What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

hpmctorque · August 2010

Smart, or not? According to today's issue of The Wall Street Journal ((B4), Smart "sales fell from 24,000 in 2008 to about 14,000 in 2009 and are down 61%this year through July." The market has spoken.

nippononly · August 2010

Yeah, they sold the 40,000 there were buyers for when it was introduced, and now they are done. There is a Smart dealership I go by regularly that was boarded up about a month ago.....end of the road.

Of course, those are really microcars. I am still hopeful that we will see a surge in true B-class cars (Yaris, Fit, Fiesta, Mazda2, Mini, etc) in the next year or two as we finally get a decent selection to choose from.

Did I mention the CRZ has ARRIVED? Went to see it last night, amid a fresh spate of reviews (LA Times for one) that really disliked it. Looks good, like the looks and the interior. Then I discovered that the moonroof I had assumed would be available on the EX in fact is not. Could be almost a deal-breaker for me. Does have PZEV smog rating and lots of cargo space behind the front seats (officially its 25 cu ft, but it looks big enough for small kids to sit back there, if only there were seats instead of a deep well). 31/37 mpg rating with the 6-speed, sticker of $21,5 for the EX stick (which gets the rather nice subwoofer stereo out of the Civic SI - wow, how must that sound in such a tiny car?), no NAV. Hmmm....I wish it had a moonroof or a removable roof, the roof panel is just about the right size to do either. It was after hours, so I will have to go back this weekend to drive it.

ateixeira · August 2010

I like the Mazda2 also, but smaller engine and it's not more efficient? It should be. I wonder if Ford simply tried harder with the Fiesta.

bumpy · August 2010

The current 2 dates back to 2007, so it's closing in on the end of its model cycle already.

nippononly · August 2010

With the stick it is just as efficient. With the auto, Mazda2 gets a 4-speed slushbox from the year 1985, and consequently costs $2000 less than the Fiesta, which gets a 6-speed automated manual and starts significantly higher in price.

The auto inspires none of my interest, However, apples to apples comparisons between the stick shift models finds the Mazda2 to be a bit cheaper and to handle better than the comparable Fiesta. Of course, if I want to spend close to $20K, the Fiesta is the only one of the two in which I can get a factory moonroof. :-(

Saw my first Fiesta on the road the other day, a dark blue one. I like the looks of both models. Saw my first Mazda2 on the showroom floor when I went in for an oil change on the Soob. Black, base model auto, wonder if it has sold yet.

ateixeira · August 2010

Coincidentally, a co-worker just picked hers up so I went for a quick test spin in a new Fiesta 4 door. Base model with no options except the 6 speed automatic. Color is a red/purple that looks better than it sounds, I swear.

I came away impressed. Keep in mind I like small cars, but nothing about this car makes it feel cheap. The front and rear doors, and even the hatch, close with a reassuring, solid, THUNK! IIHS just gave Fiesta Top Safety Pick designation and that comes as no surprise at all to me.

The design is the highlight for me - I love it, inside and out. I realize that's subjective, but I don't like the Yaris' center-mounted guages, plus it feels cheaper. The Fit is OK but a bit odd to me, like an insect on steriods. The Fiesta manages to be interesting without being weird.

Complaints? Let's start with those and end on a strong note.

The plastic wheel covers need to go. That's a mere alloy upgrade away, but they spoil the profile for me.

Rear seat leg room was tight, even with the front seats slide a bit forward. All the way back and you'd have no room at all, so 4 tall adults will complain loudly.

The 6 speed automatic had some minor surges that the owner complained to me about, and I felt them a little. Given it only had 70 miles and isn't broken in yet, I'm sure that'll improve. I doubt I would have noticed if she didn't complain about it, honestly.

It's missing a center armrest, though I imagine Ford would offer that from the catalog as an add-on.

The rear seats don't fold flat, either. Not a deal killer but a flaw in an otherwise thoughtful design.

Rear visibility is so-so. The back window feels sort of high to me.

The power door lock switch is in a strange location - in the center console. Go figure.

Likes/Surpises are far more numerous:

* body color mirrors fold away and add a blind spot corner (surprising)
* engine feels surprisingly peppy around town, probably good gearing
* wipers are the blade variety and add to the sleek look
* arm rest in door panel is nicely padded
* door handles are also body color (in the bad old days they'd be cheap plastic)
* carpeted mats feel upmarket and are nicely finished
* interior lights fade in and out like my Subaru, a nice touch
* gear lever feels upscale, though no manual controls on this model
* comfortable front seats
* tach in base models (I doubt Yaris has that)

Sitting in the driver's seat and hitting the gas, this didn't feel like an economy car at all. The back seat's a bit tight, and the folding mechanism could be more clever, but the sleek design and upscale touches more than make up for it.

Overall I left with a very positive impression. Fiesta would definitely make my short list if I were shopping for a city car, and I don't think it would feel like a compromise if I ended up getting one.

hpmctorque · August 2010

Please give us your impressions of how the CRZ drives, and whether its premium price is justified.

puffin1 · August 2010

I found an armrest for $279.00 OEM which seems high to me.
I priced out a Mondeo For 17000pounds and that meant $26000.00 American, no wonder we can't get a Titanium over here. The VW golf is a true HB but pricey Although seats lie flat.The Brits seem to like it,but they get 10 different engines. The Polo1.6 TDI Would cost $ 5000.00 more than A Fiesta SEL.
I don't know what they pay for petrol, maybe thats why thet get all the different cars and engines. :shades:

ateixeira · August 2010

That's a bit much for an armrest, but hopefully higher trim levels come with one standard.

Sienna lets you have 2 center consoles, but guess what retail is on the 2nd one? $529. No kidding!

andre1969 · August 2010

The power door lock switch is in a strange location - in the center console. Go figure.

That is kind of odd. I've seen that done with power windows, as a cost-cutting move. Maybe they're doing it with powe door locks as well? Putting it on the center console means you only need one switch, instead of two.

stickguy · August 2010

well, stuff like that can be pricey. And I do not think there is one in any model (since the SEL 5 door I sat in, with a 21K sticker, did not have one). Deal breaker to me, since I would not drive a car without some kind of arm rest or console to serve the purpose.

I think (based on a link posted over in the fiesta forum) that the aftermarket piece also is a console and has cupholders? If so, not as crazy a price.

Honda did the same thing when the fit came out. Nice high seating position, and nothing to rest your right arm on.

puffin1 · August 2010

I'm told that the seats in the New Focus hatch don't fold flat,but for the money it's better than a Fiesta.
Well, this is embarassing,but I tried a GTI 6speed it absorbed the bumps good and no engine noise or road noise at all.I pulled into a store and when I came out I could't figure how to get it in reverse.I kept moving the stick over to the left and kept going forward. I got out , pushed the car backwards so I could turn and drive back to the dealership.How did i know you had to press down on shifter? I could hear the engine when I was outside of car. I think they insulate the wheel wells or cabin.
Well,the dealer said to try the DSG tranny as it gets better milage anyway . I don't see how and rather shift, Six speed cars will be all gone in a decade I bet.
I'm going to wait on focus,but it better be worth the wait or GTI or TDI here I come.

alltorque · August 2010

How did i know you had to press down on shifter?

Ah, the good old "If all else fails, read the instructions", gambit.

Having driven both the current Golf and Focus, (both UK-spec), I would rate the Focus as a better ride etc than the Golf...........and I don't think I'm alone in that. However, I don't know what, if any, changes are made for the USA market so my opinion is pretty much worthless. :lemon:

puffin1 · August 2010

OK, thanks AllTorque,but what's another UK magzine beside Auto Express I can get online?
Also, what does BHP mean and you seem to have alot of cars that are 1.2 ,1.4l that are TDI's. Here in the states it's all about 0 to 60 miles an hour.A fiesta 1.6 is supposed to do 0 to 60 in 9.3 seconds I don't care. I need a hatchback that's geared right with some low end torque and wants to go like a VTEC. We have the Golf 2.5 170 hp 5spd and it's a scooter. :shades:

ateixeira · August 2010

The placement is unnatural. I would never think to look there.

Think about it - the door lock is not on the door, even though the window switches are.

Odd ergonomic mistake, but it didn't spoil the Fiesta for me, not by a long shot.

bumpy · August 2010

It's a German car thing. They like having the door controls in the center console for some reason.

bumpy · August 2010

Six-speed manuals are almost all either push-down for reverse, or have a little ring around the base of the shift knob that you pull up. Oddly, the 5-speed in the Aveo also had a pull ring.

andre1969 · August 2010

The placement is unnatural. I would never think to look there.

Think about it - the door lock is not on the door, even though the window switches are.

Odd ergonomic mistake, but it didn't spoil the Fiesta for me, not by a long shot.

Yeah, that is weird. I could sort of understand it, if they put the window switches on the center console too, but that's just odd!

stickguy · August 2010

brake horsepower.

and the window lock? maybe an oddity, but certainly not something that would sway my decision!

Probably just done to save having multiple switches, or having to have a left and right side, depending on where the steering wheel is.

window switches though take up a lot more real estate.

ateixeira · August 2010

Do Bimmers and Benzes have them there? VeeDubs?

She pointed to them and I said HUH?

Then again I've never owned a German car.

fintail · August 2010

My E55 has the power lock button high on the dash, window controls in the console. I think newer models have moved the window stuff to the doors.

ateixeira · August 2010

My Miata has the window switches on the console, but I always thought they were there to avoid getting wet.

LOL to be honest I'm not even sure where the power lock switch is, if it even has one. I just reach over or use the key.

fintail · August 2010

MB put switches in the console for decades...not sure exactly why, but when you've lived with it long enough, it seems normal. I'd worry about idiots spilling drinks and ruining the switches, but that makes an even better reason not to drink in the car. The lock switch on the dash seems pretty weird though.

igozoomzoom · August 2010

I've always heard that the location of window/lock controls in the center console or dash were to make it easier (cheaper) to build both left- and right-hand-drive models.

andre1969 · August 2010

MB put switches in the console for decades...not sure exactly why, but when you've lived with it long enough, it seems normal.

My '88 LeBaron coupe had the power window switches on the console. At first I thought it was weird, but I got used to it.

One setup I saw though, that I really didn't like, was for the PT Cruiser convertible. It had all four window switches on the console up front, and that was it. None on the passenger door, which I could understand since it was right there on the console, but also none in the back seat! I guess it's not THAT big of a deal, since it's probably not that often that there are passengers back there, and in a convertible the window's usually either all the way up or all the way down. And, a back seat passenger could probably still reach the switch on the console. Or, just ask the driver to adjust the window.

It's one of those things that wouldn't deter me from buying the car if I liked it anyway...but I really didn't like the PT convertible, to begin with!

dake · August 2010

Heh - the door lock button is in the center by the e-brake on the Echo too. I have to say I'm not really a fan of it b/c if you've put your keys away, you have to lean into the car to relock the doors vs having it right on the armrest. I understand why they did it (cost savings), but it's also kind of annoying.

stickguy · August 2010

Does not matter to me, since I always use the key fob. In 5+ years, I have never locked my Accord any other way. And keyless remote entry is one of the things I refuse to buy a car without.

ateixeira · August 2010

but I really didn't like the PT convertible, to begin with!

I test drove one. Was looking for a potential 4 seat replacement for my Miata.

I came to the same conclusion. Blind spots were absolutely horrendous with the top up. Quivery structure, raspy engine (light pressure turbo/auto). Interior was so cheap you'd think someone threw a grenade in the plastic toy section at the dollar store.

I passed, and got another Miata. I just take one kid at a time. :shades:

snakeweasel · September 2010

My Sebring convertible also doesn't have separate window controls for the back seat. But thats ok because if the tops up the windows are usually up. If it's ok to have all the windows down the top comes down. So its pretty much a moot point to have them.

snakeweasel · September 2010

I passed, and got another Miata. I just take one kid at a time.

Once when filling up the Sebring I had a guy in a Miata starting to trash talk my ragtop. I quickly responded that I couldn't own a Miata since I have more than one friend. :shades:

thegraduate · September 2010

That's hilarious! Would've loved to hear/see the reaction.

Happy 9000 everyone.

ateixeira · September 2010

I totally get the appeal of a 4 seat convertible so you can be sure it was me saying that.

We rented one in Florida way back when and squeezed 6 people in it. LOL

What I didn't like about the new ones is the rear window on the hard top models is no bigger than the soft top's.

I like the 4 door Wrangler, too, and I look forward to Nissan's convertible Murano (that'll be either totally bizarre or extremely cool, or both).

nippononly · September 2010

I actually just read three short reviews (in one article) by auto journalists that actually LIKED the CRZ!

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20100914/CARREVIEWS/100919942

I will say it's probably the most fun-to-drive hybrid that I've ever been in. The steering is incredibly fast (some may consider it twitchy), the brakes offer decent bite and pedal feel, the transmission is Honda slick and the suspension is fairly sporty.

I drove the CR-Z for three days and I think I have a handle on what it's really about: The future.

Nor does it drive like a hybrid. With the manual transmission and its nimble handling, it is engaging and dynamic on the road

But when you put it in sport mode, the car feels completely different and is a lot of fun to drive.

Despite the lack of factory moonroof, I think I am going to have to go out and drive one of these things. I have sat in it now, and it has a nice interior with a lot of nifty touches. And I love the exterior styling. I would be looking for an EX stick shift, which has a sticker of $21,5, not really much over $20K and not that high given how prices have risen.

hpmctorque · September 2010

Motor Trend did a test comparing the CR-Z with the Golf diesel, and they much prefered the Golf. Please let us know your impressions after you drive the CR-Z.

nippononly · September 2010

Diesel is 25-30% higher in price than regular unleaded all the time in my area, so that Golf would have to hit 50-55 mpg pretty consistently just to match the 40 mpg I wpould get in the CRZ. AND MAYBE IT WOULD. EITHER WAY, I know the CRZ is not everyones cup of tea.

stickguy · September 2010

well, being a 2 seater automatically makes it a niche product. Not thinking too many people would cross shop the Golf to it, but what do I know?

nippononly · September 2010

I just want a high-mpg car that also handles well and is generally fun to drive. Two seats isn't ideal for me, but neither is the weight and soft suspension of the Golf. I prefer lightweight with sharp handling.

Obviously, the Mazda2 could have much of the same goodness for about $6000 less, but now I have sat in one I think its a bit more basic than I want.

hpmctorque · September 2010

have you checked out the Fiesta?

jcihak · September 2010

Its not just the price of gas. I just traded in a Civic hybrid. Honda's IMA system is terrible and the batteries wear out too quickly. If you factor in the cost of the batteries, the Golf is much, much cheaper to operate.

ateixeira · September 2010

I presume you've driven a Fit?

I wonder if the CR-Z is more fun. Try 'em back to back.

It would be nice it Honda built a Fit Si with a tad more power.

nippononly · September 2010

I live in a CARB state, so the batteries are warranted by Honda for 10 years/150K miles. It's a requirement to get the AT-PZEV rating the CRZ has (which is another reason I am interested in one vs the LEV-rated Golf TDI).

It seems that if I am serious about checking out the competition, I need to drive it back to back with a Fit Sport, a Mini Cooper, and a Golf TDI! An odd mix. If I get some time I will try to do so. I have driven the Fit, which is a decent drive for a car at its price point, but the interior of the CRZ is way nicer (for only about $3000 more) and I am hoping the handling and off-the-line pep of the CRZ will be significantly better too.

Haven't driven the Fiesta yet, am curious to do that also. The Fiesta has the same 37 mpg highway rating the CRZ does, and of course it has the benefit of a back seat as well. Not to mention I could have a factory moonroof in an SEL for the price of the CRZ.

Reviews say the Fiesta has soft handling and numb steering. The Echo I already have has soft handling and numb steering. I don't want another 8 years of that at any price no matter how low.

ateixeira · September 2010

I drove a Fiesta but not quick enough to get an impression on those things. It had good pep off the line and I liked the interior. The back seat is a tad small, too.

Did you see that Mazda will put a high-efficiency 2.0l in the next Mazda3? That might be an option. I read it would get 40mpg highway.

accordguy0325 · September 2010

"""". I have driven the Fit, which is a decent drive for a car at its price point, but the interior of the CRZ is way nicer (for only about $3000 more) and I am hoping the handling and off-the-line pep of the CRZ will be significantly better too"""""

Having personally gone from a 2010 Fit Sport (which I had 2 months) to a 2011 CRZ base with the CVT I can honestly say the CRZ is a blast to drive in sport mode and in normal/econ modes I am averaging 42 mpg.

I find the CRZ to be more comfortable than my Fit was, and the interior / gauges are totally awesome - you will not be disappointed !

Check out my CRZ below

See more Car Pictures at CarSpace.com">

ateixeira · September 2010

Looks nice - congrats.

igozoomzoom · September 2010

I spent a day driving a new Fiesta a few weeks ago. I took my mom's Explorer in for a warranty repair (yet again) and asked if I could have a Fiesta as a loaner. It was a Fiesta SE 5-door with the 6-speed Powershift automatic, but no other options. I wasn't overly impressed, especially by the transmission. The acceleration and interior quality were better than I expected, but it was nothing special other beyond that.

The Mazda2 Touring, especially with the 5-speed manual, is actually quicker than the Fiesta with 5-speed manual and it costs quite a bit less also! "Car and Driver" just did a comparison test with the Fiesta SES 5-door, Mazda2 Touring and Honda Fit Sport, all with 5-speed manual. Despite the EPA ratings, the Mazda2 averaged 33mpg over the 1350-mile road test. The Fiesta trailed with 32mpg overall, despite having a 2mpg higher EPA city and highway rating than the Mazda.

I test drove the Mazda2 with manual and automatic and was impressed with both. The automatic is a little slower than I would want, but the manual version is quick and a lot of fun to drive!

nippononly · September 2010

I sat in the Mazda2 and quickly discovered that the pod where the shifter sits (it's halfway up the center of the dash in this car rather than on the floor) is so intrusive into the driver's area that my knee was much-too-firmly braced against it when I had my foot on the gas. It's a great shame, becaue I liked everything else about the car. Why did they make that shifter pod so needlessly big?

ateixeira · September 2010

In that case Mazda SERIOUSLY needs to re-think driver ergonomics. The complaints include:

* shift pod on Mazda2 that bugged you
* bottle holders in the doors of 2006-08 Miatas that bugged EVERYBODY
* protrusion in center console of the Mazda CX-9 that rubs my right knee

Some of those are deal-killer. You just cannot get comfortable.

I loved the Miata enough that I rigged some padding in that spot with 2-sided tape; it was unbearable without it. For 2009 they changed the door panel, acknowledging their mistake.

The CX9 was a deal killer. And the protrusion isn't even necessary, it's a styling item in silver-plastic finish. I bought a minivan instead.

C'mon Mazda, pay attention to the details! :sick:

ateixeira · October 2010

The co-worker who I helped pick a Fiesta just had her transmission fail - completely. 320 miles!

I feel awful because I recommended it.

Hopefully they replace it and warranty the new one for 100k miles.

Is this a new trans? Hasn't Ford had it around for a while in bigger cars?

stickguy · October 2010

no, the powershift (that what they call it?) is a pretty new design. Not sure how long it has been out in Europe, but this is the first use in NA. I think it is a dry clutch dual-clutch manual, instead of wet like VW uses? Or I just made that up.

Actually, 320 miles would bother me less than if it crapped out at 30K (or another early PIT like many Honda ATs). Brand new, it has to be a fluke (some defective part, or manufacturing defect), as opposed to just a poor design that wears out quickly!

nippononly · October 2010

Well, we will see via juice's friend if it was just a fluke or if the powershift is a chronic baddie. This is why I always recommend the manual. Particularly in small-engined cars like this.

What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

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