2001 - 2006 Honda CR-Vs

kizhe · March 2004

Increasing Power of gasoline cars and, at the same time, making engines more economical is a nice thing, of course, who would dispute that? But the limit of of doing so will be reached pretty soon and after that major "economy" factors will be "the right foot" factor, size/weight of the car and... power of the engine. I am not talking about hybrids here.
The current trend now is exactly the opposite: popular cars now (SUV and trucks) are more powerful, heavy and bulky gas hogs. But all of it will change when gas will be more expensive.

stever · March 2004

Check out the K&N Air Filters, bolt-on power? discussion too.

Steve, Host

motordavid · March 2004

Not waving my hand from the back of the class, and most here don't seem to be big motor fans,lol!, but our '02 Vette Vert 6 Spd regularly does 30+ mpg on trips. The best I've seen, both on the 'puter and w/arith. is 33.6 on a flat and decidely careful run w/cruise on.

350+ HP, yet it Loafs along at about 1500 RPMs at 70 mph+. (5th gear is OD;6th gear is Way OD).

Not suggesting a car like this is an econo car, but it's our best mpg in our garage. One Must keep their foot out of it, however, or the mpg falls like a rock.

I enjoy reading the current threads of their CR-V mpg, though I wonder if y'all live/drive on billard table flat roads and never get above 60 mph?! The Best I've seen on our '03 is 25ish; usually 21-23, on Trips, and pretty crummy around town. That and the smallish tank, make for freq pit stops on trips, though my back and legs are ready by then from the less than generous sitting space.
BR,md

bob346 · March 2004

anyone ever notice that when you turn your headlights on the RPM,s go up, i have noticed this for quite awhile, also when you turn your heater only on it also goes up. i have 20000 miles on mine now seems all ok still like very much. hope these recalls stop as i think they will. also my drivers side door lock giving me problems sometimes it works& sometimes it doesn,t any one else notice this thanks bob346

mikefm58 · March 2004

I just put one in my '99 CRV at 75K miles. Primarily hoping it'll extend the life a bit longer (one kid in college and another almost there). I picked it up on ebay cheap. And yes, there is a cleaning/re-oiling kit, just do that once a year, maybe sooner if you live in a dusty area.

varmint · March 2004

Just read that the diesel CR-V has been approved for production. It'll only be available for the UK market, though.

ateixeira · March 2004

Cool. What engine? Will it be sourced from Isuzu?

Didn't GM have some sort of exchange with Honda, which is how they got 50,000 3.5l V6 engines for the Vue?

-juice

stevedebi · March 2004

You can't buy diesels in California, and the entire country is heading towards California emissions standards. If so, either the diesel fuel in the US is upgraded, or they will have to stop selling the diesel cars in the US.

European diesels are efficient, high MPG, and clean. This is the main reason that the Europeans aren't that impressed by Hybrids; their diesels provide similar MPG without the batteries & complications.

However the US diesel fuel won't support those capabilities over here.

varmint · March 2004

Honda got their first diesel car engine through that deal, but it was a small block for use in the Civic line.

At the same time, they began development of a diesel for the euro Accord (TSX here in NA) and now the CR-V. It's a 2.2L block that puts out impressive torque numbers, though the horsepower rating is only average compared with other engines in the same class. Kinda the reverse of what you'd expect from Honda. It's also supposed to be very smooth for a diesel.

http://irishcar.com/honaccorddslfvbbbb.htm

robr2 · March 2004

Although the current diesel fuel isn't low sulphur, federal regulations will force the manufacture of low sulpher diesel in the next 3 years or so.

That being the case, new diesels are coming into the market already. MB just reintroduced the E class, VW is expanding the TDI to the Passat, and IIRC Jeep is putting one in the Liberty.

ateixeira · March 2004

Low-sulfur diesel fuel is actually trickling in now, and in a couple of years it'll be common. Diesel still has a chance.

Check out the last C&D, IIRC, some diesels like the one in the E Class are faster and more efficient, in that Benz it costs $1100 less to boot.

The quality of US diesel has limited what they can offer up to this point, but hopefully that'll change soon.

-juice

robr2 · March 2004

Thanks - I forgot about that article in last month's C&D.

Speaking of which - this month's hasn't arrived yet.

kizhe · March 2004

So you say diesel is cheaper? Diesel engine is more economical? No good news for oil companies!? Big Oil rule the free world and would not allow that to happen. Saddam wanted to sell his oil for euros and see what happen.
Poor Saddam:-).
After oil crisis of the 70's was over, price of crude went down but not price at the pump.
I afraid that problem with diesel is not technical or ecological. Problem might be with the 'price' of diesel fuel. Price of diesel fuel was supposed to be like about 1/2-3/4 of gasoline
(until very recent time), so is the heating oil, which is not much different (only color of it) . Oil companies might not be able to justify price of diesel same as gasoline. Then they would loose lots of money if people would switch to diesel? NO WAY!
Or they might come up with some kinda scheme like ALL fuel: diesel, regular, 93 or 95 - same price $5 a gallon. :-).
Problem is: price at the pump does not reflect price of crude or cost of production. There is NO free market here. This is a mafia-like deal and feds take chunk of it in form of taxes.

stevedebi · March 2004

Actually, diesel is pretty stable here in California - about $1.70 - 2.00 per gallon the past couple of years.

It's just that the only vehicles able to use it are those over 6000 lbs (can you say "Ford Excursion"?) and those 1970s-1980's Mercedes Benz I see around town.

I don't subscribe to the conspiracy theories about fuel prices. I think the prices are being driven up by lack of refining capacity (especially here in California) coupled with the Middle East oil cartel keeping the price at what is (for them) a profitable level. But here in the US we can elect representatives to change policies - if we want.

And of course the environmentalists would love to have gas at $5 per gallon - so they protest any attempt to increase supply, as evidenced by the lawsuits filed to see how the current White House arrived at energy policies that emphasize increase in supply of energy. Well, duh. They arrived at them by determining what would be the quickest way to increase the available energy - remember the California energy crisis of 2000? What we need in this country is more green technology, but that takes time to develop. Meanwhile, the country has to keep mobile and warm in the winter. It is the job of the President to ensure that the public has the resources it needs.

Economics will drive the public to green energy, but in the public's own time, not the time of any special interest group, however noble it's purposes. Every gallon of gas used is just that much closer to alternative fuels. And auto emissions are getting cleaner all the time.

Just my opinion, of course...

kizhe · March 2004

In Europe and Canada price of gas is high NOT because cost of crude or production. Price at the pump is high because of government taxes, which should support their 'socialism'. We will be there eventually too.

stevedebi · March 2004

It is a whole different mindset in Europe, and always has been. They also tax based on the engine size, which adds value to turbocharging over there.

You make my point well. Here in America there is considerable resistance to goverment taxation of transportation, and the people have a lot of power. Proposition 13, for example, would never have been even proposed in Eurpoe, much less enacted. Our representative democracy has kept us from much of the Government opression (despite what the conspiracy theorists may believe).

joey2brix · March 2004

Say good-bye to low gas prices. With China sucking more each year as we buy more cheap goods and our stupid demand for V8 Hemi's in oversized SUV's grow, the oil gluts of yesteryear are history. I think we'll see a run on diesel cars soon and a stockpile of Durango's when it hits $3/gal this summer.

stevedebi · March 2004

You seem to be a Chrysler observer (they are the "Hemi" people). If your scenario occurs, we are likely to see a groundswell of support for more drilling and refineries...

Just wish we could get the diesels in California...

explorerx4 · March 2004

reg gas is 1.78/gal, diesel 1.75/gal.

buffybaby1 · March 2004

I just checked the gas mileage on my new 04 Ex CRV with automatic transmission. I am only getting 18.4 miles per gallon. The CRV only has 400 miles on it and it is still wintertime.My 2000 EX CRV with automatic transmission got 21.6 on the first check of gas mileage.The 2000 finally averaged 23.5 MPG after a year or two. I am very disappointed in the 18.4 MPG.I would like feedback on some of you others with 2004 Ex Crv with automatic trans.

kyfdx · March 2004

Relax.. and give it some time... If you only checked one tankful, are you the one that filled it up both times? If you scroll back a few pages, you can read about my experiment on increasing the gas mileage on my '02.

Also, my experience is Hondas engines get increasingly better gas mileage up through about 10K miles.

regards,
kyfdx

ateixeira · March 2004

Around here the price of diesel is more stable than the price of gas. It can be lower or higher at times, but it varies much less. If gas prices soar I doubt diesel will keep up.

-juice

varmint · March 2004

Europe is a different animal for many reasons. I mean, we can talk about the differences in current fuel costs all day long, but the heart of the matter goes much deeper.

For example (and this is only one example): back when most other countries were expanding or rebuilding their industrial base and commercial infrastructure, they added mass transit systems. At about the same time (mid century), the US opted to expand and develop our highways. This gave the auto industry a big financial boost, but it also pushed us toward a greater dependence on passenger cars. Let's face it. Passenger cars are not as efficient.

So, when you compare the UK or other markets with North America you have to take into account that cars are not the only transportation option. They have a different value to the people in those markets.

stevedebi · March 2004

One of the reasons mass transit works so well in Europe is that the place is SMALL. In the Northeast you have the high density, and mass transit is more practical; here in the West we are spread WAY out.

However, I will never buy a GM product because of their dispicable tactics: They went around the country and bought out every mass transit company they could find, and replaced the rail systems with busses. It happened here in LA in the late 40's. That was a watershed time because the rail lines here were in need of replacement. So it was either replace the rails or go to busses (built by GM, of course). Before the war we had a very efficient rail system that would get you just about anywhere, run very cheaply on electric cars. Similarly, Philadelphia had rail lines down every other street, providing excellent service. Then GM arrived. Oh yeah, and GM insisted that the busses would be just as clean as the electric systems.

ateixeira · March 2004

Well, never buses run on CNG and are pretty clean. The diesel fleets in DC are being replaced.

-juice

varmint · March 2004

Well, it's not just the buses. It's the trains, trolley cars, and other forms of mass transit.

But my point was that North America has developed more of a "car culture" and infrastructure than other nations. Therefore, their value of a car is different than ours. Even Canada has a somewhat different car market than we do in the US.

So, when we discuss the merits of a vehicle like the diesel CR-V, we have to take into account that it will be graded on a different curve than here in the US. For many reasons, not just the price of fuel.

ateixeira · March 2004

Well, when you look at range, diesels shine.

Let's see how the Liberty diesel sells. If there is a demand maybe Honda will consider offering the CR-V diesel.

Who here would not want an SUV that would consistently return 30mpg? With a range of 450 miles? Reasonably powered, too. I sure would.

-juice

stevedebi · March 2004

Honda doesn't make vehicles for different parts of the country. Thus all CR-Vs sold in the US meet the stringent CA smog requirements. I don't envision them making a CR-V that cannot be sold in all 50 states. It complicates assembly of the vehicles, and Honda keeps their costs low by offering only option packages, not individual options, and only a single engine option.

Thus the CR-V is cost competitive, even though it is built in high manufacturing cost areas like England and Japan.

varmint · March 2004

Right now production of the 2.2L is very limited. It's been rumored that Honda is going to shift responsibility to the Swindon plant where it will be possible to crank out more copies. But I wouldn't expect it anytime soon.

icvci · March 2004

GM is the reason Detroit's streetcars are running in Mexico City.

Thanks GM. ; (

(Of course, they do alot more economic good for my region than yours.)

robr2 · March 2004

I don't think that Honda would have a problem with limiting sales of a diesel CRV to the states that would allow it. I mean if VW and DC can handle it, I presume Honda could.

The big thing would be availability of the motors themselves.

stevedebi · March 2004

The point is that Honda as a company keeps their price down by limiting the number of variants they produce of ANY model. So I don't see them introducing two models - it would increase their costs for the US, and also require guessing how many of each engine would be desired by the public.

DC and VW have the philosophy that you can modify your car to fit your needs, with factory options. Honda builds 'em one way (in each trim level) and lets people decide if that is what they want. It reduces costs tremendously.

They do change engines on foreign CR-Vs, which have a 2.0L engine on the 2nd Gen.

robr2 · March 2004

"So I don't see them introducing two models - it would increase their costs for the US, and also require guessing how many of each engine would be desired by the public."

I don't know - they seem to do a pretty good job figuring out how many I4's and V6's they need for the Accord!!

Yes I agree - Honda keeps costs down by limiting models. OTOH, they've added manufacturing complexity in the LX and EX Accords without major price increase. IMHO, If they are going to do a diesel for Europe they can do it for the US without much more cost.

ateixeira · March 2004

Look at the volume they get from the CR-V and Element in the US - close to 200k vehicles. Surely that can justify a 2nd engine.

Any how, I think a hybrid is more likely.

-juice

varmint · March 2004

Honda likes to keep their lines as simple as possible. It's better for logistics, production speed, and reliability. The MDX, Ody, Pilot, S2K, CR-V, Element, RL, TSX, TL all come with a single engine option. Only the high volume vehicles like the Civic and Accord get engine options.

There have been exceptions like the RSX, but that one just uses another Civic engine. The last TL and CL Type S cars had an engine option, but those were high profit deals and it looks like even those have been taken away.

Relative to Honda's market share, the CR-V's sales volume is getting to the point where it may earn more options. But I doubt the option would be diesel. More likely the LX model will soldier on with the 160 hp 2.4, while the EX (or SE) gets a more potent version. The diesel would be too small a percentage to make it worth the effort.

ateixeira · March 2004

If gas prices jump, they could get the diesel here pretty quick, more quickly than any hybrid. My guess is they can't meet demand for Europe, so US sales seem very unlikely.

-juice

kizhe · March 2004

"In new England: reg gas is 1.78/gal, diesel 1.75/gal ...".
Interesting, anybody is curious why the price of gas and diesel is the same NOW? For me it's... like selling whiskey and wine at the same price (per volume). Does not make sense.
It might only justified if they add a hefty tax on both (per volume), or... we do NOT have "free market" here .

stevedebi · March 2004

I suspect that there are fewer refineries for Diesel, even though it is cheaper to produce. Thus the higher price is not due to collusion, but rather supply.

explorerx4 · March 2004

i seem to remember that diesel was cheaper until gas prices took a jump a couple of years ago, and vw started selling all those diesel jetta's.

stevedebi · March 2004

if those weasels at the oil companies upped the price when automobile diesels came into vogue.

Of course, it could be that with the introduction of automobile diesels, demand increased while production did not increase, which is the classic cause of a price increase.

sabrina9 · March 2004

I saw in today's paper that gas prices in California have hit 2.50. They should a picture of a station.

Isn't the gas actually closer to you than to those of us in the East????

theracoon · March 2004

California uses a "cleaner" blend of gasoline than other states, so there's a smaller number of refineries producing it, which means higher fuel prices due to less competition.

ateixeira · March 2004

Just over $2 (for premium) in Potomac, MD. MD and DC have high gas taxes, VA has lower so close by you can find cheaper gas by crossing the state line.

It's trending upward, though, and summer isn't here yet. Yikes!

-juice

robr2 · March 2004

I just drove up and down the east coast from Boston to Florida last week. I paid about the same price in Jessup, MD and Petersburg, VA (about $1.66). True in Jessup it was about 5 miles off of MD295 and in Petersburg it was right off of I-295.

By far the highest price was in Ormond Beach, FL - $1.77 for 87 octane. I presume because it was trailer uhmmm bike week the prices spiked a bit.

Here in MA, we use the same gas as CA I believe - it's about $1.71 for 87 and add $0.10 per grade jump.

icvci · March 2004

I don't think they have different refineries for diesel. It's just a less refined version of crude. It's one of the first products out of a still. If they're making regular gas, diesel is a byproduct of that process.

http://www.chevron.com/learning_center/refinery/

stevedebi · March 2004

You have to read the entire article. The initial process results in several grades of fuel, but then they "crack" the lower grades into gasoline and aviation fuel. So diesel isn't a "byproduct", it is consumed to create higher value gas products.

To make diesel is therefore cheaper, but demand wise, if they don't make more, and then introduce more diesels, the demand and price will rise.

varmint · March 2004

"Wouldn't surprise me a bit if those weasels at the oil companies upped the price..."

Hey now! Don't be giving us weasels a bad name.

I'm paying about $1.68 for gas here in southern MA. I expect the price will get up around $2 this summer. That might help me convince Mrs. Varmint to trade the TL in for a hybrid Accord when they become available.

icvci · March 2004

The lightest fractions, including gasoline and liquid petroleum gas (LPG), vaporize and rise to the top of the tower, where they condense back to liquids. Medium weight liquids, including kerosene and diesel oil distillates, stay in the middle.

So the diesel oil is, in fact, a different weight and a byproduct of making gasoline. No?

sabrina9 · March 2004

Pretty soon it might be cheaper for you guys in Ca to dig your own well in your backyard. Isn't it everywhere out there????

stevedebi · March 2004

Well, there used to be oil wells all over LA, particularly near the harbor. Most are predicting $3 per gallon here this summer. Doggone "special blends" of gasoline!

BTW, I saw that the NHTSB is being sued for not publicizing recalls to all owners. It appears they have been letting the car companies notify only certain regions insted of all owners.

2001 - 2006 Honda CR-Vs

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