Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

autokritiker · January 2008

Well, it looks like the Hyundai Genesis sure is getting a lot of attention in here lately, despite:

1) some people swearing it is destined to fail

2) some people believing that very few car shoppers will care about the Genesis, or even know it exists

For now, I guess we'll all keep displaying our optimism or pessimism based on how much we like or dislike the car, as well as our individial hopes for the model or the entire manufacturer itself.

Personally, I believe Hyundai wouldn't take such a big step without doing all their homework first. I think both Genesis and Azera will remain in the lineup since different people have different requirements, and I believe both models will gain popularity whether it takes a year, 3 years, 5 years, etc.

floridabob1 · January 2008

RE:4597
Mike
I stand corrected, although in reading the releases I note that there is a caveat stating that specifications may change prior to introduction.
I also read that starting price for Genesis will be under 30k, not mentioning how much under implies. I see nothing indicating what a top of line, fully loaded model will cost.

dborth · January 2008

re 4601: "there are marketing dollars allocated for the Azera"

Uhh...they aren't spending any in my market, (So CA).

"Sales/service departments for majority of Hyundai dealers are good"

My post alluded to training necessary to launch Genesis. My experience with Hyundai dealer sales & service departments is far less than favorable. Odd too, since I keep buying or leasing them. Bully for you if you have found a keeper.

"How many units do you predict Hyundai would sell?"

Using sales results of Azera after two years, not many.

Suggestion: You should READ a post first and then comprehend it before commenting on it. You totally missed the mark, as usual.

joe97 · January 2008

1. S. Cal is one of the biggest markets for Hyundai, and to say there are no marketing dollars allocated is absurd. Do some research about Hyundai's marketing background, marketing strategy, their ad agencies, etc etc Hint hint, there are some recent news...

2. Hyundai has been working with the dealers to prepare for the Genesis launch - fyi This has been known for some time now.

3. Sales figures are important to Hyundai (along with other factors) and to some people, but as a consumer, I am more interested in the car itself, such as how it drives; and, if I am given the assignment at my job, I would be more interested in the added value of the car, such as the indirect effect of the Genesis to the rest of the lineup, and the brand itself...what kind of role it would play out.

I guess you will disagree with me, as it sounded like you have already declared a failure on the Genesis (and Azera) based on your pre-conceived notions.

dborth · January 2008

Azera is a terrific vehicle. It deserves greater market segment share, increased consumer awareness and unit sales improvement.

As such, Hyundai (and dealers) have their work cut out for them in the months ahead with project Genesis.

tjc78 · January 2008

I think the the reason why so many people are down on the Genesis is because of the mediocre success of the Azera. Hyundai has to work twice as hard to sell vehicles than Honda or Toyota. Dollar for dollar the Genesis appears on paper to have no equal. Lets just say it is as reliable as an Azera, and drives and rides at least as good as well. For under 40K there is nothing that can touch it (I don't count CTS, IS, or G different class). This includes some great cars (Avalon, Lucerne etc). Notice I don't bring up 5s, Es, and Ms. The reason is, very few (if any) current owners of those cars is going to look at a Hyundai. Sorry, that is just the way it is. People like me driving an Avalon (or Max, Lucerne, Azera), however should be interested because the Genesis seems like a nice alternative. I know I will give it a look when it hits the showrooms. If I were Hyundai, they should advertise the heck out of this vehicle and put it smack up against the Chrysler 300, Avalon, etc. What they shouldn't do it compare it to BMW, most of that market doesn't care and will pay the 15K more to have a 5 series with less power and equipment (but they get their oil changes free

)

floridabob1 · January 2008

RE: 4609
You are correct to a degree.
Most buyers of status cars, like BMW, buy it not only for the engineering but also for the aura.
Toyota was able to enter this higher circle with the introduction of the Lexus and is very successful in maintaining it's luxury status.
Nissan's Infiniti has not been as successful with the Q series.
In my opinion, Acura, while a great product, never reached the true status level.
There is still a question if Hyundai can or wants to attempt to enter this league.
It would require a completely new sales and marketing plan.

joe97 · January 2008

Agreed. Hyundai has to come out and swinging; in turn, the buyers will have to respond as well. The key here is the perception on Hyundai is slow to turn the corner, despite fantastic products throughout the fleet and the work Hyundai has done so far.

captain2 · January 2008

a 5 series with less power and equipment (but they get their oil changes free )
and let's stretch for a minute that that is exactly what they have, a 535/550 - for 20-30 grand+ LESS. There still remains that one thing that only money can buy, something you would want your neighbor to see parked in you driveway.
Again going back to the Lexus LS introduction, it quickly was accepted as a viable alternative to those German cars as it became known that it was built by Toyota, was 10 grand cheaper or so, and at the same time establishing that 'Lexus' brand that could be pointed to in someone's driveway with pride. Unfortunately and unfairly perhaps, the Genesis will be pointed at, be told its actually a Hyundai and then be asked (perhaps increduously) if it is any damn good rather than working from an assumption that it must be because it's a Hyundai.. A 'tough sell' perhaps an understatement mostly because Hyundai has a negative reputation if any, and it must be priced above $30k to differentiate it from the Azera. As Azera sales demonstrate the world ain't quite ready for a Hyundai that costs even a few grand less than that, never mind more . And don't be surprised if Hyundai doesn't have to offer 'tires for life' and/or 'lifetime drivetrain warranties' to supplement those 'free' oil changes, to sell this car.

captain2 · January 2008

despite fantastic products throughout the fleet
and this may be true, and may be a quite defendable position for an opinion YOU personally have, but this is NOT an opinion shared by many, is it? Hyundai may come out swinging as you say - but who is going to listen?

allmet33 · January 2008

Be careful on the BMW thing...owners get free oil changes, but...owners have to pay for the oil change that takes place in between the ones covered by BMW. This info is from a current BMW owner. Also, there are a lot of other things you must do in order to keep your BMW under the free maintenance program as well.

However...it sure is a good laugh to pull up to a 535/550 owner and know you can outrun him for $20-30K less. LOL Before you get started, I understand what you're saying.

One thing I will say about the Azera, folks look, point and ask and when I say it's a Hyundai, they don't ask if it's any good, the first comment is usually, "Wow...they've come a long way." Others have said, "I never thought Hyundai would pull something like this off." Usually...the 3rd or 4th question is, "Have you had any problems with it?"

However, I do agree with the previous post. Genesis sales may suffer from the poor Azera sales, which is due in large part to the lack of marketing on Hyundai's part. If they were serious about breaking ground in the near-luxury segment (which was all new ground for them), they should have done everything they could to create a buzz, to the point that you felt compelled to at least go take a look at one. It seems that Hyundai has once again dozed off at the wheel...I haven't seen a commercial featuring the Azera in about 2-3 months now. The last one I saw was the "ThinkAboutIt.com" commercials...which I haven't seen play for a good while!!!

tjc78 · January 2008

"There still remains that one thing that only money can buy, something you would want your neighbor to see parked in you driveway"

Looks like you are on the same page as me. When the car comes out, it will be interesting to compare to my Avalon. I won't look at the V8 but the 3.8 with 300HP should be fairly close to the Av in acceleration, certainly giving up a few MPG while doing it.

allmet33 · January 2008

1&2. I think overall, nobody is seeing the marketing dollars in ways we as consumers should. With the introduction of a brand new model, you would think Azera would have been plastered all over the place...which it wasn't. The fact you have Azera owners complaining that service techs knew next to nothing when folks would bring their Azera in for anything. What makes you think that it'll be any different with the Genesis? Azera owners STILL have problems with techs not knowing a lot about the Azera...even going into it's 3rd model year.

3. If sales figures are important to Hyundai, refer to 1&2. It's hard to get consumers interested in the car when nothing is out there to point the car out...other than seeing it on the road...here and there. I'm sorry, but when folks don't see a car in large numbers, they feel it's not worth looking at.

It's not really about disagreeing with you, it's about facts as they stand. Personally, I would LOVE to see Hyundai take off with Azera and Genesis as it's launch pad, but sadly...Hyundai is shooting themselves in the foot. I'm not saying that the Azera is a failure...as a car, it's a very good product. However, sales figures would indicate that it is far from a success. If Hyundai has struggled with the introduction of a brand-new car once, what makes you think they'll have success with another one costing more than the previous one?

captain2 · January 2008

it sure is a good laugh to pull up to a 535/550 owner and know you can outrun him for $20-30K less
how fast anything is has absolutely nothing to do with its quality. I seriously doubt that a 290hp Genesis is outrunning a 535, but even if it does it is still not likely the same quality of car that the 535 is. If what makes one car better than another is simply a function of HP, then we should all be modifying those big ole Ford V8s in what has to be the 'best' vehicle out there - the Mustang GT - shouldn't we?

captain2 · January 2008

If Hyundai has struggled with the introduction of a brand-new car once,
perhaps and only because the car buyer can not and does not change as fast as Hyundai can (the jury still out on that one?) and a case of Hyundai maybe not understanding that.

allmet33 · January 2008

Captain...you sure now how to be a wet blanket, don't you? Maybe not a 3.8 Genesis against a 535, but the 4.6 V-8 against the 550!

What's really sad is, you don't get the point being made. Most BMW owners believe their car is THE ultimate machine. It's just a passion they have for their cars...can't knock that. To have a HYUNDAI pull up and run off leaving a BMW behind...that would sorta stick in the BMW owners craw. The fact that the Hyundai isn't quite the same quality as the Bimmer.

Sometimes, my friend, you take a statement too far. I never said HP made the Hyundai better, simply faster. Stop making mountains out of mole hills.

allmet33 · January 2008

Not quite sure what you mean by that. Hyundai hasn't changed that fast. I mean...the reshaped Sonata in '02, followed by the re-design of it in '05, which preceded the introduction of the Azera. Prior to that, the last new vehicle introduction Hyundai had was the Tucson (which was '05/'06).

As far as the Genesis goes, it's not like it was a fly by night deal. According to Hyundai press releases, they had spent 4 years developing the Genesis.

If it's quality you're referring to, it's not like Hyundai did an overnight 180 degree turn on that. It's a trend they've been on over the past 4-5 years. A company that wants more can only be mediocre for so long, eventually a mind set changes and things improve. I think it's more of today's car buyers just remaining skeptical based on Hyundai's past. I can't say that they are wrong for being skeptical, but don't be judgemental until you've actually seen for yourself.

alexstore · January 2008

you mean copying designs for Genesys from Infinity and Lexus? They even went so far as to copy Bentley Logo

allmet33 · January 2008

Okay, and I'm sure Hyundai is the ONLY company that has copied designs from anyone, right?

Remember when the Camry and Maxima looked very much alike? Have you seen the new Accord Coupe? Back half looks very much like a Toyota Solara.

Wait a minute...I know you've seen the sketches of the upcoming Maxima. Tell me it doesn't look like a stretched Avalon?!?!

Seriously man...give it a rest.

alexstore · January 2008

April 08 we will see new 09 MAx

allmet33 · January 2008

I promise, I won't be the one to say I told ya so.

kdshapiro · January 2008

However...it sure is a good laugh to pull up to a 535/550 owner and know you can outrun him for $20-30K less

It would be a good laugh, if it could happen. But since both cars would dust all versions of the Genesis in real life, I doubt the Hyundai owner would be laughing.

In addition, just to clear up the free maintenance thing, I spent $200 total on my BMW during my ownership exclusive of gas and insurance (which was dirt cheap anyway). That $200 was for an alarm system add on. No I did not get the oil changed more frequently than the computer told me it needed to be changed. Average visits to dealer per year: 2. Number of scheduled maintenance visits per year: 1. :shades

allmet33 · January 2008

But since both cars would dust all versions of the Genesis in real life, I doubt the Hyundai owner would be laughing.

Is THAT right? I guess we'll have to see, huh?

kdshapiro · January 2008

Is THAT right? I guess we'll have to see, huh?

I guess we will. :shades

joe97 · January 2008

Actually, it is shared by a greater part of the automotive industry. Today's lineup of Hyundai more than makes the grade and is competitive in their respective class.

"Hyundai may come out swinging as you say - but who is going to listen?"

That's exactly the issue. How many consumers are going to turn the corner and actually start looking at Hyundai vehicles, you and I, and a good part of people here are well versed on the fact Hyundai makes class competitive products, but it'd take more than just an overnight period for the rest to realize the change. Other automakers have gone through the similar ordeal (i.e. Honda, Toyota, Nissan) and history has shown it takes time and a lot.

alexstore · January 2008

so what you can beat BMW in 0-60, WRX also can and Also my Maxima beats Azera in the same run. 0-60 is just a part of the game. BMWs are not 0-60 race cars, they are performance cars. My car has many advantages over BMW 528 starting with its price, but I know on a track that same car will beat me in overall performance.

allmet33 · January 2008

Well...I'm not surprised that they would protect themselves with a caveat, considering the HP snafu of 2002. You see how they were vague in the beginning by stating it would only be upwards of 300 HP and 300 ft/lbs. of torque.

I have seen a mentioning of the top of the line, fully loaded model topping out around $37K.

joe97 · January 2008

Well said. I am in agreement the Azera is far from reaching its potential so let's explore.

Scenario:

Why does Santa Fe sell so well, also a relatively brand new product?

I picked the Santa Fe on purpose and wanted to gather some feedback from you guys, aside from the fact Santa Fe is meant to be a volume product, for the most part, and the Azera is not. (I know the Santa Fe starts lower than the Azera but top trims also come close to and near 30K)

joe97 · January 2008

March, actually.

allmet33 · January 2008

Santa Fe is hardly a new product...it's been out since 2002 as well, however...it's re-introduction in '06 fared well considering it was more of an overall appealing design, rather than that oddly, unique ugly duckling.

louiswei · January 2008

Maybe not a 3.8 Genesis against a 535, but the 4.6 V-8 against the 550!

Wanna put down a gentlemen's bet?

I say that there is no way the Genesis V8 will out accelerate the 550i in both 0-60 and 1/4 mile.

If I lose I'll post why Azera is superior than Avalon and it is the number one choice. If you lose then you'll have to post why Avalon is superior and king of the segment.

You game?

floridabob1 · January 2008

Prior to purchasing my Azera I owned an Infiniti Q45 and before that two BMW seven series.
The sales staffs at both Infiniti and BMW were extremely knowledgeable about their products. The Service Writers, Service Manager and the technicians { used to be called mechanics) were well trained, neat and efficient.
The cars were always returned to me cleaned, with no dirt or grease marks on interior or exterior.
I understand that the cars were much more costly to purchase and service, but that is to be expected with a luxury car.
I am not sure that Hyundai or it's dealers, at this time, have the mindset to provide
luxury service to their customers.
If one is looking for price alone and is willing to sacrifice some of the other pitfalls, the Azera and Genesis can prove to be successful.
Only time will tell.
As an "early" Azera buyer, I would have hoped that Hyundai would have taken quicker steps to introduce the features that were lacking in the first models.
To me, the gripe is that those features have been available in Korean versions from day one.

allmet33 · January 2008

Ummmmmm...HELLO, you would expect a WRX beating some form of BMW, after all...it does have direct rally car lineage!!!

You must not know too much about your cars then if you don't think BMW's are not 0-60 machines. They are THE performance sedan to which other performance sedans set their standard.

Funny, you'll concede to a BMW that has 35 less HP and close to the same weight as your Maxima, but you don't think an Azera with 2 less hp can actually hang. You're a funny guy...truly!!!!

To put it bluntly...your Maxima would walk over a 528.

tjc78 · January 2008

"If you lose then you'll have to post why Avalon is superior and king of the segment"

Well.... that certainly won't be hard!!

allmet33 · January 2008

Actually...Louiswei, that's not a good bet because I wouldn't want you to post that the Azera is superior to the Avalon. That is not something I've ever said, nor do I believe. The only thing I have ever said in regards about the Azera in relation to the Avalon is that it offers the Avalon stiff competition and is a very viable option.

So...your wager is really a moot point.

The Genesis may not outaccelerate it, but it would very, very close considering the Genesis would have 8 more HP, but it would also weigh about 100 lbs. more than the 550i. So...you're right, in that respect, the Genesis wouldn't necessary pull away, but I'll be damned if the BMW owner wouldn't be upset that he couldn't shake the guy driving the Genesis.

tjc78 · January 2008

"but I'll be damned if the BMW owner wouldn't be upset that he couldn't shake the guy driving the Genesis"

In all honesty... 0 - 60 would be damn close. However, what I would want to see if the Genesis has the suspension tuning to keep up with it in the curves. That would be more impressive

kdshapiro · January 2008

Just like the Genesis owner would be upset he couldn't shake the Evo or STI. There are always cars that are faster than yours, but it's the execution along with form/function that matters.

allmet33 · January 2008

Actually...neither the Genesis or the 550 would be able to keep up with the Evo or STI. I saw a run on the Speed channel where they compared a Evo to a Lambo Murcielago and the Lambo couldn't shake the Evo. Actually, the driver in the Evo pushed the Lambo into a mistake and the Lambo spun out in a turn and the Evo took over.

Lambo is supposed to be so much better in form and function than an Mitsubishi built Evo. I mean...there shouldn't even be a competition between the two, right? LMAO So to be honest...the Evo or STi would actually dust the Genesis AND the 550i.

However...you're missing the point here. People pay premium $$$ for the status that comes with a BMW and in their mind, nothing is supposed to touch it in any way. Now along comes this "lowly" Hyundai and all the sudden, your status symbol is being challenged. THAT...is hilarious!!!

allmet33 · January 2008

Well...the known 0-60 time on the 550i is 5.5 seconds.

As far as the suspension tuning on the Genesis, it's being said to be impressive as Hyundai is using an all new configuration. How it does in real world testing...remains to be seen.

To be honset, I'm rather excited that there's a possibility of a Hyundai giving a BMW a run for it's money. Not just saying that it has more HP, or that it has more room or that it has more cup holders. The fact that the Genesis has the POTENTIAL to compete with one performance-wise.

captain2 · January 2008

you better look before you leap (or before you attempt to pink slip one of them.) The 528 is about 225 hp, and heck even your Azera would take that down, the 535 (which is the one I mentioned) is right at about 300hp artifically aspirated and are torque monsters. And dare I suggest that those Bavarian horses are a tad bigger than the Korean variants. BMW has a history of underrating its engines as well as publishing somewhat conservative performance claims unlike the Japanese and Koreans. You can do that when everybody knows that you make really great engines and pretty much have for over 50 years.
I don't believe any car short of the 300C in this group will accelerate with a 535, and I would even go so far as to suggest that your precious Tau V8 isn't going to keep up with a 550 either - although it should easily run with the 300C/Impala. All somewhat educated guesses, of course - but if I were you in that 3.8 Genesis that you are hoping the wife will let you have - I'd sure stay away from most of those nasty German sedans!

allmet33 · January 2008

Like I said, maybe not outrun any, but sure 'nuff give 'em a run for their money.

captain2 · January 2008

you and I, and a good part of people here are well versed on the fact Hyundai makes class competitive products
well we are certainly 'gear heads' aren't we. As an owner of a Toyota and a Nissan, I'll certainly admit to having 'Japanese' bias if for no other reason then I have 2 very powerful, comfortable, reasonably economical, and to this point 'bulletproof''cars. And I had to wait a little while before I got a chance to drive an Azera (neighbor bought one) and look forward to weaseling my way into a Genesis - because I like cars, especially the more practical sedans. My best guess right now, though, is that like 'tjc' I will also be influenced by maybe 4 or 5 mpgs (or more), will disqualify the Genesis 3.8 on that basis, and will re-up into another Avalon.

joe97 · January 2008

Here is my reasoning - the Santa Fe, for example, has a much larger customer base than the Azera (which is still much unknown around the country). The Santa Fe has the larger customer base because of its equity carried over previously. Similarly, stablemates in the US such as F-150, Camry, Accord sell by the lots, with or without marketing, of course marketing is essential, and effective marketing is even better. The brand itself (Hyundai), unfortunately, doesn't contribute much, yet, despite a fine automobile the Azera is.

Just as Hyundai has seen dramatic improvements in amazing short time, and the vehicles currently enjoying their success, good products like the Azera will receive their dues, in time. The pain it endures along the way is just the process to get better. Hyundai has to be patient, as we all know the turn around doesn't happen overnight - Toyota and others, having experienced similar ordeals, have all worked many many years to become where they are today.

joe97 · January 2008

Good to hear!! Certainly everyone's priority is different. It's always a good thing there are different choices to choose from. It'd be boring if everyone had the same thing.

On that note, I am glad Hyundai and most other automakers are improving their fleet constantly. The better the car, the stiffen the competition, normally, but generally, we, the consumers benefit as well, with better cars to choose from.

I admire companies like Hyundai. Although I don't own one of their vehicles, I have driven many Hyundai vehicles over the year (and other brands as well). Personally, I find it amazing the Koreans can put together well-built automobile that match or exceed, and run with the "big boys", for the most part. This is one of the main reasons I would have no problem owning one (Genesis?) and having it as my daily driver; equally, I wouldn't mind recommending to those in the market (which I am happy to report there are a lot of happy Hyundai owners).

kdshapiro · January 2008

" Actually, the driver in the Evo pushed the Lambo into a mistake and the Lambo spun out in a turn and the Evo took over."

Wasn't that a Ferrari?

"However...you're missing the point here. People pay premium $$$ for the status that comes with a BMW and in their mind, nothing is supposed to touch it in any way."

Actually with the premium comes a whole lot of engineering you don't see. Without acknowledging the form/function and execution you could say any car is the functional equivalent of any other car. Yes one pays a premium for a Lexus, BMW, Infinity over a Honda, Toyota and Hyundai but there is a reason for it. Leather seats do not a luxury car make.

bhmr59 · January 2008

There still remains that one thing that only money can buy, something you would want your neighbor to see parked in you driveway.

If you want to spend 20 or 30 grand more on a car to impress your neighbors, go right ahead.

Others would rather put that money into their home, kids or investments.

cobrazera · January 2008

BMW has a history of underrating its engines as well as publishing somewhat conservative performance claims unlike the Japanese and Koreans.
How right you are. July "06 C&D had tests of Ford Shelby 500 and BMW M6. Both rated 500HP, Ford weighed 3896#, Beemer was 3908#. BMW was a half second quicker to 60 and the 1/4 mile with BMW trap speed 9 MPH faster. That's huge.
Whether it's underrating or fat powerbands or voodoo, BMW sure gets a lot from their engines.

tjc78 · January 2008

"My best guess right now, though, is that like 'tjc' I will also be influenced by maybe 4 or 5 mpgs (or more), will disqualify the Genesis 3.8 on that basis, and will re-up into another Avalon. "

We will have to see what the published FE is when official specs are released. However, 5 MPG less than my Av just may be a deal breaker for me. I do almost no open highway drving and seriously doubt I want FE in the teens again. All this is moot if gas comes down, but I just paid 2.91 for reg up about a dime from a week ago...

joe97 · January 2008

Yeah, I forgot to mention, captain2, I highly doubt it would be 5 mpg or more. Here is why:

2008 Toyota Avalon EPA rating 19/28 - 268hp
2008 Hyundai Azera EPA rating 17/26 - 263hp

That's 2mpg difference, although I've gotten similar mileage during my test drives on both but let's go with EPA stated.

Keep in mind the 3.8L in the Genesis in Lambda II, and from Hyundai, higher horsepower (check - 290hp) and increased fuel efficiency (we'll find out).

Regardless, I don't think it will drop 3 add'l or more...

coolrunning · January 2008

Before I start, let me say I believe in buying American. I have always owned American cars and always will. I recently considered buying a Mercedes. After test driving a nice sedan (priced at over $80,000), I headed over to the closest Chysler dealership to check out the much touted 300C. What I discovered was that I could buy the top of the line Heritage Edition loaded with every option possible, for just about $41,000 sticker ($36,000 actual). The 300C has the 340 HP 5.7L MDS HEMI V-8 mated with a 5-speed Mercedes auto-transmission (not available in the Mercedes). It out performs the German car in every category while looking extremely cool doing it. I feel in love with the Inferno Red beauty so much tht i actually bought two of them for less than the price of one Mercedes. They are fabulous and way under rated for some reason. Infortuantely, by the time people realize what an incredible buy the 300C is, it will likely be priced much higher than it is today. Test drive one before you buy anything!

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