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Midsize Sedans 2.0



  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,910
    Why base your opinion of Mazda on a five-year-old design when the all-new 2014 Mazda6 has been out for awhile? It would be like comparing the 2008 Accord to the latest designs. It would not fare well in that comparison.

    I can't think of a single mid-sized family sedan that had alloys standard in its base trim in 2009. It's like you are blaming Mazda for your BIL's decision to buy a base Mazda6.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,681
    I drove the 2009 Mazda 6 when they first came out. I loved their manual; best I've ever driven. The 6cyl/auto had a huge amount of power.

    But I agree, when I drove a subsequent car, the VW CC (4cyl), it totally outclassed the 6. The VW was more expensive, comparatively, and at that point only had an auto...but I really liked it (Didn't buy either)

    I haven't seen or driven a new 6 (not in the market); they do look very impressive.
  • gee22gee22 Posts: 82
    Actually, you didn't go far enough in your compariosn. It's more than comparing a 2008 Accord to a 2013 Accord since that is all Honda engineering. It's comparing an old Ford design to a completely new philosophy.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,175
    Well, you have to admit when you stated that Hyundai sells more cars in Japan than Honda you sort of lost credibility.
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 258
    edited August 2013
    I don't fault him. I believe that less than half of what is written in these blogs is true. IDK why, but people just seem to not be able to tell the truth. It's not like we know one another or live nearby. The idea is to help people, but some people just can't break their habit of stretching the truth or just out and out lying. You just have to filter it out.
  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    edited August 2013
    and I did not notice that before I posted it.

    link title

    And I provide as many links as anyone to support my positions, like the reviewers' comments on the buzzy and quirky nature of CVTs.

    Others, most notably the graduate, just post subjective opinions with no backup. He's also thrown down some misinformation about a recent podcast which I proved he fabricated.
    He, no doubt, has never even driven a Sonata hybrid.

    Now where's that passport . . . . .
  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaPosts: 399
    Old info and the only place it was reported at that, there was something mentioned in other articles about Hyundai having greater sales worldwide than all but Toyota but no one else reported that they outsold Honda and Nissan in Japan itself, it seems to be something that may have been lost in translation by the people in your link. It would be very strange for Hyundai to be second in sales in Japan and then pull out of e market. I believe some posted the sales numbers for about a decade for Hyundai in Japan above and it didn't amount to much ( no foreign automakers sell too many units compared the the Japanese automakers anyway, not just a problem for Hyundai) so I am sorry but your source appears to be incorrect.
  • gee22gee22 Posts: 82
    c'mon, even if it had been true, that article was from 2009. You implying you didn't notice that?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,910
    Read my post again. I didn't compare the 2008 Accord to the 2013 Accord.

    In this case, the OP was comparing a five-year-old Mazda design to other, unspecified, cars. The 2009 Mazda6 was the first year of the previous-generation Mazda6. The 2008 Accord was the first year of the previous-generation Accord.
  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    I saw the ‘09/‘10 date but in my zeal to defend this car - I’m on my second one - posted it anyway because I was getting tired of seeing the graduate inaccurately dissing on a car he really doesn’t know squat about.
    Heh, I fessed up on this source but the majority of the links I’ve referenced are recent.

    The 2013 Sonata hybrids are a screaming deal and from personal experience I know the drive train issues are solved.
    They continue to sell well - with the Kia version included, the Koreans sold over 3,400 in the US July.
  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    edited August 2013
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,175
    but in my zeal to defend this car

    It's not like somebody is beating up your kid or insulting your's just a car. Jeeesh.
  • gee22gee22 Posts: 82
    backy, what's your problem? You had a good post, my point was you could take it even further. You said "It would be like comparing the 2008 Accord to the latest designs" and I take "latest designs" to mean the 2013 model.
    My point was though you had a good analogy, I could make an even stronger one to explorerx4.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,910
    You can make whatever point you want to explorerx4. I was replying to a post from someone else.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 2,933
    1. Accord
    2. Fusion
    3. Optima
    4. Camry
    5. Sonata

    "Our reviewers see the Sonata as missing out on key touches. "Hyundai's not there yet on crisp, balanced handling," Healey said. "The Sonata still rides on the busy side," Mays noted, "picking up highway ruts that others filter out." "While the engine is peppy, powertrain refinement is not on par with the rest of these cars," Robinson said. "This one feels tight to me because of the seat bolsters," Raquel Girvin said. "No backup camera in the Sonata," Varela asked. "Huh. I would have expected more from Hyundai."

    The verdict: "The Sonata won our last Family Sedan Shootout, but that was mostly due to the dynamic styling and the fact that it had a lot more features than most for the money," Robinson said. "Well, the styling is no longer that dramatic and most of these cars are very well-equipped, so it's firmly mid-pack in this comparison." n&story=26k_sedanResult&subject=stories
  • gee22gee22 Posts: 82
    I stand corrected, it was andres3 where you made your 2008 to "latest design" Accord comparison that I was commenting on.
    Considering I was supporting you, I'm curious how you will handle a response that is contrary to your opinion.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 2,933
    edited August 2013 - - - ab=video&c=y

    "Worsening car blind spots

    If you're having a hard time seeing out of your car, you're not alone. Cars designed with high trunks and hoods and low, sloping rooflines give a sleek appearance on the outside but can cause visibility problems from the inside.

    Consumer Reports tests cars for blind spots and says the new designs are making things much worse. It's a problem not only in traffic but also in driveways and parking lots.

    Wide rear pillars and smaller back windows make it especially hard to see out the back, even when you turn your head around. More than 200 people die every year in accidents by drivers who did not see them, and many of those are children.

    Consumer Reports tests rear visibility and finds that some cars are seriously lacking it, especially for drivers who are short.

    The Hyundai Sonata sedan has a blind zone of 21 feet....
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 2,933
    edited August 2013
    Many have said that the new Accord's styling is conservative if not boring. Perhaps true. But it's also true that it's a "form follows function" design. Other things being equal, it is good to have good visibility. Many would say yes. Others would go for more expressive styling. Everyone gets to make their own choices. But there is a logic behind the way the Accord is styled, and a reason it's similar to a BMW in terms of having thin roof pillars made of high grade steel. This review from the business magazine Forbes emphasizes that point. - rd-really-satisfies/

    "Matthew de Paula, Contributor

    Test Drive: 2013 Honda Accord Really Satisfies

    ....a four-cylinder Honda Accord leaving a sports car in the dust does say something: Despite being grossly out of its element on a racetrack—as shown by how much the car leaned when changing directions—this midsize sedan is so well engineered that it maintains poise even when being flung about.

    More importantly to car buyers, all of the engineering upgrades that make the new Accord perform better than expected on a racetrack also give it a quieter, smoother and more responsive ride in everyday driving.....

    The 2013 model is so much improved that it’s in another league entirely. “For the new Accord, we went back to zero and started from the beginning with everything,” says Shoji Matsui, chief engineer for the Accord

    A little over half of the steel used in the new Accord’s underlying body is high tensile, which makes the car markedly more rigid while cutting 57 pounds. The difference can be felt in the car’s agility....

    Excellent outward visibility only enhances the sense of safety. Many car manufacturers continue to favor style over practicality by designing flashy cars with small windows, higher belt lines and thicker roof pillars (read more about such design disasters here). Kudos to Honda engineers for keeping the windows tall, belt line relatively low and front roof pillars as thin as possible. Every new Honda Accord also gets larger side mirrors and a rearview camera to further aid visibility....

    The styling of the new Accord has grown on me. It definitely looks better than the previous model, thanks largely to the redesigned front end that has been trimmed down to achieve a more athletic look and to give the driver a better view of the road ahead.

    The clean, simple styling and slim headlights—which use LEDs on the top Touring model, a feature typically found only on luxury cars—recall Accords from the 1980s and ‘90s. Compared to more extroverted designs like those of the Hyundai Sonata and Kia Optima, the new Accord might seem bland. But this is a family sedan, not a sports car, and its handsome, restrained appearance will continue to look good long after other designs become outdated...."
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,910
    "Go ahead... make my day." :)

    Don't get all bent out of shape just because I wondered what in heck you were talking about in your posts.
  • mtnman1mtnman1 Central OhioPosts: 431
    "The styling of the new Accord has grown on me. It definitely looks better than the previous model, thanks largely to the redesigned front end that has been trimmed down to achieve a more athletic look and to give the driver a better view of the road ahead."

    For the first time ever I will make a blasphemous statement and agree that I actually like the appearance of the new Accord. I've always loathed Honda (mainly because the vehicles are so boring), but when it comes time to replace my 2009 Fusion the Accord may be on my short list. I read that Car and Driver rated the new Malibu as the best riding as far as interior quietness and a comfortable ride. Slowest off the line though and Fuel efficiency lacks. That's what impressed me about the Honda was the MPG rating and the quickness of the 4 cylinder. Plus for the first time the Accord looks pretty good.
    2012 Highlander Limited AWD V6 and 2015 Ford Fusion Hybrid SE
  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 6,842
    It's no secret that I'm a GM fan and I really liked the 2008-2012 Malibu. Almost bought one in 2009, probably should have in retrospect.

    I had high hopes for the 2013 model but when I saw the long-lead photos I was shocked at how discordant the exterior and interior design was. Nothing seemed right. The front end looked high and blocky, the greenhouse seemed too small, and the bangle butt and Camaro taillights looked totally wrong. Inside, the tombstone-shaped center stack was just ugly, the ribbed dash applique reminded me of a 1990 Beretta, the over-use of fake woodgrain reminded me of the late 1970s, and the misshapen little hat over the Camaro-style cluster just looked ridiculous. Then came word of the overly tight rear compartment and it was game over.

    That raised in my mind the question of what I would buy if I was in the market right now. Sonata is not open for consideration. Optima might get a look just for the design, but I am wary. Saw the new Mazda 6 and was unimpressed, especially with the interior. Altima may be a decent car but I am not a fan of anything made by Nissan. Fusion may be OK but it reminds me of the Sonata from 3 years ago in terms of the excess hype by the automotive press. Camry would need to be considered just due to sheer popularity. And then there's Honda.

    I don't dislike Hondas, but I never particularly liked the Accord. Recently a co-worker bought a 2013 and I went with her on a long road trip. This is one nice car! Lots of room inside, great visibility, nicely designed inside and out, and the powertrain seemed more than capable. As a passenger I never noticed the CVT which is saying something. It pains me to say this, but if I was buying in this segment today, I would buy an Accord without a second thought.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,534
    Go to, and post your question in the general forum or on the appearance forum. Guaranteed to get help there.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 12,028
    Honda uses active noise cancellation. The driver's side is is made to feel quiet, but the passenger side sends subliminal messages 'Buy and Accord, Buy an Accord, Buy an Accord over and over again'. ;)
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2014 Ford F-150 FX4
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,534
    edited August 2013
    Thanks man. It's always fun to see a review of your own car. It is actually the EXACT same car as mine, except for the color. I am noticing a trend though. The Optima always finishes mid pack. It's never #1. That's what Kia is striving for , and I hope they continue to improve handling as well. A platform that looks so good (inside and out) in either version shouldn't be hobbled by poor steering calibrations and the lack of a few welds for added platform rigidity.

    I found it interesting that the Fusion 1.6 EcoBoost averages 28. 49 MPG during the test (must have been done on an airport runway, or in Nebraska :D ) and the Optima 2.4 non-turbo(with 22 more HP) got 29.69, over 1 mpg better FE.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,534
    'Honda uses active noise cancellation. The driver's side is is made to feel quiet, but the passenger side sends subliminal messages 'Buy and Accord, Buy an Accord, Buy an Accord over and over again'.


    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 2,933
    It's interesting to me that every test I've seen that compares the two rates the Optima significantly higher than the Sonata.

    As you know, the Optima also out-scored the Sonata on the IIHS small offset test.

    KIA, I think, is trying to differentiate itself from Hyundai, and seems to be succeeding.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,534
    edited August 2013
    The Sonata interior is more style biased while the Optima is more form-follows-function.

    It's funny how that actually ties into the dreaded C-pillar blind spot, which is similarly bad in the Optima. I don't have to spend any time looking for buttons or knobs or sorting through menus, which means I spend more time looking at the road. The radio looks like a radio, the HVAC is below that, (as it should be), and both have real knobs with races that would be at home in an Audi. It is no accident, as Peter Schreyer, a former chief designer for Audi and Volkswagen, has led the transformation of Kia with such products as the Optima, 2014 Forte, and Cadenza.

    I honestly didn't have to look at the manual at all to set the whole car up the way I liked it, including pairing my Galaxy phone, adding my flash drive, using the dual-zone A/C and setting the clock.

    I aspire to own a nice new Audi one day, but for a father of three with a mortgage, the Optima is an attractive stand in for big stacks of cash less.

    If anyone would like to see my actual car, you can do so here:

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 2,933
    Nice looking car!+++ Good color.
  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    edited August 2013
    The Hyundai and Kia power trains are basically identical, much like Ford and Lincoln.

    This article took 17 reviews and built their ratings from them, much like Rotten Tomatoes does for films.
    In it the Hyundais scored better than the Kia and Honda:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    The Sonata Hybrid has a conventional six-speed automatic in lieu of the CVT-type arrangement used by most other hybrids.

    There's a reason "most other hybrids" use these. :shades:

    It doesn't buzz or drone, but it thunks and lurches as power-supplies (electric or electric + gas) turn on and off. A terribly unrefined solution that is a let-down on such a technology-laden car.
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