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I would most likely get a Buick Enclave. It does not handle as good but would be FAR more comfortable and I believe it has more usable room. Somehow handling just is not as important when you have a sore tail end. :sick:
I would also take another look at the Lincoln MKX or a BMW X3/X5. Hopfully Ford will fix the braking problems with the Edge/MKX in 2008. If it had not been for the braking problems, that is what I would have bought.
My brother in law owns a Chevy/Pontiac delaership and I am hoping that they will get a Chevy or Pontiac version of the Enclave soon. I'll try to talk him into giving me a good deal on what ever it is called and get rid of the CX-9 at that time... ( I can't stand it much longer... )
It is probably not the worst decision you have made. You regret spending that much and then having problems of course. The seat can perhaps be modified with some sort of aftermarket device or insert. A few more dollars will go a long way toward making you feel better about the car. Also, integrated nav systems are expensive, and tend to detract fromt the resale (they get obsolete fast). Your best advice is that people purchase a portable unit if they want one, or negotiate off the cost if you have to buy a vehicle with one already installed.
Also, integrated nav systems are expensive, and tend to detract fromt the resale (they get obsolete fast). Your best advice is that people purchase a portable unit if they want one, or negotiate off the cost if you have to buy a vehicle with one already installed"
I hadn't heard this before. Aren't all DVD based systems upgradeable by getting a more current disc? What do you mean by obsolete? Maybe voice recognition is getting better as time goes by, and that's an improvement, but for entering an address and having it guide you there, they will all work well. The one in my 04 Navigator (bought used this January) does the job fine, and that was at the bleeding edge of single DVD systems
With all technologies... there's going to be bigger...better...brighter...faster... Enjoy what you have ( in general and in life ) and improve where you need. One thing I suprisingly realy like about the CX(y)9's Nav system is the "night" feature... makes a huge difference...and looks pretty cool.
One other possible option for NAV. I have Verizon Wireless and just recently upgraded to a new phone. It has NAV functionality available for $2.99 per day for single use or $9.95 a month if you want to keep it on. Have not tried it yet so I don't know how well it works. Screen is so small, you might have to rely on the voice directions. Just another option :-)
people writing off products or manufacturers for lack of must haves when a$20-$40 bluetooth headset and as previously mentioned stand alone nav setup or cheaper yet a michelin map book and there is a whole lot of money left in ones pocket from an item that does nothing but depreciate and become outdated the minute you drive it away despite the fact most average buyers will be paying for them for any number of years.
I don't have to worry about strollers and such, just me, the wife, and a big dog.
I did a lot of research on the Acadia, CX-9 and others. Since I've been somewhat of a "GMC guy", just sold my 03 Denali XL, and still have my old 91 GMC Suburban for taking the dog fishing, I fully expected to buy the Acadia.
I liked the looks, both inside and out, of the Acadia the best, but after driving one I was heartbroken. It's a pig. Ponderous would be a good descriptive term. And this is from a guy who's been driving a Yukon XL.
I liked the overall feel and the power of the CX-9 the best and bought one, an AWD GT. The tires are a little harsh, but I really don't mind. I'm very happy with it, it's comfortable, I'm 6'2" 250, reasonably quick, and economical. I'm at 4000 msl and with the cruise set at 82mph it gets 20.5 mpg. The Acadia doesn't get any better mileage than the 6liter Denali and can't stay in top gear at speed at this altitude.
Why not others? First of all I'm not one who feels the need to justify everything. Sometimes I buy something just because I like it.
MKX- very nice to drive, very plush, very quick, poor techno, stiff price, ugly front end, no HID.
Edge- same car as MKX, very handsome in my opinion, poor techno, good price, no HID. Local dealer futzed it, wanted MSRP.
VeraCruz- wasn't available here at the time, still haven't seen one
Sienna- very nice to drive, surprisingly quick, Toyota dealer wanted MSRP, wife had lip out about "van". I liked it.
Almost forgot the FS. Good driver, quicker than I expected, even the fancy one was very very stark, not quite as tall as I would like, not bad looking, no techno, no lights.
I think a lot of people are wary of aftermarket items due to warranty issues. And if something goes wrong with a mfg installed item within the bumper-to-bumper warranty, they have to fix/replace it.
Take the bumper to bumper out of it, that means nothing as stand alones have warranties as well. Even failing once or twice out of warranty with aftermarket you are still financially coming out ahead with going that route. If they fail you would wind up getting a later model anyway as opposed to being stuck with an item that if it fails after the bumper to bumper is going to be extraordinary in cost to replace and even if you replace it it will be 3-5 years old and we all know how fast the electonics world moves to market with new & improved. The gee-whiz factor of the screen in the center of the dash board has the ability to become quite a liability if/when it goes making the stand alone options seeming to be the better move. Not to mention they can be taken car to car, camping, etc.. As for the BT headset that seems to be a no brainer as you can even get them for free after rebates on the web if you look in the right places.
We all got along without them for a good if not most of our lives, while convenient, what makes sense in taking on that kind of financial hit on something financed and obsolete before it is even installed in the car.
I agree with bluetooth and navigation not being must-haves.
Specially on the phone portion of the argument. People who absolutely need bluetooth capability on the road, also need it when not in the car, therefore they **will** have a bluetooth headset.
If you are going to broadcast your call to the rest of the car, you might as well setup the phone for car-mode, which will allow answering the phone by pressing any button and use its speakerphone.
NAV is much more than just a map, though. Hop over the to GPS threads, it's all about the points-of-interest. When you start using those, you get a lot more out of a GPS.
Also, even if you do only use the map function, a good GPS is a map *and* a very good co-pilot who always knows exactly where he/she is and has a good compass.
It's much, much more than what a paper map offers. Even trip-tiks.
Maybe if it was priced more in line with a stand alone device($500max.) but the idea of financing thousands of dollars for one still escapes me as being worth it and a big liabilty if owning the car past the warranty expiration. They really are nothing more than a BIG profit center fo the manufacturers as reflected in the price of a stand alone vs. manuf. installed. A good tour book, keeping your eyes on the road and its signage as opposed to the little screen and a little homework will more than make up for one every time.
I agree that they are too pricey built-in, but maps and signs don't cut it for me in a new environment. Actually I get lost all the time tooling around town too. Some of us aren't hard wired to know where North and South are. A Garmin or TomTom would probably pay for itself in wasted gas in a year. Usually I just rely on my wife to navigate.
They have those little N, S, E and W thingeys in the review mirrors of a lot of cars these days. It also helps when the city planners were not drunk when they layed out the roads in a city. I got spoiled growing up in the Chicago area. The whole city is a big grid (mostly). The Avenues went N S, the streets went E W. If you are on an avenue and the street numbers are getting bigger, you are going south. Pretty easy to figure out.
Outlook XR FWD + Sunroof + rear DVD + HID + Enhanced convenience package + Convenience package + Premium Trim package + Touring package + Advanced Audio Package: $37,800.
The Enclave will not have rear-park assist at this price, but it looks better (IMHO) , will have a Bose sound system, a telescoping wheel, and quiet tunning.
A Garmin or TomTom would probably pay for itself in wasted gas in a year.
Absolutely.
We bought a 2nd Garmin just recently, and that same day drove to the beach. We hit a 13 mile backup on Rt. 113 south in Deleware, on the eastern shore.
I know it was 13 miles because the detour(s) I took wrapped Rt. 113, crossing it several times. I took a scenic drive and just laughed every time I saw traffic at a stand still.
20 minutes or so later, we turned off on to Rt. 26, after not sitting in that backup for even a minute.
There is no way I could whip out a map and figure out those multiple detours to Rt. 113 all on the fly like that, no way no how. It would take the best co-pilot and Navigator in the world.
Besides the gas saved, I figure it saved us a full hour at the very least. So the GPS basically paid for itself the very first day I owned it.
My old Yukon had factory nav and I learned my lesson. The updates are few and far between, like yearly at best, are very expensive, like $200, and there is no change log available so you might not actually update anything for that $200.
My CX-9 has nav only because it was free. The difference in the deal that the dealer would make on the one in stock with nav and the one he would have to get from another dealer without nav made it a wash.
I have a Nuvi 350 that I can update on the web for free that is much better than either of the factory systems I've owned.
We should probably take this over to GPS Navigation System and get back to the crossovers.
Suffice it to say, I've had compasses in the car and they weren't much help to me. I do fine in the woods or on foot but I think all that sheet metal surrounding me in a car messes up my sense of direction. Seattle is the best big town I've driven in for employing a grid system in the midst of umpteen lakes and harbors that mess the road system up. Boise has foothills and a bench with a river in between, not to mention a diagonal spur of the interstate cutting to town.
On a clear day I like to think I can see Nevada and Oregon from my house, but I have to think a sec to remember which way to look.
To the contrary.. if the dealer was firm on sticker price, then that's what the Edge must be selling for in your area. He'll actually be in business a very long time if he's able to sell vehicles at sticker.
Milking customers for a temporarily "hot" model is not a good business model for long term success. Does nothing to build a relationship with customers that will sustain a dealership in the long run far more than a quick buck that destroys any semblance of customer loyalty.
Good grief! Since when is it "milking" to ask sticker? That's the price of the product.. is it not? Besides, there are a lot of vehicles for sale today where it is understood that there is no negotiation. Don't all Saturn's go out the door at sticker? All Mini Cooper's too? (At least they do in my area) Is that "milking" the customer?
I'm gonna hafta agree... as much as I've learned in these forums... and others... I'm amazed at the "milking" statement... people need to make money to be in business... some can afford to "lose" money to stay in business... but have to make it up somewhere. Buy what you can afford... dont what you cant...
MSRP=Manufacturer's SUGGESTED Retail Price. If a dealer wants to build a long term relationship with a customer it will deal with them fairly and reasonably. A dealer who will ask MSRP or above for a popular model is taking advantage of people. There is certainly no crime in a dealer making a reasonable profit per sale, but MSRP is not reasonable. When you subtract actual cost (invoice less holdback and any other factory to dealer incentives) from MSRP, you get many thousands of dollars profit on a single sale, even on an inexpensive car. That is outrageous and makes the oil companies look like a charity. A reasonable price is invoice plus no more than $500. Anything over that is excessive. Now, if people are like lemmings and just have to go over that cliff, then I guess the dealer needs to lick his chops and put on the milking gloves. Over the years I have never paid more than $500 over invoice with me keeping any rebates or other incentives and I have bought some cars that were extremely popular at the time. I reward the dealers who act like they want a long term relationship with me (by treating me fairly) by returning time after time to buy or lease a new vehicle. I get great service and regard these people as my friends. Does one have a great feeling about his or her purchase after paying MSRP or above? I doubt it, more like a feeling of being hosed.
You may not like MSRP, but high demand = high price. Lexus/Honda/Toyota do it all the time on new models, I remember a Honda dealer asking over invoice for a new model Accord. Not a problem, just walk out. I hope Ford can make more cars that warrant MSRP.
I'm almost speechless. Where do I begin? Dealer "holdback" is only 2-3% of MSRP, and yet you think that equates to many thousands of dollars of "profit" on each vehicle. Holy cow. I think that might really blow your credibility right there. It certainly brings into question your math skills.
"That (MSRP) is outrageous and makes the oil companies look like a charity."
It sounds as though you believe a huge Federal Agency should be created to regulate what car dealers can charge for their products. (Oh, what the heck.. lets throw in the oil companies while were at it.) Where do you think that would get us hardhawk? Economic incentive is destroyed and soon you're dealing with shortages of everything that consumers want. Not me. I prefer capitalism and free markets.. thank you very much.
And despite what you think.. it is absolutely possible to pay MSRP for something and still be very happy with it.
I totally agree with these dealers taking advantage of a hot model. A dealer here knew how bad we wanted the Enclave and wouldn't give us the supplier discount, because "it's a hot car, I'd get in trouble". He agreed to do the Supplier price on the Acadia, but I'm glad we waited a day because in the morning, another Buick dealer we had visited called us and we let them know about our pending Acadia purchase. In 30 mins she called back with an agreement to lease us an Enclave CX, base model, only drivers pkg & upgraded wheels at supplier price. Were able to get our Enclave like we wanted all because SHE wanted us to be customers for life unlike the other dealer that couldn't care less about any future relationship. Ya know what? It was the smoothest car transaction I've ever had and she's got me as a customer for life!
Sheesh... Buying a car at a price you dictate is not an entitlement. If you don't want to pay MSRP, you don't have to, simply look at another dealer or another vehicle, or wait until the "hotness" wears off in a few months. The GM supplier/employee discount programs are purely optional/voluntary. If the dealer only has a limited number of a certain model, and knows he can sell them all for more than supplier/employee pricing, how can you fault him for that? Go back in a few months when the Enclave production has ramped up, and you'd probably be able to get that pricing without any problem.
Long term relationship? Not nowadays. Most people buy new every 5-10 years. Chances are that the sales rep you deal with now will be long gone by the next time you're ready to buy. Heck, the Ford dealer we bought a car from in '98 changed hands twice, changed locations, and has since gone out of business. Additionally, I've seen that the majority of people really don't have much brand loyalty any longer, so when they are ready to buy again, there's a good chance it will be a different make.
I have dealt with the same person at the Ford/Mercury/Lincoln/DCX/Toyota shop since 1987 and the same person at the GM shop since 1976. I'm pretty loyal and so are they. The DCX guy lives in my town and the dealership is in the next town. If I need service, he sets it up, picks up my car, leaves his demo for me, and returns my car. It does not get any easier than that. Even though my GMC is 6 years old this week, I still get a loaner car when I take it in for service. But, to each his/her own. Everyone has the right to buy what they want, where they want, and at a price they can live with.
I don't get that argument. Either side can say yes or no to a deal for any reason. Supply and demand are pretty basic concepts. If 10 people really want a car today and only 5 are on the lot they have to be allocated some how.
Remember it is asking price. If the dealers asks more than you are willing to pay a simple no thank you will do, or god forbid you get a back bone and make a counter offer.
A dealer is not required to meet your asking price either. IF they say no, deal with it an move on!
Granted, I suppose now there are a FEW exceptions (certain manufacturers, I believe, have a single "no haggle" price that dealers aren't free to discount, as I recall).
Some things in life are simply worth their listed price. It can apply to a vehicle as much as anything else.
Apple (one of your examples) is a case in point. No, to many of us, it is NOT worth the MSRP. So, we don't buy it. Or, in the "old days", we'd find a dealer who would give a discount "under the table" (yes, they did exist).
The car-buying world is a different animal: people have an expectation that they will get a lower price, and this is fueled by dealerships themselves who continuously advertise they will give you deals that are low low low! So in that sense, paying full retail price simply means that you didn't get the best deal possible (but if you're happy, who care, right?)
Your other comparisons are way off: for everyday items, you almost have to go out of your way to pay full MSRP: Wal-Mart and Costco always sells for less, as do many internet retailers. Heck, if you go to a mall every other store always has their merchandise on sale! And you can find Apple coupon codes on the web, or get educational discounts...
Simple question then. You have one car for sale. 3 people show up to buy it. Are you going to sell it to the lowest bidder?
Remember no one has to take the offer the dealer gives. You may never pay MSRP or higher ( I too try to avoid this situation as well) but that is a decision we all make. A bad deal to you may be a great deal to somebody else...
A bad deal to you may be a great deal to somebody else...
You've got it! If someone feels that the car is worth full value, there's nothing wrong with that. It's just that most people typically get some sort of a deal, so at the very least a buyer should try to name his price and if the dealer budges.
As for your comparison: of course I would sell my car at the highest price (or even above asking price) if 3 people are fighting for it--heck, dealerships do the same thing when very desirable cars come out. But let's face it, in real life the car will likely sit for a few days before someone looks at it, and I'd either have to give that person a deal if he asks for it or take the chance that someone else might come along and offer more. If I really want to unload the car, I'll deal with the first person that comes along. I'm sure dealerships think the same way.
..has anybody thought that maybe there is more to it than selling a car?...the dealers make most of their money in the service area and in the parts department ...sometimes the car sale part is just to feed the other 2....one I knew a dealership that the 3 parts of the business was owned by you got it 3 different people (3 friends)
Comments
I would also take another look at the Lincoln MKX or a BMW X3/X5. Hopfully Ford will fix the braking problems with the Edge/MKX in 2008. If it had not been for the braking problems, that is what I would have bought.
My brother in law owns a Chevy/Pontiac delaership and I am hoping that they will get a Chevy or Pontiac version of the Enclave soon. I'll try to talk him into giving me a good deal on what ever it is called and get rid of the CX-9 at that time... ( I can't stand it much longer... )
I hadn't heard this before. Aren't all DVD based systems upgradeable by getting a more current disc? What do you mean by obsolete? Maybe voice recognition is getting better as time goes by, and that's an improvement, but for entering an address and having it guide you there, they will all work well. The one in my 04 Navigator (bought used this January) does the job fine, and that was at the bleeding edge of single DVD systems
They upgrade the software with things like SiRF technology, too. So a new DVD disc won't make all those improvements.
The existing unit will still work, newer ones just may be brighter and faster, and perhaps better able to work with weak signals.
My Garmin has a night mode but it's much easier to read. I used them back-to-back and preferred my $300 portable.
I shouldn't feel that way given the price of OE GPS systems...
steve_, "Navigation GPS Systems" #1047, 18 Jun 2007 12:43 pm
I have "Maps" on my BlackBerry as well but T-Mobile doesn't have GPS service so it's really just a portable MapQuest, basically.
This is all more than a little lost on me...
I did a lot of research on the Acadia, CX-9 and others. Since I've been somewhat of a "GMC guy", just sold my 03 Denali XL, and still have my old 91 GMC Suburban for taking the dog fishing, I fully expected to buy the Acadia.
I liked the looks, both inside and out, of the Acadia the best, but after driving one I was heartbroken. It's a pig. Ponderous would be a good descriptive term. And this is from a guy who's been driving a Yukon XL.
I liked the overall feel and the power of the CX-9 the best and bought one, an AWD GT. The tires are a little harsh, but I really don't mind. I'm very happy with it, it's comfortable, I'm 6'2" 250, reasonably quick, and economical. I'm at 4000 msl and with the cruise set at 82mph it gets 20.5 mpg. The Acadia doesn't get any better mileage than the 6liter Denali and can't stay in top gear at speed at this altitude.
Why not others? First of all I'm not one who feels the need to justify everything. Sometimes I buy something just because I like it.
MKX- very nice to drive, very plush, very quick, poor techno, stiff price, ugly front end, no HID.
Edge- same car as MKX, very handsome in my opinion, poor techno, good price, no HID. Local dealer futzed it, wanted MSRP.
VeraCruz- wasn't available here at the time, still haven't seen one
Sienna- very nice to drive, surprisingly quick, Toyota dealer wanted MSRP, wife had lip out about "van". I liked it.
Almost forgot the FS. Good driver, quicker than I expected, even the fancy one was very very stark, not quite as tall as I would like, not bad looking, no techno, no lights.
We all got along without them for a good if not most of our lives, while convenient, what makes sense in taking on that kind of financial hit on something financed and obsolete before it is even installed in the car.
Specially on the phone portion of the argument. People who absolutely need bluetooth capability on the road, also need it when not in the car, therefore they **will** have a bluetooth headset.
If you are going to broadcast your call to the rest of the car, you might as well setup the phone for car-mode, which will allow answering the phone by pressing any button and use its speakerphone.
Also, even if you do only use the map function, a good GPS is a map *and* a very good co-pilot who always knows exactly where he/she is and has a good compass.
It's much, much more than what a paper map offers. Even trip-tiks.
Or an Outback Sport if you need AWD.
Enclave CLX FWD + Sunroof + rear-DVD - captain chairs on 2nd row = $37,750.
Outlook XR FWD + Sunroof + rear DVD + HID + Enhanced convenience package + Convenience package + Premium Trim package + Touring package + Advanced Audio Package: $37,800.
The Enclave will not have rear-park assist at this price, but it looks better (IMHO) , will have a Bose sound system, a telescoping wheel, and quiet tunning.
Outlook price summary
Combined with Saturn no-haggle policy, the Enclave is the better deal in town. Who would think?
You're reasonably quick and economical or the CX-9 is? :P
Absolutely.
We bought a 2nd Garmin just recently, and that same day drove to the beach. We hit a 13 mile backup on Rt. 113 south in Deleware, on the eastern shore.
I know it was 13 miles because the detour(s) I took wrapped Rt. 113, crossing it several times. I took a scenic drive and just laughed every time I saw traffic at a stand still.
20 minutes or so later, we turned off on to Rt. 26, after not sitting in that backup for even a minute.
There is no way I could whip out a map and figure out those multiple detours to Rt. 113 all on the fly like that, no way no how. It would take the best co-pilot and Navigator in the world.
Besides the gas saved, I figure it saved us a full hour at the very least. So the GPS basically paid for itself the very first day I owned it.
My CX-9 has nav only because it was free. The difference in the deal that the dealer would make on the one in stock with nav and the one he would have to get from another dealer without nav made it a wash.
I have a Nuvi 350 that I can update on the web for free that is much better than either of the factory systems I've owned.
Suffice it to say, I've had compasses in the car and they weren't much help to me. I do fine in the woods or on foot but I think all that sheet metal surrounding me in a car messes up my sense of direction. Seattle is the best big town I've driven in for employing a grid system in the midst of umpteen lakes and harbors that mess the road system up. Boise has foothills and a bench with a river in between, not to mention a diagonal spur of the interstate cutting to town.
On a clear day I like to think I can see Nevada and Oregon from my house, but I have to think a sec to remember which way to look.
Asking sticker for an Edge? That dealer won't be in business for long...
"That (MSRP) is outrageous and makes the oil companies look like a charity."
It sounds as though you believe a huge Federal Agency should be created to regulate what car dealers can charge for their products. (Oh, what the heck.. lets throw in the oil companies while were at it.) Where do you think that would get us hardhawk? Economic incentive is destroyed and soon you're dealing with shortages of everything that consumers want. Not me. I prefer capitalism and free markets.. thank you very much.
And despite what you think.. it is absolutely possible to pay MSRP for something and still be very happy with it.
gpclan
Long term relationship? Not nowadays. Most people buy new every 5-10 years. Chances are that the sales rep you deal with now will be long gone by the next time you're ready to buy. Heck, the Ford dealer we bought a car from in '98 changed hands twice, changed locations, and has since gone out of business. Additionally, I've seen that the majority of people really don't have much brand loyalty any longer, so when they are ready to buy again, there's a good chance it will be a different make.
Mark
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
Remember it is asking price. If the dealers asks more than you are willing to pay a simple no thank you will do, or god forbid you get a back bone and make a counter offer.
A dealer is not required to meet your asking price either. IF they say no, deal with it an move on!
Don't know why you say that. There are likely many items in your home that you use and enjoy every day that you paid MSRP for.
Would you walk into a restaurant and try to bargain with the waiter over the menu prices?
How 'bout those of you out there with Apple Computers? It's MSRP only, is it not?
Some things in life are simply worth their listed price. It can apply to a vehicle as much as anything else.
Those who pay MSRP for cars are fools. :P
Those who pay even more are REALLY fools.
Granted, I suppose now there are a FEW exceptions (certain manufacturers, I believe, have a single "no haggle" price that dealers aren't free to discount, as I recall).
Some things in life are simply worth their listed price. It can apply to a vehicle as much as anything else.
Apple (one of your examples) is a case in point. No, to many of us, it is NOT worth the MSRP. So, we don't buy it. Or, in the "old days", we'd find a dealer who would give a discount "under the table" (yes, they did exist).
Your other comparisons are way off: for everyday items, you almost have to go out of your way to pay full MSRP: Wal-Mart and Costco always sells for less, as do many internet retailers. Heck, if you go to a mall every other store always has their merchandise on sale! And you can find Apple coupon codes on the web, or get educational discounts...
Simple question then. You have one car for sale. 3 people show up to buy it. Are you going to sell it to the lowest bidder?
Remember no one has to take the offer the dealer gives. You may never pay MSRP or higher ( I too try to avoid this situation as well) but that is a decision we all make. A bad deal to you may be a great deal to somebody else...
A rule about auctions: The high bidder always pays too much.
You've got it! If someone feels that the car is worth full value, there's nothing wrong with that. It's just that most people typically get some sort of a deal, so at the very least a buyer should try to name his price and if the dealer budges.
As for your comparison: of course I would sell my car at the highest price (or even above asking price) if 3 people are fighting for it--heck, dealerships do the same thing when very desirable cars come out. But let's face it, in real life the car will likely sit for a few days before someone looks at it, and I'd either have to give that person a deal if he asks for it or take the chance that someone else might come along and offer more. If I really want to unload the car, I'll deal with the first person that comes along. I'm sure dealerships think the same way.