Yeah, I saw that. It is a very intersting case. Apparently, they allow car companies to only notify certain owners in places where the problem occurs - for instance, if a problem only manifests itself in cold weather (or is salt related) might only mean they notify owners in cold areas. The problem, according to the suit, is that if a person in Arizona moves to NE or sells the car and it ends up in NE, the new owner would never know. This could be a problem if it is safety related. I hope the plaintiffs prevail. I think it is bad policy and lets the carmakers off the hook.
I have a 2003 CRV EX and just yesterday the SRS indicator light came on. Manual says it is related to the air bags either the main bags or the side bags. Anybody else have this problem?
Are you sure it wasn't just the light telling you the passenger bag was off? If you put something on the seat or if the passenger leans forward, that can happen.
Johnnyrf - Has it stayed on, or did it just come on for a short time?
The side airbags have "occupant positioning detector" sensors built into the passenger seat. If the passenger is too small (a small child) or if they lean into the path of the airbag, the system will disable the side airbag. This prevents the explosive discharge of the airbag from harming the passenger.
Anyway. If you place something like a briefcase, or even your lunch on the seat, it can trick the system into thinking there's a small person in the seat. Thus the light.
Keep an eye on it. If the light persists, take it to the dealer.
This isn't CR-V specific. Nor is it something we haven't seen before. But it is a good overview of Honda's plans for adding to the safety of their vehicles. (Sorry Sabrina, it doesn't appear they are addressing fires just yet.)
By telling the stupid mechanics to make darn sure the gasket comes off with the filter. And maybe making sure the plant in Swindon doesn't tighten them so tight.
You know, I have often wished that the Honda folks monitored this forum, like the Subaru folks monitor theirs. But then Honda is a bit larger company, and maybe that kind of service gets lost as a company gets bigger...
I haven't heard from him in a very long time, but the engineer responsible for designing fixes to the CR-V used to lurk here and on other CR-V related sites. He "decloaked" a few years back and even attended a CR-V rally in CA.
Actually, the problem started yesterday after the following activity: Pulled up to drop off a kid, left the car running, both the driver and passenger got in and out of the vehicle a few times while car was running. Noticed light steady on after this activity. Started car this morning and light is still on. Maybe the car needs a few cycles to reset? I have a service appt. set up for this Thursday if the problem persists.
Actually, the problem started yesterday after the following activity: Pulled up to drop off a kid, left the car running, both the driver and passenger got in and out of the vehicle a few times while car was running. Noticed light steady on after this activity. Started car this morning and light is still on. Maybe the car needs a few cycles to reset? I have a service appt. set up for this Thursday if the problem persists.
Maybe after he decloaked the bean counters found him and took him hostage. ;-)
When the new Forester was launched our rep strangely disappeared for a couple of months, we say she was locked in The Dungeon for asking for too many improvements. She surfaced later and said she'd had neck surgery but I won't believe it until I see X-rays! )
I don't know if any of you have seen the actual 9 page letter that NHTSA sent to Honda concerning the fires. It asks for LOTS of info. I can direct you to it if you haven't seen it. Believe the response to that letter will tell us what Honda has been up to with regard to the fires, inlcuding whether they have been telling their dealers anything...I cannot wait.
It is an eight ot 9 page pdf file, so I am not sure how to cut and paste. It is online or I can email it to you. Go to
NHTSA.gov "search Bulletin database" "defect investigations" type in "PE04018"
at that point you will come to a summary of the case - hit "document search" Then click the first document (there are two). It will be obvious as you go through. If there is a problem, email me and I will email the document. I was surpised at how much info they asked for. Certainly cost them more than the 2k I asked for - plus if the numbers are high opens them up further. But that was their decision.
FWIW, Sabrina, either Honda or the dealer will eventually have to pick up the tab and pay back your insurance co. I'm betting you'll win this, big time.
Seems like Honda could redesign the oil filter so that the gasket was fixed to it somehow. But they'd have to recall a whole bunch of 2.4l engines to do that.
More likely the dealer will eat the loss for not having been thorough with the service. I'm sure that's what Honda would prefer.
Thanks for the link. It is much easier your way. Isn't that a great letter? (I have already framed it). Frankly, I (we) would not have gotten even this far if it weren't for this message board and others seeing it and filing.... April 25 I will be on the line to NHTSA (deadline is April 24) to see what the response is....which of course I will report here
All along all I wanted was for Honda to figure out who should pay and deal with that themselves - behind the scenes. As we said a million messages ago, Honda could have paid and went after the dealer if that was appropriate. All I know is I should not have had to pay.
Seems to me you insurance company should have been more diligent on your behalf. I'd be mad at them more than Honda. How many thousands of dollars will you pay them over the lifetime of your vehicle? I'm not saying Honda shouldn't have done anything, it would have been nice if they would have. But, in today's age of class action suits and over-the-top settlements, I, quite frankly, don't blame them for their silence.
I'm not saying the insurance company was at fault. But, they should be the ones pursuing the case for her. She pays them to protect her interests when it comes to her automobile. IMO
The insurance company sent Honda a demand letter dated 3 or four weeks ago for 20K+. Honda had not responded as of early last week, which would have been at the deadline. I was planning to call the ins co friday.
I am going after the difference between what the ins company paid me and the price to replace the vehicle. I am doing all this for only 2K and peace of mind. It became more than about the money when I found out it happpened to other people. Although I am feeding the ins co everything I have, if they drop the ball it is not my concern. My case is related but on a separate track. Honda, in order to be let off the hook has to say SOMETHING. Silence is not typically a good defense (are you listening Ms. Stewart?)
I pick up my new 2004 CRV on Friday. It has a factory trailer hitch (1 1/4 inch receiver)installed and I would like to purchase a hitch-mounted bike rack. I've researched the Thule and Yakima sites, but would like to get some opinions as to the best rack from people who actually use them.
How about it bikers, let's hear your opinions and what you like best.
You can also buy a hitch-mounted basket (looks like a platform with a small guard rail around the outside edge). These are designed for toting stuff like coolers, boxes, sand bags, etc. I have one and use it to cart luggage, camping gear, and ski gear when the inside of my 'V is taken up by extra passengers or my two dogs.
Anyway... These hitch baskets have an accessory attachment that allows you to turn it into a bike stand. If all you need is a bike rack, then this would be overkill. But if you might want to the flexibility of both a bike rack and extra utility, it may be worth investigating.
I had a Thule with the small receiver on my last car (Outback) and it worked great. I've had 4 bikes on it (2 adult, 2 kids) no problem. It had a tendency of flexing and moving probably due to the smaller receiver vs. the larger one. I believe that is inherent with the hitch racks. On my CRV I have had the Thule roof rack system installed along with a cargo carrier. This is much more cost effective than the Honda equivalent. I had considered putting a hitch on along with a small trailer for bikes and/or cargo, but opted not to. Not sure how I am going to transport bikes with the CRV. I am not a big fan of hoisting the bikes up above the roof...
Just got a call from the service dept. at Honda. My 2003 CRV has a bad SRS sensor and a bad control unit and both need to be replaced according to the diagnostics. Parts take 3 days to get. Repair to be done next week.
Man, you have a tough crowd here...first you were at fault, then the dealership service department was at fault, now its the insurance company's fault...it is however never HONDA's fault for designing an oil filter that could so easily be installed wrong. Come on, if the filter is the culprit, they need to redesign the filter, send a note to all customers to stop by and get free oil/filter change to rectify the problem. At the very least, redeisgn the filter and get the old ones off the shelves. It will cost them up front but it is the right thing to do. What will the cost be when someone is killed?
I agree. In this case Honda is at fault, given the circumstances. If the fires were completely random, maybe a different story but we know they were not. If I can figure a pattern on my own without aid of any inside information, I suspect Honda could have. Unless it is some new piece of untested fancy equipment, under normal circumstances this is not rocket science - are you telling me engineers could not design (or spec) a filter that wouldn't leave a gasket behind?. I think the extra 15 cents would have been worth it.
Or, AT LEAST when they first got an indicaton that something was wrong, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT and don't fluff it off.
icvci: a Honda supplier does, but Honda is still responsible for their products. Don't you think? Only they can pressure their supplier to make a change.
Some things to keep in mind with any hitch - 1500 lbs capacity usually means a max tongue weight of 150 lbs. So weight your bikes, to get an idea, plus the weight of that platform and bike adapator, or whatever set up you end up with.
I have a 2 bike carrier but would prefer a 3 bike one, something to think about. Also make sure it tilts out of the way so you can open the hatch.
On 2nd thought, with Honda's swing gate that won't help. You can open the window, at least.
Give me a little credit, will ya....It is not about the money (in this case). If it was I'd be suing for a lot more.... It is about fairness and who has the final control over whatever the problem was. Honda's name is on the warranty and that was part of the purchase cost. If they have a reason why this should not be a claim under the warranty, I WAS ready to listen (no longer). It's been six months - they have not given me ONE shred of paper. Nothing, nada. I said it before, I am so glad they did not pay me. It is a small price to see that NHTSA letter go out.
I posted an article where Honda had changed the oil filters used on all of these engines. Anyone know why?
And how is it the filter's fault if mechanics aren't checking for a double gasket? On every oil filter I've ever changed there have been instructions in the box that say to clean the area where the old filter was. The filter isn't failing, the mechanics are. It's not like the filters are blowing off causing a fire, they've been installed incorrectly. How is that a problem with the filter?
How about we make the people who are screwing up take responsibility? What's a TSB going to say? Hey mechanics, do your job right and check for a double gasket?
I'm serious, too. Quite often TSBs will be for something as simple as reminding techs of a certain torque specification. Even to correct a grammatical error in a manual.
Note these come after a dealer oil change, not after a visit to Jiffy Lube. Could Honda's own techs be less well trained?
Sorry Sabrina, that remark was not directed at you (or anyone) in particular. But the fact remains that Honda Motor Corp still has not done anything wrong (other than poor customer service). At least nothing has been proven or even shown to be suspicious.
Has Honda told the dealer mechanics not to remove O rings? Doubt it.
Have they designed an O ring that sticks more than any other? On this I can assure you. It happens with plenty of other cars.
Does any other manufacturer have a filter that removes the O ring with it? Why have we singled out Honda?
I mean, why is the word "warranty" being thrown around? Does the Honda Motor Corporation warranty the work of the dealer mechanics, or is that handled by the dealer? IS there any warranty on dealer work, or are claims handled by the dealer's insurance company?
Lots of fingers being pointed with not many questions answered.
Instead of assigning blame and covering your bum, take a proactive approach to stop a potentially serious problem with SIMPLE steps Honda can take, namely the two mentoined in my previous post.
I set up laptops for people that travel overseas. If I see a pattern of problems you can bet I take corrective measures, be it installing updated software, upgrade hardware, contact ISPs, or re-training my users.
If I acted like Honda I'd blame my ISP, then the hardware vendor, then the software supplier, and claim ignorance of the pattern of problems that are right in front of me.
Oh, and then blame my own users, or just ignore people like Sabrina.
While your method is honorable, your company won't be in business long. The lawyers will eat you alive. From a business stand point, the best thing Honda can do is keep quite until all of the cards have been played and they know where they stand.
I'm certainly not saying that it's right but, very few companies jump up and admit they've got a problem that can cause serious problems. Some don't even stand up after it's killed people. How many people died in Explorer roll-overs before Ford and Firestone did anything?
And, I'll bet Honda has issued an informal memo to their dealerships warning of using improper oil change techniques. They don't have to make it public that some of their oil change guys are completely incompetent.
How do you know they didn't? We haven't heard of any new fires in months. They don't have to tell John Q. Public.
Yes Ford went after the supplier. And Firestone paid dearly for what many experts attribute to improper loading and inflation by the drivers. Honda has to keep quiet until they know what they're up against.
I've got friends that work for Ford who swear there was a front end suspension problem too.
Anyone who changes oil on ANY car has to be careful to make sure the old gasket didn't stick to the mounting block. If this happens, there will more than likely be a big time oil leak.
Oil leaks can cause fires.
This isn't a CRV "problem". It's a matter of simply being careful.
Alright, Varmint. No problem. The last time I went to the dealer, didn't I see a bunch of diplomas on the wall that said so and so was "Honda Factory Trained" or some such thing. Isn't that why I spent more to have my filter changed there. Admittedly, the last person to touch the filter was the dealer, but if Honda changed the filters or changed the way they were put on the vehicles and did not issue a memo or retrain people, that is Honda's problem. Maybe they did not think the change was significant. If nothing changed, why all of a sudden did these things start happening. And if nothing chaged again, why did they stop? I too have wondered why they stopped
NHTSA, in their earlier investigation, clearly felt something was up. They would not have considered gaskets sticking to blocks a huge problem if it was a common occurence.
Frankly, I'd rather not see anymore fires, even if it hurts my case. I'm still freaked. Everytime I smell something funny, I jump out of the car - no kidding
Extended warranties: Sorry I missed the live chat last September. What was the consensus? I have an 04 LX, and got the 5yr/100K warranty for $950. If I act within 30 days, I can cancel it.
6 CD changer: You can add the changer to an LX, and apparently it's plug and play. BUT the LX radio faceplate is different. The EX faceplate has 6 buttons to select the disks. If you add a changer to an LX, do the station buttons magically become the disc-select buttons when CD is selected?
The installation instructions don't address this. Has anyone added a changer to an LX?
Let's face it. An auto manufacturer has to take extra care in designing it's vehicles. Where is the fuel pump located? Usually inside the fuel tank. Where is the fuel filter located? Usually along the frame under the driver's side door, far far away from any heat source. Why are these designed like this? So that in the UNLIKELY event of a failure, either in one of these parts, or someone making a simple mistake replacing them, we don't have a fire. Humans are doing the maintenance. Humans make mistakes. Even the very best mechanics will. As much as I respect (and greatly appreciate) folks like Auburn here, think it's possible he's made maybe one minor mistake doing auto work in his life? . I've also seen many skilled experienced carpenters that don't have all their fingers because they made one minor mistake with a power saw. . I myself have done hundreds of oil changes, but I did mess up ONE, resulting in a double gasket on my Accord and I thank God that the oil filter on the Accord is not near the manifold like my CRV. . Sorry folks, but IMHO, both Honda and the dealer are at fault. The dealer is liable because it's mechanic didn't check for a double gasket. Honda is liable for putting the oil filter so close to a dangerous heat source (the manifold). And like Varmint eluded to, "the one with the deepest pockets gets sued". . Good luck to you Sabrina, and anyone else who had one of these fires. Stick to your guns, you're doing the right thing.
Comments
The side airbags have "occupant positioning detector" sensors built into the passenger seat. If the passenger is too small (a small child) or if they lean into the path of the airbag, the system will disable the side airbag. This prevents the explosive discharge of the airbag from harming the passenger.
Anyway. If you place something like a briefcase, or even your lunch on the seat, it can trick the system into thinking there's a small person in the seat. Thus the light.
Keep an eye on it. If the light persists, take it to the dealer.
http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/news/la-fi-safety14m- ar14,0,6551638.story?coll=la-classifieds-autos-news
We just don't know what they are up to...
I guess I should have written, "...it doesn't appear they are publicly addressing fires just yet."
You know, I have often wished that the Honda folks monitored this forum, like the Subaru folks monitor theirs. But then Honda is a bit larger company, and maybe that kind of service gets lost as a company gets bigger...
Actually, the problem started yesterday after the following activity:
Pulled up to drop off a kid, left the car running, both the driver and passenger got in and out of the vehicle a few times while car was running. Noticed light steady on after this activity.
Started car this morning and light is still on. Maybe the car needs a few cycles to reset? I have a service appt. set up for this Thursday if the problem persists.
Actually, the problem started yesterday after the following activity:
Pulled up to drop off a kid, left the car running, both the driver and passenger got in and out of the vehicle a few times while car was running. Noticed light steady on after this activity.
Started car this morning and light is still on. Maybe the car needs a few cycles to reset? I have a service appt. set up for this Thursday if the problem persists.
When the new Forester was launched our rep strangely disappeared for a couple of months, we say she was locked in The Dungeon for asking for too many improvements. She surfaced later and said she'd had neck surgery but I won't believe it until I see X-rays!
-juice
I don't know if any of you have seen the actual 9 page letter that NHTSA sent to Honda concerning the fires. It asks for LOTS of info. I can direct you to it if you haven't seen it. Believe the response to that letter will tell us what Honda has been up to with regard to the fires, inlcuding whether they have been telling their dealers anything...I cannot wait.
What are my options and How much$$
kyfdx
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
NHTSA.gov
"search Bulletin database"
"defect investigations"
type in "PE04018"
at that point you will come to a summary of the case - hit "document search" Then click the first document (there are two). It will be obvious as you go through. If there is a problem, email me and I will email the document. I was surpised at how much info they asked for. Certainly cost them more than the 2k I asked for - plus if the numbers are high opens them up further. But that was their decision.
FWIW, Sabrina, either Honda or the dealer will eventually have to pick up the tab and pay back your insurance co. I'm betting you'll win this, big time.
Seems like Honda could redesign the oil filter so that the gasket was fixed to it somehow. But they'd have to recall a whole bunch of 2.4l engines to do that.
More likely the dealer will eat the loss for not having been thorough with the service. I'm sure that's what Honda would prefer.
-juice
Isn't that a great letter? (I have already framed it). Frankly, I (we) would not have gotten even this far if it weren't for this message board and others seeing it and filing.... April 25 I will be on the line to NHTSA (deadline is April 24) to see what the response is....which of course I will report here
All along all I wanted was for Honda to figure out who should pay and deal with that themselves - behind the scenes. As we said a million messages ago, Honda could have paid and went after the dealer if that was appropriate. All I know is I should not have had to pay.
Thanks for keeping us up to date.
-juice
I'm not saying the insurance company was at fault. But, they should be the ones pursuing the case for her. She pays them to protect her interests when it comes to her automobile. IMO
I am going after the difference between what the ins company paid me and the price to replace the vehicle. I am doing all this for only 2K and peace of mind. It became more than about the money when I found out it happpened to other people. Although I am feeding the ins co everything I have, if they drop the ball it is not my concern. My case is related but on a separate track. Honda, in order to be let off the hook has to say SOMETHING. Silence is not typically a good defense (are you listening Ms. Stewart?)
How about it bikers, let's hear your opinions and what you like best.
You can also buy a hitch-mounted basket (looks like a platform with a small guard rail around the outside edge). These are designed for toting stuff like coolers, boxes, sand bags, etc. I have one and use it to cart luggage, camping gear, and ski gear when the inside of my 'V is taken up by extra passengers or my two dogs.
Anyway... These hitch baskets have an accessory attachment that allows you to turn it into a bike stand. If all you need is a bike rack, then this would be overkill. But if you might want to the flexibility of both a bike rack and extra utility, it may be worth investigating.
On my CRV I have had the Thule roof rack system installed along with a cargo carrier. This is much more cost effective than the Honda equivalent.
I had considered putting a hitch on along with a small trailer for bikes and/or cargo, but opted not to. Not sure how I am going to transport bikes with the CRV. I am not a big fan of hoisting the bikes up above the roof...
Or, AT LEAST when they first got an indicaton that something was wrong, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT and don't fluff it off.
Some things to keep in mind with any hitch - 1500 lbs capacity usually means a max tongue weight of 150 lbs. So weight your bikes, to get an idea, plus the weight of that platform and bike adapator, or whatever set up you end up with.
I have a 2 bike carrier but would prefer a 3 bike one, something to think about. Also make sure it tilts out of the way so you can open the hatch.
On 2nd thought, with Honda's swing gate that won't help. You can open the window, at least.
-juice
And how is it the filter's fault if mechanics aren't checking for a double gasket? On every oil filter I've ever changed there have been instructions in the box that say to clean the area where the old filter was. The filter isn't failing, the mechanics are. It's not like the filters are blowing off causing a fire, they've been installed incorrectly. How is that a problem with the filter?
How about we make the people who are screwing up take responsibility? What's a TSB going to say? Hey mechanics, do your job right and check for a double gasket?
I'm serious, too. Quite often TSBs will be for something as simple as reminding techs of a certain torque specification. Even to correct a grammatical error in a manual.
Note these come after a dealer oil change, not after a visit to Jiffy Lube. Could Honda's own techs be less well trained?
-juice
Has Honda told the dealer mechanics not to remove O rings? Doubt it.
Have they designed an O ring that sticks more than any other? On this I can assure you. It happens with plenty of other cars.
Does any other manufacturer have a filter that removes the O ring with it? Why have we singled out Honda?
I mean, why is the word "warranty" being thrown around? Does the Honda Motor Corporation warranty the work of the dealer mechanics, or is that handled by the dealer? IS there any warranty on dealer work, or are claims handled by the dealer's insurance company?
Lots of fingers being pointed with not many questions answered.
I wanna be the guy hired to watch over your shoulder while you work.
7 is not a large number, but when you're talking about engine fires even just one is serious.
Retrain dealers *and* put pressure on the supplier to improve the parts. They could do this without even notifying consumers, which would be risky.
-juice
Instead of assigning blame and covering your bum, take a proactive approach to stop a potentially serious problem with SIMPLE steps Honda can take, namely the two mentoined in my previous post.
I set up laptops for people that travel overseas. If I see a pattern of problems you can bet I take corrective measures, be it installing updated software, upgrade hardware, contact ISPs, or re-training my users.
If I acted like Honda I'd blame my ISP, then the hardware vendor, then the software supplier, and claim ignorance of the pattern of problems that are right in front of me.
Oh, and then blame my own users, or just ignore people like Sabrina.
-juice
I'm certainly not saying that it's right but, very few companies jump up and admit they've got a problem that can cause serious problems. Some don't even stand up after it's killed people. How many people died in Explorer roll-overs before Ford and Firestone did anything?
And, I'll bet Honda has issued an informal memo to their dealerships warning of using improper oil change techniques. They don't have to make it public that some of their oil change guys are completely incompetent.
Ford went after their supplier in that case, actually.
-juice
Yes Ford went after the supplier. And Firestone paid dearly for what many experts attribute to improper loading and inflation by the drivers. Honda has to keep quiet until they know what they're up against.
I've got friends that work for Ford who swear there was a front end suspension problem too.
Oil leaks can cause fires.
This isn't a CRV "problem". It's a matter of simply being careful.
Heck, I even did this once years ago on my Chevy!
The last time I went to the dealer, didn't I see a bunch of diplomas on the wall that said so and so was "Honda Factory Trained" or some such thing. Isn't that why I spent more to have my filter changed there. Admittedly, the last person to touch the filter was the dealer, but if Honda changed the filters or changed the way they were put on the vehicles and did not issue a memo or retrain people, that is Honda's problem. Maybe they did not think the change was significant. If nothing changed, why all of a sudden did these things start happening. And if nothing chaged again, why did they stop? I too have wondered why they stopped
NHTSA, in their earlier investigation, clearly felt something was up. They would not have considered gaskets sticking to blocks a huge problem if it was a common occurence.
Frankly, I'd rather not see anymore fires, even if it hurts my case. I'm still freaked. Everytime I smell something funny, I jump out of the car - no kidding
This may drag on for years...
-juice
6 CD changer: You can add the changer to an LX, and apparently it's plug and play. BUT the LX radio faceplate is different. The EX faceplate has 6 buttons to select the disks. If you add a changer to an LX, do the station buttons magically become the disc-select buttons when CD is selected?
The installation instructions don't address this. Has anyone added a changer to an LX?
.
I've also seen many skilled experienced carpenters that don't have all their fingers because they made one minor mistake with a power saw.
.
I myself have done hundreds of oil changes, but I did mess up ONE, resulting in a double gasket on my Accord and I thank God that the oil filter on the Accord is not near the manifold like my CRV.
.
Sorry folks, but IMHO, both Honda and the dealer are at fault. The dealer is liable because it's mechanic didn't check for a double gasket. Honda is liable for putting the oil filter so close to a dangerous heat source (the manifold). And like Varmint eluded to, "the one with the deepest pockets gets sued".
.
Good luck to you Sabrina, and anyone else who had one of these fires. Stick to your guns, you're doing the right thing.