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convenient use of mathematics - lets see if 68 Toyota Corolla = bad, 78 Toyota Cor
olla = better, 88 Toyota Corolla = good -that sounds like about 20 years. I'm not saying that it will take until 2022 for Hyundai to get the Sonata thought of as 'good', only that it is not realistic for the manufacturer to think they are going to change something like that in 6 years or so, that it took the Japanese maybe 20 to do. It should(and likely will) take less time if for no other reason than they have a bunch of good examples out there.
EXACTLY, just as it did Toyota, Nissan, and Honda (to a lesser degree) some 20 or 30 years ago.
Azera Genesis 535I
W/B 109.4 115.6 113.7
Length 192.7 197.0 191.1
Width 72.8 73.3 72.7
Height 58.7 58.7 57.8
Curb Wt. 3,629 3,732 3,660
Curb weight for Azera is with 3.8, Genesis engine was not listed,
The point to this is Azera will appear "smaller" to Genesis on the showroom floor, much like the "5" series compared to the "7".
As this kind of thing would apply to the Azera/Genesis:
assumming that Hyundai is spending a bulk of its advertising budget on the Genesis - but because that particular car then only represents a small fraction of their sales - what this 'rule' says is discontinue the Genesis. However given the investment that Hyundai has obviously made in the Genesis, a desire to improve the company image etc., it would seem more likely they do the reverse, i.e. kill the Azera. IF they do find buyers for the higher priced Genesis, doesn't it seem logical that Hyundai would want to kill the Azera simply because they make more money selling us the Genesis for several thousand more? I would wager that Toyota makes more money selling me one Avalon for $34k, then it does selling me two Corollas at half that price. Just a thought, and a whole lot of conjecture
Personally...I don't feel a need to kill off the Azera. There's a market for both the Azera and the Genesis. However, time will surely tell.
BMW has always done a pretty good job maximizing interior volumes in a RWD layout, but I would be surprised if the Azera isn't larger inside than even a standard 7 series never mind the 5 series, as is an Avalon or 500/Taurus.
I always find it amazing that my Avalon has much more room inside than a Grand Marquis/Town Car despite being probably 2' shorter.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Roland
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
I have a soft spot for full size Fords, but their time has past! Anyway, you are right about the 5er. I spent time in the rear of one recently and was surprised how roomy it was. I figured it would be worse than a Camry/Altima.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
$20k, now that would be a tall order to fill for a car in this group - on that budget. A stripper Taurus, a base Azera, a base Charger, a base Impala - perhaps - the Avalon/Maxima/Lucerne no. The bang for the buck deal IMO is probably the Taurus, but it sure doesn't mean anything good for Taurus resale values, so don''t count on it saving much (if anything) over a shorter (5 year or less) time frame. It's kinda sad that it takes Ford 3 years to finally get some competitive HP in that car and now they have to discount so heavily to sell it. Guess the name change really didn't fool anybody and/or the styling is objectionable to some.
Heck...we've seen the Max being a longer car than the Avalon and yet, having less interior space. So...exterior dimensions really don't amount to a hill of beans when it comes to the interior space. The other thing that plays a key in all that is how long the wheel-base is. The further out to the corners the wheels are, the more space is left for interior space.
nope, the Avalon (exterior wise) is larger than both the Azera and the Maxima - and also with a coupla more cubic feet interior room which I think is primarily in the back seat. Believe the Azera measures at 109 CF which is a bt more than the Max, the Avalon at 111 cf actually tied with the Ford. This is really of little importance, the point being how well YOU fit in any car. I recently had a chance to drive a Mini Cooper (I refuse to give it the honor of calling it a BMW) but from a driver's perspective I think almost anybody could drive it - lots of room. People do come in a bunch of sizes and shapes.
You are right about the Mini...those things are so tiny to look at from the outside, but I've seen folks of various sizes driving them and not one of them looked uncomfortable. Unlike a guy 6'3", 280 lbs. tryin to squeeze into a Corolla, that same guy could probably be more comfortable in the Mini...as funny as it sounds.
big deal, so what, ao are several other cars listed here
now see this is what gets to me about Hyundai - it's like the boy who cried wolf - if they expect me to pay attention to whatever claims they make about any of their vehicles - they also need make those claims a less outrageous (things like comparing a Sonata to a 530 for example, a Veracruz to a Lexus, or an Azera to a 750/S class). Hyundai does not produce and probably will never produce a car even on the same continent as cars like that. I mean you don't see Toyota, Nissan, or even 'Detroit' attermpting to insult our intelligence in this manner. Maybe some folks are dumb enough to believe something like that - in my case, it just turns me away from the whole brand. Things like Hyundais (and Toyotas and Nissans) shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence with some of those German and premium Japanese cars.
There you go again, they aren't saying anythign else, other than it has more room inside than the S-Class. Calm down...seriously.
So I guess, in your words, I'm dumb to believe that the Azera has more interior space than a 750, or that the Genesis could be more spacious than an S-Class???
I agree that none of the mainstream sedans shoudl be mentioned along with the premium sedans when it comes to mentionings of performance, handling and other such aspects, but if you're stating a tangible fact, it's a fact. IF a Nissan Sentra had more interior space than a 5-Series and Nissan chose to use that fact...they wouldn't be wrong...IT'S A FACT.
Now if someone is dumb enough to believe that using a fact that references interior space as saying that it's a better car...maybe they don't need to be looking at cars.
and so is a MINIVAN - maybe we should ask Hyundai to drop a V8 in the Entourage, heaven knows what they would come up with.
The fact, really is, that cars like the Sonata/Azera are relative marshmallows even compared to Camrys/Avalons, never mind trying to compare them to really good cars - in any respect.
Now if they say the Sonata was faster from 0-60 than the 528, again...it's a fact if it can be backed up. Well...then the Sonata IS faster than the 528 from 0-60. Did Hyundai say the Sonata handles better than a 528? Does the Sonata give the driving experience of a 528? Does the Sonata make one laugh as they drive past someone in a 528? No. No, and No again. All they are saying is...you can get a car with more hp than a BMW 528 and pay WAY less money for it. I don't know about you, but isn't that a straight up fact? Can it be disproven in any way?
Okay...so the Japanese have never jumped out there and used the Euro premium sedans in comparisons to their own...so what. Hyundai is brazen enough to step outside the norm and do just that. Bravo for them for having the gumption to do things unconventionally. Maybe that's the aggressive behavior they need to have in order to change their image.
Ride quality was never brought up...why are YOU throwing it in there??? You keep taking one simple fact and spreading it to other aspects and Hyundai hasn't even done that. Basically...all of this has been contrived by you and what YOU think.
If someone walked up to me and said, "Hey...I just sat in a Genesis and it's bigger inside than that S-Class I own." I hardly think the first thought in my head would be,"Wow...it must handle better since it's got more room inside." LOL Come on, seriously...how silly does that sound? I could see your argument if Hyundai was going around saying that the Genesis would rival the S-Class in ride quality or handling capability. Until it was proven by some respectable publication and presented in writing...even I, as pro Hyundai as I am, would have a very, very hard time accepting that information.
Exactly what Hyundai is doing - the Sonata has as much in common with a 528 as I do - with Arnold Schwarznegger.
So...let's say Toyota says that the Camry has more hp than a BMW 528 and gets better FE...would they be wrong?
The quote I received was Out-The-Door on both models. The Buick quote was gotten yesterday, so I doubt it would be better today. The Taurus quote, however, is over a month old.
Inappropriate you say? LOL That's funny.
What was the MSRP of the Lucerne? It had to higher than 27500. You said CX with no options. If the price is indeed 27500- 28K the dealer didn't take anything off the price of the car except for the rebate which is not a good deal. Obviously, no matter how you cut it, considering what the Taurus gives you the initial price is hard to beat. However, as Captain pointed out in a few years it will be worth next to nothing.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
proven by any comparos done by folks such as Car & Driver, Motor Trend and the likes
car comparisons,ratings etc. PROVE very little they are only opinions.
Fair enough.
Yep you caught me....Toyota gave me my Avalon and I have to say how good it is in every car forum I can find!
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
now some 'betters' are more defendable than others I guess, which I suppose is the reason for forums like this.
Financially, the Taurus would be a good move I think, considering that they keep cars awhile, and GM doesn't have a great rep for resale itself (and that 3800 V6 is just a dog in comparison to modern engines). If they spent $3000 more for a car they liked better over many years, that's money well spent I'd say.