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And minivans suck. They just plain eat your soul every moment you spend in one. Unless you absolutely need one due to having a giant family or are using it as a portable toolbox(ie - locksmith or detailing business or something simila) , just avoid them.
That means he has to fit 6 in a pinch(once or twice a year for a family trip I'd wager) and most of the time, 4-5 at most. That does change my recommendations a bit since I thgout it was 5 instead of 6.
6 is fine. 7 is not required. The trick is to find a car that can fit 6 adults. A *few* of the larger sedans can fit 6 adults in a pinch and are perfectly fine for 5 adults. The Grand Marquis and a few others fit the bill, and are dirt cheap a couple of years used as a rule, since they all are domestics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full-size_car
The ones that have 6 passenger seating:
Buick Lucerne
Cadillac DTS
Chevrolet Impala
Crown Victoria/Grand Marquis/Towncar
It's a short list of vehicles with a bench seat in front, but two adults are positively swallowed like they are sitting in easy chairs in a Crown Vic's back seat. I've taken a limo to the airport(Towncar) with three slightly overweight adults in the back seat and we were perfectly fine. Downright comfortable to the point where one of us actually fell asleep on the way there.
Hip room / Shoulder room (in increasing size)
V8 specs for the most part, since 6 people in a V6 will be snail slow. These are NEW MPG figures, so expect highway mileage to be on the high side as they all :P are nearly idling at 65-70mph in overdrive.
Lucerne
Front 56.1 / 58.0
Rear 57.0 / 57.0
15/23(V8) Expect actual combined mpg to be 20 and 23 due to tall gearing.
Impala
Front 56.4 / 58.7
Rear 57.2 / 58.6
16/24 for the V8. Taller gearing than the Lucerne or DTS. ~21 Average.
DTS
Front 56.9 / 60.0
Rear 56.7 / 59.2
Same MPG as the V8 Lucerne. FWD and tall gearing means 25mpg isn't uncommon on the highway with cruise on on long trips.
Grand Marquis
Front 58.0 / 60.6
Rear 58.7 / 60.0
15/23. 19 mpg combined (real world results in my car) - 25mpg highway on long trips.
All 4 use regular 87 octane gas.
'17 Chevy Volt Premiere
New to the forums and selective car buying. I am starting a new job as a traveling salesman and will be putting a lot of miles on a car - daily road trips. My current car (Nissan Sentra) gets great gas mileage but isn't going to cut it when it comes to comfort - the drivers seat is really uncomfortable and I'm a big guy and very cramped in the Sentra.
Can anyone suggest a car under $20k that gets good gas mileage and has a high level of comfort? I will be receiving mileage compensation, so the gas mileage is equally as important as the comfort of the car.
Thanks for any advice and/or direction!
'17 Chevy Volt Premiere
What do you all think about a 2-3 year old Acura TL in the 40-70k mileage range? Seems like I would be getting the comfort/luxury, keeping fairly decent gas mileage, and staying in the price range.
I'll be driving 30-40k/year at the new job, so I might want to avoid the initial depreciation of a new vehicle.
I would expect the TL to star incurring maintenance fees in the 100k range and it is very unlikely to make it to 200k without at least one relatively expensive repair.
The problem with Honda/Acura is they don't depreciate much until they get quite a few miles on them. But otherwise I agree...used is a great way to go particularly since you'll be piling the miles on. I usually shop carefully and find something a year or two old with low miles. I picked up my Pathfinder with 15k on the clock and saved about $7k off a new one. I've seen some nice '09-'10 Malibu's with <30k miles for sub-teens and you get the 100k powertrain warranty. I was averaging 33mpg with the last rental Malibu I had and it had some around town miles on it. Road warrior car in my book and you don't have to worry about expensive maintenance or premium fuel (as the TL requires).
My top mileage cars ever were Toyota, Mercedes, Volvo, and Honda in that order. My Toyota had 390K on it when I sold it - and it still passed California Smog and got its factory rated MPG.
70K - maybe if it was a Daewoo, Suzuki, or Chrysler, you'd have to worry. But even the crappiest GM econobox will last 150K these days.
I test drove a TL from the used Acura lot and it was a real beauty - I've never driven a car like that! I'm new out of college so I've only driven pretty old cars (my Sentra is by far the nicest car I've owned). I didn't, however, consider the premium fuel cost of an Acura and after exhausting an internet search yesterday you are absolutely right that they don't depreciate much until they get to 100k or more.
I need to check out the Malibus now that they've been mentioned a couple of times.
Anyone else have an opinion on a really comfortable car? It definitely has to do with the drivers seat for me - my brother has an old Mitsubishi Diamante and there is such a difference with the seats on a luxury car than the econo-seats they put in the Sentra/HondaFit/Corolla.
My dilemma right now is whether to suck it up and drive the Sentra for a year or two and sock away the extra mileage compensation I'll be receiving and then possibly crack into the $20-25k new car range when I get more money saved (I don't finance), or to get something I want now that I'll be happier driving in the new career.
I don't suppose you would have suggested that the OP purchase your 390k mile Toyota for his 30k-40k mile per year job?
whether to suck it up and drive the Sentra for a year or two and sock away the extra mileage compensation
That indicates to me that a "nicer" car is not a job requirement, for image, so I would recommend that you wait on the purchase, for at least 6 months.
New jobs sometime don't work out, for a lot of different reasons. It is still a very weak economy. Keeping the cash and the Sentra offers more options if things do not work out as planned.
You can ALWAYS buy a nicer car later.
I'd buy a Toyota or Honda with 70K on it and consider them to be barely broken in. I *would* recommend one for a commuter, but... the thing is, that there are better, cheaper alternatives.
Back to the OP's last question:
I need to check out the Malibus now that they've been mentioned a couple of times.
Anyone else have an opinion on a really comfortable car? It definitely has to do with the drivers seat for me - my brother has an old Mitsubishi Diamante and there is such a difference with the seats on a luxury car than the econo-seats they put in the Sentra/HondaFit/Corolla.
My dilemma right now is whether to suck it up and drive the Sentra for a year or two and sock away the extra mileage compensation I'll be receiving and then possibly crack into the $20-25k new car range when I get more money saved (I don't finance), or to get something I want now that I'll be happier driving in the new career.
Oh, lord, you don't need to do that. You want cheap, fun to drive, and well built. This means an entry level luxury sedan that is about 3-5 years old. You should be able to get something in the 15K-20K range that will last you 5 years or more just fine.
But what to get? (note these are specific years and model combinations for various reasons - get the recommended year or newer. Most are the last year off a production run before a refresh)
#1: The simple fact is that Chevrolet is mediocre. Buick is a good alternative, and the older LaCrosse, while a bit "rental" feeling, is a superb highway machine - like the Malibu, but with the softer seats, and all of the frills. And a bulletproof engine that was actually the 2nd most reliable V6 after Toyota at the time. It's also old-school. The GM 3.8/4 speed transmission combo that they used for almost 25 years is $1500 to rebuild and hardly ever breaks. Parts are cheap for the car as a result.
Depreciation is also steep. You can get a certified 2008 LaCrosse for $15K. Some old guy drove it and it has 30-40K on it and 2 years of the 100K drivetrain warranty, no less. Perfect solution, IMO. And while people moan and complain about GM, compared to a Sentra, it'll feel like you stepped up 5 levels. You can get 27-29mpg realistically on long highway commutes. Not bad for a 3600lb car. Oh, it's also tons safer in a crash, obviously, than a Sentra. The reason that older people drive larger cars is that they trade mass and safety for economy. The problem is that the people who commute the most and can least afford to have something happen to them (young people essentially) drive cars that are tin can flimsy in a crash.
Me? I've driven trucks or larger cars since day #1. Been in several accidents and only suffered some minor back issues and scrapes. In something tiny like a Sentra, honestly, I'd be afraid to go on the freeway these days. So I feel your frustration.
#2:If you have a bit more money, though, GM builds a better car, and that's the Lucerne/DTS(same platform, just different treatment) - The DTS is a superb floaty couch on wheels and commands a fair chunk of real estate. MPG isn't as high as the Sentra, though, so the smart person's DTS is the Lucerne. The 3.8L engine in it isn't anything to write home about, but it does get good MPG and is a nicer car than the LaCrosse by far. Depreciation is also fairly steep, so used models are already well under $20K. Originally they sold for almost 35K after options and are a tremendous used value.
#3: Wait until this fall and get a 1 year old Mustang - the new model with the 30mpg V6 in it. Very nice car - very fast, very solid, and you can also get a manual in it, which I highly recommend.
#4:If you really really want high mpg over everything else, then that means you need to get a manual or a diesel. But there are no reliable diesels, IMO, other than maybe the Mercedes line, but that's expensive for parts and resale value is too high for what you get. That leaves something with a manual that's not a base model.
It's a short list. A few do stand out, though.
A: 2004 Pontiac GTO. 30mpg highway, 300hp corvette engine. Only made this year, and only if you get one with manual. The best "sleeper" car I know of. :shades:
B: 2005 Mercedes C230K Sedan. With manual, it easily tops 30mpg highway. Beautiful little supercharged I-4 engine. In this case, you DO want the base model as it has nothing to break on it. Needless to say, it has nice seats. Only get this year, with manual, and no options other than maybe leather seats and the panorama sunroof. Any other combination will make you cry in the end.
C: Volvo S40 sedan. This is overlooked by many, but it is a nice car that fits every criteria. It also gets good mpg with manual. Depreciates very quickly as it's off of most people's radar. Gets high reviews in Europe and repair costs aren't actually much higher than a Toyota these days. IMO, it drives like an upscale and improved Accord. It has that "Euro" feel to it in the turns that I like.
2007-2008 Acura TL. Yes, they made these with manual! Of note its the 2007/2008 TL type S, which has a more powerful V6 engine but a 6 speed manual. So it gets the same MPG as the standard 5 speed model on the highway. It can get 30 mpg on long highway cruises - just check the forums here. Overall, it gets about 3-5mpg better than the G35 but drives almost the same. Again, a total sleeper that's off of everyone's list.
Since the issue seems to be seat comfort, the S40 seat is greatly inferior to that of the S60. A FWD 2.5T can be quite reliable, although the mileage suffers a bit compared to the competition.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
I still remember my manual Volvo 240. That thing was actually quite fast. You just had to not be afraid to rev it to 4K between shifts.
My dilema is the 328i drives the best (especially because I found a manual transmission which I love), but it is missing so many creature comforts, moonroof, power seats, split rear bench, etc. Think base, base car. But it really puts a smile on my face to drive, but I notice that it is missing things it should have included.
The Legacy Limiteds I love for all of the technology and equipment, but lacks the drive. The 2.5 feels a bit slow, but adequate I guess. The 3.6 is the best compromise between my choices, but the savings against the bimmer is almost completely erroded which had me looking at subaru in the first place.
What would others do in my place given those options? I am looking for a new way to look at this as I can't seem to reconcile this problem.
'17 Chevy Volt Premiere
Sounds to me like the BMW is the only true sports sedan you've driven out of all you've listed. I strongly suggest getting out there and checking out those that might compete better, such as Infiniti, maybe a Caddy CTS, Lexus IS, Audi A4, etc. I don't know what any of these lease, but take a look.
On the Subie front, if you want a manual trans, why wouldn't you be looking at the 2.5GT?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
I'd take a drive in an Audi before making a final decision, and, of course, look at the lease deals they offer.
If the OP is intending to purchase at the end of the lease, my opinion is likely to change!
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Oh, absolutely!
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
I think that says it all. Do you want to smile or have more "creature comforts"?
I think that gbrozen's idea of a BMW CPO purchase might offer the best solution.
And regarding other "luxury cars" I can by far get a better deal with the BMW as I have the Team USA $1000 offer and a $500 Car club rebate, plus good residuals, a decent money factor, and a good selling price I have negotiated. The equivalent Audi, Infiniti, etc. is going to cost me a bit more in actuality (plus the maintenance included is really nice).
But, I think all of the posts have helped because just in posing it, I see that driving is more important to me than if my power seats can warm me up on the cold Southern California winters.
Let's see.... an '09 328i premium with ~30k'ish miles is going to run you roundabout $28k CPO. At a reasonable rate on a 5-year note, with only paying taxes/tags up front, you'll be right around $525/mo. After 3 years, if you do a 5-year note, you'll owe ~$11,500, but, if historical values hold up, the car will be worth a couple or few grand more than that.
What kind of lease are you talking about (numbers)?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
That said, while the "deals" are the same, the fine print in the books at the dealerships will allow you to pay a couple of dollars more a month to get one or two options if you have to have them. Personally, all the 3 series really needs from the base model is a proper aftermarket stereo.
Terrarium roofs are not my favorite thing, either. ie - does it actually OPEN all the way? (ie - a proper sunroof?) A piece of glass, well, that just acts like a magnifier on your skull in the summer heat. That flimsy sun shade over it doesn't do much at all.
My last vehicle that had a moon roof forced me to put the AC vents pointing upwards to the ceiling to keep from getting heat fatigue in the summer.
Concentrate on the driving. Fluff and interior B.S. is just a distraction.
That said, CPO and owning it can be a better option. As for alternatives, take a look at the C class. It's a fine car, and Mercedes has some really crazy incentives and rebates going on. And a great European delivery program as well. Comparing the C class (especially the sport model) or 3 series to something like a Subaru...
Yes, a fancy Seiko will keep time just fine. But it's not a Rolex.
Get a BMW or Mercedes. Nothing else compares to those two unless you spend a lot more money.
My small family (myself, husband, and toddler) need to buy a used car in about ten days. We only have about $4500 total (tax and fees, etc) to spend. We don't need much. Good gas millage, good reliability, and four doors (Sedan, Hatchback, or Wagon) is all we need. I thought we needed something like a 2001/2002 Ford Focus, 1998/1999 Toyota Corolla, or a 1996/1997 Honda Accord. Based on my research using the Edmunds TMV I thought these would be good bets for our price range and for what we needed. I also thought that since these are popular cars there would be a lot of them on the market to choose from.
This has really not been the case. We live in San Francisco and every place I've contacted will come nowhere near the TMV value for these cars. I'm guess maybe they are so popular, the dealers don't have to worry about selling them. There's no need to give me the price I'm asking if they can sell it for 1-2K more tomorrow or next week.
I need some suggestions on what to do and where to start. What cars should I consider to get what we need at this price? I'm really at a loss.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. I posted this in Sedans as well, but I think this might be a better place to find an answer.
2001 or newer Hyundai Elantras are worth consideration, as are 2000 or newer Sentras & Lancers/Galants. Probably the Mazda 3/Protege as well. A Subaru would be good though hitting your price point is tough and their fuel economy hasn't been a strong suit. Avoid the Neon/PT Cruiser and Cavalier/Cobalt.
You might also look around at private party sales instead of dealers. That would mean checking your local paper or AutoTrader mag, Craig's List & eBay, etc. Ask your friends & neighbors if they know anyone with a car for sale; through casual conversation I managed to put together a deal for a coworker of mine to buy my wife's car. They're picking it up tonight.
Generally a PP sale will be a little bit cheaper than the same car on a dealer lot. Just verify scheduled maintenance was performed and try to make sure you're not buying a car that was in an accident (use CarFax or another service). Or, if you do by an accident victim, make sure the price you pay is reduced accordingly. Have the car inspected by a trusted mechanic if you can.
Run, don't walk, away from any car with a Salvage Title.
I'll suggest that at your price point, the miles car has been driven and how it's been maintained are probably more important than the brand.
We have been asking everyone we know if they know anyone selling their car. No luck so far. but it's coming down to the wire and we have to get something soon.
I have never bought a car before. How much should I reasonably expect to be able to go down from the dealers asking price? What number should I start my negotiations at?
Thanks for the help. I need as much help as I can get.
Just a thought - try your local craigslist. Pop in senior owned or senior driven as search words and you might get lucky. A lot of the time it will get you big, gigantor cars or things that aren't the bargains you want but you can find a jewel in there sometimes.
I remember my SIL finding a low mileage Camry that way.
While they're hopefully better than they used to be, I'll tell you what I say to everyone I know who considers a VW: Everyone I've ever known in my entire life who has owned a VW loved the car but would never buy another. Too many small things go wrong and every one costs a few hundred bucks to repair.
Again, all we really need is good gas millage, good reliability, and four doors (Sedan, Hatchback, or Wagon). I didn't think I needed to add "road safe" to that list but dealers in the Bay Area have proven me wrong.
Any ideas for a car that would meet these meger needs that I could take home for 10K (or less)?
Thanks again for all the help and suggestions. Like I said I terribly out of the loop.
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2 - GM or Ford, large car, roughly 7-10 years old.
Basically something a conservative old person drove and took very good care of. A Buick Lesabre or Park Avenue that was never a rental is a good example. A Mercury Grand Marquis, while large, are cheap used and very easy to fix. Pontiac Grand Prix, Ford Taurus, and so on. Also, many Cadillacs like the DTS, which were only sold to old people, pretty much, ar good choices.
Sorry, but anything imported or that others think are "fun" will be a huge amount more expensive to purchase and to repair.
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=p&car_id=307360655
This is a typical example of the type of car you should be looking at. Asking 6K, really worth about 5K.
The same type of vehicle in a Buick (Park Avenue or similar) is ~$1000 less.
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=p&car_id=306191067
placeboeffect, I would say the recommendations stay the same but move everything newer by 2-4 years, which also means your targets should also fewer miles/less wear. Examples:
2004 Mazda 3i
2005 Ford Focus
2004 Elantra GT
Those 3 are below $8K at dealers, have automatic transmissions, get good economy, and don't have too many miles. Private party prices on similar cars should be $800-1200 less.
Ok... sticking with your original budget, here are some for you.
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/cto/2624856045.html
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/2621311693.html
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/cto/2624483079.html
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/2618629695.html
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/2619115341.html
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/cto/2577049308.html
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/cto/2615730684.html
http://monterey.craigslist.org/cto/2571175138.html
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/cto/2585034449.html
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/cto/2624313749.html
I could go on and on and on.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
'17 Chevy Volt Premiere
From the searching I've done so far it seems that anything cheap in this area is going to be priced around 4-5K regardless of what it is actually worth. I guess because of the current financial situation people just don't have a lot of money to spend but they still need something and are therefore at the mercy of these places and their "5K deals". I'd much rather have the better car that is also the better value.
What I'm seeing online (haven't called any of these places yet to see if they will go lower) in our new price range of 8-10K are:
Chevrolet Aveo (2006 - 2010)
Kia Spectra/Optima/Rio (2005-2009)
Hyundai Sonata/Accent/Elantra (2005-2010)
Toyota Yaris (2007)
Mitsubishi Galant/Lancer (2006-2008)
Nissan Versa (2007-2009)
Do any of these seem appropriate for a 8-10K price tag? Or would I still need to agressively negotiate these cars to get a good value?
We have left San Francisco to shop but we can't go to very far since we have to rent a car to do our car shopping. Not having a car also makes a dealer more attractive simply because we can look at several different cars/models in one place rather than drive all over the penisula looking at cars. We have to buy something relativly quickly because we will have to rent a car twice a week untill we make a purchase. I know this doesn't make for optimal bargain hunting but it is what it is.
I really and truly appreciate all the help and suggestions. I would be totally lost without it. Thank you all again.
Kia Spectra/Optima/Rio (2005-2009) - I've had family & friends who've owned Optimas and never reported being dissatisfied. The Kia cars are semi-clones of their Hyundai counterparts. Kia sometimes isn't thought of very highly but I don't think that rep properly reflects their efforts in the 2000s.
Hyundai Sonata/Accent/Elantra (2005-2010) - Considering my wife had an '01 Elantra and just this past week sold it & bought a '12 Elantra, I have to say I've a biased opinion. I think in general they're good cars. Elantra & Sonata have been popular enough that there's lots of feedback available in the forums about them.
Toyota Yaris (2007) - Not one of Toyota's best efforts but isn't a bad vehicle.
Mitsubishi Galant/Lancer (2006-2008) - Mitsu gets a bad rap sometimes but they're not bad cars. That perception about Mitsus can make them a good value used as they'll generally be less expensive than the competition. For your needs I'll say their fuel economy probably isn't as good as the competition. As my wife is a 2-time Hyundai buyer I'm a 2-time Mitsu buyer. I had a '99 Galant and sold it after over 10 years & 152K miles for a '10 Outlander GT. I'm very satisfied with the quality of the cars.
Nissan Versa (2007-2009) - I think the Versa would be a good choice.
In general, in the smaller cars you mentioned (Aveo/Rio/Yaris/Accent) you want to make sure you have enough space for whatever you'll be carrying & that the child seats fit. Try to get a feel for suspension during test drives as small cars can feel jittery or overly firm.
Your best balance in space, comfort, and economy will be the compacts. Spectra/Elantra, Lancer, and Versa are probably your best bets among your list.
Sonata/Optima/Galant are bigger. More space but less economy. Sonata is the best of the three, though given your years I'd shoot for a 2006+ as that marked a new & better generation of Sonata. Galant might be the cheapest of the 3 to buy, though, depending on your local market.
Used car prices are seemingly so volatile lately that I don't want to say if the price range is appropriate. They seem to be, but I'm in Chicagoland & not SF and there will be regional differences.
On the used midsize front you might also look at Fusion and Milan. Even the mid-2000s Malibu is a decent car; a friend had one and was satisfied until the car sacrificed itself to protect him in an accident.
Regardless of who your buying from - dealer or private seller - there should be a little room to negotiate. How aggressively you choose to negotiate is up to you. I would think that you could offer $1K-1200 under an $8K asking price and find a middle ground you can live with. $7200-7600 would seem pretty fair to me.