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At the risk of sounding like a forum "host", this thread is for "mainstream", and most of us would think BMW & Infinity are far from that.
Personally, if Hyundai continues along this path...they should be just fine.
Quiet bizarre for a modern car......
Mike
I totally agree that Hyundai, with the introduction of the Azera, has come a long, long way.
4 years ago I never would have considered, buying and driving a Hyundai, yet here I am today.
I believe that Hyundai is capable of producing a luxury vehicle if they choose to do so.
I'm not sure if they are willing, at this time, to build the infrastructure to support the jump into this segment of the market.
For most Hyundai buyers, price and warranty are predominant factors.
certainly does seem to be the case, and something they can't help but profit from - long term. Those specs. posted for this 'magical' Genesis somebody posted look awfully close to those of the 300C, which discounting whatever reliability issues it has had, is a good (and successful)car in its own right. Interesting to me, that I saw no claims about FE or vehicle weight (likely well over 2 tons). That (the 300/09 Impala) is where the Genesis will need to compete if it is going to stay a 'Hyundai'. Called something else and trying to convince the public that this mfgr. all of a sudden has the ability to build a 'Lexus' is a real stretch and should be an extremely hard thing to sell - even if it is true.
Bottom line is that we will all know when and if this happens - it will be the same day that Hyundai doesn't have to discount or underprice their products heavily to sell them - at which point those of us that point to residual/resale values as a true measure of vehicle cost will have a lot less to talk about.
Re: that...
"It turns out that the first Chinese-designed car that will make its way into the United States is a Buick LaCrosse. General Motors may traditionally be thought of as a North American company, but they've got a design team in Shanghai that has been working on a few projects for them.
The Chinese-market Buick LaCrosse is expected to sell about 110,000 units this year, compared to just 76,072 of the American-market LaCrosse in the United States last year. Yeah, so what. That's the Chinese-market LaCrosse, so what does it have to do with the American market? Well, it turns out that this vehicle -- designed by a team headed by "Shanghai" Joe Qiu -- could be making its way across the Pacific as the next-generation Buick LaCrosse, which is scheduled to hit showrooms around these parts in 2008 or 2009.
Some have said that the Chinese LaCrosse "is way cooler than ours", paving the way for more Chinese-designed vehicles. Just don't bring us a Fengyin."
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http://www.mobilemag.com/content/100/354/C12099/
Well, if the car(s) enter under the established Buick nameplate, that sorta fuzzies-up the need to build name recognition...
My former FWD 2005 Acura TL 6-speed would run with his Bimmer M3. So I do have a taste of BMW's so called ultimate driving experience. I think they are over-priced and would still take the TL, over the M3 he had as the tL, had a more livable ride and you didn't feel every bump on the road. I roode once in a friends BMW 525i and another's 330i both of which were early 2000 models. I thought the M3 handled better than both of those.
So as a rule BMW's might be the most balanced cars in the world but that's about all they offer the consumer. They handle great and are pretty quick but from my luxury car I want more than just performance. If I just want performance I'd rather save alot of money and buy a Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X which will spank every production BMW ever made in performance feats. :P
My point is their is more than just performance in a automobile and the Genesis, will offer you BMW 5 series like performance at half the cost. It will offer Lexus/Cadillac like Luxury with lots of gadgetology at half the cost.
So as a rule of thumb I and many others will say that BMW's are over-hyped. You are paying for a emblem instead of the product. It use to be you got a benchmark car when you baught a Bimmer, now you get a good performaning car but what else ? The luxury is expensive once you start throwing on options and stuff like "active steering" is a joke just like the self parking system in the LS460. I want gadgets I'm going to use not stuff that takes a computer operating on dial-up to calculate if the car can fit in the tight space on Rodeo drive. :P The Hyundai, has got it all for half the money and when you see the Hyundai, owner in your rear view I suggest you pull far over and lock your doors because they just might get blown off
Rocky
Rocky
The Genesis, isn't a mainstream automobile ! Just because it doesn't have a luxury badge, doesn't make it a mainstream car. If you want to compare why bother as it wins this comparo hands down. It's not worth wearing out your keyboard.
It's like the old slogan when I was a kid. "Genesis, does what Nintendo can't do" :P The Genesis does what all the other cars which are like Nintendo's by comparison can't
do !!!!
Rocky
What does CTFU mean? The definition I found in Urban Directory is profanity? There must be a nice meaning?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
If you check online for China and crash tests, you'll see articles about how their GMC clone got a 1 star rating.
Now, how did that happen? Vitrually the same. The answer is simple. They used recycled half-breaking-strength steel. Now, both will hold the same weight, but shearing and deforming in an accident is completely different.
We all know this when we replace bolts on most anytihng. The recycled home depot junk steel made offshore bolts... Yep, they strip their threads and snap clean off way before their properly made with new steel counterparts.
It'll take China decades to make a decent car because they aren't interested in making a car that's the same, because it would cost them the same as it does here - or close to it.(labor costs aren't too large with most cars anymore, given the manount of automation. The majority goes into advertizing, upkeep of the plant, and materials. That's not going to change much reguardless who you are. Only by skimping on materials wil you be able to be cheaper than the Korean makes.
A $6000 Chinese car? Yep - expect it to fall apart like their mopeds and garden equipment(mowers, etc) does.
So, it just might have been able to beat my Azzy, lol
However, he stated his Maxima would blow the doors off anything that Hyunadai made. He's the one that better be careful of an Azera breathing down his tail pipe!
When you goose your Azera, does your neck snap back and your butt get lifted off the seat? Also, the Nissan's engine does NOT run out of breath at higher speeds, and I maintain that it would destroy anything Hyundai makes (at the track, of course
If I were in the market, I would gladly test drive an Azera just so I can either maintain or put my anti-Hyundai bias to bed. I just hate wasting salespeople's time, though. By the time I'm in the market the Genesis will be out, and THAT car has some potential. Alas, my wife just bought a minivan, so even though my car is paid off, we have 2 years and 10 months remaining until it's my turn. :P
It is so strange, to think that my next car will be a model year '10. I can't say, "Hey, I gots me a 'oh nine' Impala". No, it will be: "Oh, I bought one of the new 'ten' Maximas". "Which ten Maximas?" "No, the year 'twenty ten'". "Oh." Gah. Maybe I'll buy a leftover '09 just so I don't have to have that conversation 43 times over.
Just to wrap up, be careful when comparing Maxima model years, as another poster pointed out. The '02/'03 models are MUCH quicker than previous years, and actually a bit faster than subsequent years due to the car getting bigger (my model year Maxima was really replaced by the Altima).
My suspension was okay for straight line 140 lol, but God help me if I had ever had to turn or rely on the stock brakes. Street tires, were the original Firestone Wide Ovals. I think I had one of the first 10 sets ever sold in Colorado.
Enough about the old Mustang, I will get back to "Mainstream Sedans" :shades:
So you had some fun on some old tires, that proves power??? I've got enough power to spin brand new tires on a 20" package. Okay, my '02 Sonata could spin tires too with only 170 hp.
Oh, and believe me that the Azera doesn't run out of breath at higher speeds either. So far, I've had my Azera up to just a lil over 135 mph and that was with the factory tires. I only backed off because the car got that floaty feel. Notice I said, "...backed off..." The car still wanted more!!! I think the Azera is capable of running just above 140 mph when it's all said and done.
I'm not saying I would beat you, but I sure as heck don't believe you would "destroy" me in a race my friend. I know you won't be looking for me in your rear view mirror...that's for sure!
The recycled stuff is almsot everywhere in exported goods. The good stuff goes to their military and major construction projects, so cars and consumer goods don't do as well.
And yes, the new Buick looks good, but it's mostly thanks to the immense size difference that it does well in crashes, recycled steel or not. But I'd not want one in a crash over here versus a typical SUV. I've seen firsthand how remanufactured steel can cause problems.
P.S. Just ask any airplane mechanic about it - you'll get ten times this much in comments.
Cost-cutting above all else is a dead-end path as Mercedes learned. People want you to put forth your best effort and will generally pay for it.
You really do sound like a Hyundai 'shill', the fact of the matter is none of us know what the Genesis is or will be, do we?
I have no doubt it will out run the Bimmer 530/535i? the one with the 335i's turbo engine on paper. It might just out do the 545i. :P We will find out in the fall of 2008. So we have a little over a full year here in the States to find out. The cool thing is one day we will get to see in a future test in a car magazine how they stack up in the real world but my early prediction is a victory for the Genesis as Hyundai. You and I might have to meet to settle the score in a road race. :P
Rocky
No...the Genesis won't share that fate because it follows in a natural progession of build and price in the Hyundai line-up. The Azera can be had, fully loaded, for just under $30K. The Genesis will start out (according to Hyundai) around $30K and top out between $35-38K. That's really not far reaching with what they're establishing with the newer Sonata, and definitely the Azera.
OK, OK, I hear ya. I WILL make a point to drive an Azera next time I'm in the market, just because of your insistance that it is a worthy competitor to the Maxima. Hey, I'm open to discovering new cars. I just have a hard time believing the same company that produced my wife's college buddy's Excel could make something that rivals my car.
So, IF I had my car up to those speeds, and I'm not acknowledging anything, but I would wager it would button down and not "float". I have read several entertaining autobahn stories from people who imported Maximas to Germany. The funnier things I read: "My windshield wipers suck when I'm going over 120", or "The cruise doesn't want to seem to engage much past 110". :surprise: :surprise:
that, of course, the problem - if the car is genuinely superior than it needs a different name because otherwise it competes with things like the 300. And starting a new 'luxury marque' creates its own market acceptance issues once the buyers understand it is a 'Korean' car. Kind of a 'Catch 22'.
Time, of course will be Hyundai's best friend as time will prove whether or not the brand is worthy.
The problem with this logic is that BMW, Infiniti, and MB all make "aspirational" cars. You're buying a nice luxury car, sure, but you're also buying a name whether or not buyers of these cars can admit it.
As a Hyundai owner, I'm surprised you're not more sensitive to this. You KNOW people are going to judge you based on the fact you drive what is known as an "economy" brand. Now, even though I don't completely buy your Azera worship I know that there is nothing that screams "economy" about your car. It's a very, very nice ride compared to what most people drive.
However, people get shallow when it comes to cars, and let me give you a personal example.
A month ago, my wife bought a brand new navy blue Town & Country. It is VERY sharp, both inside and out. Her friend drives a 9 year old aqua colored Chevy Lumina - you can imagine what this thing looks like. However, when they went out on the town, this friend INSISTED she drive because she didn't want to be seen in a minivan!
This is the kind of perception Hyundai has to overcome as a "cheap" car company, and they have a LONG while to go. For the Genesis to succeed, it *has* to start under $30k. I know this would pretty much kill the Azera, but if the Genesis has the interior and drive to match the exterior, it is what they need to do to change customer perception. The NA auto marketplace is just brutal.
So, call me shallow, but if I'm looking at buying in the $35k range of cars, I'm thinking G35 or 3 Series. For the Genesis to get my attention, it would have to be every bit the car those two guys are, at 5k less.
Well...considering your Maxima was built as a sports sedan, you're right...it would not "float". The Azera is a highway cruiser, a touring sedan...so naturally, the softer suspension will allow it to "float". I'm sure the tires have a lot to do with it too, because since changing to a performance tire that's wider...the car is much more stable at higher speeds.
I'm pretty sure the Max isn't the only car to experience windshield wiper issues above the 100 mph mark. Cruise control doesn't engage past a certain speed as a safety feature. Heck, the cruise on my Xterra doesn't maintain speeds above 80 mph very well. It's like pushing the gas pedal and letting of repeatedly. Under 80 mph...it's fine.
I certainly hope people who are talking about driving vehicles at 100+ mph are doing it on a TRACK, and not on the streets/highways.
If Hyundai really wanted to shake things up...they could offer an Azera with a sport tuned suspension. The car already has an athletic shape...why not?
while I'll generally agree that the Sonata has been improved substantially (I'd tell you 2005 though, not 2002)and can be looked at as an alternative to Camcordimas etc. it should also be noted that the Sonata also started life on a JD Powers high and has been showing more and more reliability related issues ever since. And the reason why this doesn't happen to the Azera is because?
Who knows five years from now, that may change. But for now, it appears they are continuing to be just as reliable/well built as the JD Powers survey indicates.
That particular Sonata showed that Hyundai could compete with the Camry and the Accord as the Sonata carried itself in a very Camry-like manner. However, that's not to say that the '06 re-design really is what raised the public's eyebrow concerning the Sonata.
The Sonata has a history to build upon, the Azera doesn't. The Azera is establishing itself now and it has set a pretty high benchmark for a first year model. I hope that the Azera can maintain and prove to be what owners like myself already believe it to be. A very good car.
Might be.
I'm not so sure what the handling characteristics of a car at speeds greater than 100mph have to do with anything, though . . unless you're buying it as a race car, or gonna be driving it in Germany.
One on my friends thought it had so much power and liked the look of the Azera so much (and with over 90 more HP) that he started looking into the Azera over a year ago and has taken a few test drives. His present car comes off lease in June (a Mecury Mountaineer Premier V-8).
He's picking up his new Azera next Wednesday.