"Rendezvous is not a true Buick". This is nonsense. Its as much a Buick as any of them. The GM divisions are only marketing units nowadays. All Buicks are built on GM corporate platforms shared by other divisions. Same with engines and transmissions. The quality coming out of the mexican plant is reported to be among GM's highest. If the sheet metal is thinner in spots its due to design. I had an Acura in which the fender totally buckled from a brick being pulled up into the wheelwell. When the whole front fender was removed it couldn't have weighed more than a couple of pounds. The days of big heavy iron boats are over.
Another reason for thinner sheet metal is so the car will weigh less so it can meet CAFE standards. Ergo aluminum hoods that are becoming more common. There may also be a safety aspect to it as well (crumple zones). Steve Host SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
When I say it is not a traditional Buick, that means several things. My perspective comes from buying, selling and restoring Buicks for over 20 years, as well as being a member of the Buick Club of America for several years.
One, most Buicks until a few years ago were built exclusively in a plant in Flint, Michigan known as Buick City. As we speak, Buick City is getting to know Mr. Wrecking Ball in a very personal way. Now, Buicks are all built in plants that build several lines. The Buick Regal, for example, is built in the same plant as the Chevrolet Impala. Your Rendezvous came off the same assembly line as the Pontiac Aztek.
Two, this is the first foreign-built Buick that I know of, with the possible exception of low-volume right-hand drive units that may have been built in overseas GM plants and badged as a Buick. Once again, this is changing--GM (Buick) has already signed a deal to build and sell the Buick Century in a Chinese plant, exclusively for sale to the Chinease market. When GM gets through negotiating how they will market Daewoo (GM is buying a major interest in Daewoo) they may be sold in other GM dealerships, including Buick dealers. Buying a car built by another GM line isn't new, either. The Cadillac Catera (the Caddy that zigs) was a left-hand drive Opel built in Germany, but with the Cadillac name instead of Opel.
Three, Buicks have for years had their own line of engines that they designed, built and tested. The 3.8L V-6 is a Buick engine that dates back to 1962, but recently has been in multiple GM mid-size and full-size cars. The 3.8 V-6 is the same basic engine used in the very popular late-80s cars know as the Gran National and GNX. These cars were actually faster than Corvettes. They were even purchased by the Drug Enforcement Agency to chase drug runners on I-95 between Miami and New York. While Buick transmissions were often off-the-shelf GM units, each division often designed in unique characteristics such as shift points and gear ratios. Once again, this has all but gone away.
As for the sheet metal, there often has been a different gauge used in both the frame and major body panels of Buick cars when compared to other GM lines.
One note of historical interest--Buick often used the tag line "Premium American Motorcars" in their advertising up until the last few years. Of course, that has now gone to either the trash can or the history books, depending on your outlook.
As for the RDV being made in a plant in Mexico, I have trouble understanding how any vehicle made in a plant with a documented hourly wage of $1.50 to $2.40 per hour can cost over $30K. If Buick wanted to save money by moving production south of the border, that is their business. But it seems to me that they are gouging their customers on price when they are paying about one tenth what other makers are paying for labor here in the U.S. or Canada.
And so, to paraphrase another GM line, "This isn't your father's Buick."
One more thing--what you refer to as "big heavy iron boats" are considered by many collectors to be rolling works of art. A 1958 Buick Limited coupe, which originally sold for about $5K when new, just sold (not asked, but sold) for just over $50K on ebay. Using that ratio, do you think your Rendezvous will EVER sell for $250K-$300K?
PAman. I know people who work at Chevy here in Ohio where they are paid 25.00 (low end of scale ) and are insulted if you expect then to actually do something, so if you try to equate hourly wage to quality then I think you are mistaken. I agree that the quality of the Buick has diminished from Buicks of old, but so has everything else we buy. We come to except that politicians are crooked and nothing is built like in the old day's. That is out fault as a society
You also said that you could buy a 1958 Buick for 5k in 1958. I was drafted in June 0f 1958 and was paid $82.00 a month. I sure couldn't afford one. My brother was working at Chevy and was being paid 2.40 per hour. I don't think he could afford one either. As for a 1958 Buick Limited coupe selling for 50k today - I think that is terrific. However they are only worth what somebody is willing to pay for them.
I feel you had a lot of valid points. However it is very hard if not impossible to try to compare anything of today to that of forty + years ago. Again that is our fault as a society to allow this to hapen.
I'm not sure I see where you're coming from. Are you praising the Rendezvous for it's leading edge styling and International pedigree? If you are, I couldn't agree with you more. Also, you are very knowledgeable about Buick (and GM) history. I knew that Buick had a loyal following and a strong performance reputation in the 50's and 60's, but I didn't know any details.
I don't think you can compare any car maker of the 2000's to the same maker of 40 or 50 years ago. The world economy was completely different and our culture was a foreign country by today's standards. Imagine telling someone in the 50's that someday, Korean's would be selling high quality $30,000 sedans in the US...outrageous!
Today, Buick is simply a name for a variation of the same cars being sold as Pontiacs and Chevrolets. Is there really any difference between a Regal, Lumina, and Grand Prix? Maybe a little trim and suspension tuning, but nothing more. But that's not a bad thing, just the way of the current market. The same is true for Ford/Mazda/Jaguar and Audi/Volkswagon.
GM is perhaps the best example of a manufacturer that uses common platforms to create vehicles among it's various divisions. Nferr is correct when he states that quality out of the Mexican plant is above par.
What difference does it make how much a Mexican worker earns? If cars are cheaper to build in Mexico, then of course companies will build them there. GM, VW, and BMW have all taken advantage of this fact. Of course, if you don't believe that manufacturers should be allowed to pay slave wages to non-union Mexican workers, blame our lawmakers for NAFTA.
BTW, I don't recall ever hearing of a Drug Enforcement Administration I-95 pursuit initiative. As far as I know, the DEA has never performed highway interdiction as a part of it's mission. A special agent lucky enough to be assigned a go-fast car still has the same duties as his peers...he just does them with a bigger smile.
I bought a new vacuum cleaner today...it's all cheap plastic from top to bottom. Based on the two vacuum cleaners I owned before it, I'll be lucky if it lasts a year.
I'm impressed by the maturity of the authors. Obviously, some have different points of view, but no one has gone the name-calling route! Great!
The DEA story about using the Buick GNX was covered in the Washington Post while I was stationed in the Pentagon from '85 until late '88. I don't remember the exact date, but it was probably in mid to late '86 or early '87 since the GNX was dropped for the '88 model year. Wish I had clipped and kept that story. The GNX's top speed was computer-limited due to the speed rating on the original tires. The reporter stated that the DEA was going to order the cars with higher speed-rated tires, and Buick was going to modify or eliminate the speed limiter built into the car's Electronic Control Module. As for the DEA not doing interdiction, I think we can look around and see the agressive role they've adopted in the last few years, and the idea of them running up and down I-95 seems completely believable if not tame by comparison.
As for the comparison between the cost vs. average income of the '58 vs. today's cars, that point is correct. Not everyone can afford any particular car--then or now. My point was that cars then are universally recognized as more unique due to the annual model changes, and their love-it-or-leave-it styling. I think it is easy to see how most car makers--Buick included--make cars that look like every one else's cars. Not too many truely unique designes running around, with cars like the Viper, Prowler and the Beetle being a few of the the exceptions. As for a car's quality and value, those factors have and remain very subjective. The real measuring standard is whether people think a car has the quality and value they need enough to buy it.
However, my strongest objection was to the "big iron boats" comment--that not all big or heavy cars or bad, but more often a victim of perception. Need an example? The upper-end Mercedes are and have been big and heavy for years, yet I don't think anyone refers to them as "big iron boats." But, full-size Buicks from the '50s to the late '80s are often referred to that way, or worse.
Now for the thoughts about UAW workers in Ohio and Buick's choice to build the RDV in Mexico. The Buicks still built in the U.S. by union workers have ranked consistently in the top rankings by J.D. Power and Associates. Seems that those lazy, demanding union workers managed to do something right between naps and strikes. My comment about the wage difference was more along the lines that if Buick wants to pay virtually slave wages, then the RDV should be priced more like the Hyundai Santa Fe. And, yes, I agree that NAFTA probably has put more union workers out of work than Toyota and Nissan combined. As difficult as it is for me to say it, this is one of the FEW topics inwhich I agree with Ross Perot.
Please remember that I started this discussion to explain why the RDV is 'different' from other Buicks, in response to the comments jp614 got from the dentless paint repair technician. It IS different from other Buicks--that was clearly GM's intent and why many of you bought it.
I didn't necessarily mean "big iron boats" in a derogatory sense. I love lots of the old Detroit iron. But its a different market today with many full size cars weighing 3000 - 3500 pounds. Thats a solid 1000 - 1500 pounds less than many of the full size cars of yesterday. A 3.8 liter is a large engine today versus the 6 liter cars of the sixties. And yes Mercedes still makes some full size cars - but they are technological marvels costing $60,000 and up.
I think we are all basically in agreement about the changes in the market over the years, the loss of identity that many marques have suffered, and the trend to build cars with cheap labour.
Yes, the RDV has thinner sheet metal than a 50's Buick. I don't think the RDV sheet metal is appreciably thinner than that found a Regal, LeSabre, etc. The bottom line is that when designing a vehicle, gross weight is a design and engineering consideration.
I think it has already been said that thinner sheet metal results in less gross weight, which results in better fuel economy, higher payload capacity, and quicker acceleration (the RDV needs every pound it can get, ha ha).
The Buick sheetmetal is more substantial than any Honda/Acura vehicle I have looked at recently, including the Accord EX that shares my garage with it. I didn't notice any more substance in the ML320 or the Ford Explorer either. The RDV sheetmetal is likely no thicker or thinner than any other car in it's price/weight category.
PAman, you're right. I see where you're coming from now and agree that the RDV is different than any other Buick. It was a bold step for Buick to leave their traditional demographic to attract the younger, upwardly mobile, nuclear family. It took nerve (and the potential for big earnings) to enter a segment dominated by luxury import marques. It was a smart and successful strategy that has brought a new customer into Buick showrooms and stolen thousands of sales away from Acura, Lexus, and Daimler Chrysler.
BTW, speaking of the DEA, did you read the story about black FBI helicopters flying over peoples homes at night in 'whisper mode'? Seems they use IR cameras to look through walls and watch people undress.
I would argue products get better with time. It is a good thing they do not have to build cars like they use to. Cars today can go 100,000 between tune-ups, 150,000 on coolant, and are just breaking in at 100,000 miles. That is because of technology that allows cars to be lighter, stronger, more efficient, less polluting, and cheaper at the same time.
That is what people want, and if the Car companies do not produce products people want, they go out of business....That is what the Japanese taught Detroit and they are finally coming around.
Anyhow, back to the RDV. I have just signed into this discussion based on the fact I am looking to buy one for my wife. We have two little kids and are very impressed with it. I also am impressed with the people in this chat room who all seem to be interested in sharing information, facts, and opinions and respecting everyone at the same time.
Had to add my comments re:RDV's sheet metal. Finally got around this past Saturday to polishing the RDV. First time(3500mi):-)Keep in mind I did not read about the "Thin Sheet Metal"until after I polished it. As I was polishing it I was saying to myself how firm the body was. Some cars I have polished over the years you could feel the sheet metal give as you were pressing on it. Not so with the RDV. The only flexing was on the cladding. I did not have a micrometer to check the thickness of the sheet metal;-) , but I was impressed by the solidness of the body, especially the roof. OMO :-)~~
While I agree that keeping good jobs here in the US/Canada is important, Rendezvous is a very well built rig. Quality is as good as any other Buick I've seen in the last 5 years.
On the other side of the coin, I am thankful that Rendezvous is different that other Buicks because the other ones are dated and out of step with today's car market. RDV is a breath of fresh air and I want to see more of it. At 33, I would never consider a Buick of any kind until Rendezvous came along. Hopefully Mr Lutz can save Buick because the General loosing Oldsmobile was extremely sad to say the least!
PAman I apologize for implying that all union workers are lazy and yes they did do a lot of things right to help make this a better country. My brother has worked for GM since the late 50's and still refuses to retire. He had a great carrier there and earned an above average living. However these jobs no longer exist. A very sad sign of the times are the closing of the steel mill's and massive lay offs of the auto workers in our area.
I enjoyed your comments and insight to Buick. Thanks it was a great discussion and I look forward to your comments in the Town Hall. Ken
kenym: No apology necessary, but since it was sincerely offered, I accept. The discussion has been spirited, but not disrespectful.
fedlawman: I hope you are having some fun at the expense of another urban myth when talking about the black helicopters. The longer that story sticks around, the better it gets due to exaggeration. Thanks. As for the helicopters, like most urban myths, it does have a degree of truth. Here in San Antonio, like several other cities, the FBI and other law enforcement agencies have conducted night training operations on deserted or isolated areas. However, when they did it here, it got so much media attention, the FBI actually had to send a spokesman from their Public Affairs office to explain what was happening. The backlash was so severe from the public, as well as the conspiracy types, that they haven't done it again in this area.
islandpete: The substantial 'feel' you may or may not get from the sheet metal on a car is probably due to how well the exterior of the car is supported by the frame or subframe assemblies. Like you, I haven't put a micrometer to the RDV or any other late-model car, but its quality feel, or lack thereof, is probably due to a good or bad design as much as it is the gauge of metal used. Sounds like the RDV does have a well-designed body and frame assembly. I think it is a unibody design, which is usually designed to reduce what the engineers call noise, vibration and harshness.
Great comments from all; I look forward to reading what others in here have to say.
I stopped by this board and had to read the new 30 posts, very interesting. What first attracted me to the RDV was:
1) the great "Buick" ride when I test drove it, 2) the "Buick" reputation for quality/longivity/ reasonably priced parts for repairs 6-9 years down the road. 3) pricing substantially below sticker, plus $ 2002 off that.
........... and then my bubble popped when I found out they were made in Mexico.
Regarding the thin sheet metal, I can accept that for all the advantages you get with it, as long as the frame is still strong and well built.
But whether it's right/true or not, I just couldn't get over the Mexico thing ! Maybe in a few years I'll look back and say, why was I hung up on the quality of a Plant in Mexico ? But for me, who had a very difficult time buying Japanese for the first time, somehow Buick - Mexico threw me off.
I do agree with the poster that stated that the bottom line for quality will be found in the resale value of the vehicle. And I believe Buick to date, is fairly high up there in it's price class.
Hello, all. I would like to know what to expect for a "best price" (before rebate)on a new RDV CXL w/ SD pkg, and sunroof (MSRP - $32,877). Most of the dealers around here (Pittsburgh) seem to have a pretty good selection (6-8 on the lot).
Also, any educated guesses regarding any additional sale/lease incentives after Feb. 1?
I don't know why people are hung up on Mexican auto factories (as opposed to those in Japan, Canada, Korea, etc.). You may have problems about the wage structure in those countries, but anyone who thinks Mexico (and Mexican workers) can't produce a great car is living in some other universe than mine (think VW New Beetle as the perhaps most visible example).
Here's one link that touches on the quality of Mexican auto factories.
And I bet the Mexican Rendezvous doesn't suffer rotted out floorboards in ~5 years like my family's 1953 Buick did. Steve Host SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
I'm getting a lot of noise from my RDV when I go on the highway. Some of the noise is from the big side mirrors, which I understand is normal. What I am concerned about is a whistling sound that seems to come from the back of the vehicle. Could it be that the seals on the bad hatch are not tight? Could it be the wind going past the roof rack? Does anyone else have this problem? If it's customary, I could live with it, though it's not too great.
I heard a rumor today that GM is going to extend the $2002 cashback until Sept. However, they probably wont keep the 5.9% financing. Has anyone else heard anything or can confirm? The current incentive still says it will run out at the end of Feb.
You have a good memory regarding the MDX. Long story on MDX, the dust still hasn't settled yet.
One more thing about RDX, in my opinion, the interior was very well designed ! Deep console, great cup holders, storage under console, nice look, good space for cell phone with DC charger - all right in front area to reach easy.
Question - Did I read somewhere that the interior was designed by a woman ? Just curious ; )
The design team was headed by a woman. I think most of the design team, whether male or female, had young families. (As a side note, anyone else notice how handy the removable cup holder liners in the front are? They're great for doling out snacks :-))
The interior design was a huge factor in my final decision to go with the RDV instead of the Mountaineer. After looking at the RDV, I saw nothing but wasted space in the Mountaineer every time I looked at it.
Great! I can't believe they picked Camry as car of the year though. New Camry has a kind of ugly rear end and is nothing special. Detroit News certainly picked different from any other organizations and publications.
Well, I have read each and every one of the posts having to do with the RDV and was able to walk into the dealership today a very well informed buyer. Walk may be too gentle as my hubby has been on my case since November to get a new vehicle. I have wanted the RDV since it first came out but was determined to do all the necessary research so as not to be taken advantage of (as women and young military usually are). Well after a bit of wheeling and dealing I will hopefully be the new owner of a Pewter CX/Luxury Pck/sunroof/etc. by next week. The dealer was a new owner dealer and wanted to try to clear off his inventory but both CXL's on his lot were too high and with less options than what I wanted (and I knew where the vehicle was thanks to GMBuyPower). Alas I will have to wait for them to go get it. But I have really enjoyed reading all the posts and it has helped alot. Thanks to all! Want to say I am also one of the grey clan! Will let you know how it all works out. I have already posted to the owners board too. Oh by the way...thanks boondocks...I clicked on the link and called in the hubby to rub it in (Chevy/GMC truck man)...he was shocked. Alright, score one for the RDV!!!
DebbieB (da saints fan-hanging head and active fantasy football member)
Living in a northern climate with lots of winter snow and salt (most years), is undercoating recomended? Will pick up my RDV soon and want to know if that is unecessary duplication given that they build vehicles much better out of the factory these days to withstand the rigors of winter. All opinions welcome.
I have narrowed down my search to the RDV and a Dodge Durango. The major concern I have is with the performnace of the engine. I have heard from a couple of people that the engine is a dog. they say it seems good for city driving but not good on the hoghway. Could someone tell me their experiences with merging onto a freeway or trying to pass a vehicle when you are going over 60mph. Maybe it's me or some insecurity but it seems the RDV is more appropriate for a lady than a man. Are there many male drivers of this out there? If I am going to lease for 3yrs I want to make sure I will be happy for 3yrs. Also should I get AWD or just FWD. I live in Mich where I would use the AWD perhaps 4 to 5 x a year.
I'm male and I have the Aztek, I think it provides plenty of power. Only thing is, mine is a Front wheel drive only. I have no idea about the AWD version, I will tell you this though I have traction control and it works very well in bad weather.
geckojb. It boils down to what you want to do with the vehicle. If you are planning a lot of serious off road trips the Durango is probably the one. However remember the Durango will get into your pocket a lot more often then the RDV will.
Four wheel drive vehicles are more expensive to repair and insure, more expensive to operate and have a much stiffer ride. I feel and I don't think I am alone that the RDV has plenty of power ( for conventional roads ).
I think what it should come down to is how much off road driving you plan to do . I feel both vehicles are great looking. However they are entirely different vehicles and very hard to compare
My RDV CX AWD 1SB is now 400 miles old. If you recall, I just sold my 1996 Chevy 4x4 P/U with short bed and 200 hp V-6.
I was part of an amateur radio VHF rover team two weeks ago and we used my friend's Durango 4x4 Sport with the V-8. That Durango has much more power, felt fast and had an OK ride. But for comfort and ergonomics, storage space and overall usefulness, it is not close to the RDV. The RDV and my Chevy are about equal in the HP/lb category and both about as fast on the street. The Dodge is much peppier than both. BUT, THE RDV IS COMPLETELY ADEQUATE. If we were having this conversation 5 years ago, we'd be praising the pep of the RDV. Unless you are towing, why not get the more useful vehicle?
Gas mileage? That Dodge gets about 13 mpg, my old 4x4 got 15.5 and my new RDV is getting 17.5 mpg on the first two fillups and that includes some cold weather and snow. No contest on fuel economy. Unless you are towing, why not get the more efficient vehicle?
Again, the Durango is really nice. But, is a bit more power going to offset the higher fuel bills, higher maint costs, loss of ride comfort and loss of utility and interior room? Well, not for me it doesn't, and I cross-shopped the Trailblazer.
Rust: my dealer specifically said that if I rustproof the truck, the 6/60 rust warranty is null and void.
Lastly, Western NY got hit with an ice storm today. I now know that the RDV handles 5" of snow covered in 1/2" of ice MUCH BETTER than my old truck. That AWD system really is GREAT!
Power - I have never driven a Durango, so I don't know about the power it has - seems like it should have power for the amount of gas it uses. But your specific question was passing and merging. I have found it to work great in both situations. It is geared to really get down and punch it when you ask it to. I have felt no lack of power. One thing that was brought up a long time ago here was the hp as related to torque - my understanding was basically it boiled down to how much "overhead" power you had. The RDV feels like it is operating towards the top of it's power in most gears. It gets boost when it needs it by downshifting. That contrasts with how my old '80 Malibu with the souped up 350 behaved. It always had power to spare. Of course, that was because it was pumping more gas in at any given moment, even when it was not needed (the other 95% of the time you're not passing a car).
Man car vs woman car - there's no doubt it's a family car. As a woman I enjoy the layout, cargo room, and the "practicality" of the vehicle. My husband loves the ride.
Michigan - how could you possibly ask about whether or not you need AWD after the last couple of days?? I don't know where exactly you live, but here in the Lansing area, we've had tons of snow and ice the last couple of days. AWD is a dream. I'll never go back to 2WD in Michigan. What I like best about AWD over 4WD is black ice. We have it much more than 4-5 times a year around here. It kicks in before you even know you have to have it.
P.S. - for the others - you should have seen the snow I plowed effortlessly through on my uncleared back roads yesterday morning! The snow was scraping the front bumper and underside, but the RDV never stopped. 'Course my average gas milage is down to 18.4 now. :-) Msadams, sounds like you had similar weather. We didn't get the ice until this morning, though.
Boondocks has it exactly right. I often drive Gamera on two lane US routes that attrack a lot of trucks, and have no trouble passing. The transmission and the engine seem to be very well mated to get the most out of this admittedly heavy vehicle in situations where it counts. Nonetheless, the vehicle is clearly no powerhouse, but that's not important to me.
Fedlawman also has it right. Stay away from the undercoating. My experience it that it's far more likely to hurt than help.
msadams and others: Re my post 2090, has anyone put Thule or Yakima roof racks on the CX? Or the CXL minus the factory rack? I need to know before buying. Thanks.
Thanks to all for helping me out. The last decision I have to make is which model FWD or AWD. Boondocks I do live about an hour awayf rom you in the metro area. A dealer suggested to me that the FWD will probably suffice since it is FWD and will do well in the snow. My question is this. Shoud I spend the extra money to do the AWD or is it not that big of a difference considering the FWD has the traction control? Also since the AWD is 250lbs heavier will this have an effect on performance i.e. acceleration. The AWD does have some better color combos too. Thanks to all for your help.
Only you can decide if you need FWD w/traction control or AWD. Several of us that responded to your power question own AWD models, and we find the power adequate. You simply need to test drive the RDV to see if it's sufficient for you.
The AWD system is very effective and, now that I have driven in rain and ice with it, I will NEVER own another 2-wheel drive car again.
Also, I have spent more than a little time behind the wheel of a Durango (my co-worker drives an SLT w/4.7). It is fast and rides pretty well considering it's truck underpinnings. Like the RDV, it is not a real off-roader, although it's tires and suspension make it seem less fragile.
Overall, the Durango doesn't have the build quality, reliability, safety, versatility, luxury, or comfort of the RDV. Then again, only a couple of SUV's do, and they cost about $40,000.
I have not yet purchased a roof rack for my CX. I expect that I will get the Yakima. No rush here as it is 20F and we've had no power now for 24hrs. (Except that I use a laptop computer with a deep cycle battery and inverter from the ham shack.) It is hard to imagine that bicycling season will ever come around again :-)
BTW, the Yakima Railrider with the round load bars is a perfect fit per the Yakima web site. The Buick bars are OK but the Yakima are much more heavy duty.
Well we picked it up today and it looks and rides great-MSRP was 31,235 and I got it for 26,882 with rebate. TMV invoice says 30,102 so I guess I did pretty well. I could really care less right now all I know is I like this vehicle and you all helped me (pat yourself on the back) Dealer was put in his place by a woman that had all her ducks in a row and told them exactly what and how I wanted things done. Was going to trade the old GMC Safari van for a loss just to get it off my hands but had a little luck today and was able to sell it for alot more than the dealer was willing to give (hee hee -they a had to redo the papers when I got there)so was able to put down a larger down payment to lower my notes (two car note family-UGH). Went to a Mardi Gras parade then drove halfway home with hubby following. Then stopped to eat and he drove it home (he was impressed with the ride). Daughter who is 14 thinks it is cool and does not make all the old misc. noises that the van was making-which is embarrassing for a teenager). We are now dealing with the manual and hope to be able to set everything up tomorrow. Will let you know how it goes.
Hi! I saw a Rendezvous yesterday and thought something was odd about it until I realized that the roof rack wasn't stock. We were both driving so there was no chance for me to tell which brand it was. On the other hand, it was attached to the stock roof rails so there are alternate products out there which will do the job for you without modification.
Good luck on finding mudflaps. I searched for over a month and finally found two pairs of a discontinued brand that looked like they would fit. The main problem is finding the correct width to cover the tire area.
I installed both sets. The rear set required drilling one hole on the bottom of the wheel well cladding. I used the existing screw on the upper part of the cladding for the top.
I drilled two holes for each front. There is one spot midway down the cladding where you can drill and not hit sheet metal. I used the square flap on the lower inside of the wheel well housing for the other mounting area. You will know it when you see it.
Remember that you will have to remove the wheels to do this.
After spending about two hours, I finally had the sets on. They look good. On the first weekend I noticed a rubbing sound when turning the wheels when going downhill. The front tires rub the mudflaps when at the end of the turning radius! This may be why Buick does not recommend tire chains!!!!! There is almost no room to spare in the housings.
In the spring, when the weather warms up, I am going to try and mount the fronts again not using the square flaps on the housing. I figure that maybe that extra 1/8 of an inch may solve my problem.
Hopefully Buick will come out with a better solution in aftermarket parts.
I have been following this forum for a few months now and finally took the plunge and bought a CXL w/ the luxury package. I think I got a decent deal but the combination of options I wanted wasn't available on any car in dealer stock within 750 miles of where I live (Seattle). I had to take delivery from dealer stock to get the rebate (no time to order and take delivery by 2/28) so the dealer charged me $600 to trailer the car from a distant dealer. I checked GM Buy Power and it did not find any Rendezvous closer than 750 miles either. I also independently priced the shipping cost from where the Rendezvous was located and came up with $525. So I don't think $600 was out of line but is it typical for the customer to pay to bring the vehicle they want into stock?
I'm from the Seattle area as well. I just purchased a new RDV. The dealer wanted to charge me several hundred dollars in delivery charges. The one with the options I wanted wasn't available within 750 miles of Seattle. I just told the dealer that I does not want to pay for delivery, and if they want to sell me the car, they find a way to get the car here without charging me extra for it. I ended up paying nothing extra.
Certainly everything is negotiable...I don't think it is necessarily wrong to pay for shipping the car 750 miles.
If the dealer had to pay to trailer your RDV to Seattle, it would cost them something to do it, and I'm sure your deal refelcted this cost. One way or another, the dealer is going to make money on the deal, and he'll get his profit from either the front or the back door.
BTW, it's great to finally have some fellow Seattle RDV owners! I've been looking for RDV's up here ever since I bought mine last summer and have only seen two on the road in 9 months. I think one was a rental because I work in and around the airport and saw it on Pac Hwy in SeaTac. I saw the other one (a red CX) on Ft. Lewis last week.
What color/models do you have and where do you drive?
You might see my rather conventionally colored pewter and dark gray mist RDV making the run between Capitol Hill and Boeing Field where I currently do software consulting.
I think when the economy climbs back on track and prospective buyers get over their freshman jitters the RDV will have a breakout sophomore sales year and we should see many more everywhere.
Me, I am more than satisfied I got the best all-around SUV offered.
Hi all, Glad to see all the new owners. As one of the first San Francisco Bay Area owners, I am glad to be seeing more RDV's on the roads of the Bay area. I have driven 14,000 miles with my Sandstone and Bronzemist CXL AWD since July 31st and am still averaging 20.7 mpg. I have not reset my average mile reading since the initial breakin period of 500 miles, so my expected 20+ mpg has come true. I do a lot of highway and freeway driving, but that does include a lot of commute traffic as you cannot avoid stop and go driving in this area. We are taking another long distance trip this weekend and expect to put another 500 miles on the vehicle. I followed another contributers suggestion and removed the luggage rack rails about a week ago, I will let you know if I see any improvement on my mileage for this trip. Keep up all the positive info and happy driving. Thank you Patriots for a great game and best of all beating the Rams.
Comments
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
One, most Buicks until a few years ago were built exclusively in a plant in Flint, Michigan known as Buick City. As we speak, Buick City is getting to know Mr. Wrecking Ball in a very personal way. Now, Buicks are all built in plants that build several lines. The Buick Regal, for example, is built in the same plant as the Chevrolet Impala. Your Rendezvous came off the same assembly line as the Pontiac Aztek.
Two, this is the first foreign-built Buick that I know of, with the possible exception of low-volume right-hand drive units that may have been built in overseas GM plants and badged as a Buick. Once again, this is changing--GM (Buick) has already signed a deal to build and sell the Buick Century in a Chinese plant, exclusively for sale to the Chinease market. When GM gets through negotiating how they will market Daewoo (GM is buying a major interest in Daewoo) they may be sold in other GM dealerships, including Buick dealers. Buying a car built by another GM line isn't new, either. The Cadillac Catera (the Caddy that zigs) was a left-hand drive Opel built in Germany, but with the Cadillac name instead of Opel.
Three, Buicks have for years had their own line of engines that they designed, built and tested. The 3.8L V-6 is a Buick engine that dates back to 1962, but recently has been in multiple GM mid-size and full-size cars. The 3.8 V-6 is the same basic engine used in the very popular late-80s cars know as the Gran National and GNX. These cars were actually faster than Corvettes. They were even purchased by the Drug Enforcement Agency to chase drug runners on I-95 between Miami and New York. While Buick transmissions were often off-the-shelf GM units, each division often designed in unique characteristics such as shift points and gear ratios. Once again, this has all but gone away.
As for the sheet metal, there often has been a different gauge used in both the frame and major body panels of Buick cars when compared to other GM lines.
One note of historical interest--Buick often used the tag line "Premium American Motorcars" in their advertising up until the last few years. Of course, that has now gone to either the trash can or the history books, depending on your outlook.
As for the RDV being made in a plant in Mexico, I have trouble understanding how any vehicle made in a plant with a documented hourly wage of $1.50 to $2.40 per hour can cost over $30K. If Buick wanted to save money by moving production south of the border, that is their business. But it seems to me that they are gouging their customers on price when they are paying about one tenth what other makers are paying for labor here in the U.S. or Canada.
And so, to paraphrase another GM line, "This isn't your father's Buick."
One more thing--what you refer to as "big heavy iron boats" are considered by many collectors to be rolling works of art. A 1958 Buick Limited coupe, which originally sold for about $5K when new, just sold (not asked, but sold) for just over $50K on ebay. Using that ratio, do you think your Rendezvous will EVER sell for $250K-$300K?
Ohio where they are paid 25.00 (low end of scale ) and are insulted if you expect then to actually do something, so if you try to equate hourly wage to quality then I think you are mistaken. I agree that the quality of the Buick has diminished from Buicks of old, but so has everything else we buy. We come to except that politicians are crooked and nothing is built like in the old day's. That is out fault as a society
You also said that you could buy a 1958 Buick for 5k in 1958. I was drafted in June 0f 1958 and was paid $82.00 a month. I sure couldn't afford one. My brother was working at Chevy and was being paid 2.40 per hour. I don't think he could afford one either. As for a 1958 Buick Limited coupe selling for 50k today - I think that is terrific. However they are only worth what somebody is willing to pay for them.
I feel you had a lot of valid points. However it is very hard if not impossible to try to compare anything of today to that of forty + years ago. Again that is our fault as a society to allow this to hapen.
Ken
I don't think you can compare any car maker of the 2000's to the same maker of 40 or 50 years ago. The world economy was completely different and our culture was a foreign country by today's standards. Imagine telling someone in the 50's that someday, Korean's would be selling high quality $30,000 sedans in the US...outrageous!
Today, Buick is simply a name for a variation of the same cars being sold as Pontiacs and Chevrolets. Is there really any difference between a Regal, Lumina, and Grand Prix? Maybe a little trim and suspension tuning, but nothing more. But that's not a bad thing, just the way of the current market. The same is true for Ford/Mazda/Jaguar and Audi/Volkswagon.
GM is perhaps the best example of a manufacturer that uses common platforms to create vehicles among it's various divisions. Nferr is correct when he states that quality out of the Mexican plant is above par.
What difference does it make how much a Mexican worker earns? If cars are cheaper to build in Mexico, then of course companies will build them there. GM, VW, and BMW have all taken advantage of this fact. Of course, if you don't believe that manufacturers should be allowed to pay slave wages to non-union Mexican workers, blame our lawmakers for NAFTA.
BTW, I don't recall ever hearing of a Drug Enforcement Administration I-95 pursuit initiative. As far as I know, the DEA has never performed highway interdiction as a part of it's mission. A special agent lucky enough to be assigned a go-fast car still has the same duties as his peers...he just does them with a bigger smile.
I bought a new vacuum cleaner today...it's all cheap plastic from top to bottom. Based on the two vacuum cleaners I owned before it, I'll be lucky if it lasts a year.
They don't make anything like they used to.
I'm impressed by the maturity of the authors. Obviously, some have different points of view, but no one has gone the name-calling route! Great!
The DEA story about using the Buick GNX was covered in the Washington Post while I was stationed in the Pentagon from '85 until late '88. I don't remember the exact date, but it was probably in mid to late '86 or early '87 since the GNX was dropped for the '88 model year. Wish I had clipped and kept that story. The GNX's top speed was computer-limited due to the speed rating on the original tires. The reporter stated that the DEA was going to order the cars with higher speed-rated tires, and Buick was going to modify or eliminate the speed limiter built into the car's Electronic Control Module. As for the DEA not doing interdiction, I think we can look around and see the agressive role they've adopted in the last few years, and the idea of them running up and down I-95 seems completely believable if not tame by comparison.
As for the comparison between the cost vs. average income of the '58 vs. today's cars, that point is correct. Not everyone can afford any particular car--then or now. My point was that cars then are universally recognized as more unique due to the annual model changes, and their love-it-or-leave-it styling. I think it is easy to see how most car makers--Buick included--make cars that look like every one else's cars. Not too many truely unique designes running around, with cars like the Viper, Prowler and the Beetle being a few of the the exceptions. As for a car's quality and value, those factors have and remain very subjective. The real measuring standard is whether people think a car has the quality and value they need enough to buy it.
However, my strongest objection was to the "big iron boats" comment--that not all big or heavy cars or bad, but more often a victim of perception. Need an example? The upper-end Mercedes are and have been big and heavy for years, yet I don't think anyone refers to them as "big iron boats." But, full-size Buicks from the '50s to the late '80s are often referred to that way, or worse.
Now for the thoughts about UAW workers in Ohio and Buick's choice to build the RDV in Mexico. The Buicks still built in the U.S. by union workers have ranked consistently in the top rankings by J.D. Power and Associates. Seems that those lazy, demanding union workers managed to do something right between naps and strikes. My comment about the wage difference was more along the lines that if Buick wants to pay virtually slave wages, then the RDV should be priced more like the Hyundai Santa Fe. And, yes, I agree that NAFTA probably has put more union workers out of work than Toyota and Nissan combined. As difficult as it is for me to say it, this is one of the FEW topics inwhich I agree with Ross Perot.
Please remember that I started this discussion to explain why the RDV is 'different' from other Buicks, in response to the comments jp614 got from the dentless paint repair technician. It IS different from other Buicks--that was clearly GM's intent and why many of you bought it.
Joe
I think we are all basically in agreement about the changes in the market over the years, the loss of identity that many marques have suffered, and the trend to build cars with cheap labour.
Yes, the RDV has thinner sheet metal than a 50's Buick. I don't think the RDV sheet metal is appreciably thinner than that found a Regal, LeSabre, etc. The bottom line is that when designing a vehicle, gross weight is a design and engineering consideration.
I think it has already been said that thinner sheet metal results in less gross weight, which results in better fuel economy, higher payload capacity, and quicker acceleration (the RDV needs every pound it can get, ha ha).
The Buick sheetmetal is more substantial than any Honda/Acura vehicle I have looked at recently, including the Accord EX that shares my garage with it. I didn't notice any more substance in the ML320 or the Ford Explorer either. The RDV sheetmetal is likely no thicker or thinner than any other car in it's price/weight category.
PAman, you're right. I see where you're coming from now and agree that the RDV is different than any other Buick. It was a bold step for Buick to leave their traditional demographic to attract the younger, upwardly mobile, nuclear family. It took nerve (and the potential for big earnings) to enter a segment dominated by luxury import marques. It was a smart and successful strategy that has brought a new customer into Buick showrooms and stolen thousands of sales away from Acura, Lexus, and Daimler Chrysler.
BTW, speaking of the DEA, did you read the story about black FBI helicopters flying over peoples homes at night in 'whisper mode'? Seems they use IR cameras to look through walls and watch people undress.
That is what people want, and if the Car companies do not produce products people want, they go out of business....That is what the Japanese taught Detroit and they are finally coming around.
Anyhow, back to the RDV. I have just signed into this discussion based on the fact I am looking to buy one for my wife. We have two little kids and are very impressed with it. I also am impressed with the people in this chat room who all seem to be interested in sharing information, facts, and opinions and respecting everyone at the same time.
On the other side of the coin, I am thankful that Rendezvous is different that other Buicks because the other ones are dated and out of step with today's car market. RDV is a breath of fresh air and I want to see more of it. At 33, I would never consider a Buick of any kind until Rendezvous came along. Hopefully Mr Lutz can save Buick because the General loosing Oldsmobile was extremely sad to say the least!
I enjoyed your comments and insight to Buick. Thanks it was a great discussion and I look forward to your comments in the Town Hall.
Ken
fedlawman: I hope you are having some fun at the expense of another urban myth when talking about the black helicopters. The longer that story sticks around, the better it gets due to exaggeration. Thanks. As for the helicopters, like most urban myths, it does have a degree of truth. Here in San Antonio, like several other cities, the FBI and other law enforcement agencies have conducted night training operations on deserted or isolated areas. However, when they did it here, it got so much media attention, the FBI actually had to send a spokesman from their Public Affairs office to explain what was happening. The backlash was so severe from the public, as well as the conspiracy types, that they haven't done it again in this area.
islandpete: The substantial 'feel' you may or may not get from the sheet metal on a car is probably due to how well the exterior of the car is supported by the frame or subframe assemblies. Like you, I haven't put a micrometer to the RDV or any other late-model car, but its quality feel, or lack thereof, is probably due to a good or bad design as much as it is the gauge of metal used. Sounds like the RDV does have a well-designed body and frame assembly. I think it is a unibody design, which is usually designed to reduce what the engineers call noise, vibration and harshness.
Great comments from all; I look forward to reading what others in here have to say.
Joe
1) the great "Buick" ride when I test drove it,
2) the "Buick" reputation for quality/longivity/ reasonably priced parts for repairs 6-9 years down the road.
3) pricing substantially below sticker, plus $ 2002 off that.
........... and then my bubble popped when I found out they were made in Mexico.
Regarding the thin sheet metal, I can accept that for all the advantages you get with it, as long as the frame is still strong and well built.
But whether it's right/true or not, I just couldn't get over the Mexico thing ! Maybe in a few years I'll look back and say, why was I hung up on the quality of a Plant in Mexico ? But for me, who had a very difficult time buying Japanese for the first time, somehow Buick - Mexico threw me off.
I do agree with the poster that stated that the bottom line for quality will be found in the resale value of the vehicle. And I believe Buick to date, is fairly high up there in it's price class.
Great message board !
Also, any educated guesses regarding any additional sale/lease incentives after Feb. 1?
Thanks.
Here's one link that touches on the quality of Mexican auto factories.
And I bet the Mexican Rendezvous doesn't suffer rotted out floorboards in ~5 years like my family's 1953 Buick did.
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Ken
Ken
One more thing about RDX, in my opinion, the interior was very well designed ! Deep console, great cup holders, storage under console, nice look, good space for cell phone with DC charger - all right in front area to reach easy.
Question - Did I read somewhere that the interior was designed by a woman ? Just curious ; )
The interior design was a huge factor in my final decision to go with the RDV instead of the Mountaineer. After looking at the RDV, I saw nothing but wasted space in the Mountaineer every time I looked at it.
Oh by the way...thanks boondocks...I clicked on the link and called in the hubby to rub it in (Chevy/GMC truck man)...he was shocked. Alright, score one for the RDV!!!
DebbieB
(da saints fan-hanging head and active fantasy football member)
tidester
Host
SUVs
Here's my question to you: have you finalized the paperwork on your RDV yet? If not, let me know; I might be able to save you some money....
Joe
Four wheel drive vehicles are more expensive to repair and insure, more expensive to operate and have a much stiffer ride. I feel and I don't think I am alone that the RDV has plenty of power ( for conventional roads ).
I think what it should come down to is how much off road driving you plan to do . I feel both vehicles are great looking. However they are entirely different vehicles and very hard to compare
Ken
My RDV CX AWD 1SB is now 400 miles old. If you recall, I just sold my 1996 Chevy 4x4 P/U with short bed and 200 hp V-6.
I was part of an amateur radio VHF rover team two weeks ago and we used my friend's Durango 4x4 Sport with the V-8. That Durango has much more power, felt fast and had an OK ride. But for comfort and ergonomics, storage space and overall usefulness, it is not close to the RDV. The RDV and my Chevy are about equal in the HP/lb category and both about as fast on the street. The Dodge is much peppier than both. BUT, THE RDV IS COMPLETELY ADEQUATE. If we were having this conversation 5 years ago, we'd be praising the pep of the RDV. Unless you are towing, why not get the more useful vehicle?
Gas mileage? That Dodge gets about 13 mpg, my old 4x4 got 15.5 and my new RDV is getting 17.5 mpg on the first two fillups and that includes some cold weather and snow. No contest on fuel economy. Unless you are towing, why not get the more efficient vehicle?
Again, the Durango is really nice. But, is a bit more power going to offset the higher fuel bills, higher maint costs, loss of ride comfort and loss of utility and interior room? Well, not for me it doesn't, and I cross-shopped the Trailblazer.
Rust: my dealer specifically said that if I rustproof the truck, the 6/60 rust warranty is null and void.
Lastly, Western NY got hit with an ice storm today. I now know that the RDV handles 5" of snow covered in 1/2" of ice MUCH BETTER than my old truck. That AWD system really is GREAT!
Good luck to all,
Mark K2QO
Man car vs woman car - there's no doubt it's a family car. As a woman I enjoy the layout, cargo room, and the "practicality" of the vehicle. My husband loves the ride.
Michigan - how could you possibly ask about whether or not you need AWD after the last couple of days?? I don't know where exactly you live, but here in the Lansing area, we've had tons of snow and ice the last couple of days. AWD is a dream. I'll never go back to 2WD in Michigan. What I like best about AWD over 4WD is black ice. We have it much more than 4-5 times a year around here. It kicks in before you even know you have to have it.
P.S. - for the others - you should have seen the snow I plowed effortlessly through on my uncleared back roads yesterday morning! The snow was scraping the front bumper and underside, but the RDV never stopped. 'Course my average gas milage is down to 18.4 now. :-) Msadams, sounds like you had similar weather. We didn't get the ice until this morning, though.
Fedlawman also has it right. Stay away from the undercoating. My experience it that it's far more likely to hurt than help.
CWJ
Re my post 2090, has anyone put Thule or Yakima roof racks on the CX? Or the CXL minus the factory rack?
I need to know before buying.
Thanks.
The AWD system is very effective and, now that I have driven in rain and ice with it, I will NEVER own another 2-wheel drive car again.
Also, I have spent more than a little time behind the wheel of a Durango (my co-worker drives an SLT w/4.7). It is fast and rides pretty well considering it's truck underpinnings. Like the RDV, it is not a real off-roader, although it's tires and suspension make it seem less fragile.
Overall, the Durango doesn't have the build quality, reliability, safety, versatility, luxury, or comfort of the RDV. Then again, only a couple of SUV's do, and they cost about $40,000.
BTW, the Yakima Railrider with the round load bars is a perfect fit per the Yakima web site. The Buick bars are OK but the Yakima are much more heavy duty.
Hope everyone in the snowy north is staying warm!
Mark K2QO
CWJ
I installed both sets. The rear set required drilling one hole on the bottom of the wheel well cladding. I used the existing screw on the upper part of the cladding for the top.
I drilled two holes for each front. There is one spot midway down the cladding where you can drill and not hit sheet metal. I used the square flap on the lower inside of the wheel well housing for the other mounting area. You will know it when you see it.
Remember that you will have to remove the wheels to do this.
After spending about two hours, I finally had the sets on. They look good. On the first weekend I noticed a rubbing sound when turning the wheels when going downhill. The front tires rub the mudflaps when at the end of the turning radius! This may be why Buick does not recommend tire chains!!!!! There is almost no room to spare in the housings.
In the spring, when the weather warms up, I am going to try and mount the fronts again not using the square flaps on the housing. I figure that maybe that extra 1/8 of an inch may solve my problem.
Hopefully Buick will come out with a better solution in aftermarket parts.
Good Luck in your hunt.
If the dealer had to pay to trailer your RDV to Seattle, it would cost them something to do it, and I'm sure your deal refelcted this cost. One way or another, the dealer is going to make money on the deal, and he'll get his profit from either the front or the back door.
BTW, it's great to finally have some fellow Seattle RDV owners! I've been looking for RDV's up here ever since I bought mine last summer and have only seen two on the road in 9 months. I think one was a rental because I work in and around the airport and saw it on Pac Hwy in SeaTac. I saw the other one (a red CX) on Ft. Lewis last week.
What color/models do you have and where do you drive?
I think when the economy climbs back on track and prospective buyers get over their freshman jitters the RDV will have a breakout sophomore sales year and we should see many more everywhere.
Me, I am more than satisfied I got the best all-around SUV offered.
Glad to see all the new owners. As one of the first San Francisco Bay Area owners, I am glad to be seeing more RDV's on the roads of the Bay area. I have driven 14,000 miles with my Sandstone and Bronzemist CXL AWD since July 31st and am still averaging 20.7 mpg. I have not reset my average mile reading since the initial breakin period of 500 miles, so my expected 20+ mpg has come true. I do a lot of highway and freeway driving, but that does include a lot of commute traffic as you cannot avoid stop and go driving in this area. We are taking another long distance trip this weekend and expect to put another 500 miles on the vehicle. I followed another contributers suggestion and removed the luggage rack rails about a week ago, I will let you know if I see any improvement on my mileage for this trip. Keep up all the positive info and happy driving. Thank you Patriots for a great game and best of all beating the Rams.