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The system starts in full auto, and then each adjustment you make progressively puts it in manual overrride. If you tweak all the knobs/buttons, it will be in full manual mode. If you have only messed with some controls, the system is still semi-auto, and could conceivably do the morning warmup routine.
Craig
And at the risk of stating the obvious (something I'm occasionally paid well to accomplish), yes, I am a lawyer.
But I'm ready to look for that dual-range transmission in the US market, rather than debate whether or not my profession will bring about the demise of western civilization.
57k miles here, and going strong. We found one on E-bay a while ago, also a '98, that had more than a quarter million miles!
-juice
To use a hackneyed phrase, several of my best friends are lawyers. I've purchased their valued services now and then. In no way did I intend to indict or slight all lawyers. My wrath is reserved for two groups: Those in the plaintiff trial lawyer arena who will take almost any personal-injury case, often on the most tenuous and transparent grounds, seemingly without regard for whether the purported victim's own actions played a greater role in his injuries than the defendant's, simply because there are deep pockets to be picked and gullible, unsophisticated jurors who'll help do the picking. And those who, while representing truly monstrous criminal defendants, will leave no distortion, no fabricated scenario, and no vicious attack on citizen witnesses untried in their quest to confuse at least one hapless juror into ignoring the facts and letting the thug go free to continue preying on the rest of us.
Until the "good ones" get solidly behind desperately-needed and long-overdue tort reform, and until your professional organizations begin to discipline those who leave their ethics outside on the courtroom steps, folks like me will understandably wonder why you tolerate shysters in your midst.
you should meet my friends wife!!!
(Time for a little levity eh!!:])
But what are you going to do about the 91% in law or car sales? Well, on the car sales side it would be a little easier to remedy if they were selling Subaru, but for the 91% of lawyers I don't know... unless we convert them to Subaru salespeople.
Seriously, I think it's probably more like 70% good, principled lawyers to 30% "other". But the majority will continue to be tarred by the minority until they put their collective feet down and clean house.
Omission of the email address is primarily to avoid spam. If Juice wants to get in the middle of this I'll gladly provide him my email address for forwarding to you.
I do represent plaintiffs; I also represent defendants in criminal cases, though the biggest part of my practice is family law.
Even though personal injury is not the major part of my practice I can tell you that I won't take a contingency fee case unless I'm confident that I can prevail on liability, i.e., prove the defendant was wrong, and that I can win and collect a judgment sufficient to make the effort worthwhile.
In representing a criminal defendant (or any client, for that matter) an attorney rarely knows exactly what happened. We're taught that our role is to present our client's case. There are restrictions on that duty, as there should be. For example, we cannot knowingly offer false testimony. Nor can we present a claim we know to be groundless or frivolous.
But we're also taught that we're advocates, and that it's for the court, whether that means a judge or a jury, to determine what happened. That includes whether a plaintiff's own actions were a bigger factor in the injury than the defednat's actions. We're also taught, and I firmly believe, that even a guilty person is still entitled to a defense.
I'm not claiming that the profession is perfect; I'm not even claiming that I'm perfect. I will say, however, that I believe in what I do. Often I even enjoy it.
There are a lot of other arguments that I could make in this context. One of my favorites is, "It's the insurance companies who are truly evil."
I enjoy this discussion, but still enjoy Subaru talk more.
-Dave
I appreciate and share your distain for trial liars, uh, I mean lawyers. However to simply dismiss the documented safety problems associated with first generation air bags clearly demonstrates your ignorance of the subject matter.
According to the NHTSA and the IIHS hundreds of "vertically challenged" adults have needlessly been killed by first generation air bags since their inception, often in minor fender benders they should have walked away from. True, many were responsible for their own fate by foolishly not wearing seatbelts. However a substantial number who were properly belted in were killed nonetheless from the force of the deployment. In most cases such individuals were forced to sit closer to the steering wheel than they should have because they were not able to reach the pedals otherwise.
I contacted Subaru of America and the representative who replied to me acknowledged that they still are installing first generation (a.k.a KILLER) driver side air bags. No reason was provided for this but I would suspect it is a cost cutting measure, nothing else. Considering that virtually every other auto manufacturer has recognized this problem and has discontinued using first generation air bags due to safety considerations it is inexcusable that Subaru continues to do so. Don't get me wrong...I love my '96 Legacy and will drive it until it disintegrates but I would not buy another Subaru product until they correct this glaring product deficiency. (Being over six feet I position my seat back all the way and leave plenty of room for my beer belly AND any air bag deployment.)
By the way, let's not tell the ambulance chasers about this or they'll be tailing Subaru's all over the place just waiting for something to happen.
I in no way "simply dismissed" documented safety problems with 1st-gen airbags, and to lob words like "clearly ignorant" when you have no real certainty how well or how poorly I understand the subject will win you no friends. On the contrary. Since the views I expressed plainly acknowledged that there have indeed been at least some deaths that were solely attributable to those bags, I can only surmise that your reading skills might leave something to be desired.
To review, since that is evidently necessary: My views are that the problem, to the extent there is or was one, has been exaggerated. The deaths of many or most people who died following the deployment of those bags was often not solely attributable to the bags. What is needed is a thoughtful, balanced view of those bags that acknowledges not only the comparative handful of deaths directly and exclusively attributable to them and to no other factor, but also the certainty that thousands of lives were in fact saved by those same devices. Few technologies ever invented exhibited no downsides whatsoever; when the positives overwhelmingly outweigh the negatives, we have an obligation to weigh them appropriately.
My other point was that using deliberately and excessively incendiary perjoratives such as "killer air bags" to describe devices that have unarguably saved more lives than they've claimed, by several orders of magnitude, is reckless and absurd. Not unlike calling people "clearly ignorant" in public forums.
There have not been hundred's of death associated with driver's side airbags. Also, there is no such thing as a first-generation and second-generation airbag.
Firstly, NHTSA keeps statistics of deaths and serious injuries resulting from airbags in minor or moderate crashes. They list a total of 77 cases involving drivers in the past 13 years, 28 of which were small women (they mention < 6'2" - this is probably a typo - I think they mean 5'2").
Secondly, it has long been known that airbag injuries depend strongly on the deployment direction and a host of other details. The above-mentioned statistics show that the vast majority of recorded cases involve midsize to large American cars and trucks. Only about 1/4 involved Japanese-designed cars. There are no European manufactures with problems listed, and not a single Subaru. And for the past eight years or so, manufacturers have continuously improved airbag design and deployment to the point that the Institute for Highway Safety says that drivers are probably not at risk in cars build after 1998 .
From that alone, a reasonable person should in my opinion be more concerned with other safety issues than this one, when deciding to by a vehicle in general, and a Subaru in particular.
There are also known measures and recommendation how to avoid airbag complications for small drivers. The simplest of these involves making sure to maintain a distance of at least 10" to 12" away from the airbag cover, by moving the seat as far up as feasible, not pointing the steering wheel up, and by reclining the seatback a little, if possible. Moving the seat up is very easy to do in a Forester, and given better vision, is likely a desirable driving position for small drivers at any rate.
- D.
Thank you for the links. They do much more than merely refute reckless claims that "hundreds" of deaths were directly caused by airbags. They also validate my main thesis: Of the 77 listed cases, fewer than 30 of the decedents were wearing their seatbelts!
It is intellectually dishonest to bandy scary triple-digit numbers about and claim that the airbags "killed" that many people. When occupants of moving vehicles fail to take even the most basic measures to protect themselves from harm (such as simply using the tried-and-true lap-and-shoulder belts that have been in all cars for decades), then the inescapable reality is that their deaths are more likely due to their own stupidity than to excessive force that may or may not have been applied by their airbags.
The absence of critical thinking that infects debate on subjects such as this always amazes me.
tidester, host
Heck, most lawyers never step in to a court room, right? So there's a majority, and we know little about them!
Any how, I specifically remember Subaru advertising that the 1998 Forester had 2nd generation air bags, that deploy with less force. In fact this was the topic I wrote to them about in Drive magazine, and my letter was published. It was a big deal to me because my wife was pregnant when I bought it. In the photo I'm holding the baby, even.
I think you may be referring to the latest generation of air bags (3rd?) that deploys at different forces depending upon the severity of the collision.
-juice
I bought my Cayenne Red XS Premium (auto) in June, replacing a 96 Honda Civic sedan. It's my daily driver, and we used it a few times this summer for trips up to northern Minnesota. Currently I'm at 5,100 miles (I have a short commute).
I really enjoy the car and plan on keeping it for a long time. It's fun to drive, the small size makes it practical for the city. (I live in St. Paul, the city where Jesse Ventura once said the narrow streets were "laid out by drunken Irishmen.") And I've made good use of the cargo are in back, of course. The engine seems to have the ideal amount of power for my needs.
I have the premium stereo, with tweeters, upgraded speakers, sub ... very nice. The significant other hasn't gotten used to feeling the bass in her butt in the passenger seat though
Just one bit of buyer's remorse: I'm not sure I'd get the premium package next time. The moonroof is huge, but at highway speeds it's very noisy and we usually end up closing it. The monotone Cayenne Red looks sharp, but if I had to do it over again I'd go with a regular XS.
Just one defect: The front windshield washer didn't work, but the rear one did. Reservoir was full. I took it in, it was diagnosed as a clogged "check valve," which was replaced. Covered under warranty.
I have sort of an antagonistic relationship with the climate control system, especially since colder weather set in. I leave it on manual because I like keeping control of everything, but even with the temp knob just a couple of notches above 65, it usually pumps out *very* hot air soon after warming up. I close the left-hand dash vent (which operates even when "floor" mode is selected) to avoid scalding my left hand on the wheel, but sometimes I turn it all the way down to 65 to shut off the hot air entirely. And I've never had the heat turned up even as far as halfway (75). Is this normal behavior? Would I be better off trying Auto mode? I'm used to the simple system on my Honda, where cold was cold, hot was hot and in between was, well, in between.
The fact that it's a powerful system sure comes in handy when I need to defrost the windshield though. That takes no time at all.
When I used the air conditioning this summer, the A/C seemed to vacillate in strength from minute to minute (again, on manual mode). Kind of annoying.
One question. Occasionally after hard acceleration (above 4k rpm) where the transmission downshifts, I detect a slight burning-oil smell. It dissipates quickly, and it's evident only after I hit the gas hard (often on a very short freeway on-ramp I use on the way to work). Is this something I should worry about? There are no oil spots on the garage floor.
Now that cold weather has arrived, I find myself setting mine at almost 75 for the first 10 minutes or so; then I turn it down to 68-69. During the whole drive, my right foot cooks, while my left one freezes (well, not quite, but the difference is very noticeable). My impression is that the Forester's capacity to consistently produce specified levels of heated (or cooled) air, and to distribute it evenly where desired (and not where not desired!), is markedly inferior to other cars I've owned.
I close the left-hand dash vent (which operates even when "floor" mode is selected)
I really don't like that. When I dial in "floor" mode, I don't want heat anywhere else. And unlike the left-right dashfront vents, which you at least can shut off, there's nothing you can do about the heat emerging (even in floor mode) from the little triangular left-and-right dashtop vents aimed at the windows, or from the defroster vents at the base of the windshield. Dumb. When/if I want heat high up (on the glass), I'll choose the defrost mode. Otherwise, I don't want any heat anywhere near my face, and I certainly don't expect to get any heated air at all in those upper areas when the mode I've selected says "foot".
When I used the air conditioning this summer, the A/C seemed to vacillate in strength from minute to minute (again, on manual mode). Kind of annoying.
I noticed that, too. Most cars I've owned have a "reserve" tank of refrigerant large enough to keep the system "blowing cold" during the intervals when the A/C compressor is cycled off; then the compressor comes back on and runs long enough to recharge the reserve. The vacillation you and I noticed makes me think there is no reserve at all, so that the system blows cold only when the compressor runs, and quickly stops blowing cold every time the compressor cycles off. On my XT, the difference (on a warm day) between blowing cold and blowing ambient was very noticeable, and not all that comfortable.
Overall, I'd say Subaru has quite a bit of redesign to do before the Forester's heating and A/C systems are up to par with the competition.
You may want to consider getting the moonroof wind deflector installed. My wife had the same exact complaint as you, so I ordered the deflector online (about $60 I think) and put it in. Makes a world of difference. Now we can use the moonroof on the highway and there is much less turbulence and noise inside the car. I don't care for the looks, but if it makes my wife happy, I'm happy!
As for the smell, I'd be curious to know if you smell it when the car is stationary, say when you're in neutral (with brake applied) and rev the engine up. That might help isolate the source. Also, it would be informative to know if the smell was coming out the tail pipe or from somewhere else. With the hood open, you may be able to spot some smoke if the burning was coming from the engine or something in contact with the exhaust (or even undercoating on the exhaust burning off). Subarus are known for having the smell of burnt undercoating when new, it usually wears off after a while
How short is your commute? It is possible that the car doesn't really warm up all the way during your typical driving, and it may take longer for all your undercoating to burn off the exhaust.
Craig
Bob
-juice
I apologize for using the "I" word but in no way was I assessing your intelligence. To be "ignorant" of a particular subject merely indicates that one may not possess all the information and perspectives necessary to formulate a complete and balanced opinion of the said topic. Many reasonably intelligent people including myself are "ignorant" when it comes to certain topics so don't take it so personally pal.
Regarding my previous post you apparently missed my point(s) as well so I will reiterate and elaborate for your benefit.
There is a reason why virtually all vehicle manufacturers (apparently except Subaru) now install standard dual stage front air bags for both the driver and passenger...these are statistically safer for smaller adults in fender benders where a powerful air bag discharge is not necessary. As a volunteer EMT who is privy to state police accident records, and who has scraped more than a few people out of their vehicles I can attest first hand to the importance of reducing the explosive force of air bags when it is not needed. I have seen a number of properly belted in corpses, victims of KILLER air bags, that should have walked away from what were otherwise relatively mild collisions so I know what I am talking about from a realistic perspective. To personally see tragedies of this kind affects one considerably and gives one unique insights into a problem that cannot be entirely addressed by reading published statistics alone.
Originally air bags were designed with excessive explosive force to protect the idiots who refused to wear seat belts. In the early 1990's there was actually an air bag shortage which prompted manufacturers to install those annoying automatic seatbelts as a stop gap measure. "Next generation" and / or dual stage air bags (I tend to confuse the two...so much for my own "ignorance") came about to address the aforementoned dangers of the original design. Accordingly it is not clear to me why Subaru does not install the newer, safer dual stage air bags as standard equipment for both drivers and front seat passengers. Probably just a penny pinching maneuver. 'Nuff said. Happy Holidays...
Note to Juice: you may be right that your Forester has "second generation" air bags which are depowered versions of the original "killer" bags I previously alluded to. These are an improvement over the older design but are still a compromise...not enough power for severe crashes, too much power for minor impacts. However the Subaru of America representative I corresponded with could not or would not confirm this for me. He did tell me he would keep me updated regarding the specs for the '05 model but I'm not holding my breath.
- Jeff
My bookmarks indicate that my last read was on page 554...of 644 pages of posts! YIKES! I have catching up to do, me thinks.
I've not had too much to talk about, honestly. My 2002 Subaru Forester S is at 34K miles or so. No problems since my initial fuel system problem (9 days after purchase). The 30K service was about $400 -- and that's after changing my own oil beforehand (I use Castrol Syntec or Mobil 1 -- whichever is cheaper at Wal-Mart). I thought it was rather high, but that's Atlanta for ya.
Minus a screw coming loose on my cargo cover that caused it snap open while I was drive (thus nearly causing me to have an accident -- scared me to death), the car has been great. I recommend it to anyone who is looking for a new, reliable, and relatively safe car with AWD.
On to my question -- TIRES! It's time to replace the Yokos, and I don't intend to replace them with new Yokos. I have found that the following might good options: If you can fill me on the best buy these days for tires, going from that list, I'd appreciate it. Now...about those thousand posts that I've missed. Ugh!
burnsmr4
'24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
Toss in 5 star driver NHTSA side impact, 5 star rear passenger NHTSA side impact, and the best vehicle ever tested by the IIHS in side impacts, and you can't go wrong.
No competitor matches those perfect scores in every test done in this country!
You can't call it cost cutting, because that's only if Subaru had removed those features. Subaru pioneers safety in this price class (ABS + AWD standard, for starters).
Nonetheless, Subaru doesn't rest on its laurels, and will probably continue to improve on safety features. They already did - for 2004 they added collapseable pedals, due to the foot injury scores on the IIHS offset test, despite the fact that it was already a Best Pick!
I'd like to see stability control, which is something Toyota added to all its SUVs just now.
-juice
They are by far the best overall tire I've ever driven - no real weaknesses in my 10k miles. Grip in the dry and wet is simply unbelievable. Snow and ice traction is respectable for an all-season, on par with the lesser dedicated snows, but shy of the best ones, of course.
Road noise on some surfaces is a little higher than a touring tire, but not intrusive. I drive with my windows and moonroof open all summer.
Hope this helps,
-brianV
second point - seatbelts/airbags - all great improvements in safety compared to days of old. we all know proper seatbelt usage is tantamount to improving driving safety - how about we see improved seatbelts instead of 2nd/3rd generation airbags? a 5 point restraint model like on my kid's seat would make sense - wouldn't it? i mean - that's the sort of belt race car drivers wear, the sort of belt you see airline pilots wear? why not average drivers? would seem like a cheap way to REALLY improve vehicle safety. just a thought. that all i have today. snowing like crazy right now - maybe i'll be lucky & get to tool around town after work in wifey's forester.... one can only hope
As for tires, I got Falken ZX 512s for my Miata, and they're the most responsive tires I've owned so far. They do tramline a bit, following grooves in the road, but they stick great.
And they come in 60 series sizes for Forester with 16" rims. Try vulcantire.com, mine were a bargain. CR rated them #1, FWIW.
-juice
Would this include the transportation cost?
Y'all continue to be a great informational source. Really like to see some manual shift MPG undates; especially those with well broken-in Foresters...best, ez..
Juice,
I'm done with the airbag debate; it's beyond hopeless. My concept of what qualifies as a 'complete and balanced viewoint' could not possibly be more different from "pal's". Passing the baton to you.
Jack - the other CPA
Still, let's recognize that they've done extremely well, and their perfect scores in all 4 major US tests proves only that the tests themselves need to become tougher! LOL
-juice
3,900 miles isn't yet well-broken-in, but the overall average on my conservatively-driven 5MT XT has declined to barely over 20 MPG. That's about 80% Interstate driving at only 65-70 MPH.
Craig
John
MPG Update - 3800 miles 20-21 MPG in cold weather, 21-22 in warmer weather, mixed driving, AC on when warm out, off otherwise.
-Donn
My commute's about four miles one-way, mostly city freeway with a handful of city streets at either end. So I think it's warming all the way up. Maybe I'll try revving it as per your suggestion this weekend; thanks for the ideas.
What does burning-off undercoating smell like anyway? Sort of a sickly sulfurous smell?
I am getting 22.8 since mile 250 (on the car when I bought it).
90% mountain driving above 5,000 ft on two lane roads. I drive fairly hard; 1st and 2nd shifts between 4,000 and 5,000 rpm; and I almost always drive in 3rd and 4th gears in the 2,500 to 4,000 rpm band.
This car is an absolute blast in the mountains - tons of power and instant passing!!!
We are getting snow on and off now, so will be getting studded snow tires from CostCo in the next week or so - the Geolanders just don't cut it in snow and ice for me.
Tahoe Charlie
The climate control system is really about the only gripe I have with the car. We haven't had a whole lot of snow up here in the Twin Cities yet, but I've taken it out in what snow we've had and it's really handled great. I just keep reminding myself that the AWD doesn't make me immune to sliding off the road! Don't want to find out the hard way.
ohsubeguy
Give other content in place of or reduce the price of the vehicle by the difference between the automatic annoyance and manual satisfaction climate control systems.
Just my preference. YMMV.
Thanks
I would have to agree with you that the Forester does have impressive safety ratings. Thanks for enlightening me about it having "2nd generation" driver side air bags. Perhaps I judged the vehicle prematurely believing that it still had first generation air bags on the driver side. I guess I'm a little obsessive about that having seen first hand what those well intentioned but dangerous devices do to even properly belted in people.(After several inquiries to Subaru of America I could not get a simple definitive answer regarding what sort of SRS is lurking inside the steering wheel...it was almost as if they were trying to conceal something. Or perhaps it was just a case of uninformed customer reps who lack sufficient knowledge about their products...go figure.) My original post to this forum was solely an inquiry to ascertain why Subaru would only install the "smart" dual stage air bags on one side. Personally I still believe this is a cost cutting measure that they will have to rectify in future model years to remain competitive...but that's just my opinion.
In summary all vehicle manufacturers are evolving regarding safety equipment and Subaru is no exception. I would also like to see stability control on all Subies, not just the pricey Outback VDC. For that reason alone if I were buying a vehicle today I would probably go for a Toyota that makes this safety feature standard now on its products. Honda announced that all of its models will have standard stability control for the '06 model year so I anticipate Subaru to follow suit. I really hope they do because I would like to get another Legacy one day. (By the way my 2001 Honda Odyssey has dual stage driver and passenger air bags so I'm still am perplexed why 2004 Subarus don't. But I'll get over it.
Regards,
Jeff
Ed
Chuck
Believe it or not, 4 miles is not really enough to warm up the car. I had a friend with a Honda Accord in the early 90s. His commute was about 8-10 minutes. He ended up needing a new exhaust system after 3 years, because his car never warmed up to the point where water vapor would escape the exhaust. It all condensed and stayed in the exhaust pipes, rusting it prematurely. So, that's my data point for short commutes!
The undercoating would smell like burning oil and tar, if my memory serves me right.
Craig
Craig