaded Accord. Lether, V-6, Nav and the works, i.e. EX-V6 can be for $26.5 before the current $750 incentive, and it has no further options. So spending $30k on that same car is indeed not sensible.
I actually agree that car buying can be a subjective decision. A choice like Mini has to be grounded on subjective appreciation of the driving/ride experience and the ego stroke the buyer gets. The choice can not possibly be justified either on transportational need or fuel saving grounds . . . there are plenty choices that offer better fuel mileage and carry more passenger and cargoes, and cost less, not to mention maintenance hassle. Feel free to enjoy your Mini choice . . . just stop engaging in moral grand-standing when it comes to others' vehicle choices. There is nothing morally superior about a choice like Mini.
Cost of my house in total with the tax benifits minus the car payment on the MINI since I sold it is about the same as the apartment I was renting and I just did not feel like renting anymore.
I bought my house right the woman that owned it just lost her husband and just had to get out of the house as there were too many painful memories there. I bought it at about 20,000 grand under market value.
On topic:
As the garage is kind of short my old demo disco did not fit inside it and I got tired of averaging 13 mpg. I am driving a freelander right now untill our wholesaler finds me a nice little japanesee sub compact to drive which will be nice. Biggest perk of my job is getting a free car where the only thing I pay for is Gas.
$40K+ on a full-size pick-up with which the majority of drivers will never tow nor put anything in the bed that wouldn't have fit in a Chrysler minivan, ALSO gas-slurping to the tune of 15-16 mpg (take your pick of the full-sizers with the optional gas engine)
close to $40K on a loaded minivan from one of the Japanese companies, because you just love leather and electronics THAT MUCH.
well over $10K (I believe) on a motorcycle, which will carry NO cargo or passengers AT ALL, and on which you will be far more at risk of life and limb statistically speaking.
Because car-buying decisions are so subjective (and more emotional than logical usually), it isn't fair to call any of these buyers ABSURD. Ditto the $20K subcompact buyer. There is a woman here at work who spent $32K on a Ford Escape Limited for goodness' sake! I came close to calling that one absurd, but the same rationale applies as my other examples.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Also, while the housing bubble may be popping, it's not consistent. Some areas have been cooling for awhile now, while some are still seeing ridiculous price escalations. Meanwhile, other areas have just never caught on. It's going to vary from region to region.
And in the long run you're still probably better off buying, even at the top of a bubble, if you're planning on staying there awhile. Rents will increase over time, but your mortgage, if it's fixed, won't. Just make sure you don't gain entry into the Chronic Homebuyer's club, because that's where you can really start blowing money! :P
The ability to park in just about any spot has certainly come in very handy from time to time, and the space-negotiating maneuverability can be worth many offerings at an altar of Mithras to be certain...
A further step down to Compacts (170-175"), increase the manuever room by another 40% to 50"-55". Still worthwhile if your garage is especially small or you have a lot things in the garage.
Even further downsizing to subcompacts (160-165") only yields 20% more manuever space to 60"-65". It's become diminishing return.
Andre: best hedge against inflation - proven. It is never a bad time to buy it. One simply needs to position oneself for ultimate flexibility in when to sell it (or not).
NIPPON: If the A3 3.2Q had been more fun to drive than what I own, I would have paid for it. The DSG alone was almost worth the price of admission. I think loaded that MSRP was over $38K; I would have equipped it at about $37.5K (maybe less, as an integrated NAV option is sort of useless for me) and the deals were solidifying about a grand below that. Being highly gadgetized, as most new near-lux, sport-lux and lux-lux is, even without options, I would have leased it and moved on before warranty expired, as I had intended to do with the IS, and will likely still do, unless I save it for my daughter (3 years to license, Lord help me).