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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA.
lemko, you really need to join the 21st century man...
Any high performance 6 banger like the Toyota 2GR, Nissan VQ, GM 3.6HF, Honda 3.5, BMW twin-turbo-6 does NOT cheapen the car in anyway. They only make the old V8 pushrod looks like a POS. In this day and age, any V8 that puts out less than 300 HP should be put in a museum up for exhibit and I meant a history museum.
I don't remember what you drive exactly but I am sure it has a V8 in there. However, I'll be willing to bet that many cars out there with those high performance V6s will have no trouble smoking your pushrod V8 Caddy (or Buick) without any sweat. And that's including the Camry, Accord, Altima and the 08' V6 STS :surprise: .
And, what's your point?
Many of us old dudes like the ease of entry and exit of the large SUVs. From where I am many young people also like the large SUVs. I'll be danged if I am going on a long trip cramped into a little car. If my wife liked the looks of the Escalade it would be in my garage right now. She is leaning toward the smaller GL320 CDI, whenever CARB gives the go ahead for diesel.
You seem to want to ignore the facts. The Escalade is one of the main reasons that Cadillac is doing so well. Even with $3 gas the Escalade sales are 15% higher than last year this time.
Is Cadillac the standard of the World. Not in my opinion. I don't see any brand as that. I would imagine that Mercedes as a brand comes the closest the World over.
Ease? It seems to me the ideal seat height for entry and exit is about six inches below the hip, while the Escalade is well above that which would require some rather tricky climbing to get in and out of.
http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2007/HPT%20Library/Premium- %20V/2007_46L_LH2_STS.pdf
I will have to agree with lemko that the base V6 STS is a bit plain compared with the old FWD STS which had a lot of wood trim. The styling of the new STS's interior leaves a bit to be desired too, I think. The car magazines have all said that the performance STS, priced over $60,000, does not have a good enough interior in comparison with BMW or Audi or Mercedes models in that price range.
I'm not sure if it was the staggering blow itself that knocked Detroit into mindless inaction, or the hubris of Detroit that presumed that Japan and Europe just got "lucky", but whatever the case, the American auto industry got slaughtered in the 1980s by superior products and superior reliability.
Once you've been knocked off your horse in the middle of a pretty fast and furious race, it's very difficult to hop back on and catch up. Even IF your horse is now racing at a faster pace than the leader, it's still half a track behind and isn't going to win.
I think it was Vince Lombardi who said "we didn't lose the game...we just ran out of time".
I wonder if this will apply to Detroit or not.
I come from an American auto family (they worked for Packard Motor Car Co) so my loyalties run deep, but if I were forced to bet my life savings on one random new car taken off a showroom floor, as being trouble-free for 100K miles, I would not bet on a Detroit car over a Japanese one. I could lose the bet, but I think the odds are still with me. My two cents....
Body design was set aside in the late 70's and 80's while fuel consumption and emissions were worked on. GM did develop the large FWD platform, but the basic body design was not greatly improved until the G-body/platform of the mid-90's was put into production.
While GM was working on those things, the Lexus was introduced in the late 80's, with a mercedes like body structure, RWD and a very nice interior. Pricing was low ball to get customers into the showroom and the cars off the dealer's lot.
Detroit's strong card is still VALUE--you can get a lot more car for your money---but whether that car actually works or not all the time is still a problem.
When it comes to first year models, I have to say in Detroit's defense that I wouldn't buy a first year European car either---but I would buy a first year Japanese model.
Do you mean less than the real cost should have been? As in dumping?
That practice was used heavily in the past by Japan to undercut and open markets in US. REmember the surcharge, tariff, on cars-was that Jimmy Carter's era?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I have owned a number of Buicks over the years and have very few problems. However, I do get interested in something new after 3 to 5 years of owning a car, so usually I only keep them for 60 to 80 thousand miles.
My brother has a recent Honda with a 4 cylinder engine. The engine has needed a $3000 overhaul because of some inherent design fault, not covered by warranty (expired). So, Japanese models may be quite good, but they are not bullet proof either.
I do know the motor was under 100K and used some oil. I marveled at the size of the motor. Small. But it hauled the car and 4 adults and luggage to Toledo to Maine and back before the dumped it due to rust, headliner falling down repeatedly, not starting sometimes, deteriorating paint in areas like bumpers. She accepted the warts as just normal maintenance concepts.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Which one was that?
Someone I know with a 99 Deville also had a problem (coolant leak that was allowed to go too long) that required a new engine at a cost of $5000. This was partly covered by an extended warranty and Cadillac cover some of the cost, so the owner was not left with too much of the total cost.
Not on a '95.
First "cheapo" European car with fuel injection was 1968 VW.
DUMPING: Oh I think Lexus definitely dumped the LS400 on the market. It was easily $10,000 less than a Mercedes and a better car, too. No wonder they took the luxury market by storm. Only glitch I remember about the car was inferior leather.
In the 80s, the slogan among auto journalists was: "when the US government tightens emissions standards, the Japanese call their engineers and Detroit calls their attorneys".
To me, being "first" means having something that really works, and that is fully developed. I'd give VW credit as the "first" with practical electronic fuel injection that actually worked in mass production.
I think the early Lexi had trouble with the steering, that is true....something with the steering boxes or racks.
Lexus still doesn't steer and handle like a Mercedes, 17 years later!
They might have developed better bodies too, but the 4-door hardtop was stylish, if unsafe at any speed.
The Lexus is still cheaper than a Mercedes though.
GM did not get serious about body design until the mid-90's when they developed the G-body for the 1995 Aurora and Riviera. GM in Europe and Australia are exceptions I think.
---mediapusher"
= = =
Um.
I do not see how this announcement ( the changes actually being made to the actual production Caddy STSs for 2008 – to begin production and to be available by “mid-summer” ) is in any way “the same thing” as the “Chevrolet Volt Electric Concept Car”. This is a list of Model Year changes to an existing Caddy model line.
Anyway – my point ( sometimes I do not have time to write much in posts I make during work hours, but wanted to note here the announcement of the official changes to the STS line ) was rather that these [[ actual ]] changes, though I see them as generally positive, do not impress me as the moves Caddy needs to make to significantly enhance their brand image.
Perhaps I need to preface this here with the fact that I currently drive ( and I am overall very happy with ) a GM vehicle. Approaching 7,000 miles on a 2007 Corvette Coupe – with no quality-related issues. So far, so good. And I did very seriously consider purchase of a Caddy a while back – an STS V8.
Regardless of whether or not we can agree on a definition of SOW, the issue of whether or not Caddy can elevate the brand image & be perceived by enough potential customers as a viable alternative to BMW, Lexus, Audi, ( et al ) is what I wonder. And whether or not the Caddy sales volume can increased - by enough??
Last month, I note that STS & CTS inventories were both at well over 100 days.
(Automakers typically consider a 60 Day Supply to be ideal. )
The announced enhancements strike me as “too little, too late”. And the V8 version ( pricing issues aside ) soldiers on with the 320 HP version of the Northstar – still. To impress ME with changes to the STS, well: Add 40 or 50 HP to THAT V8 motor, and I’d be much more impressed.
I drove a couple of STS V8s. They were & are “nice cars” – to me. In late 2004, when initially introduced, they were OK – though if I’d bought a sedan in that price class, at that time, it would have been an M45 Sport.
I see the STS-v as a nice car – and again I do respect GM & Caddy’s commitment to the R&D and bringing a true RWD Sport Sedan to market - but IMHO, the “–v” is horribly overpriced.
And no MagRide – standard or even available on the “-v”?
That was one technology I found attractive, in my STS test drives.
I drove an STS-v before buying my 2007 Corvette. With better low end TQ and a trans. that worked more like the ( very similar ) 6 speed automatic in the Corvette - regarding manumatic shifting, I might have been sorely tempted.
I see the XLR-v ( at $100K MSRP ) as misguided in a couple of respects. And in no way do I see it as worth essentially twice what my reasonably well equipped Corvette cost. And it appears not to have accomplished any perceptible enhancement to the Caddy brand image.
Continued . . .
And unless Caddy becomes very aggressive on pricing, I see no OTHER compelling reason to choose a Caddy over most other competing sedans.
Aggressive pricing, to me, in this context, means not just dropping the MSRP on the STS. Though I think that would be a positive step. Additionally: A substantial revamp of the option & package bundling would also potentially help here. I would have been MUCH more likely to purchase an STS V8, if I could equip one with ONLY the options I actually want and I am willing to pay for.
Last I knew, one could ( for example ) select a fairly comprehensive Sport Package on a BMW 3 or 5 – without selecting any other option(s) or package(s).
Yet the original QAF Performance Handling Package was only available on the 1SG ( highest option package on an STS V8 ) – that starts at over $60K.
The PCZ Performance Handling Package for 2007 ( added Brembo brakes = good ) is also only available on the 1SG.
At $51.6K for a 1SE, adding $2,000 ( my estimate here, based on current $1,600 on a 1SG with larger wheels & tires ) for the tire & wheel & brake upgrade ( only ) would create a pretty complete, V8 Sport Sedan. With a Caddy level of luxury – since the 1SE is reasonably well equipped. At MSRP $53.6K.
I’d also want to be able to order the LSD ( now \ still only available as part of that 1SG ) that others often price separately at $500 - $1,000.
I just think that ** IF ** Caddy does want to compete in attracting buyers interested in Sport Sedans ( as currently defined by BMW ), then a 300+ HP \ TQ V8 Sport Sedan available for $50K or a bit less MIGHT attract some attention & some publicity. And ** IF ** Caddy wants to develop credibility in this segment, they need to sell a bunch of cars equipped as Serious Sport Sedans. And not ( only ) as Luxury Sedans – and ( OBTW ) if you insist and if you buy every other luxury bit we can think of, we WILL sell you one with a Sport Suspension & Brakes – if you insist. “But we’ll have to order than for you, Sir. No, Sir, we don’t keep anything like that in our inventory for test drives. . . But our STS-v is very Sporty, Sir – and only (?) $75K.”
( sigh )
We’ll see.
I do see a Caddy Sedan with V8, the 6L80 six speed automatic and true sporting intentions
( vs. the CTS-v, a materially different sort of sedan – rather narrowly focused and available now, still only with that 6.0L V8 and only with a manual trans. – and essentially NO OPTIONS )
and available at an MSRP \ actual transaction price near or below $50K as having real potential to move the brand forward.
** IF ** that is & continues to be the direction Caddy chooses to move. The CTS-v and the STS-v and the XLR-v suggest that they are serious about spending money on the Sporty Side.
In fact, I do see the CTS-v as something Caddy ought to be able to build upon, in the Serious Sporting Sedan Segment. ( SSSS ??? )
Again, We’ll see.
In this context, I see the improvements to the V6 STS as worthwhile – but leaving the V8 essentially untouched does not impress me.
- Ray
Not a potential Caddy buyer – today.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Of course hindsight is always 20-20, but it seems that in the 1960s there were all these ripe fruits ready for the pickin'---well developed technology, but GM chose to stick with tried and true.
Welcome to the Global Automotive Industy...any company sitting on its fat butt right now is in danger of being dealt a nasty surprise. There's no resting on laurels anymore, like Rolls, Cadillac or Mercedes did.
Again, a great example of how competition would have improved the breed.
I think that GM's hydramatic somehow routed some of the engine's torque "around" the fluid coupling. I do not understand how this works, but a transmission book (history) that I have looked at indicated that this was done. I do know that the Cadillacs up through the 1963 model year were more fuel efficient than those beginning with the new turbohydramatic in model year 1964.
Meaning what? Looking only at the suspension, for example:
BMW 530i from their web site:
Sport Package
Sport suspension calibration
Active Roll Stabilization(ARS)
18x 8.0 Star Spoke (Styling 123) alloy wheels, 245/40R-18 performance run-flat tires*
Shadowline exterior trim
20-way power multi-contour front seats (includes articulated upper backrest, 4-way lumbar support, passenger’s-seat memory, and active head restraints with adjustable side and thigh support)**
3-spoke leather-wrapped multi-function sport steering wheel with controls for audio system, cruise control, and Bluetooth wireless communication for hands-free mobile phone***
$2,800 – and available no matter what else is or is not ordered. But as shown, this includes a substantial upgrade to the front seats. Not a bad idea to include additionally bolstered seats – but in my pricing for the STS, I am only adding the wheels, tires & brakes to a 1SE.
[[ Caddy could certainly add the front seat cooling as a separate option & I’d be very appreciative. ]]
Anyway, I see nothing in the 1SG trim that would effect the cost of substituting wider wheels & tires and upgrading the brakes. What am I missing?
And yes, I’d basically want to “cherry pick” options, when there is no true & real dependency between them. Sure, offer me a package of popular options, at a discount. Offer me 3 at the price of 4. Fine. But what I am really asking here is that GM \ Caddy NOT force me to buy ( for example ) an upgraded stereo and a DVD NAV system in order to upgrade the wheels, tires & brakes. And add the LSD.
Makes no sense to me. They are in no way interdependent, from any standpoint – except marketing. The current Caddy STS option packaging on the V8 ( my personal focus ) strikes me as a basically good idea run seriously amuck.
Last year, for example, Caddy DID separate out the sunroof from all packages. You may now have or have not a hole in your roof, regardless of package or trim level. Why not extend that thinking to other options?
Just my ideas . . .
And rhetorical questions.
- Ray
Again, at one point, a very serious potential STS buyer . . .
This will have a 300+ HP \ TQ motor – though a 3.0L TT straight six. And though rated at 300 \ 300, seems from many reports here & elsewhere to be even more under-rated than most BMW motors. And with a 530i now starting at $47.xK, I expect that will mean the 535i will start right at $50K + Dest. & Handling & Dealer Prep. And just over $53K for a 535i with their Sport Package – and no other options or packages. [[ What I have read on other forums corroborates this pricing. ]]
And with a pretty competent ( and sporty ) suspension as standard, for that $50K base price.
Again, I am only suggesting that BMW is widely considered to be the Gold Standard from a performance standpoint in the Sedan realm. And if Caddy seriously wants to compete, they need to offer something to go head-to-head against the 535i for 2008. And I don’t see anything on the horizon to suggest that the STS will offer such a package.
And I guess I am sentimental ( or stupid ) enough to be disappointed by that. After all Caddy has done, they still don’t have something to compete with the most obvious RWD Sport Sedan competitor. And no, at 296 HP but ‘only’ 268 TQ, I do not expect that the STS V6 will be able to post competitive acceleration numbers. It may prove to be a lovely motor – but won’t provide the acceleration in the STS that would make it comparable to the 535i.
The 335i with automatic has posted 13.6 @ 104 in Automobile magazine testing. Based on the weights, I’d expect the 535i to be 13.8 or 13.9 at over 100.
I have not seen the new STS 2008 Order Guide, so Caddy could still surprise me – but I remain skeptical.
- Ray
Not a born skeptic – but developed over many years . . .
At the time the Lexus LS400 was introuced, Cadillacs trying to compete with it were an ABSOLUTE JOKE.
If they were competing just fine we wouldn't be having this "Standard of the World" discussion.
As far as GM (another thread). I think they should use their extensive manufacturing in China to make cars. Lots of cheap cars. It is obvious that is what the bulk of Americans want and buy. I doubt it will take China as long as it did Japan to build a quality car for the masses.
Might I add engine sludge?
By the way, what's the warranty on that?
IIRC 4 years/50k miles
I would feel insecure to keep it around much longer after the warranty (powertrain) expired.
Oh I don't know, that 5.7 liter engine and 6 speed manual is pretty good, It should give me plenty of miles after the warranty expires.
Why's she still keeping that Toyota anyway since it's in the shop almost every other month.
Because she is a true believer that will think that Toyotas are perfect regardless of their experience. She is not the only one I have met with that perception.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I'm thinking they don't care but so much. They are seeking their fortune in more inviting climes.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
There was a big stink about this but nothing came of it---or maybe it did, in the form of quite a few new domestic (USA) manufacturing plants for Japanese automakers....
The prices on all sorts of Japanese cars went through the roof in the early 90s: 300ZX, Supra, Legend, etc.
1/90: 144.98 yen per dollar
1/93: 124.04 yen per dollar
1/96: 105.75 yen per dollar
Noooooo