Classic? Collectible? Special Interest? Just Old?

kswyden · October 1999

Delete 104. I need to know the price of a 1977 Jeep CJ7, with 38,000 miles body in good condition.

Mr_Shiftright · October 1999

Hi kswyden,

A CJ7 price will vary considerably with equipment, as many people add all kinds of things to these vehicles. But if it's a regular CJ and in normal street condition, good but not pristine, probably something like $4,500.

jo39 · October 1999

1972 Toyota Land Cruiser, 18,000 mi, near mint condition. What is this worth?

Mr_Shiftright · October 1999

Very collectible in certain circles...I've seen prices all over the place for them, from $5K-15,000, but I don't think these higher prices are actually realized very often. Hard vehicle to price, but I'd guess $10,000 should buy you a very nice one. The glitch with pricing them is that as 4X4s they still have usefulness, so people might pay more for them as a great, cheap 4X4 than as a collectible. I presume we are talking about the old open FJ40s.

jo39 · October 1999

Thank you, Mr. Shiftright, for your advice and quick response.

jo39

adarnell · October 1999

I have a 74 SAAB Sonnett III that I need info on. I eventuall plan to restore it but cant find anything on it. I was also wondering what it's worth, if anything. It's got 72,000 miles.
Thanks in advance
adarnell

Mr_Shiftright · October 1999

This car was made from 1966-74. There was a Sonnett I but it wasn't a production car. The Sonnett II came out in 1967 as a two-stroke, 3 cylinder car, but soon after was fitted with a GErman Taunus V-4.

In 1970, the Sonnett III had a revised fiberglass body, and in 1971 a slightly larger 75HP V-4 was fitted.

The car was never a big seller and was withdrawnn from the US market.

As far as value, it is marginal, in that it fits into the "curios collectible" category along with other unusual but not terribly popular cars. I think they can be fun to drive and they are quite sturdy aside from the chronic Saab transmission weaknesses, but if you restored it you'd have to accept that you would lose most of your money if you decided to sell. These cars aren't all that scarce (over 10,000 made), are considered somewhat unattractive by most people (not me, but I wouldn't call it a beauty either) and generally around $6,000-6,500 seems to be absolute top dollar for a restored one. So you can see that restoration would be for love, not for profit.

So I'd say tidy it up and enjoy it, but think twice about a full-bore restoration. I don't see the market for this car improving in the future, and if you want to really get into a restoration project, you'd have an easier time and come out better with a chrome-bumpered MGB.

Just my two cents. Enjoy the car--it's interesting!

C13 · October 1999

For what it's worth, which is far less than nothing, the Sonnett had the smallest number in Road & Track's 'steering index', which is calculated by dividing the car's turning circle (in feet) by the number of steering wheel turns, from lock to lock. R&T measured some weird things in those days.

What all this means is that the car should do well in tight autocross courses in the SSB (Showroom Stock Bizarre) class.

Mr_Shiftright · October 1999

Being an old front-driver, I would think the turning circle would be quite enormous...so follow me here...if the number of turns lock to lock were also enormous, you'd end up with a low "steering index" but not necessarily a nimble car? Or do I have that backwards?

C13 · October 1999

I'm embarassed to have found documentation so quickly. Took me less than 2 minutes. I really must get a life one of these days.

I refer you to the 1973 road test annual, pg3: "The R&T steering index is a number we have devised to measure maneuverability or steering quickness."

Oddly enough, I can't find an explanation of how they calcuated it. I must have dreamt up that bit about dividing turning circle by steering wheel turns. It doesn't work.

But they do list the Sonnett III as having a very small turning circle (26.1 ft) and very few turns (2.7 turns). However they figured the 'R&T Steering Index', the Sonnett's was 0.71; lowest in that issue. The Elan Sprint measured 0.80. Most other cars, including expensive sportscars, were well over 1.2 / 1.3.

So a huge turning circle and a steering wheel like that on a large ship (that just keeps spinning with minimal effect on the machine's direction), would presumably result in a high 'steering index'. An F1 car, with less than 1 full turn lock to lock and a small turning circle should have a low number I guess. It measures how much 'turn' of the car you get per 'turn' of the wheel.

I dunno. You're the one who has contact with these guys. Ask em what the hell it meant.

PS
The Lotus Europa, which didn't have a full test and therefore didn't have the 'calculated data' like the steering index, had fewer turns lock to lock than the Sonnett, but a *44-ft* turning circle.

PPS
The Europa is a perennial on my list of cars desired only by me, and nobody else. In fact that's part of the appeal. I'm just afraid people would think I'm Diana Rigg.

Mr_Shiftright · October 1999

I think there is a record of one other person who actually wanted a Lotus Europa, a 5' 1" former human cannonball with Ringling Brothers, who, it says here, was shot out of the world's largest circus cannon on Feb 9, 1986 and was not heard from again.

A 44ft turning radius? Good grief, how did they manage to DO that on a car that was only 13 feet long?

C13 · October 1999

Maybe it's like with Grand Prix motorcycles.

Kenny Roberts was demonstrating one for a news crew once. He showed how when you turn the handlebar, the front wheel can turn only a degree or 2 before it hits the stops, but even that was more than necessary. "you steer that hard in racing and you'll high-side", he said.

Maybe Chapman just figured a good driver would just kick the tail out when necessary. True, it had no power, but hey; it had no adhesion either.

Seriously, I'm sure that both measurements were taken at virtually zero mph. I'll bet the Sonnett's turning radius would grow pretty fast as the speed rose, whereas the Lotus' might not increase very much even at pretty high speed.

I was looking at a "how to buy a used Lotus" book recently. I figured that with a fiberglas body, the Elan might be relatively rust-resistant. But apparently the "backbone frame" is very rust-prone, due to lack of drainage.

Mr_Shiftright · October 1999

Some Lotuses are collectible and some are dead in the water...you have to be careful which car you pick, since the uncollectible ones are usually the nastiest to own and drive...Lotus lovers are no fools, they know which cars are the real gems and which are the rhinestones.

adarnell · November 1999

Mr Shiftright,
Thanks for the info. I bought the car in '90 for $900 and drove it until it died, now it sits in a barn awaiting someones loving care. For now it will have to wait. Thanks again for your help.
adarnell

Mr_Shiftright · November 1999

Okay adarnell, good luck with your project. Until you get to it, you might want to think about picking up a parts car for this car as well, since body parts especially (hinges, lenses, handles, trim parts, glass) are going to be tough to find. This will also reduce the cost of restoration and ongoing maintenance.

bhill2 · November 1999

I read through the postings here and no one seems to have picked up on something that was in the original post. the question is asked "What do you think? Should a 1930 Duesenberg and a 1964 Rambler both be called "classics"?" Well, my father owned a 1964 Rambler and it indeed was a "Classic", the reason being that it wasn't and "American" and it wasn't an "Ambassador".

Mr_Shiftright · November 1999

If Rambers are "classics"...well, fine, then we need a new word for Duesenbergs, because they sure are different from one another!

joerockhead · November 1999

327 Sb V-8 with CA. A.I.R. system.
All original, Heads, 2-bbl Carter carb., exhaust
manifold, A.I.R. Pump and hoses, Plus I have the 2 Speed Powerglide.
What are each of these worth??

bhill2 · November 1999

I think that Mr. Shiftright missed my point. The "middle" series of the 64 Rambler line was called the Classic (the small one was the American, and the most prestigious line, although on the same chassis as the Classic, was the Ambassador.)

Mr_Shiftright · November 1999

Oh, no, I got your point, thanks, I was just spinning off on it, humorlessly as it turns out.

bhill2 · November 1999

Nonetheless, your point is well taken, Mr. Shiftright. A Rambler is a classic only insofar as it says so on the trunk. Except, perhaps, the '57 Rebel --- but then again, no. Interesting, perhaps, but not a classic.

joerockhead · November 1999

If anyone has an idea what a 327 smallblock V8 with a carter 2bbl carb, and the california A.I.R. system out of a 67 camaro may be worth. Please let me know. The Engine is all original.
Does anyone know what the 2 speed powerglide tranny out of the same car is worth?
Does anyone care?

C13 · November 1999

How hard could it be?

Let's assume that you're not worried about entering any concours. Original appearance is not important.

Pick a nice, desirable old coupe that's almost undriveable in the summer in a warm climate. How about a nice Alfa GTV 1750? You find a nice, modern rotary compressor, a condenser, some tubing; you fabricate some ductwork and brackets.

Is it feasible?

Also, is it possible to have the compressor driven by an electric motor (like in your house) instead of by the engine via a V-belt and clutch?

Mr_Shiftright · November 1999

I think the biggest challenge isn't technological (for the Alfa, all you need do is swipe the system out of an 80s Alfa Spyder) but the question of ROOM...a/c components are pretty big and clunky, and need to be positioned in the right place.

But sure, anyone clever enough could retrofit something. I'm sure you'd need to fabricate the brackets, of course, and the double pulley system too, no doubt.

C13 · November 1999

And how about powering it with an electric motor? Seems like then you could even stick both compressor and motor in the trunk if you had to. You think it could work?

If so, somebody could market a complete kit with adapters for a wide range of cars. As long as you can find a place to stash the condenser, you could put A/C in almost anything.

Sound possible? Worthwhile?

Mr_Shiftright · November 1999

I really don't see the market here myself. Most cars on the road have a/c, and the ones that don't are dying off at an alarming rate---and as for the "classics", you wouldn't want to go chopping them up with ducting etc.

Sounds like a scheme we could sell stock in and then everyone but us would lose money.

C13 · November 1999

So it's a deal then.

True, you wouldn't mess with a classic, but a fun old runner with unmatching numbers, that will never be worth much except to the owner,...

Here's a variation on the theme:
I once paid to have a dealer-installed unit *removed* from a mid-70's Dascher. When it was "working" it would spit ice and ice water on your legs. When it wasn't, it would emit a HUGE, dense cloud of white smoke out the tailpipe. I'm not exaggerating to say that I could not see the car behind me. That only happened once though. Didn't turn it on again after that.

Mr_Shiftright · November 1999

Sounds like typical German a/c to me....never buy a/c from a country covered in ice most of the year, that's my advice.

C13 · November 1999

So then Fiat A/C oughta be pretty good, eh?

Mr_Shiftright · November 1999

Well, there goes that theory......

bhill2 · November 1999

I had a '72 Volvo with dealer-installed A/C that actually worked pretty well (of course, this was Seattle.) Had an interesting feature. The air intake was about 4 inches from the right-side kick vent. Open the vent, you had fresh air A/C, close the vent, you had recirculation. Same thinking that came up with the idea of having a roller shade that you could roll out in front of the radiator to make the engine warm up faster.

Mr_Shiftright · November 1999

There is something charming about simplicity, yes I agree. Like vent windows--if you need to defrost your windshield you just pop open the vent window and there you go.

lweiss · November 1999

Hard to explain it to my teenage kids, but there was a time when a service station was just that- you could pull in for gas, and the pump jockey would pump the gas, clean your windshield, check the oil, water, and battery (remember the long necked water cans near the pumps) and often check the air pressure in your tires, all for 33 cents a gallon !!! And pay by credit card- no, he always had a big wad of bills and change in his pocket.

C13 · November 1999

What, in your opinion, was the last vintage of RR to be competitive in its class - early 60's? Late 50's?

Saw one on the road today. Separate fenders. I'd estimate that it was a late 50's model; possibly a 60's.

It really looked quite beautiful, dignified and actually very discrete. It didn't scream opulance like some modern, vulgar cars do. It was a simple, straightforward, not that huge (no bigger than an average SUV), honest piece of steel, wood and leather.

Think of all the pitiful neo-Rollers that are trying so hard to imitate that style: SUV's of the same length, twice the width, with acres of leather and veneer. Same weight, twice the power and 4WD. And no class.

Mr_Shiftright · November 1999

I think the Silver Wraith "S" model, 56-59 was the last sort of decent Rolls ever made, even though it has all of the Rolls bad habits (a triumph of design over engineering). The styling is elegant and if properly cared for, you could actually call it a reliable car (by the standards of the day)...and the "S" has the larger engine, so it can be driven at reasonable highway speeds.

Some people would also vote for the 62-65 Silver Cloud III dropheads, which are quite rare and valuable (about 50 made, others have been converted out of factory and are not as valuable).

I myself would never own a Rolls although I've had the opportunity to buy a number of good-looking cripples (they're cheap), but I really like the Bentley Continental Fastback from the early 50s...I just don't happen to have an extra 150K around.

jmacfadyen · November 1999

You and I are of a like mind on cars and apparently of the same vintage. Anyone who can cope with Lucas electrics (the "Prince of Darkness") ranks at the top of my list. Actually came across a runing 1949 Ferguson Tractor (TO 20) with functioning Lucas generator and electrics on the original Vanguard engine. I may just buy it. Still looking for a decent TR3 and would love to get my hands on a 1957-1962 Moggie with the TR3 engine that does need to go to the cabinet maker first. Here in the Midwest such nostalgic cars are hard to come by. I do enjoy your sense of humor.

Mr_Shiftright · November 1999

I put a Motorola alternator on my two MGBs. I got really tired of rebuilding the Lucas generator every few months (or so it seemed).

Well, for vintage cars you folks in the Midwest have the big Kruse Auction in Auburn every year. I've seen some good buys there...but you're right, you don't see many decent old foreign cars being dragged out of barns and garages in middle America.

crosley4 · December 1999

Any of you "kids" rememeber the brand of oil called "Rev" ?

As I recall is was a recycled oil for use in cars that would consume oil. It was like a dime a quart in the 60's out here in AZ and CA.

rarmknecht · December 1999

I have a 1977 bmw630 (serial #25) in excellent condition. It does need a new paint job, but has never seen snow and not much rain. Mileage is less than 55000 original.

Does this have any collectors value or is it just another old car?

Mr_Shiftright · December 1999

Well, it seems to have some limited collector appeal, being a coupe and not a 4-door car, but it is limited and does not appear destined to increase very much. Evidence for this is that the newer "versions" of the car, the 635 CSi, for instance, are MORE valuable. So, in essence, the 630 is behaving, price-wise, like a used car (the older it is, the cheaper it is), rather than a collectible (the older is it, the more expensive it is). Also, being in need of paint, and also a European version not imported into the US, hurts its value as well. In tip-top shape, this is probably a $5-6,000 car at best, and as is, prehaps $3,500.

But they are still a nice ride and will always be worth somewhat more than an ordinary 1977 sedan.

dbruland · January 2000

Several years ago I owned a 1983 Olds 98 Regency Brougham Sedan. It was a "taupe/mauve" color, that was also shown on other GM cars of that vintage. Can anyone recall what the manufacturer called that particular color?

badgerpaul · January 2000

I don't remember what they called it, but I do remember that it faded fast.

mcgints · January 2000

I am trying to sell a 1974 Triumph TR6 for $10,000. It is in original condition. Anyone interested?

Mr_Shiftright · January 2000

Hi mcgints,

You should advertise this car in Hemmings Motor News--their website is (hemmings.com) and Sports Car Market Magazine --their e-mail is: (mail@sportscarmarket.com).

Both these publications are inexpensive but they aim directly at the type of buyer you need...your price is ballpark but would have to be extremely nice to sell at that price, neaer show quality...still, you have to start somewhere, and that seems reasonable asking price for a nice car. The active range for them seems to be $6,500-8,500.

good luck,

Host

bbriggs3 · January 2000

My first post - I'm shy. This topic is interesting. My neighbor has a Hillman Minx convertible - looks nice but you guys are right, it's not a very good car.

My question: Do any of you have knowledge of the MB 180D/190D? I like their looks and I know many junkers are out there for parts. I know also they are among the slowest of cars ever made. I've driven Saab 96's with the 3-cylinder 1 carb setup and found them to be fun and powerful enough, though I suppose they are a bit lighter in weight. I'm thinking of buying one for enjoyment but wonder if they're enough fun/reliable with their underpowered plant.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2000

A Mercedes 180D has a certain charm when you LOOK at it, but god, it's awful to drive one. It is a rough, noisy thing, and it's so slow it couldn't pull the skin off a bowl of rice pudding.

Think of it as VW performance at Mercedes prices.

How about a Volvo 120 series (Amazon). One tough car, easy to fix, plenty of parts, and fun to drive, and attractive. Try it, you'll like it.

douglasb2 · February 2000

Great posts!

FYI - "carnut4," the 48 Cadillac was the first year for the tail fins, and I believe it was a better looking car (especially the Sedanette), however the 48 had the old flat head V-8, which was slower and ate more gas.

And "dbruland" that color, kind of a tan-rose was used on the entire Olds line from about 80-84. Sherwin-Williams made the paint - you could probably find out with a phone call. Still drive my '84 -98; it's bullet-proof!

carnut4 · March 2000

Hey Shifty-just browsed through the latest edition of the national Old Cars Auto Trader.[April] There were a couple different 55 Buick Convertibles in there. One a Century [rare] the other I think was either a Super or Roadmaster. Both seemed interesting and reasonable. "Course you can't really tell much from those ads. But who knows?I just remember you expressed an interest in those models some time ago-thought I'd pass it on. Think you'd ever get serious about owning one of those? Be quite a change from a Sunday cruise in the Alfas! Anyway, one carnut to another...

Mr_Shiftright · March 2000

Oh, yeah, I'm still interested, but some of the prices were too high I thought for the condition they were in. These are big...BIG cars, and so not easy to restore.

Yes, you're right, should I buy one I'll always have to remember whether I'm in the Buick or the Alfa before I hit the freeway exit!

Thanks for the tip-off, I'm on my way there!

Shifty

cadyluvr · March 2000

My first time, I am thinking of buying an '84 sedan DeVille 2dr. with 149k miles for $1600. I don't know a whole lot about cars but I really like that era of Cadillacs, and this car rides really well. Anybody have any opinions or info. on this model. Much appreciated.

Classic? Collectible? Special Interest? Just Old?

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