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Comments
250-300hp is all anyone ever has or will need in a car in the U.S. that doesn't serve duty on the weekends racing. That is, if they keep the weight down and put it together properly(I'd have said 200hp, but apparently the days of 2600lb M3s are long gone).
Oh - and I won't look at, won't lease, won't even kick the tires unless it's RWD and has a manual transmission.
540i
M5
Bother are V8s... The std. CTS should have a V8 option and a 6.0 in a std CTS would walk on a 540i, and the CTS-v would be at least an ample if not walk all over an M5.
-mike
That you'd make this comment about a BMW is interesting because BMW was *the* car company that proved that you didn't need a bigger engine than the others to completely kick their butts to (random city of choice) and back.
A properly made V6 can pummel most V8s day in and day out if it's designed right. And I think GM can do this with the 3.6.
I'm going to enjoy seeing the 08 CTS up against the 5 this fall. It should be fun to watch the fur fly. (m5 aside, but we'll have to wait until 2009 for the CTS-V to see which is better)
That you'd make this comment about a BMW is interesting because BMW was *the* car company that proved that you didn't need a bigger engine than the others to completely kick their butts to (random city of choice) and back.
Trust me, I hear you loud and clear. I race a 2.2L Turbo H4 engine in my 94 Legacy Turbo. I routinely outbrake and outhandle vettes, especially in the rain on-track. However, in this day and age, in the USDM market, cylinders and HP/Torque numbers are king to sell to the "performance/luxury" crowd, the V8s though if engineered correctly can easily beat out the V6s.
-mike
Motorsports and Tuning Host
Oh - and I won't look at, won't lease, won't even kick the tires unless it's RWD and has a manual transmission.”
Clearly, you have strong feelings & opinions about things like manual transmissions and how much HP is “enough” – for any car in the U.S.
While you are certainly free to choose whatever you want to buy or lease or test drive, based on whatever criteria you want – I prefer to retain that same choice for myself. My own Daily Driver has 400 HP. And an automatic trans. And over 2/3 of all Corvettes sold ( as of Model Year 2006 ) are automatics – a percentage that would dictate that if only a manual trans. was available, the cost of the Corvette would have to be substantially higher. Due to spreading many fixed costs over far fewer units.
I’ll be quite happy if the CTS-v has a manual trans. But I won’t seriously consider purchase if no manumatic is available. One reason that I waited to purchase my Corvette was the fact that until Model Year 2006, no manumatic was available.
You buy what you want. If 200 HP ( and 2600 LB ) is what you want, good luck! I am very happy with twice the HP and 3200 LB.
- Ray
Not interested in judging what anyone else wants or needs . . .
To each his own, and I hope they offer the CTS with an AT as an option.
-mike
See below list - 10 quickest Corvettes.
- Ray
Funny........
"CORVETTEFORUM.COM C6 Corvette ET Rankings
Times are received from all over the country and are not corrected. Because track and weather conditions vary, this list ranking does not, and can not, identify the fastest cars or drivers in any particular order. It only lists the recorded times, regardless of conditions, in order from quickest to slowest. In cases where ET is the same, the higher MPH determines list order.
Showroom Stock
12.21 @ 115.45 - LS1LT1- 06 A6
12.23 @ 115.58 - 06C6FVR - 06 Z51 M6
12.31 @ 114.82 - CYA Vett - 05 F55 M6
12.42 @ 113.90 - DrRichie - 05 Z51 M6
12.42 @ 112.99 - Jlking - 06 A6
12.49 @ 114.90 - Jschindler - 05 Z51 M6
12.53 @ 113.00 - Wicked07C6 - 07 Z51 M6
12.54 @ 113.74 - Tony96LT4 - 06 Z51 A6
12.54 @ 113.24 - NineBall - 05 Z51 M6 - tstat
12.56 @ 113.39 - Red Sleeper -06 A6"
From reports I have seen, the 335d – with TQ = 428 ( yikes ????? ) would likely be fun to drive.
Who knows if it will make it to the U.S. – in time for you – or ever . . .
Best of luck!
- Ray
Wondering what a twin turbocharged, diesel 3.6L V6 would do in a CTS . . .
ATs are often times faster in the 1/4 mile.
-mike
In twisties, all the power in the world won't help you if your car is 3600+lbs and the automatic is playing games with you instead of keeping the thing in 2nd gear all the time. And then there's the almost universal wide-open-throttle lag while the torque converter unlocks and gets out of the way before a major down-shift.
Ick. A CTS with manual is definitely the way to go. Now if they could just manage to drop 400lbs...
Oh - and as for weight, weight is the enemy of performance, pure and simple. A 3600lb 3 series is going to be a mess in twisties unless you spend a lot more money on beefed up components and technology(which you pay for of course) compared to just making the car light to begin with.
An Altima can come in at 3000lbs and it's not a subcompact, so something has gone horribly wrong of late if we are considering 3400-3600lbs as "sporty".
So sometimes you have to give a little. For instance the folks who will be driving the AT version of the CTS are willing to give up a bit of the control and power etc. afforded to those folks who take the MTs for the lack of having to clutch, etc.
My Legacy race car that has a stripped interior, and removed sound deadening material was just weighed this past weekend and it dropped down about 600lbs from 3100 to roughly 2500. After adding in the cage and safety gear it came back up to 2700 lbs but still fairly light, but unacceptable for anyone to drive on the streets. If we took out the windows and power window motors and replaced the body parts with aluminum and removed the whole bumper beams we could get her down to 2300 easily, maybe less, but we aren't due to weight requirements for classification purposes.
-mike
I don't remember anyone complaining fifteen years ago about the noise of a 5 series.
It's not 15 years ago. Things were different then than they are now. Curious if there are any interior dB ratings from then and now?
-mike
I read somewhere that 335i coupes with sports package (that may be all of them?) come with a ZF AT in lieu of the GM AT, and the ZF has better performance (faster shifts). And the new 5 series offers a more performance oriented AT on the 535i and 550i, which I asssume is the ZF AT.
Does anyone have experience on how the AT in the current CTS compares to the AT in an IS350, G35, or 335 for example?
Thanks
Bruce
I wasn't at all fond of my autotrans in my first Audi in years to have one (in a then new 1997 A8.) Subsequent A6's (2 of them) with V8's and 5 speed tiptronics did little to improve my opinion of them.
Then I drove a DSG equipped Audi car and an Audi called an "S6 Avant."
Both of these cars had entirely different "feels" -- and this change in feeling could be attributed to the transmissions.
When time came for my next car, figuring we were doomed, I ordered an Audi allroad with a 6 speed manual. Time passed. Six speed and seven speed transmissions (and CVT, DSG and SMG's) became more readily available.
When I shopped for a new car, there was ONLY one stick -- a REAR wheel drive BMW 5 series -- in the LPS crowd. Not being a fan of only two driven wheels, I went with another Audi, this one with a 6 speed tiptronic.
The responsiveness of the transmission at this stage of development has greatly improved. Yet, the standard fare autos from the Germans still seem to want to outthink their hapless drivers. The current breed of autos WILL shift very rapidly. Unfortunately, left to their own programming, they tend to upshift early and downshift late (for my tastes.) They are often "this close" to shifting, but it seems to come a second+ too late or too early.
The remedy? Run the thing in sport mode. Now THAT's the way I remember the old autotransmissions of yesteryear -- shifting at higher RPM's, always keeping the engine close to some torque sweet spot.
The transmissions today seem to put economy ahead of performance. Software can be made to address this, that much is clear.
The DSG (but currently NOT the SMG), too, would be an acceptable alternative, but, alas, is years away apparently from being offered widely.
In the mean time, BMW (in the LPS group) and perhaps Cadillac in the new CTS (not in the LPS group) will be the only manual games in town.
Our laments and arguments will not (or so it seems) broaden the availability of manual transmissions.
My belief is that the autos have and will continue to improve -- and it is also a hope.
Hope, unfortunately, is not a strategy.
Drive it like YOU live. :surprise:
Good luck in finding one at a dealer.
I don't doubt that software is a factor in the performance of an automatic. But I assume there is a limit to what can be done with s/w, and hardware is a factor as well since one particular manufacturer offers automatics from two different manufacturers.
The current CTS has a 5 speed auto, and the 08 CTS will have a 6 speed auto. I'm curious whether the auto trans in the 08 CTS will be as responsive as the GM sourced unit in the BMW 3 series.
Thanks
Bruce
The 335i now uses a ZF unit:
ZF 6 HP 19 TU, 6-speed
- Ray
Also curious about the 6 speed automatic in the CTS......
Thanks for the info. Do you know which AT is used in the 335Xi?
Back to CTS, I should have been more specific and asked how the '08 CTS 6 speed is expected to compare to the 6 speed GM auto in the '06 330Xi, which I own, and the '07 328 cars.
Thanks
Bruce
http://www.gmfleet.com/pdf/2008_car_and_truck_guide.pdf
(10 meg file) on page 43-4, the CTS will have 6 speed auto standard, with manual optional. It doesn't have prices. The online ordering guide lists manual as standard and auto as optional. Perhaps they're no-cost options.
If Caddy sees BMW 3 and \ or 5 as competition for the new CTS, the state of the automatic transmission “art” seems an important point. One article with a lot of technical information is here:
http://www.just-auto.com/article.aspx?id=90340
2 particularly interesting quotes ( to me ) are:
“The 2nd generation 6HP can jump over a gear completely, or even three gears when going from 6th down to 2nd, or 5th down to 1st.”
and
“In particular, the TCU is able to ask the ECU to 'blip' the engine speed, at certain times during the shifting process, to ensure a smooth gear transition. In addition to its usual task of determining the right gear for the conditions, the TCU also monitors the driving style of the driver, and adjusts the shift strategy accordingly.”
[[ Translation: “rev match on downshift” ]]
These two features are areas where the current ( my 2007 ) 6-speed GM automatic is not particularly stellar. Meaning, in my Corvette, it will not do either.
I have hopes that the 2008 version ( in the Corvette and in the CTS & STS ) will be further developed and will provide features like these – that contribute to the smoothness & the responsiveness.
We’ll see . . .
- Ray
Ready for my test drive - now.
Yet, I would test the new CTS 300HP AWD in a heartbeat.
Drove the 335 and the 328 (xi), haven't driven the 535xi -- and frankly I can't see spending "your money" on some of these (the value proposition does seem to be getting better on non German cars -- for a change -- being the reason I wouldn't spend "your money.")
The CTS vs the A5 vs the A4 vs the Acadia or Enclave or Q5 or, or . . .
The Enclave kinda made me think of an American interpretation of the VW Touareg (for about $10K less.) The Enclave was about $45K with all toys on it and premium paint even.
What is the problem with Bluetooth and American cars anyway? Or is it just GM cars (On*star?) I can't imagine driving a car that I can't pair my cell phone to and go hand and eyes free, BT makes this a no-brainer. Mention BT to most GM salesreps and its like you kicked their favorite dog -- one GM rep said, "I know, I know. . .what were they thinking?" [about not having BT in the 2008's even] :confuse:
Still looking forward to the test drive, tho. . . :surprise:
In fact, the lack of BT in the '08 CTS makes it a deal breaker when my Aug. lease comes due. I'm still interested in the car though.
http://cadillac.gmblogs.com/2007/04/answers.html
I have a 2005 CTS 3.6L with 30500 miles. At 26K I had an engine noise (a rattle just after starting for about 2-3 seconds) that started just after a LOF. I was told it was a bad starter (which I thought was weird at the time) but the dealer replaced it under warranty. The noise came back at 29K and I check the oil and it was not even on the stick. I added 3 quarts and immediately took it to the dealer for a LOF and checkup. It had about 3500 miles since the last LOF. I was shocked and somewhat naive that a 2005 Cadillac using Mobil 1 (BTW, Oil/filter change $65.00) would be burning oil at that rate with 29K on it. Now at 30500, 1500 miles since last change I am low almost 2 Qts again and I hear the noise again. I have never seen any warning lights or messages and I see no signs of leaks. My oil life is about 55-60% and between 3000-3600 miles between oil/filter changes. Seventy-five percent of my driving is highway with the rest is city getting on and off the highway. I am very fussy about my cars and watch and listen for anything abnormal. For the first 8-12K I check the oil on a regular basis because I did not have a history about this car/engine. I noticed it got dirty faster than my Chevy engines and at 3000miles it was less than 1/2 qt low and I wrote that off as still engine break in time. After that I stopped checking it, the dealer never said it was low when it was in for service. So something happened between 12K and 26K that it is now using over a quart per 1000 miles. Definitely not acceptable in my book. It was my first Cadillac and it was my last. My 87 Monte Carlo SS 305 has 110000 miles on in and don’t burn 1 quart in over 3000 miles. That’s acceptable! Oil/filter change $18.00
Power operated everything (expansion on this theme below).
Both front seats should be power operated and the driver's seat should be equipped with memory.
Heated/cooled front and rear seats (even if extra cost).
Bladder in front seats with controls to inflate/deflate.
Heated steering wheel, power articulated tilt and telescoping standard.
Servotronic steering at least
Stabilitrac with brake assist or whatever they call it.
Navigation with a backup camera plus rear, at least, parktronic sensors.
Pushbutton start. Smart key, proximity sensor.
Bluetooth with full voice control of the dialing functions.
Inside and outside electrochromic mirrors.
Turnsignals in outside mirrors.
Compass in mirror.
Heads up display.
Lane departure warning.
Automatic cruise control.
Voice activation of the sound system (changing channels, etc.)
Voice activation of the nav system.
High zoot sound system option (even if it is BOSE.)
Power rear sunshade.
Xenon articulating headlights.
"Full instrumentation."
Sat radio with integration with nav system.
Rear biased AWD (optional).
18" wheels standard with 19"'s optional.
====
Now, it does appear, the Cadillac CTS will have lots (most) of this "content." Even the more exotic content seems doable and there probably would be a market for it, even if extra cost.
Ones that were deal breakers for some of us, included Bluetooth. I have become quite a fan of the proximity feature of the smart key systems -- I can take or leave push button start, however. I have grown to appreciate the voice commands for their contribution to safe driving.
When a Ford SUV has most of this stuff and when a Nissan Altima has most of this stuff, well -- there you have it.
The Cadillac needs "more stuff" -- even at optional prices -- just to be considered a "current" vintage vehicle.
Just seems the bar (content) keeps getting higher and higher -- be a shame if Cadillac didn't keep up with the technology that is readily available.
:shades:
You can check it out for yourself through the links below:
http://eogld.ecomm.gm.com/NASApp/domestic/proddesc.jsp?year=2008&butID=1®ionID=1&divisionID=5&vehicleID=4824&type=0
http://cadillac/com/allnewcts
http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2008-cadillac-cts-1/
http://www.motorauthority.com/cars/cadillac/all-new-2008-cadillac-cts/
Hope that helps...
I posted the links so that you could see that some of the comments/assumptions you were making about the content of the vechicle were incorrect. I was simply trying to be helpful.
The autoblog link just provides photos (so you could see the buttons on the wheel, the temp control for the seats and the IP info display). The Cadillac link is updated as GM sees fit (and it has not been since March - except for a few videos) as is the GM online order guide (that was updated last week with a few corrections).
http://www.gmbuypower.com/
Build Your Own...
thebug...
Len
The top of the line M35 is nicely equipped as standard at 44K. Add all the bells and whistles and you are over 53K easy. The M35 competes with the A6, and 5 Series (on this site), but I did read an article in Consumer Reports where they lumped them altogether in a mid-sized luxury segment comparo with bang for the buck being the highlight in my view.
I'm guessing, I will be able to get everything but the sunroof at around 44K OTD. At least I hope that's the case.
thebug...
Watching how Caddy has priced the STS, since 2005 - and seeing the sales drop rather dramatically - it appears to me that GM is resolute in applying "premium pricing" to Caddys....
And holding those prices in the face of low sales.
Interesting strategy.
- Ray
Also waiting to see how the CTS pricing looks....