Make Me a Better (Online) Car Salesman!

rroyce10 · February 2006

... **I thought that this website was about cars.**

That's what we been telling you for 50 posts .. I know it's difficult for you, but you keep making up your own analogies as you go .... knock knock.

Terry.

golic · February 2006

I took a page out of Bobst method. Emailed one of the internet guys who responded to my quote just with a monthly lease number.

Now this guy is an hour drive but he has replied
So I emailed him, told him the car I want color, model, etc...and what I would pay, even taking a que from you guys and said if he needed any additional info to call me.

His reply:

What time would you like to come in on saturday?
I'll setup everything before you get here.

Am I overreacting, no mention he has the car, no agreement on price..just come on down...

I am done with him.

rroyce10 · February 2006

....l.o.l.....

Terry.

snakeweasel · February 2006

The last thing any consumer should do is to allow a dealer to convince them that a car price isn't negotiable, when it clearly is.

It isn't always negotiable. Saturn dealers won't negotiate, nor will Carmax. There are even individual dealers that are now offering no haggle one price shopping experiences. Plus in some cases certain hot cars are not negotiable. When the PT Cruiser came out I will bet that very little negotiation went on. Granted in the vast majority of cases price is negotiable, but not always.

biancar · February 2006

Perfect example of a salesperson interested in using the internet as a lead-generator but not as a profit center in itself.

You're right. Move on. As a courtesy you could shoot him one more e-mail saying you're moving on because he did not answer your specific questions. Then at least he knows.

golic · February 2006

I am too nice. I did just that Biancar. I told him, a hour drive is too long to come home angry.

I said if you have the car and can meet my price lets work out the details and my promise is once we agree I won't shop you around and come back for another $100. I even went so far as to say if we can agree write up a buy order and I'll make a deposit.

He came back with a lease payment and the caveat of approved credit (which i understand) which looks like my purchase price if my lease calculater spreadsheet is right.

Maybe I shot too high? I should call a few more dealers and see if they can beat it - JUST KIDDING *snort*

socala4 · February 2006

He's behaving like a car dealer. I would expect nothing less.

I wouldn't avoid doing business with the dealership -- I don't fault a car dealer for being indirect and evasive, he's behaving as normal. But I wouldn't go back to that same salesguy, unless he steps up.

If you give him another shot, I'd say something like:

"I'm ready to purchase X car (list your specs/ requirements) immediately. I am prepared to purchase the vehicle I have described here this upcoming ___day (day of the week) if you have the lowest price.

Please tell me if you have this vehicle in your inventory. If you do, please tell me what the purchase price is, both before and including tax, license and doc fees. If the price is right and the vehicle passes my inspection, I can inspect the vehicle, sign the paperwork and take delivery on ______day, February _____, all on the same day.

Please contact me by ___ (date/time) with your response. Thank you,
Golic."

I wouldn't hold your breath, but at least you showed you were serious about the purchase, because you put a date on when you'd pick it up.

biancar · February 2006

When he came back with the lease payment, he STILL didn't give the price that he used to calculate the payment?

I understand you figured it out with your own spread sheet, but still...

Are you going to go back there now? Sounds like you are inching closer to a deal.

golic · February 2006

Once he gets back to me, before I burn fuel I will ask for a "buyer's order" <--- is that the right term? Showing me the VIN, stock number and detailing the line items from purchase price to gross amount due.

I have a feeling I know what his game can be and that is I made it clear that I wanted to roll the sales tax into the lease, but I would pay out of pocket for tags, title and DOC. I have this feeling that when I show up they will be looking for me to shell out the sales tax.

If all works out to be right, I'll do the deal. If not, I don't need the car Today. I went $1,000 below Edmunds invoice, which if it works I am happy with. Or maybe I am leaving more money on the table - which don't get mad socala, I dont have the time to fight for *sniicker*

british_rover · February 2006

Yeah buyers order you got it right.

biancar · February 2006

...what are you buying?

bobst · February 2006

Too bad your approach didn't work for you, Golic. It worked for me in 1997.

We were looking for an Accord, so we went to Fairfax Honda and offered $17300 OTD but they turned it down. A day later I called them and offered $17400 to the salesman, but he needed to check with the sales manager. They never called back.

Not a problem. The next day I called Rosenthal at Tysons Corner and offered $17400. They accepted, so that evening my wife and I went there to find the car ready for delivery and the paperwork all set. We took the car for a test drive, liked it, gave them a check, and drove it home.

Some dealers are very agreeable and others are not. I guess yours wanted to haggle with you in person. Too bad you couldn't send Socal to work him over for awhile.

golic · February 2006

2006 Honda Pilot EX-L AWD Nighthawk Black. I was going to get Navi but after reading the Navi Forums. Why pay $1,800 -$2,000 for it on a lease?

Instead, I am going to go out and get a high end Garmen or something similar for $600-$700, and it is mine and I can use it in both cars.

jefk · February 2006

As I mentioned in my previous post, I am planning on using an employe purchase on my next car.
After reading some other formus, I want to be more prepared. I'm not planning on getting the quote and trying to haggle down, but how do I make sure that I'm not getting hornswaggled on the price or my trade in.

Any suggestions?

Thanks!!

biancar · February 2006

I agree you're much better off getting a portable Nav unit.

I personally like the paper ones from AAA.

Bobst, you must live pretty near me. I bought a Camry in '93 from Fairfax Toyota. Very pleasant transaction with them. Springfield Toyota had lied to me about "no blue Camrys anywhere on the East coast." The next day I found exactly what I wanted at Fairfax.

biancar · February 2006

What research have you done so far? For starters, go to the TMV section here on Edmunds and look up the car you're buying and the car you're selling.

If you do a trade-in, you need to resign yourself to getting less money than you (probably) could selling privately. If the convenience is worth it to you, then fine.

snakeweasel · February 2006

I personally like the paper ones from AAA.

So do I, I trust far more than the fancy electronic ones that take me out of my way and down roads that don't exist. I think nav systems are way to much for the times I would use them.

jefk · February 2006

I've done a lot of research and I am about $500 to $1000 upside on my car. Its leased, so paying sales tax and selling it on my own would end up costing me more.

The TMV for the new car wouldn't matter since it will come in less (I was told 4% less than invoice)

I guess what I'm concerned about is walking in and getting a lowball # on my trade in since I am using the employee purchase. Or having something slid into the price that shouldn't be.

Not that all salesman are "dirty", but I think we know that there are some of them out there.

Thanks for all the help!

golic · February 2006

I looooooove my AAA trip-tiks *bobble*

I always considered Nav a luxury item, until this winter when my son and I were driving in Wisconsin to go camping with his troop. We got hit with a snow storm, visability was terrible and I basically was driving by the side of the road reflectors.

I actually felt less safe pulling the car over in fear someone would just run into me and ended up missing a turn.

That night I decided that a navigation system can be a good effective tool.

jpnewt · February 2006

Maybe I missed this somewhere along the way but socala4 what 1 experience turned your attitude towards car dealers into this grumbling no positive thoughts type of person? :confuse: :sick:

jmurman42 · February 2006

Nice car!

What are the payment numvbers for your lease? I assume it is a Honda promotional lease?

Email me if you'd like and when I'm in tomorrow I'll run them myself with Hondas info.

british_rover · February 2006

Tom Tom also makes a good product. I like the Tom Tom system because it just happens to fit perfectly in the hole left behind when LR3's are ordered with out Nav. You just push the Tom Tom unit into the hole and it locks in place. Almost looks like it was designed to be there.

To the guy asking about X-Plan. If you told the dealer from the get go you are using X-Plan and that you have a trade I would hope that they wouldn't try and low ball you for the trade. Just be up front with them.

I would trust but verify though. If you got a carmax near by take it by them. And ask Terry in the Real World Trade in Values forum too. See what he thinks of the car.

I hate when people hide the fact that they have X-Plan. They go through this whole negotation process and then once we have a price they go oh yeah and I have X-plan. On most cars if you are good you can probably negotiate below x-Plan anyway and if you can't then the dealer is probably not gonna honor X-plan anyway.

A,Z and S plans are a different story. If you have that then I you probably can't negotiate down to that level. The whole point of those plans is just to say hey I got that plan if you will honor it what is the price. Simple and easy and I don't mind doing that on the cars we will honor the X-plan on.

snakeweasel · February 2006

There is one road near my house that stops right before it hits the interstate then starts up again on the other side, most Nav systems has this road going through. :confuse:

Then there is another road that last summer the city tore up, covered with dirt and seeded over, totally eliminated the road. It was a popular cut off but not designed for the traffic it carried. The Nav in the Caddy once told me to go down that recently gone road. Moral of that story is make sure your Nav system is up to date.

socala4 · February 2006

Maybe I missed this somewhere along the way but socala4 what 1 experience turned your attitude towards car dealers into this grumbling no positive thoughts type of person?

I do love the propaganda efforts by dealers to create a stigma about negotiation.

You don't get it (or at least you hope that the consumers reading this thread don't get it) -- I'm one of the few people in America who actually enjoys car shopping. I find it entertaining.

Enough with poor Walmart analogies and abuse of emoticons. Let's just lay things out in the open:

-Negotiation is normal

-Negotation is fun

-Getting a good deal is a satisfying, positive experience

-Not getting taken to the cleaners while performing an activity fraught with pitfalls, fear and loathing for the average consumer provides those successful consumers with a feeling of empowerment

-A good negotiation saves money

-Dealers created the system by which money is saved through negotiation, and prices increase if not negotiated. When you negotiate you are following their lead, not setting any trends.

On the other side:

-Not negotiating is unusual, particularly for those who pay the lowest prices

-Not negotiating and being in fear of the dealer loses the entertainment value of the shopping experience

-Overpaying is humiliating. (Who wants to be humiliated?)

-A lack of negotiation or poor negotiation will be costly

-Failure to negotiate ignores a pricing system that was created specifically so you would negotiate.

Don't try to make it a downer. The only people on this thread who are miserable are the dealers who want to convince us that we are losing $75 per hour by failing to overpay, that car shopping is akin to buying toothpaste (when was the last time that it took three hours, four guys in bad suits, and a five-year loan to sell you a tube of toothpaste?), or that a $50 wiper blade is worth $4,000.

golic · February 2006

Ummmm jmur, I would be happy to email you but your email is private. Mine is open, if you can email me. But otherwise money factor .00094 with 53% residual??

With the sales tax (.0775) rolled into the cost payment was working out to $421.

crandleman · February 2006

Terry, the analogies are NOT relevant. You try to make a long point on it but it holds no weight.

The reason is this, Wal-Mart, Home Depot, etc. charge different prices in different parts of the country, but they charge everyone who walks in the SAME PRICE. It doesn't matter at Wal-Mart what you age, color, sex, education, knowledge, pocketbook, etc.. looks like. Everyone gets the same upfront price regardless.

Wal-Mart doesn't have a guy standing buy the golf balls trying to get a read on if you are an idiot or not and then trying to charge you one price if you look like a sucker and then charging a lesser price if someone knows what they are doing. They don't then throw in ball protectant paint, a water hole warranty, extra dimples, etc..

This is the devil of the car business. They don't set one good price and charge it to everyone. They try to milk the suckers for every penny they have and they sell at a discount to well informed customers.

This is why the Wal-Mart argument will never hold weight.

I get it though, dealers WISH it would hold weight. Dealers WISH that customers would walk in and pay the MSRP on an item without question like they do at Wal-Mart.

You can clearly see from this discussion that many dealers are perplexed that people won't just walk in and hand over the money for whatever the sticker says and be happy.

biancar · February 2006

...not sure if that one is still alive, so since all my favorite car-guys hang out here (and you know who you are!),

, I'd like to ask this question.

As I've mentioned, I'm looking to buy a convertible. This is totally a fun car, not to replace my current car, so there's no real rush. I am most interested in the new Volvo C70, and the dealer will call me when they get their demo in, probably next month some time.

However, I'm also interested in driving some competitive cars, the Saab 9-3, Audi A4, probably the Toyota Solara. Would it be considered "fair" by the dealers if I start test-driving the competing products now, explaining that I'll probably buy something in a month or so, but not immediately? Or better to just wait until the Volvo comes in, drive that and decide yes or no to that, then possibly proceed with the others?

PF_Flyer · February 2006

This really isn't supposed to be about the negotiating process or Walmart or buying socks or a lot of the other stuff that's coming up here.

We seem to be spiraling down into a never ending series of analogies, claims, and counter claims that are all starting to look alike :P

Maybe a little breather now and then would be in order :sick: After all, the weekend IS here!

socala4 · February 2006

The reason is this, Wal-Mart, Home Depot, etc. charge different prices in different parts of the country, but they charge everyone who walks in the SAME PRICE

Imagine if this was what it took to buy a can of soup at WalMart.

Sales Dude: So, are you interested in buying some soup?

Customer: Yes, I'd like a can of soup. I'll take the Chicken Noodle.

Sales Dude: Have you tried the Chicken Noodle Deluxe GT Soup? It's the best we've got.

Customer: Well, I kinda like this other soup...

Sales Dude: How much can you afford to pay for the soup? We can get you into this Deluxe GT soup for about $1.95 per ounce per month.

Customer: I was wondering what it would cost to just buy the can of the soup I like, cash.

Sales Dude: We've got some fantastic soup programs right now. In fact, we've got a great deal on a salt-and-pepper combo, only ten more cents per month.

Customer: But I was just want to buy a can. How much for a can?

Sales Dude: It depends. The Deluxe GT is pipeing hot, lemme tell ya. You'll need some crackers to go with that.

Customer: But I want the normal soup. How much for that?

Sales Dude: Have you taken it for a test sip? Try out this Deluxe GT. With the optional Thick Noodle and Mega Chicken Chunx packages, I can get you a great deal...

...(three hours later)...

Customer: Is there a point at which that I can just buy this soup? I don't want to make payments on it.

Sales Manager: Sir, this soup is really popular right now, I've got people driving from miles around to have it. You might want to get the Stain Protection package, it will keep your bowls AND your mugs clean.

Customer: (Getting nervous) How much is the payment, then?
Sales Manager: That depends. Do you have a trade-in?

Customer: Well, I do have this can of green beans right here.

Sales Manager: (Shakes head.) You know, these beans just aren't worth much these days, everybody's eating creamed corn lately. And this can has a dent in it.

Customer: What can you give me for it?

Sales Manager: I'm not sure, I'll need to get my finance manager to get his take on this. Want a cup of coffee?

(to be continued.......)

biancar · February 2006

Socal, you a sitcom writer by any chance? Best laugh I've had all day!

mackabee · February 2006

Hey! How are you? Haven't seen any of your posts lately. This thread is very informative and very amusing. How are things down your neck of the woods? Awfully slow up here. Very unusual.
Mackabee

bdr127 · February 2006

This is totally a fun car, not to replace my current car, so there's no real rush. I am most interested in the new Volvo C70

You're looking for a fun car... and you mentioned a Volvo in the same sentence. Did I miss something here?

:P

mackabee · February 2006

Call the sales manager or general manager of the store you wish to purchase and tell them what you want to do. Why make things difficult?>
Mackabee

mackabee · February 2006

Test drive them all and write your pros and cons about each vehicle. Be upfront with the salesperson and let them know you will be buying within a month or so and the cars you are considering. Why deny yourself the pleasure of driving all four? Who knows you may decide you don't want the Volvo after all.
Mackabee

biancar · February 2006

Mack, are you still with Toyota down around Virginia Beach? You know anywhere where I could rent a Solara convert. for a month or so this summer? Does the local Enterprise or somebody have them?

To bdr - ha! Well, ok, maybe I should say "total mid-life crisis car," or "totally non-essential but I want it anyway car." That make you happier?

I'm sure for sheer fun I'd be better off with the Mustang. So guess I am thinking both safety AND fun. Volvos - the convertible version of safe sex.

mackabee · February 2006

I'm still with Toyota on the boulevard. We have some available for rent.
Mackabee

biancar · February 2006

We have a house in Nags Head. IF I buy the Volvo, I'd do an OSD, and those aren't available until late August at earliest. But I want a fun (can Solara be fun??) convert for the summer, too. Can you rent me an SLE for a month? How much? Please e-mail me if you have info. Thanks!

bigdveedubgirl · February 2006

Biancar,

I read in a earlier post that you were also looking at an A4 Cab also, my email is my profile, and I work for an Audi Store, Let me know if there is any info need and what area you are in because my owner is in a 20 group and he knows alot of the dealers, so I can find out which one is the best in the area you are in.

mackabee · February 2006

Bianca, I'll check with our TRAC tomorrow morning and e-mail you the info.
Mackabee

bigdveedubgirl · February 2006

SOCala4,

I said that I value my time at $75 an hour, not that everyone should.

We all do not wear bad suits, and it does not have to be a 3 hour ordeal. My clients at the point of knowing exactly what car they want are out in 1.5 hours on average. Negotiation is fun, that is why I love my job and that is why I am good at my job, but I am at the point in my career where If someone came in not on the up and up and not honest with me for reasons of trying to get a good deal, I can walk away and I do walk away. I do not tolerate be disrespected or mislead, be cause I do not mislead ANY of my clients. Being FAIR is not just pricing, it is the whole process.

bigdveedubgirl · February 2006

To all the dealers!!!

Have a Great Weekend and close out this Month STRONG!

biancar · February 2006

Thanks. I'm in Northern Virginia, just outside of D.C. Could consider Virginia, D.C., or MD dealers.

mikefm58 · February 2006

ROTFLMAO........

socala4 · February 2006

Let me guess -- you don't like soup?

Being FAIR is not just pricing, it is the whole process.

I'm just curious -- why does this FAIR process always end up raising the price when you're the one calling the shots? (And that's online or otherwise...)

mikefm58 · February 2006

You know, you've actually changed from your earlier posts on this forum. They were nasty and confrontational and directed specifically towards anyone in the biz here.

But lately, it's evident that you simply despise how the sales biz is set up to pray on the mis-informed or meek buyer. From your posts, you're a skilled negotiator that gets enjoyment out of using their own sales tactics against them.

Example:
After 3 hours of negotiating, sales mgr says "OK sir, we can finally meet your original price".

You: Oh, you must have misunderstood me. I never said I was willing to PAY that. How much lower can you go?

And it continues on for another 3 hours.

I worked with a guy (now retired) who was exactly like you. He could sell ice to an eskimo, was cool as a cucumber in the negotiations, and would enjoy wasting a Saturday afternoon at the dealer knowing he'd never buy. I remember him laughing, saying they are so predictable.

biancar · February 2006

How do you get that Socal despises the whole process? He doesn't. He's said so many times. He claims to enjoy it. Just My Humble Opinion, but I'm enjoying his posts. Some thoughtful, some funny. Many have been right on in describing the process.

I think you should copyright the can of soup at Walmart version, Socal!

socala4 · February 2006

You know, you've actually changed from your earlier posts on this forum.

Not really, IMO. I actually began trying to advise Dr. Fill (who is enjoyable to read throughout this forum) on my theories on how he could exploit the internet as a true online selling tool for his own personal benefit.

It evolved after some of the salespeople here basically disputed the notion of quoting a price online, ala Amazon. I only brought up my own unwillingness to buy online because I am convinced that an online buyer will pay more, even under the Amazon-type model that I advised. (Notice that I advised it not primarily to help the customer, but the dealer -- the posts were meant for Dr. Fill.)

Unfortunately, some of the dealers were unable to seperate my argument that a good negotiator will get a better price in person than online, from my advice about how they could make money selling online. Their egos got caught up in the fact that I know that they are very easy to work if you simply game them.

Ironically, they unintentionally conceded that those customers who pay the least will be in-person buyers, because dealers don't offer the lowest price during the first round, and the negotiation process in person involves greater commitment, and therefore a greater sense of loss if the customer walks away. (That bit of insight was for the customers, not the dealers -- they already know this.)

I think that on the whole, they've shown that "online selling" is not going to deliver what the typical online customer wants. The whole thing is just a charade to get leads in the usual way.

But I'll bet that those who break from the norm and create a true internet sales model will prosper from it if they can sell in high enough volumes to turn inventory. As you can read from this thread, there's barely a dealer in the country who wants to do it, so the true internet salesman can rest assured that he won't have any competition.

isellhondas · February 2006

More "expert" advise from the man/woman with all the answers!

biancar · February 2006

....who of course is the only "expert" who really counts, right?

Isell, I can never tell if you're truly just a legend in your own mind who really hates it that other people have other opinions, or what. You slam people really often who differ from your own views.

socala4 · February 2006

ISellHondas, you've really got to make up your mind. And have a bowl of soup.

- First, you complain that online leads are flaky.

- Then, I advise Golic to tell the guy when requesting his quote that he is ready to inspect, sign and buy on a specific date for a specific vehicle in stock, in the next few days.

Your response? Another quip.

Funny thing is, the sort of response that I recommended is what you claim that you actually want! But when offered, you don't like it!

Here you've got a guy with a real name and a specified date to buy the vehicle, with a purchase request made over the internet. (Pretty cool, being that it is being sent to the Internet Sales Department.) What would you possibly have to complain about with that?

Make Me a Better (Online) Car Salesman!

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