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Man that's a big area. Can't wait for my 6i hatch to be made. Now it turns out build date won't be until July. Not that I'm surprised by delay! Anyway hopefully in August I'll get the car.
Wow - that buyer's remorse from a day ago has disappeared?
Did I really say that we had buyer's remorse? Actually, in a way, I do wish we had bought an I4 Fusion instead of the V6 with AWD, since we don't "need" either but the car is indeed very satisfying. Our only "complaint" has been the in-city mileage, but that is gradually improving and we only have 3,400 miles on the car.
Financing only matters in the price of the vehicle if you are financing it.
If it is discounted a lot, it can still matter to the (would be) cash buyer (such as myself). When I compared prices, if there was 0% financing that had a value equal to what I would earn in a tax exempt money market fund by taking the loan, rather than paying cash.
Currently if I were buying a $20,000 car, 0% for 36 months would be worth maybe around $1200.
and in my case (don't know if it's still the case now), Mazda gave me an extra $1000 rebate to finance through them. I did not get a great rate (7+%) but I paid off my car in a few months w/ other lower interest loans. So sometimes financing makes more financial sense than not.
Furthermore, in about 5 more months the 2008 Accord will blow by all of its competitors Just like somebody else might make a statement like the 08 Fusion that is presumed to have the new DT 3.5 will blow off all its competitors - how do you KNOW what Honda is going to do? I have yet to see anything but some car show pictures and nothing in terms of engine specs, FE ratings etc.. A logical assumption, I think, that the new Accord will at least have to get up into the 270hp territory to match the Camry and Altima, anything much more than that may create a little torque steer overkill much like the TL-S. How could the new Accord 'blow away' the competition? How about a 170hp+, 350 lb. ft. high tech clean diesel that gets 30+ mpg EPA combined? They would have an instant 6 month waiting list and probably be able to price it accord-ingly (pun intended)!
Just like somebody else might make a statement like the 08 Fusion that is presumed to have the new DT 3.5 will blow off all its competitors -
Captain2, According to what I have read, the 2008 Fusion will not have the new 3.5-liter V6. FoMoCo is sticking with the tried and true 3.0 liter V6 in the 2008 Fusion.
I know that Honda will blow the doors off of the competition because that is exactly what they did in the fall/winter of 2002 when they introduced the 2003 model Accord. Lightyears ahead of the competition at the time.
I chose the LX V6 because you get all the goodies except leather and a sunroof.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Yes, I'd have paid cash but took Mazda's $1000 for getting a loan I did not need. I paid mine off after three weeks. I paid about $60 in interest and a $4 lien filing fee...so it was actually a $936 rebate for me .
I do wish we had bought an I4 Fusion instead of the V6 with AWD
I'd rather have the V6 in the Fusion vs. the 4. I know the gas mileage isn't the best but I'm sure you'll get more quality miles on the V6, in better comfort, road security, comfort, on demand power, and resale.
here's a few reasons to choose a Fusion over the Accord... the steering on the fusion is quicker and has more feel in comparison to the heavy feeling steering of the accord. the suspension and chassis on the fusion makes the car feel lighter and a bit more tossable, although the accord does have a good feeling chassis...it just feels heavier and less direct.
and of course the brakes on the accord have been tested to be pretty lackluster and in some cases worst in class. personally, I'd rather have an engine that was a few tenths slower to 60 than 15 feet shorter to get back to 0 mph; at least in an emergency stop, the fusion would be more likely to avoid an accident.
then of course, we could talk about the looks... personally I think the Fusion is pretty striking, and not too far out there like the Altima (at least the taillights) whereas the Accord is not offensive or anything, but isn't a standout either.
AWD is another reason to like some versions of the Fusion... although I don't have AWD on my mazda6, I did have it on my Legacy and it was valuable in more than just bad weather. when driving at anything more than 20mph, grip and traction is always a good thing and anything that helps improve this can either be safer or more fun.
And of course the recent reliability reports in consumer reports and jd powers seem to confirm that the Fusion is holding up amongst the best of all automobiles.
These are all good reasons to consider the Fusion over any car. Would I buy one though? Nope, I'm quite happy with my Mazda6.
Yes, I'd have paid cash but took Mazda's $1000 for getting a loan I did not need. I paid mine off after three weeks. I paid about $60 in interest and a $4 lien filing fee...so it was actually a $936 rebate for me .
AAAARGH...my dealer told me that I had to hold on to the loan for at least 3 months or else the rebate would be taken back! Oh well, my net was around $740 which still isn't so bad. I hate slimy dealers!
And of course the recent reliability reports in consumer reports and jd powers seem to confirm that the Fusion is holding up amongst the best of all automobiles.
Get back to us in ten years and let us know how the Fusion did. In the meantime, we know how an Accord will do.
No, you think and hope you know how well an Accord will hold up. Just like stocks and mutual funds...past performance does not guarantee anything. I like Honda engineers also...but look at their formula 1 cars; they are in last place right now despite spending 500 million a year. Honda engineers are great, but they are not infallible.
And we've all been talking about JD powers and consumer report's long term reliability studies... they both are confirming studies that show that the difference between one brand and another usually does not exceed 1 extra problem over a five year history. I understand you want to make a mountain out of a mole-hill to justify the extra expense, but really, the differences are not huge. Most of the cars that are in this category are very well made.
Why should we assume that the passersby in the advertisment are unbiased folks? You want to talk about hundreds of drivers, well just look at the real byuers - more than 800k per year vote with their wallet for the Camcords, isn't that saying something?
sales numbers are meaningless. Ford sells 5x as many F-seris trucks as honda sells accords. does that mean trucks are better than cars?
Personaly, I consider reliability rating fairly worthless. I guess they may be a good guide, but they don't, and can't factor in how well somebody takes care of their car. You could even go as far as to say that part of the reliability problem for lower priced cars is that many of the people who buy them are less well off, and it's the most they can afford for a car. Lower income car buyers with less disposable income are far less likely to get all the proper maintanece performed on their car. Its akin to why vehicles that are "dumped" into fleet sales get lower reliability rating. the drivers dog the hell out of 'em. Its not that the car is inferior, It's that the drivers abuse them.
To all those who ask, how will that fusion be in 10yrs, I know how my accord will be, I'd say
1. I'd be willing to bet you an accord that a fusion (properly maintained) will have about the same amount of problems as any accord, camry, altima ect
2. Honda is every bit as capable of screwing up as anyone else. Nissan (nor its customers) foresaw an engine problem in the fist month of 2006 production that would destroy sales of the sentra and altima for the entire year. (the sentra still hasn't recovered) It was that unexpected, (and uncommon with nissan) mistake that contributed the most to honda passing nissan in sales last year.
I know that Honda will blow the doors off of the competition because that is exactly what they did in the fall/winter of 2002 when they introduced the 2003 model Accord. Lightyears ahead of the competition at the time.
The 03 Accord was not light years ahead of the midsize competition, lets not forget the then new Altima was available, as was a new Camry. So at best the Accord was competitive, but not light years as you mention.
"And we've all been talking about JD powers and consumer report's long term reliability studies... they both are confirming studies that show that the difference between one brand and another usually does not exceed 1 extra problem over a five year history. I understand you want to make a mountain out of a mole-hill to justify the extra expense, but really, the differences are not huge. Most of the cars that are in this category are very well made."
That depends on what exactly that one problem is... my brand new 2004 Ford had 10 problems in 3 years and 45k. Some of them were relatively minor, such as the rear door lock actuator failing, making the door difficult to open from the inside. Others were more serious, such as transmission work at 9,000 miles (which still did not solve the problem).
If that "1 extra problem" means a breakdown/stranding or even an expensive out of warranty repair, that's a little more than a mole-hill, at least to me.
So you were expecting the tranny problems they had a couple of years ago with the V6 copies then? Since there was no recall I'd imagine trannies are still failing here and there. :P
You're not a salesman, are you? You'll never be one with that attitude.
Ford sells 5x as many F-seris trucks as honda sells accords. does that mean trucks are better than cars?
That's because for many many years people had very limited choices when it came to trucks. It is the last thing domestic companies have to hold them afloat. You can bet they are worried about the bigger and better Japanese trucks coming into the market now. Is it the beginning of the end?
If that "1 extra problem" means a breakdown/stranding or even an expensive out of warranty repair, that's a little more than a mole-hill, at least to me.
Yes, but you assume more than you should. Where is the data that suggests that extra problem is one that would strand a person? There is some info on CR as to specific probs, but unfortunately I have not seen other sources supporting these findings. Given that CR pulls data only from a small unrepresentative sample of the population, I hesitate to read too much into their conlusions unless the differences are drastic (red dot vs black dot). And again, the differences between brands are minor over a five year period in most of these cars in this segment in problem areas that would leave a person stranded.
And when it comes to probabilities of that one extra problem being minor (one that does not require emergency and immediate service) are far greater than the chances of having a major problem (since the amount of minor problems far exceed the amount of major problems that can happen in a car).
So not only is your argument assuming the worst without citing any evidence to support your assumption, but it would also seem the odds of having a minor problem far exceed the chances of having a major problem. So yeah, it's still a mole-hill.
Accords don't have options, they only have models. VP,LX,SE,EX,EX-L,EX-L-Nav, LX-V6,SE-V6,EX-V6,EX-V6-Nav,EX-V6-6spd
Since it was a V6 Auto, it is an LXV6,SEV6, or EXV6. I think the difference is sunroof or not, and a few minor things people are unlikely to notice in that type of exposure. The equipment seems pretty comparable. I am not as familiar with Toyota's models and packages.
The different models come with vast differences in equipment levels and prices.
The differences in SE-V6 and EX-V6 are as night and day as LX 4-cyl and EX-L 4-cyl, and their $4,000 difference in MSRP reflects that. It isn't just minor stuff. it's leather, heated seats, auto climate control, black plastic trim vs. wood/alumininum trim, etc...
I don't consider leather, heated seats, and auto climate control to be unlikely to be noticed, or "minor," but that's just me.
So you were expecting the tranny problems they had a couple of years ago with the V6 copies then? Since there was no recall I'd imagine trannies are still failing here and there.
There was a major TSB and a warranty extension, covering all transmissions in 2003 and 2004 V6 Accords that failed within a massive number of miles (100k maybe?).
You made it sound like Honda didn't cover their customers, when the did in fact do so.
Hertz Global Holdings Inc. said Thursday it will spend $68 million to add 3,400 Toyota Prius hybrids to its fleets by 2008. And Avis Budget Group Inc. said this week it plans to make 1,000 hybrid Prius vehicles available for rent as early as next week.
Enterprise Rent-A-Car also operates a fleet of more than 3,000 hybrid vehicles...
Chee, the automotive analyst, said the rentals offer Toyota Motor Corp. a chance to showcase the Prius, as well as give potential buyers a chance to decide if a hybrid is right for them.
"I do think it's a risky move for Toyota, because what they're saying is: 'Here's the car, here's how it drives, we stand by our power train, and we think it'll win people over,'" Chee said.
Hmmm, sound anything like Hyundai's big move into the rental/fleet segment a couple years ago and subsequent cut back?
Do the same standards for criticism of Hyundai Sonata rental/fleet sales apply to the Toyota Pious?
Do the same standards for criticism of Hyundai Sonata rental/fleet sales apply to the Toyota Pious?
I guess it depends on the ratio they dump into fleet sales. If it is a massive number like Hyundai did, then the Prius' value will drop. If they keep it limited to a few thousand per year (say, less than 6k) then there shouldn't be much of an issue.
So you're saying Accord's relatively few problems with a few of their transmissions in one model year (which of course were replaced under warranty) somehow diminishes their reputation for outstanding quality over 20+ years of American automotive acceptance?
Their record of quality compared to Ford's isn't a fair fight for Ford. The American consumer has showed that.
When the Fusion (will that be the car's name in 4 years or will Ford change it?) can rack up the successes of the Accord, the world will be stunned.
There was a major TSB and a warranty extension, covering all transmissions in 2003 and 2004 V6 Accords that failed within a massive number of miles (100k maybe?).
They were failing early on grad. It didn't take them 100k+ miles to fail.
You made it sound like Honda didn't cover their customers, when the did in fact do so.
I never said that. However you and others blow by this tranny problem like it was nothing. Most recalls from Ford, GM, etc. result from small numbers of part failures so why didn't Honda recall their tranny too? IIRC the tranny failures weren't of the "my car won't go in reverse" nature, but rather the "holy cow my wheels just locked up at 75 mph on the highway" nature.
Recalls can be voluntary and a lot are. Honda didn't do everyone a favor by extending the warranty. Only replacing those trannies would have made owners safer. And it wasn't just the Accord that had this problem either as you probably well know.
So you're saying Accord's relatively few problems with a few of their transmissions in one model year (which of course were replaced under warranty) somehow diminishes their reputation for outstanding quality over 20+ years of American automotive acceptance?
Nope, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that every mfr has it's share of problems if you look deep enough for them. Tranny failures are NOT something you brush under the carpet IMO. The playing field has been leveled. Get used to it and let that breath out now. :P
Furthermore, Ford, GM, and all other mfrs replace faulty parts under warranty. Why point out that Honda did too? It's not like they did anything any other mfr would have done. :confuse: Heck, Ford extended the warranty on the last gen Focus' powertrain to 100k miles just to show everyone that it was still a good car despite all of the nagging recalls.
"what I doubt, in effect, is that these were 'real' people (or everyday buyers in your words) in the sense that they weren't 'pre-qualified' by Ford in the first place. "
This is a laugh! Don't you think Car and Driver would have caught wind of this if Ford hand picked these people? Car and Driver was a neutral party. Can't you just live with the Fusion won in this challenge? The difference here is that it is not just one "expert" with a magazine that has to keep the sales up and make the masses happy. These are everyday consumers. This is the reason why Car and Driver was there in the first place, ya think? Ford sponsered/paid for it. I would no doubt agree with it being a lopsided challenge if Ford did it by themselves.
"The Ford challenge was indeed paid for, sponsored, concocted, conceived, and advertised by Ford!
If that doesn't tell you it was rigged I don't know what does!!! I don't care what Ford writes about the Challenge. Don't believe everything you read! Consider the source! "
Where does Car and Driver fit into this then? So, whan the Accord wins first place in the media, we are not to believe it?
This is going back into the "Let's Talk Media" discussion again. This Ford commercial stuff is getting REALLY OLD around here, and doesn't really benefit the discussion of the actual cars, does it? The dead horse is bruised and bleeding...
Styling wise.. Park a Fusion side by side with an Accord or a Camry. The Fusion makes these other 2 look plain frumpy.. The Ford sales person was so confident he actually drove the Fusion to a Honda and a Toyota lot and we compared the cars side by side for about an hour each car. This was a dealership that offered about 8 different car brands along a long strip of roadway.
"Get back to us in ten years and let us know how the Fusion did. In the meantime, we know how an Accord will do."
Dejavue again.. I hear this same story over and over again. I heard it when I bought my Escort in 1991, My Ranger in 1996, My Escape in 2001.. all had high miles and ran great at sale. Game over, news flash.. Honda/Toyota no longer have the reliability arena cornered..
Park a Fusion side by side with an Accord or a Camry. The Fusion makes these other 2 look plain frumpy.
Not to me. The Accord's LED taillights add a touch of high-end car, while the Fusion's mirrored taillights are just a bit too boy-racer to me, like a ricer's 8 year old Civic or 12 year old Accord. Personally, I don't want my ride "pimped." The high rear deck also limits rear visibility.
Style is completely subjective, and isn't really quantifiable.
I agree there. Reliability isn't nearly the concern it was 15 years ago. I'd still avoid Chrysler (watched my father get burned twice by them), but any other company would be heartily in the running with me these days. They're all getting good/better with each year it seems.
Don't worry, we don't all feel that Ford will never make a comparable car to Honda, Toyota, etc... Ford had quality problems, but 2007 quality is not the same as that in 1977 or 1987 (or even 1997), and people are realizing that.
Ford Fusion didn't meet my needs, but that doesn't mean it was an inferior vehicle. This, coming from a Honda owner.
3400 Hertz plus 1,000 Avis in the next six months, plus however many Pios' Enterprise has, and it looks like much more than 6,000 units on an annualized basis.
We know it's 4400 units from now to the end of the year just for Hertz & Avis. Additional Enterprise units? We could be looking at over 6,000 units before January, 2008.
P.S. That's about $20K per copy (about $1K less than invoice), what are dealers getting for these cars?
I don't know either, I was just posing a question (in response to many prior posts) about how rental/fleet sales cheapen the value of a car. But, obviously, your 6K target is on the low side.
Have to agree with you. My last two Sebrings have had problems. One thing Chrysler still does well - their V6's get excellent fuel economy. Both the Sebrings were used for business travel and both delivered 30 - 32 MPG running 75 on the interstates with the 2.7Liter 200HP engine.
I thought I qualified that statement with enough "ifs" but anyway, no different than you assuming any problems between brands would be minor to the owner. I'm not a huge fan of CR data either, but they have been on the money regarding where the problems were on most of my prior vehicles.
Minor/major, I guess that is personal and relative. My last Ford had a transmission issue. At 9k they slapped a band-aid on it (still a pretty involved procedure) and said "all fixed." It wasn't any better. After that, they "couldn't duplicate the problem." When the warranty ran out at 36K I had the full transmission service done. Little help. So I checked the good 'ol Edmunds "maintenance and repair" forums and people were replacing trannies out of warranty. I'd probably have kept it if not for being worried about that and other issues. If I could have avoided that one problem by buying a different vehicle in the first place, it would have been worth it *to me.* We're not talking stranding, however several trips to dealer and eventual loss of faith in the vehicle out of warranty.
The 03 Accord was not light years ahead of the midsize competition, lets not forget the then new Altima was available, as was a new Camry. So at best the Accord was competitive, but not light years as you mention.
Don't forget the brand-new Mazda6 was out for '03 as well.
If, and I mean IF, the Accord was "lightyears" ahead of the competition, it probably would've beaten the Infiniti G35 for Motor Trend COTY.
The Accord redesign kept it one of the top competitors in the class, but I'd hardly call it "lightyears" ahead.
Other car makers are severely criticized for selling into fleets and rentals. It lowers resale value for one quote from posters.
Here the Prius had just had slowing sales. Magically it's a plus from the auto analyst that selling into fleets and rentals is going to be GOOD for the image. Duhhhhhhh. Not true. It just shows the actual lack of sales for the Prius.
Comments
Wow - that buyer's remorse from a day ago has disappeared?
Did I really say that we had buyer's remorse? Actually, in a way, I do wish we had bought an I4 Fusion instead of the V6 with AWD, since we don't "need" either but the car is indeed very satisfying. Our only "complaint" has been the in-city mileage, but that is gradually improving and we only have 3,400 miles on the car.
If it is discounted a lot, it can still matter to the (would be) cash buyer (such as myself). When I compared prices, if there was 0% financing that had a value equal to what I would earn in a tax exempt money market fund by taking the loan, rather than paying cash.
Currently if I were buying a $20,000 car, 0% for 36 months would be worth maybe around $1200.
Just like somebody else might make a statement like the 08 Fusion that is presumed to have the new DT 3.5 will blow off all its competitors - how do you KNOW what Honda is going to do? I have yet to see anything but some car show pictures and nothing in terms of engine specs, FE ratings etc.. A logical assumption, I think, that the new Accord will at least have to get up into the 270hp territory to match the Camry and Altima, anything much more than that may create a little torque steer overkill much like the TL-S. How could the new Accord 'blow away' the competition?
How about a 170hp+, 350 lb. ft. high tech clean diesel that gets 30+ mpg EPA combined? They would have an instant 6 month waiting list and probably be able to price it accord-ingly (pun intended)!
Captain2,
According to what I have read, the 2008 Fusion will not have the new 3.5-liter V6. FoMoCo is sticking with the tried and true 3.0 liter V6 in the 2008 Fusion.
I chose the LX V6 because you get all the goodies except leather and a sunroof.
I'd rather have the V6 in the Fusion vs. the 4. I know the gas mileage isn't the best but I'm sure you'll get more quality miles on the V6, in better comfort, road security, comfort, on demand power, and resale.
and of course the brakes on the accord have been tested to be pretty lackluster and in some cases worst in class. personally, I'd rather have an engine that was a few tenths slower to 60 than 15 feet shorter to get back to 0 mph; at least in an emergency stop, the fusion would be more likely to avoid an accident.
then of course, we could talk about the looks... personally I think the Fusion is pretty striking, and not too far out there like the Altima (at least the taillights) whereas the Accord is not offensive or anything, but isn't a standout either.
AWD is another reason to like some versions of the Fusion... although I don't have AWD on my mazda6, I did have it on my Legacy and it was valuable in more than just bad weather. when driving at anything more than 20mph, grip and traction is always a good thing and anything that helps improve this can either be safer or more fun.
And of course the recent reliability reports in consumer reports and jd powers seem to confirm that the Fusion is holding up amongst the best of all automobiles.
These are all good reasons to consider the Fusion over any car. Would I buy one though? Nope, I'm quite happy with my Mazda6.
AAAARGH...my dealer told me that I had to hold on to the loan for at least 3 months or else the rebate would be taken back! Oh well, my net was around $740 which still isn't so bad. I hate slimy dealers!
Get back to us in ten years and let us know how the Fusion did. In the meantime, we know how an Accord will do.
No, you think and hope you know how well an Accord will hold up. Just like stocks and mutual funds...past performance does not guarantee anything. I like Honda engineers also...but look at their formula 1 cars; they are in last place right now despite spending 500 million a year. Honda engineers are great, but they are not infallible.
And we've all been talking about JD powers and consumer report's long term reliability studies... they both are confirming studies that show that the difference between one brand and another usually does not exceed 1 extra problem over a five year history. I understand you want to make a mountain out of a mole-hill to justify the extra expense, but really, the differences are not huge. Most of the cars that are in this category are very well made.
sales numbers are meaningless. Ford sells 5x as many F-seris trucks as honda sells accords. does that mean trucks are better than cars?
To all those who ask, how will that fusion be in 10yrs, I know how my accord will be, I'd say
1. I'd be willing to bet you an accord that a fusion (properly maintained) will have about the same amount of problems as any accord, camry, altima ect
2. Honda is every bit as capable of screwing up as anyone else. Nissan (nor its customers) foresaw an engine problem in the fist month of 2006 production that would destroy sales of the sentra and altima for the entire year. (the sentra still hasn't recovered) It was that unexpected, (and uncommon with nissan) mistake that contributed the most to honda passing nissan in sales last year.
The 03 Accord was not light years ahead of the midsize competition, lets not forget the then new Altima was available, as was a new Camry. So at best the Accord was competitive, but not light years as you mention.
That depends on what exactly that one problem is... my brand new 2004 Ford had 10 problems in 3 years and 45k. Some of them were relatively minor, such as the rear door lock actuator failing, making the door difficult to open from the inside. Others were more serious, such as transmission work at 9,000 miles (which still did not solve the problem).
If that "1 extra problem" means a breakdown/stranding or even an expensive out of warranty repair, that's a little more than a mole-hill, at least to me.
So you were expecting the tranny problems they had a couple of years ago with the V6 copies then? Since there was no recall I'd imagine trannies are still failing here and there. :P
You're not a salesman, are you? You'll never be one with that attitude.
Ford sells 5x as many F-seris trucks as honda sells accords. does that mean trucks are better than cars?
That's because for many many years people had very limited choices when it came to trucks. It is the last thing domestic companies have to hold them afloat. You can bet they are worried about the bigger and better Japanese trucks coming into the market now. Is it the beginning of the end?
You gotta be kidding....
Yes, but you assume more than you should. Where is the data that suggests that extra problem is one that would strand a person? There is some info on CR as to specific probs, but unfortunately I have not seen other sources supporting these findings. Given that CR pulls data only from a small unrepresentative sample of the population, I hesitate to read too much into their conlusions unless the differences are drastic (red dot vs black dot). And again, the differences between brands are minor over a five year period in most of these cars in this segment in problem areas that would leave a person stranded.
And when it comes to probabilities of that one extra problem being minor (one that does not require emergency and immediate service) are far greater than the chances of having a major problem (since the amount of minor problems far exceed the amount of major problems that can happen in a car).
So not only is your argument assuming the worst without citing any evidence to support your assumption, but it would also seem the odds of having a minor problem far exceed the chances of having a major problem. So yeah, it's still a mole-hill.
LX-V6,SE-V6,EX-V6,EX-V6-Nav,EX-V6-6spd
Since it was a V6 Auto, it is an LXV6,SEV6, or EXV6. I think the difference is sunroof or not, and a few minor things people are unlikely to notice in that type of exposure. The equipment seems pretty comparable. I am not as familiar with Toyota's models and packages.
The different models come with vast differences in equipment levels and prices.
The differences in SE-V6 and EX-V6 are as night and day as LX 4-cyl and EX-L 4-cyl, and their $4,000 difference in MSRP reflects that. It isn't just minor stuff. it's leather, heated seats, auto climate control, black plastic trim vs. wood/alumininum trim, etc...
I don't consider leather, heated seats, and auto climate control to be unlikely to be noticed, or "minor," but that's just me.
There was a major TSB and a warranty extension, covering all transmissions in 2003 and 2004 V6 Accords that failed within a massive number of miles (100k maybe?).
You made it sound like Honda didn't cover their customers, when the did in fact do so.
Enterprise Rent-A-Car also operates a fleet of more than 3,000 hybrid vehicles...
Chee, the automotive analyst, said the rentals offer Toyota Motor Corp. a chance to showcase the Prius, as well as give potential buyers a chance to decide if a hybrid is right for them.
"I do think it's a risky move for Toyota, because what they're saying is: 'Here's the car, here's how it drives, we stand by our power train, and we think it'll win people over,'" Chee said.
Hmmm, sound anything like Hyundai's big move into the rental/fleet segment a couple years ago and subsequent cut back?
Do the same standards for criticism of Hyundai Sonata rental/fleet sales apply to the Toyota Pious?
I guess it depends on the ratio they dump into fleet sales. If it is a massive number like Hyundai did, then the Prius' value will drop. If they keep it limited to a few thousand per year (say, less than 6k) then there shouldn't be much of an issue.
Their record of quality compared to Ford's isn't a fair fight for Ford. The American consumer has showed that.
When the Fusion (will that be the car's name in 4 years or will Ford change it?) can rack up the successes of the Accord, the world will be stunned.
I wouldn't hold your breath.
They were failing early on grad. It didn't take them 100k+ miles to fail.
You made it sound like Honda didn't cover their customers, when the did in fact do so.
I never said that. However you and others blow by this tranny problem like it was nothing. Most recalls from Ford, GM, etc. result from small numbers of part failures so why didn't Honda recall their tranny too? IIRC the tranny failures weren't of the "my car won't go in reverse" nature, but rather the "holy cow my wheels just locked up at 75 mph on the highway" nature.
Recalls can be voluntary and a lot are. Honda didn't do everyone a favor by extending the warranty. Only replacing those trannies would have made owners safer. And it wasn't just the Accord that had this problem either as you probably well know.
Answer me why does the Camry finish LAST in the consumer reviews above? These are actual owners of Camry vehicles, not 1 "expert".
Nope, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that every mfr has it's share of problems if you look deep enough for them. Tranny failures are NOT something you brush under the carpet IMO. The playing field has been leveled. Get used to it and let that breath out now. :P
Furthermore, Ford, GM, and all other mfrs replace faulty parts under warranty. Why point out that Honda did too? It's not like they did anything any other mfr would have done. :confuse: Heck, Ford extended the warranty on the last gen Focus' powertrain to 100k miles just to show everyone that it was still a good car despite all of the nagging recalls.
Because it doesn't excel at anything but rather does everything very well. The same reasons the Explorer and Escape sold so well for Ford.
This is a laugh! Don't you think Car and Driver would have caught wind of this if Ford hand picked these people? Car and Driver was a neutral party. Can't you just live with the Fusion won in this challenge? The difference here is that it is not just one "expert" with a magazine that has to keep the sales up and make the masses happy. These are everyday consumers. This is the reason why Car and Driver was there in the first place, ya think? Ford sponsered/paid for it. I would no doubt agree with it being a lopsided challenge if Ford did it by themselves.
Funny, I know 3 people with Neons and they all say they are fine.. :surprise:
If that doesn't tell you it was rigged I don't know what does!!! I don't care what Ford writes about the Challenge. Don't believe everything you read! Consider the source! "
Where does Car and Driver fit into this then?
So, whan the Accord wins first place in the media, we are not to believe it?
Maybe we can carry it to Let's Talk Media?
Dejavue again.. I hear this same story over and over again. I heard it when I bought my Escort in 1991, My Ranger in 1996, My Escape in 2001.. all had high miles and ran great at sale. Game over, news flash.. Honda/Toyota no longer have the reliability arena cornered..
Not to me. The Accord's LED taillights add a touch of high-end car, while the Fusion's mirrored taillights are just a bit too boy-racer to me, like a ricer's 8 year old Civic or 12 year old Accord. Personally, I don't want my ride "pimped." The high rear deck also limits rear visibility.
Style is completely subjective, and isn't really quantifiable.
When the Fusion (will that be the car's name in 4 years or will Ford change it?) can rack up the successes of the Accord, the world will be stunned.
I wouldn't hold your breath."
Yep, no-way, no how will Ford Motor Company, or General Motors EVER build a car to match a Honda or Toyota.. Good Grief... :sick:
Ford Fusion didn't meet my needs, but that doesn't mean it was an inferior vehicle. This, coming from a Honda owner.
We know it's 4400 units from now to the end of the year just for Hertz & Avis. Additional Enterprise units? We could be looking at over 6,000 units before January, 2008.
P.S. That's about $20K per copy (about $1K less than invoice), what are dealers getting for these cars?
Beats me. I never shopped for any hybrid, much less a 'Yota.
Regards:
OldCEM
I thought I qualified that statement with enough "ifs" but anyway, no different than you assuming any problems between brands would be minor to the owner. I'm not a huge fan of CR data either, but they have been on the money regarding where the problems were on most of my prior vehicles.
Minor/major, I guess that is personal and relative. My last Ford had a transmission issue. At 9k they slapped a band-aid on it (still a pretty involved procedure) and said "all fixed." It wasn't any better. After that, they "couldn't duplicate the problem." When the warranty ran out at 36K I had the full transmission service done. Little help. So I checked the good 'ol Edmunds "maintenance and repair" forums and people were replacing trannies out of warranty. I'd probably have kept it if not for being worried about that and other issues. If I could have avoided that one problem by buying a different vehicle in the first place, it would have been worth it *to me.* We're not talking stranding, however several trips to dealer and eventual loss of faith in the vehicle out of warranty.
Don't forget the brand-new Mazda6 was out for '03 as well.
If, and I mean IF, the Accord was "lightyears" ahead of the competition, it probably would've beaten the Infiniti G35 for Motor Trend COTY.
The Accord redesign kept it one of the top competitors in the class, but I'd hardly call it "lightyears" ahead.
Here the Prius had just had slowing sales. Magically it's a plus from the auto analyst that selling into fleets and rentals is going to be GOOD for the image. Duhhhhhhh. Not true. It just shows the actual lack of sales for the Prius.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,