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Comments
What does this have to do with being a "GM lover"?? Color, colour... warranty, warrantee ... who knows.
Just joking here.... but, I can see the look on your wifes face when all of the "saved-up" GM points have topped out and you surprise your wife with an "Aztek". Instead of saving the points for a free vacation (two kids will make you want a vacation) to Hawaii or something. Instead, you might save $2/3K on a car that will depreciate more than that on the day you drive it off the lot. Was it worth all of the effort in saving? Couldn't you see the guy, 25 yrs ago, bringing home the AMC Pacer feeling all puffed-up with pride and glowing with happiness by using his "AMC" credit card. Mark
The Aztek is NOT being redesigned next year. This is what IS happening...
By the fall, dealers will start seeing the 2002 Aztek models with exterior modifications. Anything plastic on the exterior (front/rear bumpers, side skirting, protective cladding, grille, front/rear lighting will be changed and (with the exception of the lights of course) will be painted the color of the vehicle vs the gray we have now. The cladding over the wheels will lose the flat look and become round so as to make the wheels look larger. Many have complained the wheels look too small (a hippo on tip-toes). Also, look for more black paint applied to the window/door sills (upper) and roof with the only "painted" area, the c-piller (this will make the windows look more integrated and eliminate the unsightly angle at the rear hatch. Mechanically, the vehicle will be the same as it is now... they ARE looking into more power, but not by the fall. As for "gages" vs. "gauges", they've done that for years... most likely a way to save space.. but remember, most GM cars did not even use many gauges (speedo and fuel only) until recently! They've always been an option or on the high-end models. The joke was americans didn't know how to spell "gauges" because they only needed to spell "idot lights".
Also, GM has instituted low financing on 2001 Pontiac Azteks. 5.9% is now in effect according to a letter I got from GM yesterday.
Perhaps the writer of the article you read has made a mistake."
First of all, the article I mentioned quotes Robert Reuter, GM's chief engineer for joint venture program. Do you claim that you know something that that guy doesn't know???
BTW the article was published in "Automotive News" - one of the most informative and recognized weekly printed publications in the industry.
Second, what website are you talking about? If it's Toyota's official N. American one, I couldn't find much of information there.
Todd
Not true. I think you mean all of the autos made by the American companies are union made.
The majority of the so-called transplants like Toyota, Honda, Nissan are Union free.
And the market share of jusf those three companies is increasing every year.
Compare that to the market share of the former Big Three...
Also how many vehicles Isuzu, Mitsubishi and the Ford's satellite Mazda produce in the U.S.?
Next to nothing in comparison to the non-unionized Toyota, Nissan and Honda plants.
"Besides, union members don't design these shoddy products."
Yes, they BUILD them.
BTW, the NUMMI plant, a joint venture between Toyota and GM, has its workforce unionized.
The Cambridge Plant in Canada doesn't.
Both plants build exactly the same compact car - the Corolla. Interestingly enough the Cambridge built Corolla scores better in its initial quality, than the model assembled by the organized labor.
Maybe your contact is right, maybe not.
You won't have any proof until it actually happens.
And it's not my fault that your perception of the world is so outdated.
"Yeah, Lets put a vinyl top on a Cavalier and call it a Cadillac Cimarron"
"V-8-6-4, what a great Idea"
"Let's build the Vega without cylinder liners"
"Just toss some high compression pistons in the Olds V-8 and we got us a diesel"
"Now that the Fiero is actually decent, lets cancel it"
"Now that Olds has good products, Let's kill it"
"Let's build the Cavalier mechanically unchanged for 20+ years and then blame the workers when only rental companies will buy our crap"
"Aztek: Looks good! Build it!"
Forbes.com
http://biz.yahoo.com/fo/010126/0126flint.html
Pontiac Aztek
Automobile Magazine March 2001 excerpts:
"We won't waste time here enumerating the Aztek's many stylistic transgressions. Instead, we'd like to salute the bold few who have taken Azteks into their garages, heedless of the calls of good taste."
"The Aztek drives loudly and sloppily, and it isn't cheap..."
"...the Pontiac is far cruder (than most SUV crossovers) in its execution, with a course engine, flimsy plastics, and a fairly ponderous ride-and-handling combination"
"...there's only one Aztek. At least, we hope that's it."
http://www.auto.com/industry/iwirj26_20010126.htm
But sales have been poor and the vehicle has
become the butt of jokes around Detroit.
Ford Motor Co. Chief Executive Officer Jacques
Nasser wise-cracked at an event last summer that
parking valets wanted to see the owner of a green
Aztek.
"There's no problem. They just want to know what
it is," he said.
Well, that's what I heard, anyway...
I don't need any more proof. The guy I know who works at the Cambridge plant is likely being transferred from the Solara project to the Matrix project. I think maybe people and writers are assuming the Vibe and Matrix will be built side by side because that's what makes sense. I'm not sure why Toyota decided to build it elsewhere.
I haven't yet had a chance to read this entire topic, although I have read from the beginning of January through the present. It seems that I need to remind some of you that the Town Hall Terms of Use does require respectful discourse while discussing disagreements.
IMO, distorting other posters' usernames and distorting vehicle names in a manner that is obviously meant to insult does not follow the Terms of Use agreement. Posts containing that type of distortion will be removed in the future, as will posts attacking other posters or other posts that in any way do not meet the TOU. You can review the agreement by using the link on the left sidebar.
Thanks for your understanding.
Pat
Host
SUV Message Board
Yeah, the Olds's are better than the Buicks, but they all still bite. They're dull, boring underperformers in every category. Buick schmuick, Oldsmobile schmoldsmobile, who give's a rats backend (sorry Rat...er, Pat). GM desperately needed to prune out some of their brands.
What's the difference between a GMC and a Chevy Truck? Can somebody explain this brilliant concept to me? Why on earth would anybody but an idiot waste millions of dollars trying to DIFFERENTIATE two essentially identical brands, instead of combining them and moving forward on the strength (and efficiency) of a SINGLE brand?
But no, the baboons at GM, after spending tens of millions of dollars updating Olds in every conceivable way (except name), decided to keep the most identical brands (GMC and Chibby Truck) separate, thus necessitating redundant ad campaigns, duplicate bureaucracies, infighting, and market cannibalism (meaning, GMC grows by converting mainly Chibby Truck buyers, and Chibby Truck grows by converting mainly GMC buyers).
Oh well, like I said, who cares. I certainly don't, aside from the amusement factor. GM gets precisely what it deserves, which is ridicule, shrinking market share, and bad publicity.
Oldsmobile was on track to nail down a distinctive, sophisticated look, but of course GM was congenintally incapable of building a sedan that didn't handle like a tuna boat and understeer like a riding lawnmower. All a potential BMW owner had to do was test drive an Aurora, realize that it was slow, heavy, and dull-witted, with a crappy looking interior and terrible resale values to realize that GM didn't know the first thing about competing against the imports.
GM is the very embodiment of corporate incompetence.
The Aztek shutdown is a setback for GM, which had high hopes for the sport-utility vehicle. GM sold 2,243 Azteks in December, far below the 5,000-per-month pace it needs to reach its annual sales target of 60,000. GM officials blame the sales shortfall on Aztek's high price and extreme design features and say changes are being considered.
(wasn't the original sales target 75k?)
http://199.97.97.163/IMDS%AUTONEWS_USAUTOMOTIVE%read%/home/content/users/imds/feeds/bellsuper/2001/01/26/DTNS/0000-2378-KEYWORD.Missing
They are currently offering $1000 cash back or 5.9% financing on any in-stock Aztek. Personally, they should be offering $2000 Cash-back AND 0.9% Financing for 60months. Maybe that will help sell these vehicles. $1000 still doesn't make it any prettier in my book. Hell, that gives you what? A Sunroof?
You have quite obviously never driven an new Oldsmobile or have any idea that an Intrigue out performs V6 Accord, Camry and Maxima in many categories. The car also has features like a Precision Control System which are generally only available on BMW and Mercedes. Going on rants with ignorant comments do nothing for your credibility.
But I have to agree with most of the criticism of GM here. I'm fresh out of college too. The only GM product that appeals to me (besides the corvette) was the Alero. In general, I thought the Olds line-up was the only one that had pretty modern looking designs.
Ford, GM, and Chrysler have slowly made improvements in their build quality and reliablility. However, whereas Ford and Chrysler spit out hits like the PT Cruiser, or successful world cars like the Focus and Mondeo, GM's done nothing to improve its styling and design.
Have you seen the latest GM concept cars? Imaj? Evoq? In my opinion, they show sheer desperation. They look like Mad Max war machines, except that they look like what the bad guy gangs would drive.
I know it is presumptuous for me to say that I could do a better job, but: hey, just about ANYONE could crack out better styles than what GM is drooling out. It's actually quite simple; Volkswagon is probably the best when it comes to realizing this:
Humans tend to associate objects with human traits, especially the human face. VWs have sorta large eyes, with smiling mouths, and overall very peaceful, friendly demeanors. Likewise, the new Celica's downward slanted headlights give it a very agressive personality. Mercedes look very stately and regal. Humans constantly PERSONALIZE things as they perceive the world. In this sense, the Aztek is a mutant, elephant-man, freak, genetic montrosity reject.
I hope that GM takes all the media criticism as a challenge to rise up to.
"What do they know? We're GM! We build it and they'll buy it. Well, Hertz and Avis will buy it. But, we'll sell them with $4,000 rebates and 0.9% financing. Sure, we'll lose money but we'll make it up in volume. Besides, people will never buy those little Japanese cars when we offer product like the Cavalier- We've made it for 20 years It's almost perfected now"
The problem is, that dealer base is eroding with competition from other, better manufacturers who can get close to the prices of GM's lackluster, subpar vehicles. When the day comes that GM no longer enjoys the dealer base and volume price advantage (and that day will come sooner than later), GM will be history.
I know precisely what I'm talking about. GM can invent yet another preposterously named component (MagnaSteer, Precision Control, etc.), but it escapes me what virtue you find in those things if the end result is a car that handles like a tuna boat? I defy you to identify a single comparison test in any auto magazine (sorry, Good Housekeeping and Consumers Union don't count) in which any Olds scored higher than any Honda, ever.
Beyond handling, the Intrigue also has a slipshod interior (the one I test drove for my mother had a 2-tone dash, and where the different tones met there was a scraggy, mismatched line, as if the darker tone were painted on with a dish towel by a chimpanzee hopped up on meth). Steering was numb and uncommunicative, especially on center. The headliner was loose and the trunk wouldn't open.
I'm not much of a Camry fan, but I can tell you for a fact that Camries hold their value far better than any GM product, they have better fit and finish, and they're incidentally the most popular cars sold in the USA. See? A car doesn't have to be gorgeous or handle like a BMW to sell well, it just has to be well-built, reliable, and otherwise unoffensive -- all traits the Aztek lacks.
Gambit -- great post. You said it far better than I ever could: "the Aztek is a mutant, elephant-man, freak, genetic montrosity reject."
The other day I was stuck in traffic behind the dreadful, embarrassing Bonneville. Looking at that big tumor's taillight, I realized that there was more fussiness, busy-ness, and general senselessness going on in one Bonneville taillight than there is in the entire Volkswagen product line. I tried to count the number of different colors it contained, but I was quickly overcome with nausea and could not continue.
Thankfully, a Ford Focus was nearby, and the sickening sense that Americans are incapable of designing and building attractive cars soon passed. The Focus contains consistent design elements, an attractive fundamental shape and look, and pretty good build quality, ideas that seem not to have occurred to anybody at GM or, for that matter, Mr. Dindak. Perhaps that's why Oldsmobile had been killed, the Aztek is a disaster, and GM continues to lose market share and market capitalization.
* Both rear door handles were "tweaked" so that the rearmost edge bows out and the leading edge was dented in. They didn't sit flush with the door.
* The plastic trim affixed to the bottom of the windshield could be easily pulled up at the corners.
* The whole front fascia was slightly crooked, and the gap between the hood and left front fender was wide near the windshield and tight near the leading edge of the hood. However, Oldsmobile did a nice job of assembling the exterior of the car and ensuring reasonably tight clearances in most other areas.
* Inside, the coin box door was misaligned.
* The passenger's side lower console panel could be peeled away from the dash.
* The plastic bezels housing the steering wheel controls didn't line up properly with the airbag cover.
* The right rear grab handle trim was loose.
* On the driver's side, the B-pillar trim was installed partially over, rather than under, a rubber gasket. One editor fixed this himself.
* Velcro tape and magnets hold the headliner in place. Pull on the headliner at the forward edge of the sunroof and the whole works rips away from the Velcro tape.
I must say, that is an impressive compendium of failure. Imagine dropping thirty large for trash like that.
Stats according to Automotive Marketing Consultants Inc.
0-60 mph : Intrigue 7.66 secs, Accord 7.79
70-0 braking: Intrigue : 176.1 ft., Accord 185.3 ft.
Slalom: Intrigue : 57.96 mph, Accord 56.89
Cornering : Intrigue .871 g-force, Accord .840 g-force
Intrigue wins all of these performance categories, and that is without PCS. If you "do not understand" PCS, then perhaps you should do some reading.
It is quite clear that you are a GM basher, nothing else. I'm sure you will go on another rant about how much you claim to know and how much GM sucks. Do so over and over and your credibility will just keep falling.
The quotes actually do not mention anything falling off. They jsut say that this or that could be pulled of peeled off.
Woop-di-doo...
I think that trim on most cars could be pulled or peeled off if one applies enough force.
P.S. that Ford Focus is borderline ugly.
only problem I've had is the trunk hatch sometimes takes two clicks to release instead of one. I'll take it in one of these days - I'm not in any hurry.
Just thought I'd remind the readers there is at least one happy Aztec owner who is happy with his purchase.
Ugly? I don't think so. If you think it's ugly don't buy one. I happen to like the looks of it!
I drive a 2000 Passat GLS Turbo 5 speed, spouse has a 98 Audi A6 Quattro Avant (wagon). We are looking for a third utility type of vehicle to replace a 96 Toyota Tacoma SR5 extend cab truck, before that we had a 93 VW Eurovan that was great, but underpowered. Did not really care for the Toyota - a minivan would be perfect to toss all our sailing/ remodeling/ camping gear/ dogs into but we just don't care for minivans as much as we've tried to talk ourselves into one.
We like the Aztek - especially it's odd styling - I like a vehicle that not everyone else owns, it's size and veratility are perfect for us. Plus we are hard on our third vehicles, we are totally anal about our primary cars, but tend to neglect our utility vehicle. The only other vehicle we are interested in is a 2001 VW Eurovan - VW's dropping the MSRP dramatically and adding a 201 HP engine for 2001. The GLS Eurovan is $26,000 the MV (with pop top and fridge under one of the seats, etc) is $27k. Our local Pontiac dealer is discounting the heck out of Azteks, we can get a base Aztek for around $18,500, I imagine I can get $1.5k to $2k off a Eurovan.
Here is our pro and con list:
Styling - don't care - neither the VW nor Aztek will win any styling awards.
Eurovan is larger inside and has some cool features and a lot of HP. The VW will cost more upfront and to maintain - very high quality interior. We wouldn't feel comfortable abusing it, we'd have to be as anal with it as our other vehicles - thats a negative.
The Aztek will be cheap to purchase, we'll drive it till the wheels fall off (150k miles) so resale is not an issue, it has very durable and proven mechanicals, nothing fancy, cheap to maintain. It has a typical cheap plasticy GM interior - no problem tossing our stuff and dogs with abandon in there. A scratch or a ding won't matter ( I doubt much would make it past that plastic side cladding anyway).
We're on the fence until the crash tests come out - If it's not bad in a crash we'll probably go with the Aztek. I know the GM minivan platform it's based on is not the best crash test wise but the Chevy Impala rates 5 stars in crashes while it's Olds and Pontiac platform mates don't do nearly as well, so I'll wait and see what the Aztek actually scores, it may just do really well in a crash - who knows?
Or can you ??? well, I guess time will tell...
-still laff'ing over this uglyness and looking forward to the 2002 version with bated breadth...
Mark
Anyway, this argument is so adolescent. There's a reason Accord outsells Intrigues by, say, 3 or 4 to 1. There's a reason it's on Car & Driver's 10 Best list virtually every year. There's a reason it holds its value better than any GM car ever built. The reason, which is beyond your ability to identify, is that more people consider it a better car. Myself, the entire automotive press, and the majority of US consumers included.
Another sign that the Accord is better than the Intrigue is that Honda is racking up profits, and Olds is being...now, what did I just read?...oh yeah, it's being SHUT DOWN. Hmmm, now why could that be? Big mystery, eh?
Jacandor::: Keep up the humorous postings. The only thing I am going to tell you Mr.Smart Cookie, is that with each GM bashing posting coming from your fingers, your credibility is eroding quickly and by the minute; however, you have become an invaluable object of constant amusement and without a doubt, your presence here makes this whole forum both Ironic and controversial at the same time.
Keep it up!
Whatever... keep on bashing bud.
teo : You are right.. it is Ward's not JD Power. I always mix them up for some reason.
btw, if GM is that smart, the Oldsmobile line has been a steady, albeit not fancy, producer of very capable cars. The demographics have tilted towards the fairly elderly (50+), but with the performance-inclined cars like the Aurora and Intrigue, these have the capability of attracting younger buyers... but alas, the axe has fallen on this line of cars. who would be next, Buick ? Saturn ? or Pontiac ?
My bet will be on the Pontias, if for nothing else, but to cover their embarrassment for producing the "concept" car - AZTEK - the single, most ugly vehicle ever, imo.... But, I'd wager GM would rather eliminate the successful Buick than the lagard Pontiac... just my opinion
The buying public generally doesn't know what an Intrigue is. Further, the general public are not car enthusiasts, they just buy whatever is well rated and their co-worker tells them to. Accord may have better resale and roll over tests, but it's far from a better car. Just ask my neighbor who had to replace the transmission on his 99 Accord, he will tell you how much he loves his car.
Let's get back to the Aztek...