Subaru Forester (up to 2005)

lucien2 · December 2003

and it is true of most dealers nowadays, is the $95 an hour labor rate for service. AS dealers find it harder to make money selling the cars (because we are all more informed consumers), they're making it up on service.

speterson1 · December 2003

The link for changing the CD player in the 2001 Forester (the exact info I need) doesn't work!! Doh!! I'll contact their webmaster...

ateixeira · December 2003

My radio reception is great. This is before, when I had the single cassette player, and after, with the 6CD changer out of a WRX.

There is no catch at fitzmall. I was surprised too. That price even includes freight. Just add $49 for processing, then tax and tags. They can do out of state purchases. I bought a car there, before that my dad did, my cousin did, and recently my sister did. No surprises.

Try to match the price, CT is a pretty good 5-7 hours away driving. But you could train down and take the subway to fitz, then drive it home. If you end up doing that, I can give you more details.

-juice

sierratrip · December 2003

Congrats on your comp road trip Juice! It sounds like a great way to get a first hand look at the future of SoA. Plus the information and insight you gain as a result will directly benefit all who use this site for the tremendous resource it is!

Speaking of upgrading sounds systems...I have the stock single cd player and want to upgrade to a 6cd player. In a previous post I stated that my cd player looks to be a separate unit from the am/fm/cassette player. If this is true can I just buy a 6cd changer and make a swap? That way I would still have all of the controls on the stereo to operate the changer.

From looking on ebay the units I have seen contain the complete stereo package and would mean taking out my stereo as well. Am I correct in this analysis?
Or is my single cd player really attached to the system and just looks like it is unattached?
Is making the exchange something I want to tackle ie: how tough for average skill level? And is there any additional face plate or trim work that needs to be purchased and installed at the same time?

Yeah, I know it's a ton of questions but what are friends for?

)

Thanks,
Donn

ateixeira · December 2003

By the way, if you have any questions about the 2005 Legacy or Subaru's future in general, I can try to get it answered for you. We'll attend a couple of lectures, a Q&A session, plus the show stand.

There is no embargo - we can take pictures and share all info we gather.

If you have a AM/FM/Cassette unit, plus a single CD add-on, each is a single DIN sized unit.

The 6CD is a double-DIN, i.e. it occupies both those spots. So yes, you remove the entire setup you have currently.

If you buy one from a WRX, it's the best of both worlds - you have cassette, 6 CDs in dash, and it's all controlled from that one single unit.

I loved it so much I bought a 2nd one! Heck, I may put a 3rd in my Miata, if I find out the harness fits as easily.

-juice

sierratrip · December 2003

Juice does the WRX 6cd fit "exactly" where the old units would have been? No other modifications needed? And how long/difficult was the install?

Thanks,
Donn

ateixeira · December 2003

Exactly. Unplug the old harness and the antennae input, plug the same exact parts into the new stereo.

You only need the stereo itself, not a single external wire.

I'd say it's easy on the Forester/Impreza. Maybe 4 out of 10 level of difficulty.

Legacy was a little tougher, maybe 6 out of 10, due to extended reach for one bolt in the way back. I did the Legacy first, that took me maybe 2-3 hours.

Keep in mind I had experience with doing the Legacy, but the Forester took me only about an hour, really taking my time, too.

Give yourself half a day, at most. For the Forester you need no special tools, either. I would have taken pictures but instructions that were available to me already made it easy, so I didn't see the need.

-juice

wzeiser · December 2003

Just did my Forester test drive. Like the X, REALLY like the XT (I tried it just for comparison). Now, of course, I've managed to complicate the situation. Fitzmall is showing the X 5-speed at $19,200 and the XT at 23 something. Any long term advice on the XT?

ateixeira · December 2003

Oh man, that was a BIG mistake. Now everything else will seem extremely slow, even stuff that felt peppy before. Like the Porsche 911 C4. LOL!

Now you just *have* to get the XT! :-)

From what we know so far, experience has been you give up about 4mpg or so compared to the X/XS, plus it requires premium fuel. Don't think about using any less - this is a pretty exotic turbo engine.

On the other hand, it's a solid, heavily over-engineered powertrain. The pistons are forged for extra strength. The engine has a semi-closed deck block, i.e. it's reinforced. The transmission is also hardened. Basically, the powertrain is not a built-up X engine, it's a de-tuned WRX STi engine.

The STi makes 300hp and 300 lb-ft, so de-tuned as it is in the Forester XT means durability should be excellent. We've seen no engine issues so far. A couple have complained of wind noise, JB will surely chime in that he thinks gear spacing could be optimized, but I think these are nit-picks.

Check with your insurance agent to find out how much it would cost to insure. $23.3k is not that much money, a loaded Maxima approaches $40 grand nowadays. The XT actually costs *less* than the average transaction price for a vehicle (per NADA), yet it outruns many exotic cars with a 0-60 in 5.3 seconds.

Even better, it is IMO the #1 sleeper vehicle in the market right now. Noone knows how quick it is, including the police!

Join me in suffering from Xtreme Torque (XT) Envy. My '98 was perfectly fine until I sampled the XT. ;-)

-juice

ateixeira · December 2003

Walker - give them a call. It's really cool to be quoted in a publication. PRLady has put me in touch with journalists several times, and a few have been printed.

Looks like she got promoted to PR Director, now. :-)

-juice

lakepop · December 2003

Sorry the link did not work...try this

   http://subaruparts.com/guides

  Once you access...click on installation guides at top of page....

  Good luck.....if you need more help ..I might be able to download it and email?

ballistic · December 2003

JB will surely chime in that he thinks gear spacing could be optimized,

Nope. People will decide for themselves whether the spacing and final drive are perfect or problematic. My views, and the reasons for them, are well known.

p0926 · December 2003

Walker- I agree with Juice, BIG MISTAKE test driving the XT. Especially if it was "just for comparison" purposes. You would have been better off test driving a Porsche :-)

-Frank P.

ateixeira · December 2003

Yeah, if you had driven that Porsche 911 C4, you still might have bought the XS. ;-)

JB: I'm speechless. LOL

-juice

once_for_all · December 2003

an XT. As an XS owner, I was proud of redlining in 4th gear before getting passed by a WRX. Pride can turn into shame in a flash after experiencing an XT.

John

stever · December 2003

Subaru Crew chat begins in ~ one hour. Link's on the left.

Steve, Host

subarusaleshou · December 2003

I thought chat was on Thursday. What day is our chat?

stever · December 2003

dang, I'm way off. There's a link up for the all member chat, and I'm not sure about that....

Bob's not answering my page :-) D'oh!

Steve, Host

rsholland · December 2003

is in a different time zone this week.

Bob

stever · December 2003

I got a new computer up and running yesterday - all bets are off :-)

Steve, Host

crayon · December 2003

Hey guys--This is my first post but I've been following Edmunds for several years. My wife recently totaled her 1999 Forester (not her fault and she wasn't hurt) and I bought her almost an exact replacement - a 2004 X. I have two questions: First, what size bolts are used for the license plate? The dealer stuck sheet metal screws into the plastic holes to hold the temp tag, saying that's all he had. Second, will the amp/woofer from our 1999 Forester fit the 2004 model? Any help will be appreciated.

c_hunter · December 2003

I believe the sub will work, but you will need to have the sub wiring harness from the old car (it connects into the radio harness behind the dash, and runs along the console to under the seat). I've heard that buying just the harness can be expensive (like $100 or so).

Are you talking front or rear plate mount? (or both?) I may have some extra screws for the rear plate that I can give you, but really, any suitable sheet metal screw will work. I think it's a #12 sheet metal screw (or something close to that size). On my wife's Forester, I actually got some longer stainless screws so that I could use 1/4" nylon bushings to put some space between the plate and the hatch surface. Otherwise, the plate was rubbing on the paint. I used oval-head screws with finishing washers to make it look good.

Craig

speterson1 · December 2003

That link worked fine, I got the pdf. What a great file, spells out everything really clearly! I was thinking of taking the car into a shop and having them do the installation while I watch and learn, but with the guide I'm confident that I can do the job myself (and save a few bucks as well). Thanks again!

Steve

wzeiser · December 2003

All right, I just finished my final test drive. The Element EX AWD 5-speed (I drove a Forester X manual yesterday and then made--apparently--the big mistake of driving an XT manual). Here's where I am. The Element is now out of the running. There are some advantages (cargo, shoulder room), but only a few, and part-time AWD, relatively poor crash tests results, and the worthless sub-700 pound payload are in no way compensated for by these minor plusses.

Then I read the "Consumer Reports" article in June 2003 that rated the Forester well above the Element. No need to go further.

Now on to the Forester itself. X seems to be a good, solid all-around, practical vehicle. Good gas mileage, responsive in the manual version, etc. And at incentive-impacted low prices, it appears to be a good value.

However, as I mentioned, I loved the XT!!! The seats in it seem much more supportive than the X or the XS (is this really true or was I just overly-influenced by what the vehicle was doing off the line?), and the performance--well, it's apparent that I don't have to convince you guys of it!

Aside from the performance, the more sophisticated AWD system, and the premium audio (big asides, I admit), it appears to be more or less the same vehicle as the X.

All right, I am leaning to the XT. So I go to the Edmund's True Cost section and I find that it costs about the same to run for 5 years, in large part because it's expected maintenance costs are significantly less than the X version. I tried to understand this, but neither the Edmund's site or the Subaru site could elaborate. Can anyone help?

ballistic · December 2003

Does the True Cost factor in the significant difference in fuel cost-per mile? The XT's lower MPG coupled with higher-cost 91-octane fuel translates to about 30% more per-mile gas cost.

I'm unaware of any difference between the XT seats and those in the X/XS, other than the color and design of the seatcovers.

njswamplands · December 2003

my wife has staked out her turf on the XT like a doobie protecting its home, not that i am calling my wife a dog but she does growl at me when i suggest she commute with the odyssey for one day.

p0926 · December 2003

Aside from the performance, the more sophisticated AWD system, and the premium audio (big asides, I admit), it appears to be more or less the same vehicle as the X.

Walker- That's certainly oversimplifying it. The XT also gets all the extras that the XS has over the X. Such as the all-weather-package, 4-wheel disc brakes, larger side-view mirrors, alloy wheels, etc. Still, the X is very well equipped (it compares favorably to the higher trim levels of the competition) and I have to admit that the X probably offers the best overall value (especially if you don't test-drive the XT!).

In regards to Edmunds' True Cost section... while I think that Edmunds is an absolutely invaluable resource (for both car buying research as well as enhancing the ownership experience), I've never really paid any attention to the True Cost section (I quickly decided that their figures didn't pass the common sense test).

-Frank P.

stever · December 2003

The TCO tool is right on with my '99 minivan. I've been keeping track of all expenses in Excel since day one. Then again, I don't always know what day of the week it is.

There's a rumor that there's a Subaru Chat tonight - check your local stations for details :-)

Steve, Host

wzeiser · December 2003

OK, I'll take the "True Cost to Own" as a only a guidepost--but, I still wonder why the maintenance in the 4th year is estimated to be almost $1000 less for the XT than for the X.

Jack, FYI, in the TCO section for the 5-year fuel cost they do distinguish between the XT and the X, but not by an icrease of 30% (which I agree would be more logical given the EPA estimates and the price of premium gas).

Maybe it was just the sportier seatcovering which made the XT feel more comfortable (I thought the fabric on the X was OK, but that the XS was not to my liking). Maybe it was because I drove it after the X. Maybe it was because I was pinned to the seat by the acceleration.

Frank, I concur. The more I investigate the XT and its features, the better it looks--except the mileage. A MAJOR GRIPE THOUGH: The XT does not have a moonroof available with a manual transmission. What's up with that?

Steve, what can I do to get on the Subaru Chat, and when is it happening?

p0926 · December 2003

Walker- Chat is at 9:00 pm tonight. Just click on the "Subaru Crew Chat" link near the top-left corner of this page.

Hey, you're going to have to get at the back of a long line if you want complain about the lack of a moonroof option for the XT manual ;-)

-Frank P.

once_for_all · December 2003

I purchased the XS over the X (XT wasn't out yet in February) for basically one reason: the dealer didn't have an X 5 speed in silver or white. I don't regret it though, I have really come to appreciate the heated seats and better interior materials. The alloy wheels and rear discs are nice too.

BTW, the AWD systems are identical with the X, XS, and XT (aside from the limited slip rear differential on the XS and XT).

John

subarusaleshou · December 2003

is 9 eastern time. Don't forget to adjust for time zone where you are or you'll miss it like I did the first time I attempted to join in. One of those brain fart moments that appear at 45+.

kens · December 2003

There may be another difference between the X/XS and XT. The XT 5MT has been strengthened over the previous model. The unanswered question for me is if Subaru just used the XT 5MT in the X/XS.

Does anyone know?

Ken

c_hunter · December 2003

If I were in the same position as you, Walker, I'd be sure to consider fuel costs. The XT gets lower MPG and requires premium fuel. I don't mind buying premium, but I have a mental block about any vehicle that is rated for less than 20mpg city. You could probably do better than that, but I have seen several people post who are doing worse than that (probably they are having a lot of fun though!). Just something to keep in mind. I take a lot of satisfaction in regularly getting 22-30 mpg in our Forester XS, Outback, and WRX. They are all very fuel efficient cars, even the Outback with the H6 engine!

No matter what trim level, the Forester is a great car. I really love driving my wife's XS. It is fun, practical, safe, and easy to live with. The XT adds a dose of power that is guaranteed to put a major grin on your face, and it takes the car to a whole new level.

Despite the mpg, I'd probably get the XT myself. In fact, I could replace my WRX and my wife's XS with an XT and probably come out ahead in the long run. Oh great, now I'm on the fence with everyone else!

Craig

ateixeira · December 2003

Any screws ought to do, but I'd suggest something zinc coated so it won't rust.

Get the XT. Cost per mile? Who cares. Let's look at cost per SMILE! You'll probably look for any excuse you can to drive, vanish from this thread never to heard from again, LOL.

What stories are you going to tell your Grandkids? That you blew away this jerk in a Porshce 911 C4, or that you saved $3 per week?

Life is short, live happy! If you can afford it, go for it.

-juice

ballistic · December 2003

For what it's worth, my very carefully and conservatively driven XT 5MT has averaged just slightly above 20 mpg through 4,400 miles.

Maybe it was because I was pinned to the seat by the acceleration.

That could definitely explain the difference!

wzeiser · December 2003

Craig- I have been thinking a lot about the gas mileage, and I am factoring that into my deliberations. However, to show how powerful my emotions are in this matter, they have offered my reason the following: my wife's car averages 26 mpg. If the XT gets 20, as a family we're still in the "good zone." Right? How about that for a rationalization?

Juice. What did Shakespeare write? "Life is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." Well, if it signifies nothing, then the sound and the fury are all we have, right.

Leaning towards the XT.

Someone out there want to talk me out of it?

Frank, I'll try to get on the "Subaru Crew Chat" tonight. Thanks for the information.

p0926 · December 2003

Talk you out of it? Are you kidding? Heck I'm leaning so far over the fence that I'm on the verge of falling off at any moment (just got an email from dealer offering an XT for $250 under invoice!).

-Frank P.

dcdouglas · December 2003

Walker,
For me, the XT became the ONLY option. My wife and I moved to the city (DC) last year and were looking to replace a '92 Legacy Wagon. Since we dropped her Civic when we moved and went down to one car, any new vehicle we bought had to meet BOTH of our needs. The XT was it. Safety, reliability, and utility for her--SMILES (as juice says) for me. I was even kind enough to get the Auto (XT w/PP) as she requested for city stop and go. Although I would like to have more seat time (more SMILES and a sportier ECU), I can't really complain at all. It's unbelievable how good this car really is.

Don't think about it any more. Just get it.
--dcdouglas

subarusaleshou · December 2003

is a seriously good deal since there isn't any incentive to help him out... unless we're talking SoNE. They have different incentives and pricing than we do. In any event, that's an extremely good buy.

dnestr · December 2003

In the beginning I was gonna purchase the X model and even did a 25%prepayment. But the dealer sent my Forester somewhere to Western Siberia because a computer was doing something wrong. I had to wait 3 weeks more till a new ship arrives. I couldn't stand over this though they were sorry and promised to find another one as soon as possible. I was agree even if it could be the XT with $4K higher price. So now I'm the owner of the silver XT which was found by them at some East European dealer within 3 days and 5%discount for me. After first day of driving I had said Thanks the Lord, the computer did the mistake and helped to feel my self to be absolutely lucky.

BTW, I imagine how fast is the 2,5XT if my 2,0XT runs not bad at all.

p0926 · December 2003

LD- Thanks for your input. I was pretty sure it was a good deal but it never hurts to have insider confirmation :-)

-Frank P.

suydam · December 2003

If you want the XT you don't have to rationalize it. But am I wrong, weren't you the one initially considering the Element? Hardly a barn-burner. I think it depends, like the previous poster mentioned, on what you want to use the car for. If it's mostly going be used on short commutes, out on country roads with little highway use (that's me because there's no highway anywhere close!), hauling garden supplies and/or dogs, and getting you where you want to go no matter what the weather it wouldn't make much sense to get the XT, and you would want the extra fuel efficiency because you wouldn't be doing highway driving. In that kind of driving our 1999 Forester only gets around 20 mpg and I wouldn't want it to be worse than that, and we only have to buy regular gas. For us, we have another car with a V6 we take on trips that is also roomier than the Forester (it requires premium gas also). We are all nearly 6 feet tall and none of us wants to be in the back seat of a Forester for very long! But if you're going to be on the highway a lot, or doing a lot of long drives, you might want the extra power. But car buying isn't often a matter of sense. If it's what you want, then you'll always be sorry you didn't get it.

gened1 · December 2003

I have had my run of fast motorcycles then sports cars, from Triumph TR3's to autocrossing Corvettes,from turbo charged and supercharged cars and high power v8's. I loved the notion of no substitute for cubic inches and yes I was addicted. But to tell the truth I really like my 02 Forester L with all the additions and mods I have done it really suits my needs. I only once used the 427 over 130 and the rest have seen too much traffic to really get it on safely on the street. I have to agree with suydam that you need to evaluate your needs with your wants. I smile every time I drive the Forester and for those extra special autumn moments we take the Sebring limited Convertible out with the top down and cruise on the back roads and life is beautiful again. Sometimes laid back is not bad either especially on these retired bones!
Gene

darbow · December 2003

Im still up in the air over my final 2- either XT Manual or Vue V6- help me over the fence.

c_hunter · December 2003

I really can't say anything positive about any Saturn, and I'm not sure why people buy them! There are far better cars in every category Saturn competes in. I guess that's not too helpful, but it's my take on the Vue. XT, on the other hand, is a really sweet car.

Craig

cmuniz · December 2003

For peace of mind - don't drive an XT unless you plan to buy one!! It's hazardous to your mental health. lol

p0926 · December 2003

darbow- I'm very familiar with all the positive attributes of the XT but not so much with the Vue. A quick comparo shows that they cost almost the same (although the XT is better equipped) and have similiar specs (although again, the XT's are better in several key categories - but then I'm biased). So what exactly is it about the Vue that you like?

-Frank P.

wzeiser · December 2003

I take it that SoNE is Subaru of New England. You say that they have different pricing and incentive structures. Since these are the dealers I may be working with, any insights on what their pricing policies are?

I know that buying a Forester in the Northeast in December after two sizable snowstorms is not necessarily working in my favor, so I need all the information I can get.

I did check out Fitzmall and the Rochester (Victor) NY site, but they are both 6-7 hours away.

p0926 · December 2003

Walker- I'm no expert but I think that SoNE charges their dealers a regional advertising fee ($200?) that is passed on the the buyer (Note: dealers in other parts of the country will also try and get you to pay a separate advertising fee but in those instances they're just trying to pad their bottom line). I think that SoNE also has a slightly different price structure for options and possibly a bigger shipping charge.

-Frank P.

Subaru Forester (up to 2005)

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