I'm sure that's true. They test one sample, I think they even mention that. They also mention 3 different types of FRAM filters (see the text for details).
. Where is the fuel filter located? Usually along the frame under the driver's side door, far far away from any heat source. Why are these designed like this? So that in the UNLIKELY event of a failure, either in one of these parts, or someone making a simple mistake replacing them, we don't have a fire.
Comon, the safety of a vehicle relies on competent people servicing it. A fuel injector could be screwed up just as easily as a fuel filter and the results would be disastrous. Ultimately hundreds of thousands of CR-Vs are on the road and will remain there without fires. Why? Because there isn't a design flaw, there is a mechanic competency problem.
Because there isn't a design flaw, there is a mechanic competency problem.
My thoughts, exactly. But we're talking about a catastrophic failure that puts the driver and passengers at risk. Honda has to take some responsiblity along with the dealer.
re: icvci - Please remember one point in my post is that people (even the best mechanics) do make mistakes. But I respect your opinion, we can agree to disagree.
re: theracoon - Thank you. My thoughts exactly, which is why I picked the fuel filter placement as an example.
But we're talking about a catastrophic failure that puts the driver and passengers at risk. Honda has to take some responsiblity along with the dealer.
Responsibility for what? It's not a failure. It's a human induced condition. Nothing on the vehicle is failing, it's all working as designed.
On Sears Hairdryer: Do not use while sleeping.
On a bar of Dial soap: Directions: Use like other soap.
On some Swann frozen dinners: Serving suggestion: Defrost.
On a hotel provided shower cap in a box: Fits one head.
On Tesco's Tiramisu dessert: (printed on bottom of box) Do not turn upside down.
On Marks & Spencer Bread Pudding: Product will be hot after heating.
On packaging for a Rowenta iron: Do not iron clothes on body.
On Boot's Children's cough medicine: Do not drive ar or operate machinery.
On Nytol sleep aid: Warning: may cause drowsiness.
On Sainsbury's peanuts: Warning: contains nuts.
On an American Airlines packet of nuts: Instructions: open packet, eat nuts.
On a Swedish chainsaw: Do not attempt to stop chain with your hands or genitals.
On a child's Superman costume: Wearing of this garment does not enable you to fly.
I guess blaming vehicle design for a service tech's error is par for the course.
mikefm85 Yes, people do make mistakes and many of them could kill a person. Who's fault will it be? Must EVERYTHING be idiot proof or should we draw a line somewhere?
Look at the huge air bag and rollover stickers they put on the inside of cars, though. Sabrina's suggestion seems to follow along those lines.
IMO Honda can be pro-active without necessarily taking blame for the fires. Then again in this litigous society people may use that against them. Sad state of affairs.
re:icvci How long did it take you to come up with all those warnings? You really need to get a life...just kidding. You equate "idiot proof" to competent mechanics who may make a mistake. If enough competent mechanics make the same mistake, then even you would agree (I think) that Honda is at fault. That's the critical point lawyers will be arguing. We could debate this until the cows come home but it would be such a waste of bandwidth and my valuable time. So let's end this and agree to disagree. . re:ateixeira <Honda can be pro-active without necessarily taking blame for the fires. Then again in this litigous society people may use that against them. Sad state of affairs> My thoughts exactly!!!!
Upon clicking the UNLOCK button on Key Fob a little speaker on fob states:
Warning: Car designed unlike other vehicles. Oil filter is in a postion to create catastrophic condition if not replaced 100% correctly with no margin for human error under any condition. Honda Company carries no responsibilty for said catastaphic loss.
Upon placing key in igntion, driver hears this through speakers: Warning: Car designed unlike other vehicles. Oil filter is in a postion to create catastrophic condition if not replaced 100% correctly with no margin for human error under any condition. Since humans are never 100% error free, this Honda dealership carries no responsibilty for said catastaphic loss.
Finally if fire is detected the driver here's the following pre-recorded message: Fire Please exit the vehicle. As you leave please be aware that this car is designed unlike other vehicles. The oil filter is in a postion to create catastrophic condition if not replaced 100% correctly with no margin for human error under any condition. Honda Corp and your Honda dealership will not be held responsible for the catastrophic condition you are now experiencing. You insurance company carries no responsibilty for this catastaphic loss on or above the current Blue Book value of this vehicle less a variety of deductions. Premiums will of course be raised should a claim be filed. Now.... run like wind!
PS: If that Sears hair dryer ever found a way to come on by itself and start blowing heated air on my unprotected sleeping skin, you bet I'd sue.
Hello everyone. The wife and I just agreed to purchase an 03' AWD EX CRV from a private owner. It has 14K on it with new Michelins, 6 yr/100k transferable($75)extended powertrain warranty. He also had added an auto dimming mirror. Agreed price was $18,750. I thought it was a very good deal.
At first I was leary why he would sell a one year old vehicle but it was his wife's and she decided she wanted an Odessey instead. (purhased that 2 weeks ago) He owned the CRV free and clear and lived in a very nice area. I figured that was the reason he was flexible on the price. In my lengthy discussions with him I realized he was a "car" guy. Kept a 00' Trans Am underwraps just to work on. Firm believer in 3k oil changes. Oh yeah, it's blue with black interior. Looks new in and out.
Price sounds fair. Did he say why it needed new tires after only 14K miles? Also, what kind of extended powertrain warranty? Is it a Hondacare warranty? That would cost way more than $75, or was that meant to be $750?
"PLEASE CHECK TO MAKE SURE GASKET HAS BEEN REMOVED WITH FILTER. MAY CAUSE FIRE."
Checking to ensure the old gasket and any debris is removed from the mounting flange is standard operating procedure when replacing any oil filter.
"Warning: Car designed unlike other vehicles. Oil filter is in a postion to create catastrophic condition if not replaced 100% correctly with no margin for human error under any condition. Honda Company carries no responsibilty for said catastaphic loss."
Tell me which manufacturer allows for anything less than a 100% correct replacement of any part?
Aren't most warnings jusr reminders anyways...Reminders not to do something that we were probably taught not to do at one time.
Electrical lights have a Warning to Shut off electricity before installing. I presume electricians were taught that. But in this and the filter's case it would help DIY'er if you were never taught SOPS and would remind the others who weretaught SOPS.
I know this is your cause at the moment. I understand the frustration of just having been forced to pay money out of pocket due to a car accident where I was not at fault. It's not fun.
Since you agree it is SOP to check the flange, then you agree it's the fault of the dealer/tech? If Honda were to print the words would you let them off the hook or would you then go chasing the supposed design flaw angle that someone else came up with?
I'm guessing over a million oil/filter changes have been done on the current gen CRV. The number of fires reported caused by this alleged issue numbers under 10. Not to dimish the fires, but it's a miniscule percentage. IMHO, it's a technician issue not a design issue.
mikefm58 The beauty of the internet, if you know how to search, finding a list of stupid warings takes no more than a minute. Cut and paste, voila.
sabrina This is what is written on the side of EVERY Honda oil filter I've ever used. (In 4 languages.)
OIL GASKET SLIGHTLY CLEAN SEATING AREA SCREW UNTIL GASKET CONTACT TORQUE TO 10-14Nm (1.0-1.4kgm) OR 3/4 TURN WITH TOOL START ENGINE AND CHECK FOR LEAKS
My leak didn't happen for 6 days, so that one is covered. I can't say whether they cleaned the area or not, nor can I tell if the torque was correct. Bottom line is this...I asked Honda for an answer when this happened bvecause the dealer said it wasn't them (that's what the owners manual says to do). If Honda had said to me in the beginning "this is not our fault because our investigation has shown....and therefore we believe the dealer is at fault and we are letting the dealer know the results of our investigation" then matters would have been settled - no postings to Edmunds (and never found the others). This has obviously escalated because Honda refuses to do anything.
As for languages I guess I could check to see if the tech understands any of them...(LOL). 4 languages aren't many, assuming one is Japanese.
I've been changing my oil off and on since ~'73 and I never thought about looking for a stuck gasket on the block until a couple of years ago. Wasn't standard operating procedure with me - it's dark and oily under there!
Haven't been here for some time. I am still very glad I bought my CRV. I was having my oil changed this week when the service manager told me he had recently received information from HONDA suggesting that when a high pressure laser car wash is used...to have the air recirculation button on....that this action protects certain areas from getting water in it during the wash. He added that this was ony a problem with the newer laser washes. Just wanted to pass this on.
Interesting reading here, of late, on the continuing fiasco/situ with the filter O rings. Not identical but, fwiw, I've been changing oil filters on my Honda M'cycles for 17 yrs, (all of which use a mini version of the car filter With that rubber O ring). I have yet to find a displaced or sticking O ring on any the M'cycle filters when changed, and they generate some serious motor heat.
Yeah, the $75 was the transfer fee and he had changed the tires because he thought the OEM's were junk. Of course, then his wife decides she wants a mini van. Wife ain't happy nobody's happy :-).
I am coming up on the 5,000 mile mark and will be bringing my CRV into Honda for an oil change and a host of other problems. Re the oil change, is anyone discussing the fire issue with the service manager before they perform the change?. Are they aware of this or are they still playing bumb? I plan on asking to see the oil filter AND gasket.
<I've been changing oil filters on my Honda M'cycles for 17 yrs, (all of which use a mini version of the car filter With that rubber O ring). I have yet to find a displaced or sticking O ring on any the M'cycle filters when changed>
Same here, but one time on my Accord it did stay, and I didn't check it. I'm glad it was my Accord and not my CRV. Since it sticks so infrequently it is VERY easy to forget to check it. . I'd also like to clarify one thing. I feel the mechanic/dealer bears the majority of fault. It is is SOP to check for a double gasket and he didn't do it.
icvci: "How many people died in Explorer rollovers before Ford and Firestone did anything? ..." I bet, that was mostly the fault of the owners, who had under-inflated tires. When I walk on parking lots I see so many cars with under-inflated tires and owners don't give a damn. If you have an observant eye you ,probably, saw that too. These tires (for me) are like crying : "Please, pump me up, #&@&...!". Once on our parking lot I spotted Lexus 330 with right front tire nearly flat! Looks like owner drove like that during long period of time - that tire was worn on both sides. The next day I saw it again - same condition - nothing done. Then I wrote a note to the owner and stuck it under windshield wiper. Guess what, next day I passed by - no difference. I wonder, how many people like that all across America? I think a lot. So ... American lawyers will always have a job.
Geeesh, you know it is going to happen, but when the vehicle is only a few wks old, you wish it were later rather than sooner. Snow storm that hit here on Friday morning, on the drive to work, there was a lot of snow/ice dropping from the trees. It sounded like it was a war zone hitting the vehicle, and my co-workers agreed once everyone was able to get into work. Unfortunately, some hit my windshield on my new V a little too hard, and cracked it. Guess I'm going to find out if PA has full windshield coverage with my insurance. Right in my line of sight too
"I can't tell by looking at a radial if it's under inflated or not. Unless it's flat :-)..." I agree on that, but I was talking about the cases when YOU SEE (you do not need manometer) that tire was under inflated, but not completely flat yet :-). That was the case with that LEXUS.
It's just one of our local papers. We've got the News and the Free Press. While they support the local industry, stories aren't limitied to the big 2.5.
This morning in the parking lot at the ski hill a Voyager with Goodyear Ultra Grips pulled in beside me. Ordinarily I wouldn't notice the tires on the car parked next to me (much less the brand), but today I did.
The rear tire looked a little soft, but maybe that was just the tire profile or maybe there was a rock under the tread (gravel parking lot). Or maybe it needed 15 pounds of pressure.
Sabrina - I think the PT Cruiser issue made the news because the case is far more advanced (more history) than what we have here with the CR-V. Truth is, the NHTSA has numerous cases that are currently open. Not all of them make the news.
With the PT, the vehicle had already been recalled once for a problem that might cause a fire. There's not much information, but I'm getting the impression that the NHTSA is deeper into this case than they are with the CR-V. Then there's the fact that people have been injured as a result of the PT fires. Not only does that make for good headlines, but it also suggests that the fires in the PT have been quick to go from smoke to flames.
I agree, Varmint. I think I will also make Automotive news aware. Now that the NHTSa imprint is on the investigation it gives it more credibility. Thanks
Well, I was planning on keeping the CRV forever, but circumstances have changed in our family.I purchased an 03 Jetta TDI (turbo diesel) and love it. I am getting 50 mpg on the highway and it handles great. Anyway, my wife had long ago taken over the CRV and I was left driving the Aerostar. I needed something more sporty with better mpg so I got the Jetta. The van is just sitting there and is used when the whole family needs it.( I have 3 daughters)I decided to give the van to my mother and we are going to sell the CRV and buy a Nissan Quest (new one)My CRV has 33k and is mint minus a few scratches and one parking lot kink. I used mobil one synthetic since she was a baby.It has side air bags but no keyless entry.How much do you think it's worth? Edmunds says around $14,700 private party?
Comments
http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters.html
Interestingly, most FRAM filters earn very poor scores. They called it "one of the worst out there".
However, they say nothing about the filter gasket.
-juice
The orange cheapie Fram filters sold at Wal Mart are built to satisfy a price point.
They will build whatever they are asked to.
-juice
Comon, the safety of a vehicle relies on competent people servicing it. A fuel injector could be screwed up just as easily as a fuel filter and the results would be disastrous. Ultimately hundreds of thousands of CR-Vs are on the road and will remain there without fires. Why? Because there isn't a design flaw, there is a mechanic competency problem.
My thoughts, exactly. But we're talking about a catastrophic failure that puts the driver and passengers at risk. Honda has to take some responsiblity along with the dealer.
re: theracoon - Thank you. My thoughts exactly, which is why I picked the fuel filter placement as an example.
But we're talking about a catastrophic failure that puts the driver and passengers at risk. Honda has to take some responsiblity along with the dealer.
Responsibility for what? It's not a failure. It's a human induced condition. Nothing on the vehicle is failing, it's all working as designed.
On Sears Hairdryer:
Do not use while sleeping.
On a bar of Dial soap:
Directions: Use like other soap.
On some Swann frozen dinners:
Serving suggestion: Defrost.
On a hotel provided shower cap in a box:
Fits one head.
On Tesco's Tiramisu dessert:
(printed on bottom of box) Do not turn upside down.
On Marks & Spencer Bread Pudding:
Product will be hot after heating.
On packaging for a Rowenta iron:
Do not iron clothes on body.
On Boot's Children's cough medicine:
Do not drive ar or operate machinery.
On Nytol sleep aid:
Warning: may cause drowsiness.
On Sainsbury's peanuts:
Warning: contains nuts.
On an American Airlines packet of nuts:
Instructions: open packet, eat nuts.
On a Swedish chainsaw:
Do not attempt to stop chain with your hands or genitals.
On a child's Superman costume:
Wearing of this garment does not enable you to fly.
I guess blaming vehicle design for a service tech's error is par for the course.
mikefm85
Yes, people do make mistakes and many of them could kill a person. Who's fault will it be? Must EVERYTHING be idiot proof or should we draw a line somewhere?
PLEASE CHECK TO MAKE SURE GASKET HAS BEEN REMOVED WITH FILTER. MAY CAUSE FIRE.
That would be a nice warning. Also, car makers and other do failure analysis studies all the time. Otherwise it would be impossible to build a car
Look at the huge air bag and rollover stickers they put on the inside of cars, though. Sabrina's suggestion seems to follow along those lines.
IMO Honda can be pro-active without necessarily taking blame for the fires. Then again in this litigous society people may use that against them. Sad state of affairs.
-juice
.
re:ateixeira
<Honda can be pro-active without necessarily taking blame for the fires. Then again in this litigous society people may use that against them. Sad state of affairs>
My thoughts exactly!!!!
Warning: Car designed unlike other vehicles. Oil filter is in a postion to create catastrophic condition if not replaced 100% correctly with no margin for human error under any condition. Honda Company carries no responsibilty for said catastaphic loss.
Upon placing key in igntion, driver hears this through speakers: Warning: Car designed unlike other vehicles. Oil filter is in a postion to create catastrophic condition if not replaced 100% correctly with no margin for human error under any condition. Since humans are never 100% error free, this Honda dealership carries no responsibilty for said catastaphic loss.
Finally if fire is detected the driver here's the following pre-recorded message: Fire Please exit the vehicle. As you leave please be aware that this car is designed unlike other vehicles. The oil filter is in a postion to create catastrophic condition if not replaced 100% correctly with no margin for human error under any condition. Honda Corp and your Honda dealership will not be held responsible for the catastrophic condition you are now experiencing. You insurance company carries no responsibilty for this catastaphic loss on or above the current Blue Book value of this vehicle less a variety of deductions. Premiums will of course be raised should a claim be filed. Now.... run like wind!
PS:
If that Sears hair dryer ever found a way to come on by itself and start blowing heated air on my unprotected sleeping skin, you bet I'd sue.
Perfect!!!! Exactly what I have been trying to say. Mind if I use that in front of the judge???
At first I was leary why he would sell a one year old vehicle but it was his wife's and she decided she wanted an Odessey instead. (purhased that 2 weeks ago) He owned the CRV free and clear and lived in a very nice area. I figured that was the reason he was flexible on the price. In my lengthy discussions with him I realized he was a "car" guy. Kept a 00' Trans Am underwraps just to work on. Firm believer in 3k oil changes. Oh yeah, it's blue with black interior. Looks new in and out.
regards,
kyfdx
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Checking to ensure the old gasket and any debris is removed from the mounting flange is standard operating procedure when replacing any oil filter.
"Warning: Car designed unlike other vehicles. Oil filter is in a postion to create catastrophic condition if not replaced 100% correctly with no margin for human error under any condition. Honda Company carries no responsibilty for said catastaphic loss."
Tell me which manufacturer allows for anything less than a 100% correct replacement of any part?
Probably because the OEM Bridgestone Dueler H/Ts aren't very good tires.
Is it a Hondacare warranty? That would cost way more than $75, or was that meant to be $750?
Maybe it's a $75 transfer fee?
Electrical lights have a Warning to Shut off electricity before installing. I presume electricians were taught that. But in this and the filter's case it would help DIY'er if you were never taught SOPS and would remind the others who weretaught SOPS.
Not any different than making sure the drain plug is tight.
Since you agree it is SOP to check the flange, then you agree it's the fault of the dealer/tech? If Honda were to print the words would you let them off the hook or would you then go chasing the supposed design flaw angle that someone else came up with?
I'm guessing over a million oil/filter changes have been done on the current gen CRV. The number of fires reported caused by this alleged issue numbers under 10. Not to dimish the fires, but it's a miniscule percentage. IMHO, it's a technician issue not a design issue.
The beauty of the internet, if you know how to search, finding a list of stupid warings takes no more than a minute. Cut and paste, voila.
sabrina
This is what is written on the side of EVERY Honda oil filter I've ever used. (In 4 languages.)
OIL GASKET SLIGHTLY
CLEAN SEATING AREA
SCREW UNTIL GASKET CONTACT
TORQUE TO 10-14Nm (1.0-1.4kgm)
OR 3/4 TURN WITH TOOL
START ENGINE AND CHECK FOR LEAKS
I'm sure Honda will use that in court.
Bottom line is this...I asked Honda for an answer when this happened bvecause the dealer said it wasn't them (that's what the owners manual says to do). If Honda had said to me in the beginning "this is not our fault because our investigation has shown....and therefore we believe the dealer is at fault and we are letting the dealer know the results of our investigation" then matters would have been settled - no postings to Edmunds (and never found the others). This has obviously escalated because Honda refuses to do anything.
As for languages I guess I could check to see if the tech understands any of them...(LOL). 4 languages aren't many, assuming one is Japanese.
Steve, Host
Steve, Host
Not identical but, fwiw, I've been changing oil filters on my Honda M'cycles for 17 yrs, (all of which use a mini version of the car filter With that rubber O ring). I have yet to find a displaced or sticking O ring on any the M'cycle filters when changed, and they generate some serious motor heat.
Strange situ; methinks incompetent "techs".
BR,md
and
Honda Odyssey: Prices Paid & Buying Experience
should have some recent comparison numbers.
Steve, Host
Thanks
Same here, but one time on my Accord it did stay, and I didn't check it. I'm glad it was my Accord and not my CRV. Since it sticks so infrequently it is VERY easy to forget to check it.
.
I'd also like to clarify one thing. I feel the mechanic/dealer bears the majority of fault. It is is SOP to check for a double gasket and he didn't do it.
I bet, that was mostly the fault of the owners, who had under-inflated tires. When I walk on parking lots I see so many cars with under-inflated tires and owners don't give a damn.
If you have an observant eye you ,probably, saw that too.
These tires (for me) are like crying : "Please, pump me up, #&@&...!".
Once on our parking lot I spotted Lexus 330 with right front tire nearly flat! Looks like owner drove like that during long period of time - that tire was worn on both sides. The next day I saw it again - same condition - nothing done. Then I wrote a note to the owner and stuck it under windshield wiper. Guess what, next day I passed by - no difference.
I wonder, how many people like that all across America? I think a lot. So ... American lawyers will always have a job.
Tire pressure monitoring systems should help motivate the folks who never look at their tires, hopefully.
Steve, Host
Sooner is better - the anxiety isn't sustained for so long and you just get over it! :-)
tidester, host
That dealer is in trouble. Honda's probably been quiet to avoid pointing the blame at them.
-juice
I agree on that, but I was talking about the cases when YOU SEE (you do not need manometer) that tire was under inflated, but not completely flat yet :-).
That was the case with that LEXUS.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=30&article- - - _id=7941
http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0403/22/autos-97446.htm
So far, our only lead with Sabrina's problem is the double oil gasket.
The rear tire looked a little soft, but maybe that was just the tire profile or maybe there was a rock under the tread (gravel parking lot). Or maybe it needed 15 pounds of pressure.
Now I'm eyeballing tires and it's all YOUR fault!
<g>
Steve, Host
When they published the article about Toyota's sludge problem, that was the beginning of the end of Toyota's resistance to cover that issue.
Here is that article, to get an idea of the type of background research they did:
http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=38302&a=a&b- t=sludge
Your case is very different, but still, I think they are the type of publication you want on your side.
-juice
With the PT, the vehicle had already been recalled once for a problem that might cause a fire. There's not much information, but I'm getting the impression that the NHTSA is deeper into this case than they are with the CR-V. Then there's the fact that people have been injured as a result of the PT fires. Not only does that make for good headlines, but it also suggests that the fires in the PT have been quick to go from smoke to flames.
-juice