Well, I must say - this has been one of the most fascinating threads I've ever read. I actually look forward to the next time I can sit down and catch up on it.
All of my reading has confirmed my previous thoughts - buying a car is a disgusting and infuriating experience. Why in on earth MUST we "play the game" in order to purchase a car? There is no other "investment" in the world which depreciates faster or more dramatically than a new car purchase. Why can't there be a price: THE price, for a car? Why so many Variables - Time of the month/quarter etc, particular vehicle, certain color...on and on.
You fellas, and ladies, who sell cars - what's wrong with being an "order taker" You're gonna get paid, aren't you? All car buyers are NOT corporate execs. who have money to play with. Some car buyers are actually common folks, like teachers, and warehousemen. $500 is a considerable difference to pay simply because we are not as adept at "the game" as the salesman with the slicked back hair and a $750 suit, who has actually been trained to lie to and deceive the customer.
You savy car buyers - how about giving us common folks some lessons on how to not get raked over the coals by MR. $750 suit?
I thank ALL of the posters here. I am learnin' - as shocking and sad as the lessons are.
without a question the last day of the month.. the Sales Mgrs will take stupid deals if it means hitting the number, beating another store, getting a volume bonus.
Be stupid but be flexible and be ready to sit and haggle. If you really are a buyer then you likely will save several hundred to a thousand just because it's the last day.
I wonder if you read many of the foregoing posts. The process is the easiest thing in the world - if you allow it to be and do your homework. It is really not a lot different than buying a home stereo at Best Buy. I'm not kidding. With all the info available here and other places there is no reason why you cant walk in and be out in 20 min. Scions are done this way 150,000 times a year!
OTOH, have you ever considered doing business this way?
Post #377 I wrote.. Anyone who has ever sold any bulk commodities or products, steel in my case, knows that a negotiation can take all day or even months. Visit a buyer whom you know has 5A1 D&B credit, in his pit of an office, and have him scream at you for 30 min while he tells you why your product is garbage and then have him throw you out!!!! and you refuse to budge. He smiles and says 'Good, let's discuss business'. Most business is done this way - even here
In your post you wrote: the salesman with the slicked back hair and a $750 suit, who has actually been trained to lie to and deceive the customer.
Have you been to a carshowroom recently? Except for Premium lines most sales people are in their 20's, in their first real job, fresh as dew on a melon, scared to death to make a mistake, and the kicker...... making less than a 7-11 clerk. Slicked back hair? They only learned to comb their hair for this job... $750 suits? Their whole wardrobe didnt cost $750. $750 Gross is what they will make this month... and next month... then they'll quit.
This was in another thread before.
Serious question now: You see an ad in the paper for exactly the auto you want. Hot Damn great price!! You ruush down to the store and it's still there and you get it exactly as it states. Yippee. How much did the salesperson get paid on that ad vehicle?
I wonder if you read many of the foregoing posts. The process is the easiest thing in the world - if you allow it to be and do your homework. It is really not a lot different than buying a home stereo at Best Buy. I'm not kidding. With all the info available here and other places there is no reason why you cant walk in and be out in 20 min. Scions are done this way 150,000 times a year!
OTOH, have you ever considered doing business this way?
Post #377 I wrote.. Anyone who has ever sold any bulk commodities or products, steel in my case, knows that a negotiation can take all day or even months. Visit a buyer whom you know has 5A1 D&B credit, in his pit of an office, and have him scream at you for 30 min while he tells you why your product is garbage and then have him throw you out!!!! and you refuse to budge. He smiles and says 'Good, let's discuss business'. Most business is done this way - even here
In your post you wrote: the salesman with the slicked back hair and a $750 suit, who has actually been trained to lie to and deceive the customer.
Have you been to a carshowroom recently? Except for Premium lines most sales people are in their 20's, in their first real job, fresh as dew on a melon, scared to death to make a mistake, and the kicker...... making less than a 7-11 clerk. Slicked back hair? They only learned to comb their hair for this job... $750 suits? Their whole wardrobe didnt cost $750. $750 Gross is what they will make this month... and next month... then they'll quit.
This was in another thread before.
Serious question now: You see an ad in the paper for exactly the auto you want @ $13999. Hot Damn great price!! You rush down to the store and it's still there and you get it exactly as it states. WooHoo. How much did the salesperson get paid on that ad vehicle?
Why in on earth MUST we "play the game" in order to purchase a car?
I think that a better question to ask is, "Why fight it?" The tactics employed are well-established and commonplace, so you may as well accept them for what they are and use them to your advantage.
A useful book about negotiations (not specific to cars) is Herb Cohen's You Can Negotiate Anything. Very breezy and easy reading from a practical, professional negotiator, and essentially providing the same information in plain language that you'd get from an MBA-level negotiations class with jargon and muddled language. Basic lessons include:
-Adjust your tactics to match those of your opponent. -Gather information about the other side, while limiting the amount and quality information that you provide to the other side (Information is power) -Understand your opponent's motivations and timing -Use your opponent's commitment to recoup his sunk costs (i.e. desire to make his previous time and effort pay off) to your advantage -Play the game, and have fun doing it
You will have people here telling you that the dealer will readily outsmart you or figure you out, but I find that to be completely untrue if you are a savvy negotiator. (Or more to the point, he may finally catch on, but by that stage, he's too far gone to let you walk without a deal.)
The great thing about car buying is that the dealer sales/ closing systems are so remarkably consistent, and information about invoice prices, dealer incentives and holdbacks all so readily obtained, that the whole thing is very easy to figure out. Let those who erroneously believe otherwise be those who pay more than you.
I have been wondering myself if I should change my approach on the internet. Perhaps I shouldn't be asking for a quote, but making my offer.
A basic tenet of negotiation is the party who is first to name the number loses.
I don't personally think much of the internet model for the reasons shown above, but if you're going to use it, I might begin by making it clear that you are a serious buyer with the ability to close immediately, just so long as the price is right, while asking for the quote. Drop other cues that make it clear that you are for real, but you want an email quote ASAP so that you are ready to move ahead.
Given from what we've read from the dealers here, it seems that internet quotes are few and far between, but that may be worth a shot, anyway. But I'd go with KDHSpyder's point that if you go in knowledgable, going into the dealership is a better way to secure a lower price.
.... **The great thing about car buying is that the dealer sales/ closing systems are so remarkably consistent, and information about invoice prices, dealer incentives and holdbacks all so readily obtained, that the whole thing is very easy to figure out....** ===============================
Like Bobst mentioned ... golf clubs are harder to purchase than purchasing a $25,000 vehicle ..... nowadays you have hybrids, 50 different types of shafts, low-kick, mid-kick, weight differences, graphite, steel, carbon, length, swing speeds, color, grip difference, trajectory, etc, etc and the list goes on ....
But like in the car business, the same situation always falls in line -- the question is: will the customer be honest enough with the sales guy at the golf store so he can end up purchasing the right club to better his golf game - or .. is he going to tell the guy at the golf store his swing speed is 110mph when it's really 95mph and he wants a whole different club .. Not much difference in the car business Socala4 ...
Let's step back for a moment .... the reason why dealers do what they do, is to keep the customer on track and try to keep some reality into the mix .. some times the hardest part is keeping them on the $25,000 they came into to buy, not the $35,000 they think they want now.
"Most" (not all) buyers have a payoff on their current vehicle, and no matter what they've read, "most" (not all) want $1,500/$3,500 more than it's really worth ...
A good example is over at "Real World Trade-in Values" ...... people will ask me for a figure and then you'll see them 3 or 4 weeks later still over at "Prices Paid" forum pounding the boards still lookin' to get $3,000 more than they could get even if they sold it on the street .. then they wonder why they haven't made a deal after 5 dealerships - sometimes customers have to be slapped upside their head a few times ..l.o.l..
The lady in that example .. she just ended-up trading and getting inside of $200 of what I thought her RX300 was worth 6 weeks ago .. that's only because she got off her "false pride" and finally got on a *difference figure* .... "the only difference that makes a difference - IS the *difference* ... and that has nothing to do with payoffs -- because the payoff is nothing more than the "shadow or the echo of the loan" -- it has nothing to do with the value of the vehicle, zero, nada, less than one .. and taxes are paid by the buyer, but "some" (not all buyers) feel the dealers can somehow someway make them go away .. keep in mind, "most" buyers are payment buyers - not car buyers .. that said, "most buyers" probably don't have the strong credit you have .... dealers spend hours trying to explain that, sometimes days ..l.o.l...
We kid around with Bobst and his "style" ... but in reality, he's a intelligent buyer and he knows what a vehicle is worth (in and around) and he also knows what the new purchase price should be, give or take .. Mathias is also well read and does serious research and dealers loooove customers like this .. in/out, 45 minutes on a push (probably talkin' golf for 20 of those minutes) slap a tag on, cash buyer or certified check ~ thanks for stoppin' by .. next.!
You keep using the word "opponent" ..... the only time buyers and sellers become "opponents" is when the buyer (usually) hasn't done enough *proper* research .... stopping by Edmunds for 3.5 minutes and picking and choosing doesn't get it done .. that's because certain vehicles in certain area's of the country are worth more and some are worth less, new and used - and that all depends on what time of the year and how close the next season is, like ~ let's say convertibles .. they'll be doing big money up north come May thru August, come November in Boston they're dead as a hammer.
My stores sold over 17,000 vehicles last year ... if the smart intelligent buyers would have come by everyday - I could have retired a loooong time ago ....
Don't get hung up on getting the vehicle for the absolute lowest price that the dealer will sell it for on that particular day and time. You'll never know that price as there are so many variables that affect it that change frequently.....
There are few people skilled enough at negotiating to get that price. And it doesn't matter how much you read up on tactics, anything you read about, salesmen have seen. Remember, you and I do this ONCE every few years where as the sales folk do this many times daily.
The best advice I can give is to determine a price for the vehicle that is about what others are paying here, make sure you can afford it, simply go in and make an offer, AND STICK TO THAT PRICE.
Speaking of which, Terry can you get answer my post on my trade-in value of my 2001 Olds, and I promise I won't seek more than you valued wisdon *scouts honor*
A couple of things for Exploderx4 and biancar and then I will make an on topic question too.
My wifes particular hearing loss is a little unique so most things that work for other people don't work for her. Would be worth a try though. I have a customer who manages a nokia store I will go pay him a visit.
Yesterday was my day off and I am the one who sets up all of our display vehicles so that is why nothing was on our big hill. I don't like leaving stuff there over night cause there are no lights back there and I am afraid someone will damage the car. If you are sitting at the stoplight leaving the mall across from us the big hill is directly across from you. It is about 60 feet tall I would say.
Ok on topic question.
How do you feel about automated responses?
Do you want to get something sent back to right away even if it is computer generated just to confirm that the dealership got your request or would you rather wait a little while, maybe as long as one business day, and get a human response?
I think that you have all misunderstood what I was saying. It took me 15 dealers to finally find one that was honest and upfront and didn't try to play games. My point being that nearly every dealer uses the decades old methods of BS and confusion. My point is that 1 in 15 dealers are honest, upfront and don't play games.
How is it my fault that they all play games?
You want to know how bad it is out there? I actually had a salesman tell me that he has no clue what the invoice price is and has never looked at one in 15 years. The great majority of car dealers are shady. If it were not true, than there would be no need for forums such as this.
It wasn't your fault. Those "games" are standard practice in the car sales business. That's why I advise accepting it and embracing it.
If you swim in the ocean and try to swim against the tide, chances are good that you'll either struggle or drown. Go with the flow, and you'll find the process of getting to shore much easier, just so long as you know where you're going and don't take in a lot of water.
The dealers can try to claim otherwise all day long, but the typical closing method is built on a combination of confusion, shell games and half-truths, coupled to an effort to focus your attention on payments, rather than price. It is a method that has worked for decades, so they aren't going to give it up very easily.
So don't let their tactics offend you, they're simply doing what they learned to do. You don't expect a dog to meow or a cat to bark, so don't expect a dealer to simply be a completely honest straightshooter from the moment that you walk onto the lot. But he doesn't need to be a straightshooter to win your business. (I've bought cars from complete sleazeballs, and they are actually more fun to deal with than the poor newbie who probably won't be working there in two weeks, because the former will be the typical control freak who is simply convinced that he can nail you, too. It's actually very fun to watch.)
It took me 15 dealers to finally find one that was honest and upfront and didn't try to play games. My point being that nearly every dealer uses the decades old methods of BS and confusion. My point is that 1 in 15 dealers are honest, upfront and don't play games.
Did you go in looking to interview and test the salesperson or did you want to buy a car? Being on edmunds I'm assuming you did your homework and have a grip on the market conditions...so why not use the bobst method?...make an offer and if they say no leave. no small talk, no bs, no sales tactics, etc... I bet you would have been driving your new car from dealership 1 or 2...not dealership 15.
keep in mind, "most" buyers are payment buyers - not car buyers .. that said, "most buyers" probably don't have the strong credit you have .... dealers spend hours trying to explain that, sometimes days
My brother is a salesman in Memphis, TN and he and I were having this same discussion on the phone the other night. Most people are happy as long as the payment fits within their budget - or at least they think it fits into their budget. The big problem they constantly run into is that as he put it, "Memphis is the bankruptcy capitol of the world."
When someone with bad (or no) credit comes in they are not going to get financed through Ford Credit, GMAC, American Honda Finance, etc. They are going to have to go through a secondary finance company or bank and they have narrow guidelines for financing for these people. For instance many stipulate they cannot have a payment that exceeds 15% of monthly income. Thay really narrows the choices these people have and it automatically makes most of them payment shoppers. I suppose this is also the reason for the recent surge in offerings of 72 month financing.
Anyway, my point in all this is that most people have no idea how unbelievably hard these salesmen have to work trying to keep the boss happy, the customer happy, the finance manager happy, etc.
And the point my brother makes is that no one is bothered to walk into a convenience store and buy a candy bar that is making the store a profit of 35% or greater. Yet, most people think that if a car dealer makes 1% profit then they are being robbed. :confuse: :sick:
But like in the car business, the same situation always falls in line -- the question is: will the customer be honest enough with the sales guy at the golf store so he can end up purchasing the right club to better his golf game - or .. is he going to tell the guy at the golf store his swing speed is 110mph when it's really 95mph and he wants a whole different club .. Not much difference in the car business Socala4 ...
Clever answer, but obviously spun from the perspective of a dealer who won't confess to the tactics. (Even online, most of you won't admit to them.)
I do hope that Bobst is not overpaying. I find that people who try to speed up negotiations usually make this too obvious, and leave money on the table because the other side will extract a premium for that sense of urgency.
You keep using the word "opponent" ..... the only time buyers and sellers become "opponents" is when the buyer (usually) hasn't done enough *proper* research .... stopping by Edmunds for 3.5 minutes and picking and choosing doesn't get it done .. that's because certain vehicles in certain area's of the country are worth more and some are worth less, new and used - and that all depends on what time of the year and how close the next season is, like ~ let's say convertibles .. they'll be doing big money up north come May thru August, come November in Boston they're dead as a hammer.
There are very, very few cars that are so hot that the price needs to vary much, as measured by a dollar amount compared to invoice, less incentives, etc. I would not expect to get very far trying to get a great deal on a Prius (not that I'd want one), but most cars from econoboxes to luxury cars can be had with severe discounting to MSRP and prices pretty close to either side of invoice, less incentives.
The dealer will make up for that low profit on somebody else who thinks he's hip and cool because he doesn't negotiate, or who thinks he's going to get a better deal by becoming the salesman's buddy and showing him pictures of his kids.
if the smart intelligent buyers would have come by everyday - I could have retired a loooong time ago ....
Yeah, right. Nothing whatsoever prevents you from posting a price a few hundred bucks over invoice on every car on your lot. Yet you won't do it. Why you won't is fairly obvious.
This is just me, but I am not a fan of automated anything. I would rather wait 1 business day to hear back from you..or even a short personal message after 1-2 days saying you did get my email and will give me the information shortly.
I have always been for the personal touch, and I always hated getting anything boilerplate:
Thanks GOLIC, for your inquiry on THURSDAY, one of our trained staff has the perfect car GOLIC wants. We will call you soon. *eyeroll*
Again, let's keep this conversation focused on the on-line sales biz.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
Perhaps I shouldn't be asking for a quote, but making my offer.
You can do that but as a general rule the first one to name a price is at a disadvantage. You still don't know where they stand but they know where you stand. Say the dealer wants $22k for a car and you come in and offer $22.5K Guess what? you over paid.
Best to get them to make an offer first.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Wjhy should a salesperson know what the invoice on the car is? Except for the guys in my internet department, our salespeople don't have that information.
Why should that matter anyway? that makes a salesperson "shady"??
When you go to a restaurant, do you ask the server what the restaurant paid for the steak you are thinking about having?
We can beat this to death but it's always the current MARKET that determines pricing. Lots of inventory, not much demand= low prices. On cars that are in high demand and low supply, people may have to pay MSRP.
I'm upfront, honest and I don't "play games".
I would give you a great bottom line price and I'll bet you wouldn't be content. I'll bet you would smile, thank me, and rush off, armed with my price and shop it all over town!
You are in the L.A. market and that is a miserable snake pit. A lot of sleazy dealers who turn over thier sales staff once a month. Also a lot of cheap customers who gleefully pit these dealers against one another.
I guess I was one of those customers. When I lived there, I used to wonder why my salespeople could barely speak english. I used to wonder why they didn't have printed business cards. I was once handed a card with a salesman'n name crossed out and another name written in.
I was turned over to closers and "managers" who were rude and condensending.
And I have to ask...why is is, people come to Edmunds for what is supposted to be True Market Value. They bring me these sheets, wave them in my face and demand a steep discount from that??
" A good place to start" ???
Marty, I'm sorry that you are "disgruntled,angry and frustrated"
I do have to ask, however, don't you think that just maybe, you have brought a lot of this on yourself in your zeal to pay less than others have.
I do wish you well, and I thank my lucky stars I escaped L.A.
I think I'm going to bow out of this thread. not good for my high blood pressure.
Wjhy should a salesperson know what the invoice on the car is? Except for the guys in my internet department, our salespeople don't have that information.
What, they don't have Edmunds and KBB? That is freely available information that anyone can get. There is no mystery about the invoice.
When you go to a restaurant, do you ask the server what the restaurant paid for the steak you are thinking about having?
The supermarket and restaurant analogies are disingenuous.
A car purchase is the most expensive or second most expensive purchase that the average consumer will make (the most expensive for the latter being a house.) Who would buy a house without negotiating?
Car purchases are negotiated in the United States. That's the reality of cars, and dragging steakhouses into the discussion won't change this basic fact.
I ask them to call me so I can confirm what they are really looking for. I tell them I'll be happy to go over availability and our special internet pricing at that time.
Most call and a few refuse to. The ones that refuse to and demand a price get a nicely worded response from me inviting them to share whatever they do get in writing so that I can see if I can save them money.
In other words, you refuse to give a quote to customer who clicked “get a quote” button on your web site.
Don’t you think it’s a bit shady and underhanded to get customer’s personal information with a promise of a quote, and refusing to fulfill that promise?
The ones that refuse to and demand a price get a nicely worded response from me inviting them to share whatever they do get in writing so that I can see if I can save them money.
So you have no moral misgivings about stealing other salesman’s customer. Probably an honest salesman who fulfilled his promise to a customer.
The supermarket and restaurant analogies are disingenuous.
No its not, the price they pay has no bearing on the price they charge. The same with car sales, the market determines the price. High demand low supply means higher cost (you couldn't touch PT cruisers for MSRP when they first came out) while high supply and low demand means low prices. That doesn't mean you can't negotiate, just that what the dealer actually pays is pretty meaningless.
Who would buy a house without negotiating?
Many people do, it all depends of the circumstances. Say its a booming market and its a new home in a subdivision that going up. In situations like that the prices are not negotiable.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Do you have an assistant who could double up as someone who could assist you with replies, and who could let people know that you'll be getting back to them within X number of hours? That would be more personal than an auto response and send the message that you have a service-oriented approach, something that some online buyers will want.
The ones that refuse to and demand a price get a nicely worded response from me inviting them to share whatever they do get in writing so that I can see if I can save them money.
What would you do if they didn't play games like that and don't show you what they got from another dealer? I for one don't take quotes to another dealer and say "beat this". I will let them know I have other quotes but not tell them what the numbers are.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Our internet leads are first seen by someone at the main office who forwards them to the indvidual store managers. Our pre-owned/F&I guy looks over the requests and sends a quick response saying that we have gotten your request and a sales guide will be contacting your shortly.
If they asked about a specfic car and we have that exact car on the lot he will say so and give its listed price. If we don't happen to have that car he will try and estimate the avalibility of the vehicle.
The same with car sales, the market determines the price.
A poor analogy, because the "market price" is more difficult to obtain with cars than it is with steaks in a restaurant. I might pay $200 over invoice for a given car, while you pay $1,500 over for the same car because you (mistakenly) thought you had to. There may be an average price, but the standard deviation from that price is high.
In any case, you can try to confuse the situation all you like, but the fact remains:
-Invoice prices are readily available -Holdback amounts are readily available -Information about buyer incentives is readily available -Information about dealer incentives is readily available -Car sales tactics are very similar from place to place -The dealer (or at least the closer) absolutely factors in the invoice price when calculating what his minimum price is
Anyone who would deliberately ignore this information and not use it appropriately is simply asking to pay more than I would. Knock yourself out if that's your preferred method of doing business, but there are others out there who would prefer to pay less. By doing their homework and haggling effectively, they will.
The supermarket example or some variation of it is ALWAYS used by a salesman as a defense tactic. It holds no weight.
Last time I checked a bananna didn't cost $25,000. Last time I checked, there wasn't a guy standing there trying to sell me a bannana at one price because I am somewhat knowledgeable of the how much I should pay, and then turning around and selling Joe Idiot a bannana for $.25 more because he doesn't have a clue.
The supermarket prices are set and they are the same for everyone regardless of race, sex, age, education, etc..
I get the general feeling that there are the traditional two sides here. The one side is the car buyer who can't understand why there has to be so much hagle room between the price for me and the price for the next guy that walks in off of the street. Money for a transaction this large can make a drastic impact in your life. Buying a car is a lot different financialy than buying a gallon of milk.
The other side is the car dealer / salesman that can't figure out why the customer doesn't just walk in without any argument and pay MSRP for his "great product and excellent service". They can't fathom why someone would make such a fuss to take 4 or 5 hours to save $500. They wish that the customer would come in, let the salesman lead the transaction and ultimately let them help determine which car is correct for the customer. At that point they would like them to smile and pay MSRP and tell all thier friends and family what a great deal they just recieved. Heck, not only do they want that but they would also prefer that they let them add in window etching, undercoat protectant, aftermarket spoiler, extended warranty, etc.. all at a "great value".
I would take a guess that this would be the great divide between salesman and customer. If they have half a brain, each wants to maximize his profit and value on the transaction. It is just the nature of the beast that each party has to work in the opposing direction to make this happen.
Ultimatley, the customer has all the power because they hold the money.
Why in on earth MUST we "play the game" in order to purchase a car? There is no other "investment" in the world which depreciates faster or more dramatically than a new car purchase. Why can't there be a price: THE price, for a car? Why so many Variables - Time of the month/quarter etc, particular vehicle, certain color...on and on.
These kind of variables are there for a lot of retail items, but you either don't care or don't notice because the amount of money is smaller by a factor of at least 10. But here's the main reason I don't want THE price on a car: I will end up paying more. Being a savvy buyer, I can negotiate a car for less than the average schmoe (some of who are barely aware of the Internet). If the car business went to a one price deal like a gallon of milk at the supermarket, I would end up paying more to subsidize the fact that the clueless would now be paying less.
Add to that the fact that since this is so much money, people would end up haggling anyway ("the place down the street has this model on 'sale' for $100 less - can you beat that?"), so the whole THE price thing would fall apart anyway.
If you lose $50 because you didn't shop your TV around, you probably won't care. If you lose $1000 because you didn't haggle over your car price, you probably will care. High price items like cars and homes will never be a "one price" model simply because they are high priced.
The supermarket and restaurant analogies are disingenuous.
A car purchase is the most expensive or second most expensive purchase that the average consumer will make (the most expensive for the latter being a house.) Who would buy a house without negotiating?
Forget the supermarket... What about someone buying a $7k-$10k super-duper TV from Best Buy?... IIRC, markup on electronics tend to be 30%-50% (someone correct me if I'm wrong). While you might not have the exact invoice price, you know they're making a butt-load of money (thousands!) on your purchase. Why isn't there the same outrage for high-end electronics?
Why isn't there the same outrage for high-end electronics?
For one, I don't have any outrage, I'm just showing how car prices can be negotiated. If you'd like to pay more based on principle, that's perfectly within your right, and a sentiment that your local dealer will appreciate.
For another, you're talking to the wrong guy. I haggle the price of all kinds of stuff. My television was negotiated. My home theater was negotiated. (Even a seperate purchase of speaker stands and speaker wire was negotiated.) My furniture was negotiated. My suits were negotiated. When traveling abroad, I even haggled over the price of fruit and vegetables, and bottled water and umbrellas.
Practically every purchase outside of a supermarket is negotiable in America. If you don't want to haggle, that's your business, but I will, and I will pay less.
A poor analogy, because the "market price" is more difficult to obtain with cars than it is with steaks in a restaurant.
No its not, the market value of anything is determined by the buyer and the seller agreeing to a price (in a free and open market).
I might pay $200 over invoice for a given car, while you pay $1,500 over for the same car because you (mistakenly) thought you had to.
Prices for commodities change from period to period (sometimes over as little as a few minutes, watch the stock market someday) and from place to place. Just because someone paid X number of dollars for something at 10AM yesterday in San Jose doesn't mean that that same thing will sell for the same amount of money in Dallas today.
-Invoice prices are readily available
And they are totally meaningless when trying to find the retail price of a car. What the dealer paid for the car has little to do with what the dealer sells it for. Perfect example right now is the Pontiac Solstice, go to any dealer and offer them $500 over invoice and see what happens.
Anyone who would deliberately ignore this information and not use it appropriately is simply asking to pay more than I would.
I don't look at invoice, nor do I at dealer holdback or dealer incentives and I guarantee I do not pay more for a car than you would. Heck I may end up paying less
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Last time I checked a bananna didn't cost $25,000. Last time I checked, there wasn't a guy standing there trying to sell me a bannana at one price because I am somewhat knowledgeable of the how much I should pay, and then turning around and selling Joe Idiot a bannana for $.25 more because he doesn't have a clue.
To take this further, this shows a good reason why the internet model is going to make it difficult to get the very best price available.
The traditional sales process essentially goes like this: the salesmen sizes up the customer, determines his hot buttons and tolerance for overpaying, and then tries to move that customer into a deal that creates a high commission for the salesman. Along the way, the salesman will play good cop-bad cop, move the numbers around, and use ambiguity, new car smell and ego to move the buyer in his direction. And ultimately, he hopes to get you into a car without you worrying too much about the purchase price. What does the internet do? -He can't see you, making it harder to figure you out. (He can gather some intelligence, but not quite as much.) -He can't as easily control you, because you aren't physically present on his turf. -The discussion will invariably move away from intangibles to price, the one item he would prefer most to avoid discussing.
The dealers want the control that the in-person "consultation" provides. They don't want to focus on price, because price is something to be manipulated, not simply provided and delivered.
Only the high volume dealers are going to want to pursue the alternative business model, because those guys are focused on inventory turn and reducing their inventory financing costs. (The longer that a car sits on a lot, the more costly it becomes for the dealer, because he is borrowing money to hold that car in his inventory.)
The traditional and lower-volume guys will eventually give in to the low price, but they're not going to arrive there during the first round. For a smart buyer, that bottom price will be easier to obtain in person than online.
I don't look at invoice, nor do I at dealer holdback or dealer incentives and I guarantee I do not pay more for a car than you would. Heck I may end up paying less
Ah, the old ignorance-is-bliss argument.
Well, if you have no clue about the invoice, then you couldn't possibly know whether you're getting a good deal or not. I suppose wishful thinking will help soothe the ego, even if the real world results don't back it up.
(Off-topic for one sec - do a little research for "nokia neckloop cell-phone" before you go to your friend. My husband had to buy mine on-line as the local guy wasn't familiar with that particular product. Feel free to e-mail me if you want.)
Re automated responses: It doesn't bother me to get an automated response very quickly, as long as it's followed up by a real-person response. Web-site design in asking for the query is important too. When I recently sent an e-mail to VW dealers because I wanted info on the EOS, the web-site had a list of cars you could ask about, and the Eos wasn't listed. So the response came back something like "We have your query regarding the car none none and hope to make your buying experience a good one." The "none none" was because I couldn't click on what I really wanted. Kind of funny. Anyway, then I responded with what I really wanted, and got an actual human response to the second e-mail.
Also there were misspellings and grammar mistakes in the boiler-plate language, and that did not reflect well on the store. So if you use a canned response, PLEASE proof-read it! I'm more forgiving of typing mistakes when a real person is answering quickly. But something that's a canned response, that better be written correctly, at minimum.
-----
Isell, I do get a kick out of you. You're constantly harping on how customers will just take your quote and shop it around, as if that's a horrible, unethical thing to do, but you don't hesitate to ask someone to bring in some other guy's quote so YOU can beat it! Aren't you just encouraging that horrible behavior you don't want to see?
Unless you're consistently the high-priced guy, I don't see why you have such a dread of your price being shopped around. You should welcome it if you know that your prices are competitive in the area. You can either offer a good price or not; don't blame the shopper if you come out on the high side.
Nope its not the old ignorance is bliss argument. Its knowing how to shop and what the sales prices are.
Well, if you have no clue about the invoice, then you couldn't possibly know whether you're getting a good deal or not.
Knowing if you got a good deal or not is not dependent on knowing what the invoice is, there are other things involved. One car $500 under invoice is a good deal, another $5000 over invoice is a good deal. Tell me is paying $300 under invoice a good deal? Maybe maybe not. The proof of a good deal is if you can get it for less than the majority of the people, regardless of what the invoice price is.
I suppose wishful thinking will help soothe the ego, even if the real world results don't back it up.
I will guarantee you that if the two of us go out and buy a certain model car, you knowing the invoice price and me not I would get as good, maybe better deal than you.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You do know that Best Buy will negotiate on just about everything in the store except dvd's, small media, etc.. right?
My mother bought a 42'' Panasonic Plasma and was able to get the manager to drop $500 off the price and get a free cable thrown in. In addition she got all of the reward zone points as well. A day later I bought a Pioneer CD player for my car and was able to negotiate it for $20 less and get the $100 Sirius car tuner marked down to $85.
**If it takes you 15 dealers to find the best price... then I would suggest looking in the mirror for blame rather than at the dealership ...**
If you are calling visiting or emailing 15 dealers, you must be neglecting some aspect of your life, whether it be family, job, free time and the cost might be more than what its worth....
This is my personal time calculator:
1 hour of life vauled @ $75
15 dealerships visited or corresponed via phone or email average of 2 hours each.
So....
$75 x 30hrs = $2250.00
300 miles driven total going from dealer to dealer @ 35 cents per mile. (labor costs and gas is on the rise) = $105.00
so total lost $2355.00
That guy is already tanked in his car!!!!
One more question, why do internet customers ask for the best price, and I give it to them and then ask for a better price? If I give a better price than that price is not my best price so therefore I would be a dishonest salesperson. Do other Internet sales consultants have that problem?
You do know that Best Buy will negotiate on just about everything in the store except dvd's, small media, etc.. right?
Yes, I am aware of this. In fact, I negotiated the price of my last TV and stand purchase. (I can't remember if it was Best Buy or Circuit City :confuse: )
My point was that most people don't think about negotiating price at someplace like Best Buy. Most people see the price on the sticker and that's what they pay.
Cute analogy, but the only real cost you've listed is the $100 or so for gas. Unless someone is paying for your time and you are actually losing that income, how much time it takes is meaningless. Test-driving new cars can be fun; I'd be hard pressed to argue that I don't get my money's worth of enjoyment out of driving the cars I'm interested in.
Besides, you could do the equation the other way around: spent two hours with each of 15 dealers, got $2250 worth of information.
While I'm all for getting the best price possible, at some point, some deals just aren't worth doing. I have found a correlation between how hard someone negotiates and the "pain in the butt" factor after the transaction. Which results in having to work the hardest for the least profitable deals, which gets old real quick. And no, the customer is not always right.
I've been in sales most of my working career, selling B2B computer/network hardware/software, advertising (ad agency), and boats.
In most instances the client/customer who beats you up the most trying to negotiate the best price is also the biggest pain in the "rear" after the sale is complete. Being the most demanding for immediate service, seemingly always looking for something wrong with the product and when something was wrong, complaining the loudest. It always seemed no matter how hard you try you could never completely make these people happy.
I've had clients that just made me cringe when I heard their voice on the phone. When I was selling boats, on the expensive cruisers we would actually celebrate the day a boat belonging an unreasonable customer went "out of warranty", because we new we wouldn't have to jump thru hoops trying to keep them happy w/o much $$ in return. That may sound harsh, but warranty work isn't profitable when the clients boat is not easily transported and is located 2 hours away and the manufacturer doesn't reimburse for travel time and pays only a fixed amount for labor.
" - Information about dealer incentives is readily available "
And where might the consumer find manufacturer to dealer incentives? I've never seen them and I know Honda uses them big time instead of manufacture to consumer incentives.
Comments
All of my reading has confirmed my previous thoughts - buying a car is a disgusting and infuriating experience. Why in on earth MUST we "play the game" in order to purchase a car? There is no other "investment" in the world which depreciates faster or more dramatically than a new car purchase. Why can't there be a price: THE price, for a car? Why so many Variables - Time of the month/quarter etc, particular vehicle, certain color...on and on.
You fellas, and ladies, who sell cars - what's wrong with being an "order taker" You're gonna get paid, aren't you? All car buyers are NOT corporate execs. who have money to play with. Some car buyers are actually common folks, like teachers, and warehousemen. $500 is a considerable difference to pay simply because we are not as adept at "the game" as the salesman with the slicked back hair and a $750 suit, who has actually been trained to lie to and deceive the customer.
You savy car buyers - how about giving us common folks some lessons on how to not get raked over the coals by MR. $750 suit?
I thank ALL of the posters here. I am learnin' - as shocking and sad as the lessons are.
Be stupid but be flexible and be ready to sit and haggle. If you really are a buyer then you likely will save several hundred to a thousand just because it's the last day.
OTOH, have you ever considered doing business this way?
Post #377 I wrote..
Anyone who has ever sold any bulk commodities or products, steel in my case, knows that a negotiation can take all day or even months. Visit a buyer whom you know has 5A1 D&B credit, in his pit of an office, and have him scream at you for 30 min while he tells you why your product is garbage and then have him throw you out!!!! and you refuse to budge. He smiles and says 'Good, let's discuss business'. Most business is done this way - even here
In your post you wrote:
the salesman with the slicked back hair and a $750 suit, who has actually been trained to lie to and deceive the customer.
Have you been to a carshowroom recently? Except for Premium lines most sales people are in their 20's, in their first real job, fresh as dew on a melon, scared to death to make a mistake, and the kicker...... making less than a 7-11 clerk. Slicked back hair? They only learned to comb their hair for this job...
This was in another thread before.
Serious question now: You see an ad in the paper for exactly the auto you want. Hot Damn great price!! You ruush down to the store and it's still there and you get it exactly as it states. Yippee. How much did the salesperson get paid on that ad vehicle?
Answer: ..........
OTOH, have you ever considered doing business this way?
Post #377 I wrote..
Anyone who has ever sold any bulk commodities or products, steel in my case, knows that a negotiation can take all day or even months. Visit a buyer whom you know has 5A1 D&B credit, in his pit of an office, and have him scream at you for 30 min while he tells you why your product is garbage and then have him throw you out!!!! and you refuse to budge. He smiles and says 'Good, let's discuss business'. Most business is done this way - even here
In your post you wrote:
the salesman with the slicked back hair and a $750 suit, who has actually been trained to lie to and deceive the customer.
Have you been to a carshowroom recently? Except for Premium lines most sales people are in their 20's, in their first real job, fresh as dew on a melon, scared to death to make a mistake, and the kicker...... making less than a 7-11 clerk. Slicked back hair? They only learned to comb their hair for this job...
This was in another thread before.
Serious question now: You see an ad in the paper for exactly the auto you want @ $13999. Hot Damn great price!! You rush down to the store and it's still there and you get it exactly as it states. WooHoo. How much did the salesperson get paid on that ad vehicle?
Answer: ..........
I think that a better question to ask is, "Why fight it?" The tactics employed are well-established and commonplace, so you may as well accept them for what they are and use them to your advantage.
A useful book about negotiations (not specific to cars) is Herb Cohen's You Can Negotiate Anything. Very breezy and easy reading from a practical, professional negotiator, and essentially providing the same information in plain language that you'd get from an MBA-level negotiations class with jargon and muddled language. Basic lessons include:
-Adjust your tactics to match those of your opponent.
-Gather information about the other side, while limiting the amount and quality information that you provide to the other side (Information is power)
-Understand your opponent's motivations and timing
-Use your opponent's commitment to recoup his sunk costs (i.e. desire to make his previous time and effort pay off) to your advantage
-Play the game, and have fun doing it
You will have people here telling you that the dealer will readily outsmart you or figure you out, but I find that to be completely untrue if you are a savvy negotiator. (Or more to the point, he may finally catch on, but by that stage, he's too far gone to let you walk without a deal.)
The great thing about car buying is that the dealer sales/ closing systems are so remarkably consistent, and information about invoice prices, dealer incentives and holdbacks all so readily obtained, that the whole thing is very easy to figure out. Let those who erroneously believe otherwise be those who pay more than you.
A basic tenet of negotiation is the party who is first to name the number loses.
I don't personally think much of the internet model for the reasons shown above, but if you're going to use it, I might begin by making it clear that you are a serious buyer with the ability to close immediately, just so long as the price is right, while asking for the quote. Drop other cues that make it clear that you are for real, but you want an email quote ASAP so that you are ready to move ahead.
Given from what we've read from the dealers here, it seems that internet quotes are few and far between, but that may be worth a shot, anyway. But I'd go with KDHSpyder's point that if you go in knowledgable, going into the dealership is a better way to secure a lower price.
Bingo.! .... maybe try some classes in social engagement ..l.o.l....
Terry.
===============================
Like Bobst mentioned ... golf clubs are harder to purchase than purchasing a $25,000 vehicle ..... nowadays you have hybrids, 50 different types of shafts, low-kick, mid-kick, weight differences, graphite, steel, carbon, length, swing speeds, color, grip difference, trajectory, etc, etc and the list goes on ....
But like in the car business, the same situation always falls in line -- the question is: will the customer be honest enough with the sales guy at the golf store so he can end up purchasing the right club to better his golf game - or .. is he going to tell the guy at the golf store his swing speed is 110mph when it's really 95mph and he wants a whole different club .. Not much difference in the car business Socala4 ...
Let's step back for a moment .... the reason why dealers do what they do, is to keep the customer on track and try to keep some reality into the mix .. some times the hardest part is keeping them on the $25,000 they came into to buy, not the $35,000 they think they want now.
"Most" (not all) buyers have a payoff on their current vehicle, and no matter what they've read, "most" (not all) want $1,500/$3,500 more than it's really worth ...
A good example is over at "Real World Trade-in Values" ...... people will ask me for a figure and then you'll see them 3 or 4 weeks later still over at "Prices Paid" forum pounding the boards still lookin' to get $3,000 more than they could get even if they sold it on the street .. then they wonder why they haven't made a deal after 5 dealerships - sometimes customers have to be slapped upside their head a few times ..l.o.l..
The lady in that example .. she just ended-up trading and getting inside of $200 of what I thought her RX300 was worth 6 weeks ago .. that's only because she got off her "false pride" and finally got on a *difference figure* .... "the only difference that makes a difference - IS the *difference* ... and that has nothing to do with payoffs -- because the payoff is nothing more than the "shadow or the echo of the loan" -- it has nothing to do with the value of the vehicle, zero, nada, less than one .. and taxes are paid by the buyer, but "some" (not all buyers) feel the dealers can somehow someway make them go away .. keep in mind, "most" buyers are payment buyers - not car buyers .. that said, "most buyers" probably don't have the strong credit you have .... dealers spend hours trying to explain that, sometimes days ..l.o.l...
We kid around with Bobst and his "style" ... but in reality, he's a intelligent buyer and he knows what a vehicle is worth (in and around) and he also knows what the new purchase price should be, give or take .. Mathias is also well read and does serious research and dealers loooove customers like this .. in/out, 45 minutes on a push (probably talkin' golf for 20 of those minutes) slap a tag on, cash buyer or certified check ~ thanks for stoppin' by .. next.!
You keep using the word "opponent" ..... the only time buyers and sellers become "opponents" is when the buyer (usually) hasn't done enough *proper* research .... stopping by Edmunds for 3.5 minutes and picking and choosing doesn't get it done .. that's because certain vehicles in certain area's of the country are worth more and some are worth less, new and used - and that all depends on what time of the year and how close the next season is, like ~ let's say convertibles .. they'll be doing big money up north come May thru August, come November in Boston they're dead as a hammer.
My stores sold over 17,000 vehicles last year ... if the smart intelligent buyers would have come by everyday - I could have retired a loooong time ago ....
Terry.
There are few people skilled enough at negotiating to get that price. And it doesn't matter how much you read up on tactics, anything you read about, salesmen have seen. Remember, you and I do this ONCE every few years where as the sales folk do this many times daily.
The best advice I can give is to determine a price for the vehicle that is about what others are paying here, make sure you can afford it, simply go in and make an offer, AND STICK TO THAT PRICE.
My wifes particular hearing loss is a little unique so most things that work for other people don't work for her. Would be worth a try though. I have a customer who manages a nokia store I will go pay him a visit.
Yesterday was my day off and I am the one who sets up all of our display vehicles so that is why nothing was on our big hill. I don't like leaving stuff there over night cause there are no lights back there and I am afraid someone will damage the car. If you are sitting at the stoplight leaving the mall across from us the big hill is directly across from you. It is about 60 feet tall I would say.
Ok on topic question.
How do you feel about automated responses?
Do you want to get something sent back to right away even if it is computer generated just to confirm that the dealership got your request or would you rather wait a little while, maybe as long as one business day, and get a human response?
How is it my fault that they all play games?
You want to know how bad it is out there? I actually had a salesman tell me that he has no clue what the invoice price is and has never looked at one in 15 years. The great majority of car dealers are shady. If it were not true, than there would be no need for forums such as this.
It wasn't your fault. Those "games" are standard practice in the car sales business. That's why I advise accepting it and embracing it.
If you swim in the ocean and try to swim against the tide, chances are good that you'll either struggle or drown. Go with the flow, and you'll find the process of getting to shore much easier, just so long as you know where you're going and don't take in a lot of water.
The dealers can try to claim otherwise all day long, but the typical closing method is built on a combination of confusion, shell games and half-truths, coupled to an effort to focus your attention on payments, rather than price. It is a method that has worked for decades, so they aren't going to give it up very easily.
So don't let their tactics offend you, they're simply doing what they learned to do. You don't expect a dog to meow or a cat to bark, so don't expect a dealer to simply be a completely honest straightshooter from the moment that you walk onto the lot. But he doesn't need to be a straightshooter to win your business. (I've bought cars from complete sleazeballs, and they are actually more fun to deal with than the poor newbie who probably won't be working there in two weeks, because the former will be the typical control freak who is simply convinced that he can nail you, too. It's actually very fun to watch.)
Did you go in looking to interview and test the salesperson or did you want to buy a car? Being on edmunds I'm assuming you did your homework and have a grip on the market conditions...so why not use the bobst method?...make an offer and if they say no leave. no small talk, no bs, no sales tactics, etc... I bet you would have been driving your new car from dealership 1 or 2...not dealership 15.
My brother is a salesman in Memphis, TN and he and I were having this same discussion on the phone the other night. Most people are happy as long as the payment fits within their budget - or at least they think it fits into their budget. The big problem they constantly run into is that as he put it, "Memphis is the bankruptcy capitol of the world."
When someone with bad (or no) credit comes in they are not going to get financed through Ford Credit, GMAC, American Honda Finance, etc. They are going to have to go through a secondary finance company or bank and they have narrow guidelines for financing for these people. For instance many stipulate they cannot have a payment that exceeds 15% of monthly income. Thay really narrows the choices these people have and it automatically makes most of them payment shoppers. I suppose this is also the reason for the recent surge in offerings of 72 month financing.
Anyway, my point in all this is that most people have no idea how unbelievably hard these salesmen have to work trying to keep the boss happy, the customer happy, the finance manager happy, etc.
And the point my brother makes is that no one is bothered to walk into a convenience store and buy a candy bar that is making the store a profit of 35% or greater. Yet, most people think that if a car dealer makes 1% profit then they are being robbed. :confuse: :sick:
Clever answer, but obviously spun from the perspective of a dealer who won't confess to the tactics. (Even online, most of you won't admit to them.)
I do hope that Bobst is not overpaying. I find that people who try to speed up negotiations usually make this too obvious, and leave money on the table because the other side will extract a premium for that sense of urgency.
You keep using the word "opponent" ..... the only time buyers and sellers become "opponents" is when the buyer (usually) hasn't done enough *proper* research .... stopping by Edmunds for 3.5 minutes and picking and choosing doesn't get it done .. that's because certain vehicles in certain area's of the country are worth more and some are worth less, new and used - and that all depends on what time of the year and how close the next season is, like ~ let's say convertibles .. they'll be doing big money up north come May thru August, come November in Boston they're dead as a hammer.
There are very, very few cars that are so hot that the price needs to vary much, as measured by a dollar amount compared to invoice, less incentives, etc. I would not expect to get very far trying to get a great deal on a Prius (not that I'd want one), but most cars from econoboxes to luxury cars can be had with severe discounting to MSRP and prices pretty close to either side of invoice, less incentives.
The dealer will make up for that low profit on somebody else who thinks he's hip and cool because he doesn't negotiate, or who thinks he's going to get a better deal by becoming the salesman's buddy and showing him pictures of his kids.
if the smart intelligent buyers would have come by everyday - I could have retired a loooong time ago ....
Yeah, right. Nothing whatsoever prevents you from posting a price a few hundred bucks over invoice on every car on your lot. Yet you won't do it. Why you won't is fairly obvious.
I have always been for the personal touch, and I always hated getting anything boilerplate:
Thanks GOLIC, for your inquiry on THURSDAY, one of our trained staff has the perfect car GOLIC wants. We will call you soon. *eyeroll*
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
You can do that but as a general rule the first one to name a price is at a disadvantage. You still don't know where they stand but they know where you stand. Say the dealer wants $22k for a car and you come in and offer $22.5K Guess what? you over paid.
Best to get them to make an offer first.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Why should that matter anyway? that makes a salesperson "shady"??
When you go to a restaurant, do you ask the server what the restaurant paid for the steak you are thinking about having?
We can beat this to death but it's always the current MARKET that determines pricing. Lots of inventory, not much demand= low prices. On cars that are in high demand and low supply, people may have to pay MSRP.
I'm upfront, honest and I don't "play games".
I would give you a great bottom line price and I'll bet you wouldn't be content. I'll bet you would smile, thank me, and rush off, armed with my price and shop it all over town!
I guess I was one of those customers. When I lived there, I used to wonder why my salespeople could barely speak english. I used to wonder why they didn't have printed business cards. I was once handed a card with a salesman'n name crossed out and another name written in.
I was turned over to closers and "managers" who were rude and condensending.
And I have to ask...why is is, people come to Edmunds for what is supposted to be True Market Value. They bring me these sheets, wave them in my face and demand a steep discount from that??
" A good place to start" ???
Marty, I'm sorry that you are "disgruntled,angry and frustrated"
I do have to ask, however, don't you think that just maybe, you have brought a lot of this on yourself in your zeal to pay less than others have.
I do wish you well, and I thank my lucky stars I escaped L.A.
I think I'm going to bow out of this thread. not good for my high blood pressure.
What, they don't have Edmunds and KBB? That is freely available information that anyone can get. There is no mystery about the invoice.
When you go to a restaurant, do you ask the server what the restaurant paid for the steak you are thinking about having?
The supermarket and restaurant analogies are disingenuous.
A car purchase is the most expensive or second most expensive purchase that the average consumer will make (the most expensive for the latter being a house.) Who would buy a house without negotiating?
Car purchases are negotiated in the United States. That's the reality of cars, and dragging steakhouses into the discussion won't change this basic fact.
Not all shoppers are "invoice buyers".
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Most call and a few refuse to. The ones that refuse to and demand a price get a nicely worded response from me inviting them to share whatever they do get in writing so that I can see if I can save them money.
Most (not all) of these people end up calling me.
Don’t you think it’s a bit shady and underhanded to get customer’s personal information with a promise of a quote, and refusing to fulfill that promise?
The ones that refuse to and demand a price get a nicely worded response from me inviting them to share whatever they do get in writing so that I can see if I can save them money.
So you have no moral misgivings about stealing other salesman’s customer. Probably an honest salesman who fulfilled his promise to a customer.
Any other thoughts on auto response vs human response.
No its not, the price they pay has no bearing on the price they charge. The same with car sales, the market determines the price. High demand low supply means higher cost (you couldn't touch PT cruisers for MSRP when they first came out) while high supply and low demand means low prices. That doesn't mean you can't negotiate, just that what the dealer actually pays is pretty meaningless.
Who would buy a house without negotiating?
Many people do, it all depends of the circumstances. Say its a booming market and its a new home in a subdivision that going up. In situations like that the prices are not negotiable.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Do you have an assistant who could double up as someone who could assist you with replies, and who could let people know that you'll be getting back to them within X number of hours? That would be more personal than an auto response and send the message that you have a service-oriented approach, something that some online buyers will want.
What would you do if they didn't play games like that and don't show you what they got from another dealer? I for one don't take quotes to another dealer and say "beat this". I will let them know I have other quotes but not tell them what the numbers are.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If they asked about a specfic car and we have that exact car on the lot he will say so and give its listed price. If we don't happen to have that car he will try and estimate the avalibility of the vehicle.
A poor analogy, because the "market price" is more difficult to obtain with cars than it is with steaks in a restaurant. I might pay $200 over invoice for a given car, while you pay $1,500 over for the same car because you (mistakenly) thought you had to. There may be an average price, but the standard deviation from that price is high.
In any case, you can try to confuse the situation all you like, but the fact remains:
-Invoice prices are readily available
-Holdback amounts are readily available
-Information about buyer incentives is readily available
-Information about dealer incentives is readily available
-Car sales tactics are very similar from place to place
-The dealer (or at least the closer) absolutely factors in the invoice price when calculating what his minimum price is
Anyone who would deliberately ignore this information and not use it appropriately is simply asking to pay more than I would. Knock yourself out if that's your preferred method of doing business, but there are others out there who would prefer to pay less. By doing their homework and haggling effectively, they will.
Last time I checked a bananna didn't cost $25,000. Last time I checked, there wasn't a guy standing there trying to sell me a bannana at one price because I am somewhat knowledgeable of the how much I should pay, and then turning around and selling Joe Idiot a bannana for $.25 more because he doesn't have a clue.
The supermarket prices are set and they are the same for everyone regardless of race, sex, age, education, etc..
I get the general feeling that there are the traditional two sides here. The one side is the car buyer who can't understand why there has to be so much hagle room between the price for me and the price for the next guy that walks in off of the street. Money for a transaction this large can make a drastic impact in your life. Buying a car is a lot different financialy than buying a gallon of milk.
The other side is the car dealer / salesman that can't figure out why the customer doesn't just walk in without any argument and pay MSRP for his "great product and excellent service". They can't fathom why someone would make such a fuss to take 4 or 5 hours to save $500. They wish that the customer would come in, let the salesman lead the transaction and ultimately let them help determine which car is correct for the customer. At that point they would like them to smile and pay MSRP and tell all thier friends and family what a great deal they just recieved. Heck, not only do they want that but they would also prefer that they let them add in window etching, undercoat protectant, aftermarket spoiler, extended warranty, etc.. all at a "great value".
I would take a guess that this would be the great divide between salesman and customer. If they have half a brain, each wants to maximize his profit and value on the transaction. It is just the nature of the beast that each party has to work in the opposing direction to make this happen.
Ultimatley, the customer has all the power because they hold the money.
These kind of variables are there for a lot of retail items, but you either don't care or don't notice because the amount of money is smaller by a factor of at least 10. But here's the main reason I don't want THE price on a car: I will end up paying more. Being a savvy buyer, I can negotiate a car for less than the average schmoe (some of who are barely aware of the Internet). If the car business went to a one price deal like a gallon of milk at the supermarket, I would end up paying more to subsidize the fact that the clueless would now be paying less.
Add to that the fact that since this is so much money, people would end up haggling anyway ("the place down the street has this model on 'sale' for $100 less - can you beat that?"), so the whole THE price thing would fall apart anyway.
If you lose $50 because you didn't shop your TV around, you probably won't care. If you lose $1000 because you didn't haggle over your car price, you probably will care. High price items like cars and homes will never be a "one price" model simply because they are high priced.
As long as you are on this earth, you have to deal with reality. The car buying process is reality. You can either:
1) be miserable every time you buy a car, or
2) learn how to enjoy buying a car, or
3) use another means of transportation.
For the rest of your life, you are going to be doing one of those three things. The choice is yours.
A car purchase is the most expensive or second most expensive purchase that the average consumer will make (the most expensive for the latter being a house.) Who would buy a house without negotiating?
Forget the supermarket... What about someone buying a $7k-$10k super-duper TV from Best Buy?... IIRC, markup on electronics tend to be 30%-50% (someone correct me if I'm wrong). While you might not have the exact invoice price, you know they're making a butt-load of money (thousands!) on your purchase. Why isn't there the same outrage for high-end electronics?
For one, I don't have any outrage, I'm just showing how car prices can be negotiated. If you'd like to pay more based on principle, that's perfectly within your right, and a sentiment that your local dealer will appreciate.
For another, you're talking to the wrong guy. I haggle the price of all kinds of stuff. My television was negotiated. My home theater was negotiated. (Even a seperate purchase of speaker stands and speaker wire was negotiated.) My furniture was negotiated. My suits were negotiated. When traveling abroad, I even haggled over the price of fruit and vegetables, and bottled water and umbrellas.
Practically every purchase outside of a supermarket is negotiable in America. If you don't want to haggle, that's your business, but I will, and I will pay less.
No its not, the market value of anything is determined by the buyer and the seller agreeing to a price (in a free and open market).
I might pay $200 over invoice for a given car, while you pay $1,500 over for the same car because you (mistakenly) thought you had to.
Prices for commodities change from period to period (sometimes over as little as a few minutes, watch the stock market someday) and from place to place. Just because someone paid X number of dollars for something at 10AM yesterday in San Jose doesn't mean that that same thing will sell for the same amount of money in Dallas today.
-Invoice prices are readily available
And they are totally meaningless when trying to find the retail price of a car. What the dealer paid for the car has little to do with what the dealer sells it for. Perfect example right now is the Pontiac Solstice, go to any dealer and offer them $500 over invoice and see what happens.
Anyone who would deliberately ignore this information and not use it appropriately is simply asking to pay more than I would.
I don't look at invoice, nor do I at dealer holdback or dealer incentives and I guarantee I do not pay more for a car than you would. Heck I may end up paying less
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
To take this further, this shows a good reason why the internet model is going to make it difficult to get the very best price available.
The traditional sales process essentially goes like this: the salesmen sizes up the customer, determines his hot buttons and tolerance for overpaying, and then tries to move that customer into a deal that creates a high commission for the salesman. Along the way, the salesman will play good cop-bad cop, move the numbers around, and use ambiguity, new car smell and ego to move the buyer in his direction. And ultimately, he hopes to get you into a car without you worrying too much about the purchase price.
What does the internet do?
-He can't see you, making it harder to figure you out. (He can gather some intelligence, but not quite as much.)
-He can't as easily control you, because you aren't physically present on his turf.
-The discussion will invariably move away from intangibles to price, the one item he would prefer most to avoid discussing.
The dealers want the control that the in-person "consultation" provides. They don't want to focus on price, because price is something to be manipulated, not simply provided and delivered.
Only the high volume dealers are going to want to pursue the alternative business model, because those guys are focused on inventory turn and reducing their inventory financing costs. (The longer that a car sits on a lot, the more costly it becomes for the dealer, because he is borrowing money to hold that car in his inventory.)
The traditional and lower-volume guys will eventually give in to the low price, but they're not going to arrive there during the first round. For a smart buyer, that bottom price will be easier to obtain in person than online.
Ah, the old ignorance-is-bliss argument.
Well, if you have no clue about the invoice, then you couldn't possibly know whether you're getting a good deal or not. I suppose wishful thinking will help soothe the ego, even if the real world results don't back it up.
Re automated responses: It doesn't bother me to get an automated response very quickly, as long as it's followed up by a real-person response. Web-site design in asking for the query is important too. When I recently sent an e-mail to VW dealers because I wanted info on the EOS, the web-site had a list of cars you could ask about, and the Eos wasn't listed. So the response came back something like "We have your query regarding the car none none and hope to make your buying experience a good one." The "none none" was because I couldn't click on what I really wanted. Kind of funny. Anyway, then I responded with what I really wanted, and got an actual human response to the second e-mail.
Also there were misspellings and grammar mistakes in the boiler-plate language, and that did not reflect well on the store. So if you use a canned response, PLEASE proof-read it! I'm more forgiving of typing mistakes when a real person is answering quickly. But something that's a canned response, that better be written correctly, at minimum.
-----
Isell, I do get a kick out of you. You're constantly harping on how customers will just take your quote and shop it around, as if that's a horrible, unethical thing to do, but you don't hesitate to ask someone to bring in some other guy's quote so YOU can beat it! Aren't you just encouraging that horrible behavior you don't want to see?
Unless you're consistently the high-priced guy, I don't see why you have such a dread of your price being shopped around. You should welcome it if you know that your prices are competitive in the area. You can either offer a good price or not; don't blame the shopper if you come out on the high side.
Nope its not the old ignorance is bliss argument. Its knowing how to shop and what the sales prices are.
Well, if you have no clue about the invoice, then you couldn't possibly know whether you're getting a good deal or not.
Knowing if you got a good deal or not is not dependent on knowing what the invoice is, there are other things involved. One car $500 under invoice is a good deal, another $5000 over invoice is a good deal. Tell me is paying $300 under invoice a good deal? Maybe maybe not. The proof of a good deal is if you can get it for less than the majority of the people, regardless of what the invoice price is.
I suppose wishful thinking will help soothe the ego, even if the real world results don't back it up.
I will guarantee you that if the two of us go out and buy a certain model car, you knowing the invoice price and me not I would get as good, maybe better deal than you.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
My mother bought a 42'' Panasonic Plasma and was able to get the manager to drop $500 off the price and get a free cable thrown in. In addition she got all of the reward zone points as well. A day later I bought a Pioneer CD player for my car and was able to negotiate it for $20 less and get the $100 Sirius car tuner marked down to $85.
If you are calling visiting or emailing 15 dealers, you must be neglecting some aspect of your life, whether it be family, job, free time and the cost might be more than what its worth....
This is my personal time calculator:
1 hour of life vauled @ $75
15 dealerships visited or corresponed via phone or email average of 2 hours each.
So....
$75 x 30hrs = $2250.00
300 miles driven total going from dealer to dealer @ 35 cents per mile. (labor costs and gas is on the rise) = $105.00
so total lost $2355.00
That guy is already tanked in his car!!!!
One more question, why do internet customers ask for the best price, and I give it to them and then ask for a better price? If I give a better price than that price is not my best price so therefore I would be a dishonest salesperson. Do other Internet sales consultants have that problem?
Looks pretty doubtful.
Yes, I am aware of this. In fact, I negotiated the price of my last TV and stand purchase. (I can't remember if it was Best Buy or Circuit City :confuse: )
My point was that most people don't think about negotiating price at someplace like Best Buy. Most people see the price on the sticker and that's what they pay.
Besides, you could do the equation the other way around: spent two hours with each of 15 dealers, got $2250 worth of information.
It's a meaningless number either way.
I've been in sales most of my working career, selling B2B computer/network hardware/software, advertising (ad agency), and boats.
In most instances the client/customer who beats you up the most trying to negotiate the best price is also the biggest pain in the "rear" after the sale is complete. Being the most demanding for immediate service, seemingly always looking for something wrong with the product and when something was wrong, complaining the loudest. It always seemed no matter how hard you try you could never completely make these people happy.
I've had clients that just made me cringe when I heard their voice on the phone. When I was selling boats, on the expensive cruisers we would actually celebrate the day a boat belonging an unreasonable customer went "out of warranty", because we new we wouldn't have to jump thru hoops trying to keep them happy w/o much $$ in return. That may sound harsh, but warranty work isn't profitable when the clients boat is not easily transported and is located 2 hours away and the manufacturer doesn't reimburse for travel time and pays only a fixed amount for labor.
And where might the consumer find manufacturer to dealer incentives? I've never seen them and I know Honda uses them big time instead of manufacture to consumer incentives.