Midsize Sedans 2.0

urnews · August 2007

I am blown away by the mileage you report though.

You are getting similar mileage to a full-size SUV out of a mid-size sedan. I would not be happy with that by any means.

Do you expect it to improve? If not why stay in a sedan at all when you can get twice the space with the same mileage in something bigger?

The mileage culprit, I believe, is the all-wheel drive and the type of driving, as Allen Kirky noted. Even our 2000 2.0-liter, 4-cylinder, automatic transmission Ford Focus station wagon only averages 17-19 mpg over the same route.

But I certainly agree that 14.8 mpg is the pits for a mid-size sedan. It does yield 24-24 mpg on trips however and the revised EPA estimate for this drive train is 17 mpg city and 24 mpg highway.

We really like everything about the vehicle except for the poor gas mileage. If I'd had any inkling whatsoever that the mileage was going to be this bad I would have bought something else.

A mid-size sedan is plenty large enough for our purposes (and most people's). In retrospect, a 4-cylinder engine would have been a better choice. It might not have equaled the EPA estimate in our driving circumstances but it would certainly do better than the 14.8 we are constantly getting.

Since we have 4,300 miles on the car, I don't expect any improvement either. It's a bitter pill but it is still a fine automobile otherwise.

urnews · August 2007

The 2 Fusions I test drove just seemed adequate whereas Accords and the new Sonata were at a different level altogether.

And what's with the funky turn signal stalk at 10:00 on the Fusion? Weird.

We didn't test drive an Accord or Sonata. Considered the Accord to be too expensive. Same dealer sells them both in our burg and we liked our Ford, Lincoln, Mercury dealer (Sherwood of Salisbury) better.

Wife also wanted a Mustang (not practical) but was willing to settle for a Fusion. You know how that goes. Plus, styling was a big factor. We both liked the looks of the Fusion better than the other mid-size sedans.

Yeah, the 10 o'clock turn signal stalk was a bit weird at first but we like it now.

So, what did you buy, an Accord or a Sonata? How do you like it?

jeffyscott · August 2007

If I'd had any inkling whatsoever that the mileage was going to be this bad...

Well...sorry, but I'd have to say that getting 17-19 mpg in a 2.0-liter, 4-cylinder, automatic transmission Ford Focus station wagon should have given you more than an inkling of what to expect in a V6 AWD Fusion. Your Focus Wagon would have had about 26 city listed on the sticker and you were getting 17-19.

The Fusion had 19 city on the sticker, you should reasonably have expected to get 7-9 mpg less or alternatively you should have expected about 70% of that figure, based on your Focus. Those expectations would have led you to expect maybe 13 mpg at best. You should be actually be happy that your Fusion is doing better than the Focus relative to its EPA rating

andres3 · August 2007

I have to agree with you 100% here. If you have already owned a Ford and it delivered poor gas mileage under the old EPA rating, and then you went out and bought another Ford, you should have known there was a strong liklihood of repeat poor performance.

You don't buy Ford's to get good gas mileage.

andres3 · August 2007

But much more importantly, how long have those 25 year Ohio (has it really been that long?) Honda workers been building V6 Accords? Or even better still, V6 Accords with more than 200 HP?

andres3 · August 2007

Ever stop to think that maybe the transmission mechanic he's going to is incompetent? Not Honda's fault at all (except the initial tranny).

03accordman · August 2007

"Not too sure about that... My buddy's 02 Accord EX-V6(Please die already) Died while driving - bad tranny. Rebuilt it (at his expense). Died again. New tranny (again, his expense) and it's slipping already. 68k miles. Please die already. And the sad thing is that he wants the 08 Accord:"

Honda extended the transmission warranty on all 1998-2002 Accords to 100k miles; why did he pay out of pocket? Sounds suspicious; not that it didn't happen, but that he had to pay for it.

kdshapiro · August 2007

Well I happen not to think highly of Nissan, Saturn, Ford, Kia, Hyundai or Mazda. If it shows in my typing then I'm being honest. I've had bad experiences with Nissan and Ford, I don't believe though, I called them junk.

thegraduate · August 2007

You know andres, you'd avoid a lot of heat if you didn't make such broad stroke statements like "all Hondas in a shop are there for other maintenance."

It's not true buddy, I'm sorry. I'm beginning to wonder if you are actually serious about some of the statements you post, or if you are just trying to incite a riot (of laughter).

I'm from a full-blooded Honda family (one grandmother has a 97 Civic LX, the other an '02 Accord LX, my mom and dad have an '07 Civic EX, my great aunt has an '05 Odyssey EX, and I have two Accords.

Guess what? Hondas CAN have problems, just like Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, Ford, etc... They AREN'T all in for maintenance. My grandparents just had their alternator replaced at 110,000 miles on the Civic, and my 1996 had an emissions recall performed at 88,000 miles because it caused 02 sensors to go bad. Our 2000 Odyssey had more rattles than any vehicle I've ridden in, and my dad's 2003 Accord had to have the headliner replaced in order to fix a rattle; not to mention the LCD display failure at 30k miles.

Hondas are wonderful cars, but its competitors can be just as wonderful if you prefer their characteristics. I just happen to like Honda's attributes and "better than average" reliability. If I wanted perfect reliability, I'd have to walk, and even then my bad knee would probably put me down to "average"

thegraduate · August 2007

You don't buy Ford's to get good gas mileage.

oh COME ON man!

It's obvious that his route is the culprit of his poor mileage. You are taking every opporutnity to make an invalid argument against Ford (or, in simpler terms - BASH).

I dont have a Ford, I don't plan on buying one soon, but this is getting CRAZY.

andres3 · August 2007

I don't think I was out of line, Ford has never been known to get good gas mileage. Honda and Toyota have always been known for that.

His mileage is POORER than normal due to his driving habits/route, but I guarantee you if he had the V6 Accord he could floor it everywhere he ever went at every stoplight, and he'd probably get the same mileage, if not better.

I've never owned a Ford, but my impression from other's Fords, my friends Ford from a while back, a really old Escort, and other friends of friends is that they are junk; except of course, there stuff from maybe the last 2 years.

andres3 · August 2007

No one is saying Honda's are perfect (especially the USA built ones) but they are really good, far above average.

And not only that, the problems you have (even as you describe with your family and friends) are all very minor both in hassle and cost (trust me on this).

One question: how many times have you called a tow truck in to move your Hondas?

ergsum · August 2007

I don't mean to throw fuel on any particular fire, but here is an interesting article I found out of curiosity comparing warranty costs from the larger manufacturers. The numbers are not broken down on a per vehicle basis. One would have to determine the approximate number of vehicles still under warranty coverage per manufacturer during the the period in question.

http://www.financialweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070820/REG/70817026/10- 36

urnews · August 2007

A very interesting article, ergsum. Thanks for the link.

ergsum · August 2007

Additional info.

http://www.warrantyweek.com/archive/ww20060620.html

jd10013 · August 2007

Its much more than one in a million, my offer still stands, I'll take you around some garages show you reality.

jd10013 · August 2007

It's not true buddy, I'm sorry. I'm beginning to wonder if you are actually serious about some of the statements you post, or if you are just trying to incite a riot (of laughter).

I think its the latter, but everybody understands that by now. But your point is right on grad. I had a sentra go 220k with no work, have a 200sx with 147k thats never needed fixed, and thats the reason I bought my alti. But, I know nissan's break down, I've seen plenty in shops and being towed, and once in awhile one on the road. It's one of the reasons I've come to believe most cars are built of fairly equal quality. They just need to be taken care of. Treat your baby right, and she'll treat you right. It's worked for me over 3 nissan's, 1 honda, and about 500k miles.

neteng101 · August 2007

The '02s were know to have issues with their tranny. Its likely that the tranny in the '08 Accords will be fine as its nothing new. The VCM V6 though is something I would be concerned about.

Now if one wants the crown jewel of 4-cylinder motivated sedans, then one needs to look no further, this is Honda territory all the way.

backy · August 2007

Hondas are wonderful cars, but its competitors can be just as wonderful if you prefer their characteristics.

Great observation. Sometimes we lose sight of the point that each buyer must choose the car that fits his or her needs, not our personal criteria. So while an Accord, Camry, Mazda6, Sonata et. al. may be just the right car for you or me, it won't be right for everyone. If we would all respect each other's choices this discussion (and the world maybe) would be a better place.

tlong · August 2007

Yeah, the 10 o'clock turn signal stalk was a bit weird at first but we like it now.

This is from the company that in the 1980's put the horn on the turn signal.

akirby · August 2007

I've never even noticed that the turn signal stalk is at 10 o'clock instead of 9 and I've never had a problem reaching it.

colloquor · August 2007

I would concur that Ford engines historically may not be as fuel efficient as others, but . . . I just spent 5 days and 1,400 miles in brand new 2008 Taurus (aka old Five Hundred, and yes, it was a Hertz rental) with the new 3.5L DOHC V6, and 6-speed automatic. 85% highway and 15% city with the trunk and backseat loaded with tradeshow material for my business trip. Combined mileage was 28.8MPG - not bad for such a large and heavy car. And, I didn't drive 65 on the highway either - typically 70 to 80, with a couple of blasts far above either. How far on a practically uninhabited interstate in KY, I won't say, but suffice to say Ford's new 3.5L DOHC V6 has some serious get up and go, unlike the old 3.0L Duratec.

targettuning · August 2007

Ok then lets narrow it down to MY specific 2006 Civic then which has been in the shop for oil changes has ALSO been there for repairs and or replacement of parts under warranty. So, nope I for one certainly don't buy your rather ridiculous claims and would bet no one else here does either.

akirby · August 2007

There is a new rumor that the 09 Fusion will get the 3.5L V6 after all, which sounds like a change from the original plans for only a revised 3.0L V6.

Looking at 2008 EPA numbers:

2008 Taurus 18/28
2008 Accord V6 18/29
2008 Camry V6 19/28

Given that the Fusion is 340 lbs lighter than the Taurus and assuming it does get the 3.5L V6 I would expect it to get at least 18/28 or possibly 19/29. With 268 HP this would put the Fusion on a level playing field again. And if more hp becomes necessary, Ford will have a 3.7L version and direct injection available.

Of course only Ford has AWD to enable that much power to reach the ground without massive torque steer so I don't see how the Camcords could handle 300 hp even if it was available.

jeffyscott · August 2007

With a number of assumptions in the case of Honda and Toyota, they come up with the following warranty costs per unit at your link:

That would imply that Toyota is paying around $265 per vehicle in warranty claims and Honda is paying out around $330 per automobile. That's considerably less than Ford's $585 or GM's $512, not to mention DaimlerChrysler's $1,370 per vehicle.

Taking Ford vs. Honda, assuming the difference is spread over the three year warranty period this comes to an $85 per year difference. BTW, this is in the same balpark as the ~$50 difference in repair costs that edmunds estimates for year 5 in their true cost to own figures for Accord vs. Fusion.

Cost differences of under $100 per year are not enough for me to choose one vehicle over another. I'd might want to stay away from Chysler based on this information, though...but they had nothing of interest (to me) to begin with anyway.

(Note to Andre...Honda's figure is not $0 :surprise: )

dieselone · August 2007

While I don't doubt for a minute that overall Toyota produces more reliable vehicles than GM, it's hard to compare these numbers due to vehicle mix. I'd bet GM's trucks and SUVs are more expensive to warranty than a Yaris or Camry. It would be interesting to see what the warranty costs are on each model line. One model with a huge quality problem can throw the whole thing off, like what happened to Ford a few years ago with the Powerstroke diesel that I believe cost them over a $1billion alone in warranty costs.

thegraduate · August 2007

Given that SH-AWD is working its way into all of Acura's lineup, I would imagine they will let it trickle to Honda in due time as well, especially if they have a problem to correct in the future such as torque steer.

Honda has it, they just aren't using it yet.

bristol2 · August 2007

(Note to Andre...Honda's figure is not $0 )

LOL

lilengineerboy · August 2007

One question: how many times have you called a tow truck in to move your Hondas?

1. Radiator failure
2. Main relay failure
3. Master cylinder failure
4. Distributor failure
5. Clutch slave cylinder failure
6. Starter failure
7. Ignition switch failure

All within the first 10 yrs/100k. The distributor failed again but it was after 100k so I didn't count it.

lilengineerboy · August 2007

My Contour with the 2.5l duratec and MTX75 would get 26-27 in mixed driving, slightly better than the EPA estimates. I used to get frustrated when I couldn't get 30 mpg on trips, but then I realized highway MPG was listed at 27 and I was getting 29 and change.

Given that in the last few months you've only accrued about 4k, I don't think an additional fuel cost is really impacting anything that much.

thegraduate · August 2007

To help even the mix a little, I'll tell when I've had to have it towed.

Once, and it was the dealer's fault.

In June, I had a hairline crack in the top of the radiator. I had the radiator replaced, without it ever overheating on me; never leaving me stranded.

The dealer didn't clamp the hose tightly on the bottom of the radiator, however, and it came loose, losing all of its coolant. Luckily, I saw the temp gauge rising, got to the shoulder (fun at 4PM on a workday in 95-degree heat), and called the dealer. Since the work had just been done two days prior, they sent a tow truck and a service representative to drive me behind the tow truck back to the dealer.

In truth, they ought to be glad I saved their butts. If I had kept driving, the car would've overheated and blown the head gasket, and they'd be the one covering the repair. Instead, they had a $80 towing bill to cover, and that was it.

This was with about 173,000 miles on my 1996 Accord LX 4-cylinder.

So, yes, I was towed once, but it was indirectly the car's fault (I pay enough attention to my car to as to catch problems before they leave me stranded, such as seeing the radiator crack and the small leak that was getting larger).

lilengineerboy · August 2007

This was with about 173,000 miles on my 1996 Accord LX 4-cylinder.

Eh, you are over the 100k/10yr limit, I can't even hold the car accountable for that. If thats the case, I get to add 2 more, another distributor (that failed the week we were closing on our house

), and it blew out an o-ring on the counterbalance shaft, requiring an otherwise unnecessary timing belt/wp service and a tow. Then, they did it wrong, requiring another tow, and then then did it wrong again, but the leak was slow enough I could get back to the dealer.
My dad was teasing me that the Honda had actually been towed more times than the Reliant, which seemed to break weekly when I was growing up.

thegraduate · August 2007

That was its first time on a hook, DEFINITELY not its first repair though. Don't get those mixed up. Repair one came at 135k or so.

baggs32 · August 2007

One model with a huge quality problem can throw the whole thing off, like what happened to Ford a few years ago with the Powerstroke diesel that I believe cost them over a $1billion alone in warranty costs.

Ford doesn't mfr that engine though so I have to wonder how much of of the warranty costs go to the mfr of record.

dieselone · August 2007

Ford doesn't mfr that engine though so I have to wonder how much of of the warranty costs go to the mfr of record.

True, I know Ford is in a fight with Navistar about the warranty costs. So I believe Ford had to foot the bill and is trying to get reimbursed.

andres3 · August 2007

You are living in a dream world if you think vehicles have similar "fairly equal" quality across the board.

I will join you on a sightseeing tour of car garages and shops if you will try something other than Nissans, Mazda's, HOnda's, and Toyotas (hint domestic car, not truck) for 100,000 miles and then say the same statement you are now saying.

andres3 · August 2007

What has your 2006 Civic (a first year model) been in the shop for repairs and replacements for? What parts and replacements?

Just curious

jeffyscott · August 2007

One question: how many times have you called a tow truck in to move your Hondas?

It is a myth that folks who drive anything but hondas or Toyotas are constantly getting towed and/or "stranded". That sort of thing just does not happen much with any car.

I had a 1986 Horizon for 12 years and 120,000 miles never towed, never stranded. Same with a 1989 Plymouth Voyager also in 12 years 120K mi. 1997 Windstar that is still in the family, is at 10 years 110 K mi also never towed/stranded.

A 1996 Contour was towed twice after I had given it away to my son. Once was due to broken timing belt at 106 K mi or so, this occured 3 blocks from home. This was not unexpected and was really more due to what could be considered to be deferring maintenance as long as possible. The second tow was when it was totaled in an accident at about 112K.

After 1995 Contour was given to my daughter it had radiator explode with about 140K mi and she was stranded and towed.

So in 20 years and about 450,000 total miles with American makes (the contours were bought used, so I am only counting the miles during the time we owned them) there is a total of one tow/stranding that was not due to accident or deferred maintenance.

andres3 · August 2007

Note to you... Edmunds must use averages to come out with it's cost to own figures... averages over thousands of cars.

If you buy the one that costs $100 more a year to repair, that might mean you get the one that costs $1,000 more a year to repair, since there will be many MANY more of those for company X (to obtain that higher average) than company Y (with the lower average).

Kirstie_H · August 2007

Can we knock it off now? Seriously, this has been done and done and done to death. The SAME conversation was happening like, 2 months ago. Nobody won then, and no one will win now.

And frankly, it's boring and uninformative for anyone looking for a real conversation about the features, benefits, and drawbacks about midsize sedans.

No more. Please.

pat · August 2007

You beat me to it by mere seconds!!

Okay guys - you got two of us telling you enough of this. Please move on.

lilengineerboy · August 2007

A 1996 Contour was towed twice after I had given it away to my son. Once was due to broken timing belt at 106 K mi or so, this occured 3 blocks from home. This was not unexpected and was really more due to what could be considered to be deferring maintenance as long as possible. The second tow was when it was totaled in an accident at about 112K.

After 1995 Contour was given to my daughter it had radiator explode with about 140K mi and she was stranded and towed.

My Contour V6 got hooked 2x, both times it was a waterpump. In my Japanese car, the rubber band in the engine would've been replaced by then and with it, the waterpump.

My '89 Galant (car of the year at the time) was never on a hook in 185k miles.

thegraduate · August 2007

Talking about the midsize vehicles, not their makes and warranty costs?

Here are a few EASY topics...

1.) 2 Different Accord 4-cylinder engines; how will the market respond, if at all?

2.) Based on what we know, will Chevrolet's new Malibu be a rental queen like the Impala, or a real-deal competitor, like the Fusion?

3.) Your list of the top three MUST-HAVE features in your new midsize car, besides the obvious A/C, Stereo, PW/PL etc... and what model fits your needs best? Which ones needs work?

How about these, host?

lilengineerboy · August 2007

1.) 2 Different Accord 4-cylinder engines; how will the market respond, if at all?

Like back in the day with the 90s models, EX had 140 while the DX/LX had 130, and then the EX got Vtec and the LX didn't, etc. I am thinking no one cares.

2.) Based on what we know, will Chevrolet's new Malibu be a rental queen like the Impala, or a real-deal competitor, like the Fusion?

I dunno, the vehicle is not marketed to me. It does seem like it has a lot of features though.

Your list of the top three MUST-HAVE features in your new midsize car, besides the obvious A/C, Stereo, PW/PL etc... and what model fits your needs best? Which ones needs work?

I can't believe my '07 Accord lacks any kind of decent iPod interface. Criminy even Volvo can do it. I am also in the minority because I require a manual transmission. Oh, and ABS is required. Everything else I can think of is just a matter of how much you are willing to pay for a feature (although sunroofs and leather heated seats are very nice).

andres3 · August 2007

1) Just more choices.
2) Since when has the Malibu been a real deal competitor; that should answer your question.
3) Top 3 must-haves are 1. Reliability 2. Dependability 3. Durability.

elroy5 · August 2007

1.) 2 Different Accord 4-cylinder engines; how will the market respond, if at all?

It would make a difference to me. In 92 the EX had 140hp, and the LX had 125hp. I test drove the LX first, and was not going to buy an Accord, until I drove the EX. That 15hp made a big difference in that car.

2.) Based on what we know, will Chevrolet's new Malibu be a rental queen like the Impala, or a real-deal competitor, like the Fusion?

It may be sold less to fleets, until low retail sales force them to re-think that decision.

3.) Your list of the top three MUST-HAVE features in your new midsize car, besides the obvious A/C, Stereo, PW/PL etc... and what model fits your needs best? Which ones needs work?

V6, Alloy wheels, ABS, 4 wheel Disk brakes, Auto climate control, and would it be possible to get leather seats without power or heat?

bristol2 · August 2007

Nice post Grad!

1.) 2 Different Accord 4-cylinder engines; how will the market respond, if at all?
I think it will go completely over most buyers heads. They will buy for trim alone. I would think that if economy is your #1 priority, you should be impressed that Honda is trying to keep costs down in the entry level stuff.
Personally I look at an Accord as the opportunity to drive luxury and not pay for it. EX-L is the only way to go! Finally I am most interested in what the diesel will be like.

2.) Based on what we know, will Chevrolet's new Malibu be a rental queen like the Impala, or a real-deal competitor, like the Fusion?
I just don't believe in Chevy's commitment to passenger cars. It'll read like a real contender and feel like a rental queen.

3.) Your list of the top three MUST-HAVE features in your new midsize car, besides the obvious A/C, Stereo, PW/PL etc... and what model fits your needs best? Which ones needs work?
Mp3 interface, manual without entry level trim, I would love cooled seats. It is way too hot for most of the year down in Texas. Cooled would beat the heck out of heated for me.

jd10013 · August 2007

edit.

thegraduate · August 2007

2) Since when has the Malibu been a real deal competitor; that should answer your question.

Well, the new Malibu will be different from past Malibus, so no, it really doesn't. I'm not the forum police, just trying to look for a constructive way to get off the shameless Honda is perfect praise.

If a Malibu can beat a Camry in a comparison test (this is the current model that beat the last-gen Camry back in 2004), thaen I would say the Malibu has been competitive for a while now. The Camry is a best-seller, and a prominent magazine rated the Malibu higher, so, yeah, its competitive.

I was asking about the new one with the 3.6L engine, much more stylish interior, etc... But instead it went back to bashing the domestic *sigh :sick:

I tried.

elroy5 · August 2007

I was asking about the new one with the 3.6L engine, much more stylish interior, etc

I think the Malibu will do much better than the Aura has. It has Chevy loyal followers, It will have a 4cyl. engine available (it will, right?), and it will sell for less.

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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