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we can all point to 20 years or so of history versus a whole 2
That assumes nothing has materially changed in recent years. Based on history you wouldn't have predicted Toyota's engine sludge or transmission problems or Honda's transmission problems. You wouldn't have predicted the new Toyota Tundra 5.7L truck engine would have 20 confirmed camshaft failures within the first 6 months.
At some point you have to stop relying solely on past performance and take current performance into account. Things change.
I usually rent thru Hertz or Budget, would invariably end up with a 'Vulcan' Taurus/Milan, or a G6 pushrod - talk about irritating! Then it seemed that Sonatas were taking over, most were the V6s and not nearly so bad. Hyundai apparently has also seen the light (as declining 'sales nos. would indicate) and now seems to understand that 'loss leaders' are exactly that and 'sales' for the sake of 'sales' is a losing proposition especially as they seek to recover from their own checkered past as well.
you have to stop relying solely on past performance and take current performance into account. Things change. and you really really think that the car buyer is going to magically flock into Ford dealerships just because the Ford Fusion has shown to have some decent reliability stats for a whole 2 years? Things do change - but it is also almost universally true that real change takes time. Has Ford all of a sudden changed its spots? Perhaps.
Don't assume the general buying public shares your disgust for Ford and all Ford products. They don't. And the ones that do are changing their minds based on the latest quality and safety awards.
Yes, it will take time but it's happening much more quickly than some folks want to admit.
and you really really think that the car buyer is going to magically flock into Ford dealerships just because the Ford Fusion has shown to have some decent reliability stats for a whole 2 years?
Yes. That plus the recent quality and safety awards. I read an interview with someone who bought an Escape. She said she only visited the Ford showroom after seeing Ford's great performance in the latest JD Power IQS ratings. Before she saw that she simply would not have considered a Ford product.
I've also read about buyers who won't consider a Camry due to the engine sludge and transmission problems. I'd say the shoe is now firmly on the other foot. Diehard Toyota and Honda fans won't be swayed but the average buyer will be.
Accord/Camry having stability control standard has no merit?? actually if you understand what stability control does and how it works, the fact that the Fusion doesn't even offer it is a big advantage -to the Fusion, under those controlled and specific conditions that Ford dictated the tests be conducted. Remember that we are talking about how much 'fun' it is to fling a few sedans around a test track here - not how ultimately safe they are. We've been thru this before, but your 'Challenge' remains about the biggest sham ever foisted on the car buying public. Ford should be ashamed to think that it has to resort to such things.
"Sounds like GM's version of the Ford Challenge. Good for them."
No way, Ford challenge was a paid advertisment from Ford, while this is a gutsy move aimed at buyers in dealerships, not passersby.
GM is definitely on move, the product they have launched in the past year of so has been far, far improved from the past (GMT900s, Saturns Aura-Vue-Sky, upcoming Malibu, CTS, Acadia, upcoming G8) and I don't see why it won't be successful.
Ford on the other hand, well apart from the Fusion, there really is not much to talk about, I would have preferred if they had got some of the Euro fords here, which are excellent vehicles, including the small/micro cars, which would have been a great move, seeing how gas prices are skyrocketing here.
Example - you are going out to buy your kid his/her first car, and you tell your neighbor that you bought an 6 year old Camcord with 100k on it. He nods because he understands. Tell him the same thing about a Contour in the same condition and he wonders if you are crazy.
Except you leave out that for the same money the camcord costs you can get two Contours. And why do I care what someone else thinks, anyway.
I actually did buy two used contours that became teenager cars after I had used them myself for a while. Each had about 75K miles one was 5 years old the other 6. One cost $3800 the other $3100.
I have no 'disgust' for Ford products and have said several times that I thought that both the Fusion and 500 were well designed vehicles - disgust? - that probably happens when I evaluate what's under the hoods and drive them and is only a personal importance that I assign to drivetrain sophistication How much do you think Ford (or anybody else) PAYS the JD Powers' of the world to use their name for promotional purposes, BTW? Or for that matter, how much R&T or C&D were PAID for their 'participation' and name use in your ballyhooed Challenge? Those quality and safety awards you point to need to be earned and not necessarily bought. Trust somebody like CR to come out with something that tells me that the Fusion has been the least troublesome car in its class for at least the last 5 years or so - then, I become a 'believer'.
grad - I think you find that the bigger price disparities are found comparing V6 to V6, not the 4 cylinder models. The Accord V6 premium being higher than the Fords.
Toyota and Honda are not loaning the Accords and Camrys to Saturn, they are not giving the cars to Saturn, they are not trading the cars for Saturns. The Accords and Camrys are being sold. Sold = Sale
and how exactly do you suppose that JD Powers pays its bills? They don't exactly have the same sort of donation/consumer support base that CR does, for example.
I think there is a strong possibility, the cynic that I am, that somebody over at JD (and I really don't mean to pick on them specifically) gets together with his staff and decides which company needs and more importantly would use their name most often for some favorable publicity. Effectively predetermined results - just like the Challenge. All about dollars, sure, as many things are. If you don't think that things like this happen, I feel sorry for you!
JD Powers sells its research to the auto industry. The quality reports are only the tip of the iceberg. 99.99% of their data is never released to the public. It's used by the automakers (all of them) to track progress and identify areas for improvement. That's how they fund their research, not by selling results to the highest bidder. They get the same price for their work regardless of the results.
You don't ever hear any of the automakers at the bottom of their results questioning either the results or the process. That should be enough proof by itself.
Oh my... when you look at the specification details on these comparison pages, Toyota and Honda fans will have a field day. For example, the V6 is standard for the Aura but "Not Available" for the Camry and Accord. I guess that is true.... the V6 isn't available in the I4 models.
Thanks for the post, TallMan. Very informative. Just as I suspected, the Aura is a V6 (do they even offer a 4?) versus the I4 in both the Camry and Accord. The comparison is definitely a gutsy move by GM. Comparison doesn't indicate if all three of them have standard or automatic transmissions.
They would all have to be automatics because as far as I can tell, the XE model in the comparison doesn't come with a manual.
I was playing around on the Saturn website and it appears that the base model XE is what is used in the comparison (based on price). However, when I went to the "build your own" section, several option packages were pre-selected and I couldn't remove them. This added $2,725 to the MSRP. Anyone know anything about this?... it certainly can't be right.
Saturn doesn't offer a 4-cyl for the XE or XR, only for the Green line. I'm sure that automatics will be used for the comparison as well, considering that the Aura isn't available with a manual.
As far as the website goes, I was able to build a bare-bones XE with no options, for the price of $20,995.
As far as the website goes, I was able to build a bare-bones XE with no options, for the price of $20,995.
Maybe it's my Safari browser then... I couldn't get those check marks on the packages that were pre-selected turned off. I feel better knowing that you were able to do it. :shades:
You miss the point...a 4 cylinder IS the standard engine in both the Accord and the Camry. While a V-6 is available it is an option. On the Saturn it is standard and for the price a "plus" for many people and for the sake of this comparison I guess. I won't lie, I have found the 4 cylinder engines on both the Camry (rented) and the Sonata (also rented) to be perfectly adequate...in a rented vehicle but when I am shelling out my own $$$ I want a V-6. This may be a vestige of my automotive formative years (the 60's and 70's) when BIGGER/MORE HP was better in all circumstances.
living in a closet? you really think that 99.99% of their income comes from these industry studies or that the cost of showing that picture of a trophy in an ad comes cheap? CR publishes exactly where their money comes from and how they use it and is non-profit, so how do you know anything is 99.99% of anything at JDP! A link would be appreciated. Objectivity is not something I question with something like CR although I don't agree with their priorities a lot of times, simply for the fact that no money changes hands. Anybody that is in it for that money - that would be a different story, don't you think? Last year's favorite over there at JDP was Hyundai if I remember correctly (another mfgr. in need of an image remake), and Honda/Toyota would not likely find any real benefit to advertising something that most folks already know and expect. CR currently rates the Accord and the Altima tops in this category overall with the Fulans in the middle of the pack - and does not allow either Honda or Nissan to advertise that fact - amazing how that works is it?
Cost to run a brand new domestic vehicle 65K miles = almost 5,000 dollars in repairs (not maintenance) and tow trucks (4 of them) outside of warranty.
Cost to run a new Honda 65K miles = $0.00 outside of maintenance and gas. Zero tow trucks.
Cost to run a new Audi to 19K miles = $0.00 outside of gas. (Granted, its still under warranty and maintenance is covered to 50K or 4 years).
Cost to run 1992 Honda purchased in 2002, kept for a bit over two years, bought at 166K miles; taken to 200K miles, bought for 3,500 + tax, sold for $2,700, Repairs = $1,000 which included new brakes, rotars, ect.
So before I turn 30, I have about 115K miles of personal experience (including my wife's with the 92 Honda Civic) with foreign cars... total repair cost 1K.
I have 65K with a domestic... total repair cost $5K.
Throw in the wife's 25K on a 2005 Civic, and 4K on a 2007 Civic, and now you have 29K more miles at $0.00 repair cost. ('05 got totalled by some idiot).
YOU DO the MATH!
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
That the '05 Civic recovered about 94% of its value in the not at fault accident that got it totalled. Insurance paid handsomely.
If it was an '05 domestic... would of been lucky to get 50%?
The old domestic got peanuts on trade-in at 65K miles... thereby adding insult to injury to the 5,000 dollars in repair costs; might as well have bought a RR with repair bills like that!
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
You miss the point...a 4 cylinder IS the standard engine in both the Accord and the Camry. While a V-6 is available it is an option.
I didn't miss the point. I just got a chuckle out of Saturn saying the V6 is "not available" in the Camry and Accord but, as you stated, it is indeed an option... or available in another trimline. Interestingly enough, Aura's only available 4 cyl. Greenline is more expensive than their V6 XE base model.
Saturn chose to compare their XE model, which is their cheapest, to a mid-range trimline in the Camry and Accord. To be honest, I'm not sure what models they are comparing to because they list two different prices on the Saturn pages.
My best guess is that the Accord is the SE and the Camry is the LE with some options.
yeah it is rather amusing - how about the relative FE ratings, if you are going to trumpet the extra HP of that V6 and then conveniently 'forget' to mention the several mpgs it's costing in these days of $3/gallon gas. IMO though, a helluva car with the 3.6, the XR probably more directly competitive to the V6 versions of the Camcord. But, then again, maybe that 'Saturn advantage' might just disappear. As you say, that's advertising!
There is absolutely no evidence from anyone anywhere to suggest that JD Power's quality ratings are up for sale or that they're influenced by the mfrs in any way. Why would the auto mfrs buy their research data if it's not accurate?
Why would the auto mfrs buy their research data if it's not accurate?
So they can put JD survey in their ads, and impress people who are swayed by that type of thing. Just about any car has won an award of some type. Some car companies will give themselves an award. Seems kind of interesting to me that most of the cars who proudly display JD power results in their ads are cars that don't do well in other tests and comparisons (desperate types).
I buy the car I want. Not the car some magazine, survey, or media says is the right car. The media doesn't know what I like.
I have already shown who paid $5K more for a Camry.. go to the Milan vs Camry room and scroll back. In this room you will find a person paid $5K more for a like optioned Camry vs a Milan Premier V6.. I have told you this time after time..
some also don't understand financing. Never has Honda or Toyota offer 0%, and very rarely 2.9%.. Financing costs also must be included in the price of the vehicle. :surprise:
Kind of funny, resale value has only true meaning when you can actually find someone to buy the car for the higher price. I have first hand experience with this with my wifes 2000 Accord LX 4cyl automatic.. Resale.. :P right..
I don't know about your previous discussion but thegrad's post you are replying to talks about $5K more for an Accord, not a Camry.
I'm sure with at least one savvy shopper and one oblivious shopper, you could find someone, somewhere who paid $5K more for a Fusion than an Accord or Camry.
"It is perhaps unfair, but for the last 10 or 15 years at least - Toyotas and Hondas are assummed reliable and valuable while the 'Detroit' products are assummed 'suspect'. Ford (and Ford buyers) will have a long time to wait before this changes - even if the Fusion proves to be the most reliable and best car ever built. "
Once again, this may hold true for those who don't do thier homework.. As I have said.. Go to MSN reliability data and compare an 03 Focus to an 03 Civic.. Surprise! :surprise: Although you'll get those who swear up and down Focus are unreliable and Civics are completly reliable. For my daughters first car it will be a Focus.. I'm not spending the extra $$ for perception and buying a Civic..I'll be saving thousands over a Civic.
"but your 'Challenge' remains about the biggest sham ever foisted on the car buying public. Ford should be ashamed to think that it has to resort to such things."
Sham, in your anti-Ford mind. These were comparable vehicles. These people were in no way paid by Ford, nor were they Ford employees. This is what makes the test so interesting.
I have already shown who paid $5K more for a Camry.. go to the Milan vs Camry room and scroll back. In this room you will find a person paid $5K more for a like optioned Camry vs a Milan Premier V6.. I have told you this time after time
This is silly. There's a sucker born every minute bro.
I'm sure grad can find you an anecdote about someone paying MSRP for their Milan.
Not sure why you feel compelled to foist this $5000 price difference on us.
The $2000 extra you pay for an Accord is recovered when you sell it also. We have no idea what a Fusion's percentage of its purchase price can be expected back at resale. A total unknown. Accord buyers known about the car's resale history.
"No way, Ford challenge was a paid advertisment from Ford, while this is a gutsy move aimed at buyers in dealerships, not passersby. "
Wrong again.. It was sponsered by Ford. These people were not Ford employees, nor were they paid by Ford. Please, read the whole challenge before spreading misinformation.
So, now JD Powers is being bought by Ford?? :sick: I would be willing to be if it were Toyota or Honda in the spotlight at JD Powers it would be completly believable right? Bias runs rampant in this room
"Oh my... when you look at the specification details on these comparison pages, Toyota and Honda fans will have a field day. For example, the V6 is standard for the Aura but "Not Available" for the Camry and Accord. I guess that is true.... the V6 isn't available in the I4 models. "
Ever thought an I4 Camry/Accord like optioned costs as much as a v6 Aura like optioned? Then it would be a fair comparison. Showing the consumer that the Camry/Accord are just plain over priced..
"I'm sure with at least one savvy shopper and one oblivious shopper, you could find someone, somewhere who paid $5K more for a Fusion than an Accord or Camry."
Actually.. a guy at work just bought an 07 Camry SE I4 automatic.. Price - $25,500!! He thought this was a great price at that!. I'll wait a few days to pop his bubble..
Comments
That assumes nothing has materially changed in recent years. Based on history you wouldn't have predicted Toyota's engine sludge or transmission problems or Honda's transmission problems. You wouldn't have predicted the new Toyota Tundra 5.7L truck engine would have 20 confirmed camshaft failures within the first 6 months.
At some point you have to stop relying solely on past performance and take current performance into account. Things change.
nos. would indicate) and now seems to understand that 'loss leaders' are exactly that and 'sales' for the sake of 'sales' is a losing proposition especially as they seek to recover from their own checkered past as well.
and you really really think that the car buyer is going to magically flock into Ford dealerships just because the Ford Fusion has shown to have some decent reliability stats for a whole 2 years? Things do change - but it is also almost universally true that real change takes time. Has Ford all of a sudden changed its spots? Perhaps.
Yes, it will take time but it's happening much more quickly than some folks want to admit.
Yes. That plus the recent quality and safety awards. I read an interview with someone who bought an Escape. She said she only visited the Ford showroom after seeing Ford's great performance in the latest JD Power IQS ratings. Before she saw that she simply would not have considered a Ford product.
I've also read about buyers who won't consider a Camry due to the engine sludge and transmission problems. I'd say the shoe is now firmly on the other foot. Diehard Toyota and Honda fans won't be swayed but the average buyer will be.
actually if you understand what stability control does and how it works, the fact that the Fusion doesn't even offer it is a big advantage -to the Fusion, under those controlled and specific conditions that Ford dictated the tests be conducted. Remember that we are talking about how much 'fun' it is to fling a few sedans around a test track here - not how ultimately safe they are.
We've been thru this before, but your 'Challenge' remains about the biggest sham ever foisted on the car buying public. Ford should be ashamed to think that it has to resort to such things.
No way, Ford challenge was a paid advertisment from Ford, while this is a gutsy move aimed at buyers in dealerships, not passersby.
GM is definitely on move, the product they have launched in the past year of so has been far, far improved from the past (GMT900s, Saturns Aura-Vue-Sky, upcoming Malibu, CTS, Acadia, upcoming G8) and I don't see why it won't be successful.
Ford on the other hand, well apart from the Fusion, there really is not much to talk about, I would have preferred if they had got some of the Euro fords here, which are excellent vehicles, including the small/micro cars, which would have been a great move, seeing how gas prices are skyrocketing here.
Except you leave out that for the same money the camcord costs you can get two Contours. And why do I care what someone else thinks, anyway.
I actually did buy two used contours that became teenager cars after I had used them myself for a while. Each had about 75K miles one was 5 years old the other 6. One cost $3800 the other $3100.
How much do you think Ford (or anybody else) PAYS the JD Powers' of the world to use their name for promotional purposes, BTW? Or for that matter, how much R&T or C&D were PAID for their 'participation' and name use in your ballyhooed Challenge? Those quality and safety awards you point to need to be earned and not necessarily bought.
Trust somebody like CR to come out with something that tells me that the Fusion has been the least troublesome car in its class for at least the last 5 years or so - then, I become a 'believer'.
I guess it depends on who you are. I found the Altima's seats to be awful. Too hard. too flat, and too low (despite the height adjustablity).
This is now past the point of being ridiculous. Time to move on.
Does Honda/Toyota count those as sales
Toyota and Honda are not loaning the Accords and Camrys to Saturn, they are not giving the cars to Saturn, they are not trading the cars for Saturns. The Accords and Camrys are being sold.
Sold = Sale
I think there is a strong possibility, the cynic that I am, that somebody over at JD (and I really don't mean to pick on them specifically) gets together with his staff and decides which company needs and more importantly would use their name most often for some favorable publicity. Effectively predetermined results - just like the Challenge. All about dollars, sure, as many things are.
If you don't think that things like this happen, I feel sorry for you!
Looks like they used the MSRP as the main focus. That makes it a V6 vs I4 comparison.
You don't ever hear any of the automakers at the bottom of their results questioning either the results or the process. That should be enough proof by itself.
Are they gonna replace the 5 year old designed Accord with a 2008 version when it arrives in 3 months?
In 3 months the advertising campaign will be over. There will be no Accord to replace.
I was playing around on the Saturn website and it appears that the base model XE is what is used in the comparison (based on price). However, when I went to the "build your own" section, several option packages were pre-selected and I couldn't remove them. This added $2,725 to the MSRP. Anyone know anything about this?... it certainly can't be right.
As far as the website goes, I was able to build a bare-bones XE with no options, for the price of $20,995.
Maybe it's my Safari browser then... I couldn't get those check marks on the packages that were pre-selected turned off. I feel better knowing that you were able to do it. :shades:
Objectivity is not something I question with something like CR although I don't agree with their priorities a lot of times, simply for the fact that no money changes hands. Anybody that is in it for that money - that would be a different story, don't you think?
Last year's favorite over there at JDP was Hyundai if I remember correctly (another mfgr. in need of an image remake), and Honda/Toyota would not likely find any real benefit to advertising something that most folks already know and expect.
CR currently rates the Accord and the Altima tops in this category overall with the Fulans in the middle of the pack - and does not allow either Honda or Nissan to advertise that fact - amazing how that works is it?
Cost to run a new Honda 65K miles = $0.00 outside of maintenance and gas. Zero tow trucks.
Cost to run a new Audi to 19K miles = $0.00 outside of gas. (Granted, its still under warranty and maintenance is covered to 50K or 4 years).
Cost to run 1992 Honda purchased in 2002, kept for a bit over two years, bought at 166K miles; taken to 200K miles, bought for 3,500 + tax, sold for $2,700, Repairs = $1,000 which included new brakes, rotars, ect.
So before I turn 30, I have about 115K miles of personal experience (including my wife's with the 92 Honda Civic) with foreign cars... total repair cost 1K.
I have 65K with a domestic... total repair cost $5K.
Throw in the wife's 25K on a 2005 Civic, and 4K on a 2007 Civic, and now you have 29K more miles at $0.00 repair cost. ('05 got totalled by some idiot).
YOU DO the MATH!
If it was an '05 domestic... would of been lucky to get 50%?
The old domestic got peanuts on trade-in at 65K miles... thereby adding insult to injury to the 5,000 dollars in repair costs; might as well have bought a RR with repair bills like that!
I didn't miss the point. I just got a chuckle out of Saturn saying the V6 is "not available" in the Camry and Accord but, as you stated, it is indeed an option... or available in another trimline. Interestingly enough, Aura's only available 4 cyl. Greenline is more expensive than their V6 XE base model.
Saturn chose to compare their XE model, which is their cheapest, to a mid-range trimline in the Camry and Accord. To be honest, I'm not sure what models they are comparing to because they list two different prices on the Saturn pages.
My best guess is that the Accord is the SE and the Camry is the LE with some options.
My favorite part is the Dimensions tab. Saturn uses a red asterisk to denote "Saturn Advantage". Front Head Room, for example, is listed as:
*Aura: 39.4
Camry: 38.8
Accord: 40.4
Saturn Advantage! There are several more just like that on the tab.
IMO though, a helluva car with the 3.6, the XR probably more directly competitive to the V6 versions of the Camcord. But, then again, maybe that 'Saturn advantage' might just disappear. As you say, that's advertising!
So they can put JD survey in their ads, and impress people who are swayed by that type of thing. Just about any car has won an award of some type. Some car companies will give themselves an award. Seems kind of interesting to me that most of the cars who proudly display JD power results in their ads are cars that don't do well in other tests and comparisons (desperate types).
I buy the car I want. Not the car some magazine, survey, or media says is the right car. The media doesn't know what I like.
I'm sure with at least one savvy shopper and one oblivious shopper, you could find someone, somewhere who paid $5K more for a Fusion than an Accord or Camry.
Once again, this may hold true for those who don't do thier homework.. As I have said.. Go to MSN reliability data and compare an 03 Focus to an 03 Civic.. Surprise! :surprise: Although you'll get those who swear up and down Focus are unreliable and Civics are completly reliable. For my daughters first car it will be a Focus.. I'm not spending the extra $$ for perception and buying a Civic..I'll be saving thousands over a Civic.
Sham, in your anti-Ford mind. These were comparable vehicles. These people were in no way paid by Ford, nor were they Ford employees. This is what makes the test so interesting.
This is silly. There's a sucker born every minute bro.
I'm sure grad can find you an anecdote about someone paying MSRP for their Milan.
Not sure why you feel compelled to foist this $5000 price difference on us.
The $2000 extra you pay for an Accord is recovered when you sell it also. We have no idea what a Fusion's percentage of its purchase price can be expected back at resale. A total unknown. Accord buyers known about the car's resale history.
Plus Accordians get a better car in the process.
Wrong again.. It was sponsered by Ford. These people were not Ford employees, nor were they paid by Ford. Please, read the whole challenge before spreading misinformation.
How in the world could you possibly know this? You don't. And we know you don't.
Even if Honda did this kind of 'challenge' I'd take it with a grain of salt. But ....they don't have to resort to this ploy.
Ever thought an I4 Camry/Accord like optioned costs as much as a v6 Aura like optioned? Then it would be a fair comparison. Showing the consumer that the Camry/Accord are just plain over priced..
Actually.. a guy at work just bought an 07 Camry SE I4 automatic.. Price - $25,500!! He thought this was a great price at that!. I'll wait a few days to pop his bubble..