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2008 Minivans
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And even if you do feel CR is biased, readers can at least read the reviews and test results and do their own ranking based on what's important to them.
I've always said CR is good for facts and figures, things that can't be subjective or spun i.e...0-60 times, MPG, braking, measured volumes and dimensions. When you get into "feelings" or "appearances", that when the bias comes into play. "Brake feel was better on vehicle A vs B".....I guess that would depend on what you're used to driving. I get out of my Company car - a Taurus, then drive my minivan, then jump in my old Corvair...they all feel different.
I think the problem is that a lot of car reviews base their final scores on how a car actually drives, more than style, or extra features. So while some folks like the stowNgo, swivelNgo, 2 video screens, etc, most car reviews put those sort of things secondary to the main components (driving, seating comfort, space, etc).
On the one hand that makes me think that the domestics should try to get back to the basics, but on the other hand it's the extras and innovations that make domestics stand out.
Do I find CR accurate when I haven't had a single issue with my minivan, friends and family with minivans, some for decades being repeat DCX buyers have no issues, then I look at all red circles?
I think you meant black circles...red circles mean good!
True...but what all of those black circles really indicates is that in comparison to vehicles with red circles, those with black circles will have more problems. So maybe 70% of the DCX will be without major problems while 80% of Odysseys trouble free, so the DCX owners you know are in the 70%. But that still doesn't change the comparison facts based on the CR data.
You'll always find with statistics cases that don't fit in. With gas prices they'll say that the average price per gallon jumped 3 cents over the past week and make a big deal about it, while the stations around where I live jump 20cents in one day!
And the data isn't evenly spread across the the US evenly, so while stats may show, for example, that 30% of the DCX will have mechanical problems, there won't necessarily be 3 out of the 10 folks you know driving DCX with problems. Your group could be 100% trouble-free. But there could be another group of 10 folks living in another state where 70% of their DCXs have problems.
The point is not to necessarily infer that statistics will match your specific situation because they're based on thousands of data points.
A reporter seeks to talk with owners and serious shoppers of any of the following 2008 models, and who are also parents:
2008 Dodge Caravan
2008 Toyota Sienna
2008 Honda Odyssey
2008 Mazda5
If you are interested in commenting on your experience, please reply to jfallon@edmunds.com no later than Thursday, November 15, 2007 and include your city and state of residence as well as the age of your child/ren.
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7 passenger Sienna- 2nd Row seat flips forward- definitely impossible with a carseat installed
Odyssey- I cant remember exactly, but I know it doesn't flip forward like the Sienna.
T&C- ???
If anyone has knowledge about these I would greatly appreciate it. It would save me another trip back to the dealerships dragging along my 6 month old and 4 year old.
With only 1 child car seat installed, I squeezed between the 2nd row seats in either the 02 T&C LX or 06 Sienna LE. Best to keep Ody or Sienna 2nd row seats separated to prevent children fighting.
I tried moving our right middle seat to middle position in our 06 Sienna but it was more difficult to squeeze past the seat on the right side than thru the middle.
Have you considered the 8 passenger Sienna where you could put child seats in left and middle seats of 2nd row and take out the right middle row seat for easy access to 3rd row seats? Slide the middle seat of 2nd row forward to separate children to reduce ability to fight. :shades:
So then I went Ody shopping. Honda has GREAT deals going on for the 2007's. I was pretty psyched about the Stow and Go 8th seat. But then I drove the Sienna and Ody back to back and fell in love with the Sienna. Much smoother ride and better acceleration. Also I loved the Silver Pine Mica on the Sienna.
T&C- Once I read the threads about its MPG I dropped it from the running.
I think I'm going to go with the 7 seat Sienna and push the middle row seats together. The kids are far enough apart in age that they don't fight. In fact the 4 year old is great at entertaining the 7 month old who is still rear facing.
You are right about the indentations. I had two car seats in our Murano for the past 2 years and after the last cleanup session (when we take them from the car for a complete detailing) two months ago, we misplaced the upper portion of the padding. The indentations seem to be going away but I wonder what happen if we hadn't noticed it sooner.
PS: Dried up milk is very difficult to remove from upholstery as some our furniture can attest.
We never really ate in the car. Nothing that could stain anyway.
If only the worst food-related mess was of the non-ingested kind :-)
Leather, when well cared for, also resists wear better than regular upholstery.
VW's have a perception of good quality but it is a very false perception.
Of all the products I represented Toyota was the best hands down ! formerdlr
Now, if we flip the seat back of the 2nd row pass seat, it makes a nice passage for a car seat to get into the 3rd row. The space is enough for an adult to pass, too. Typically, we get an adult and a child in car seat in both the 2nd and the 3rd row.
Regards, - M.S.
No dig at Chrysler intended or implied.
I've never heard complaints about DCX MPG, I get 20 mpg around town, and 25 mpg on the highway - exactly what EPA said I should. I have seen many complaints though on Honda mpg in their threads, people getting nowhere near what they expected.
The 2008 T&C, with the 6 spd tranny and 3.8 or 4.0 should do as well as any other minivan in MPG.
That same consumer report cited two VW models ranked at the BOTTOM of the list for quality/repairs.
I have nothing against any of the manufactures and make my comments based only on current data.
I am a automotive expert who testify's in federal and state courts so I keep very up to date on quality matters.
I admit I am a large Toyota fan , with many members of my family driving them for years------why ? Best quality in the world measured over the entire lineup.
"I admit I am a large Toyota fan , with many members of my family driving them for years------why ? Best quality in the world measured over the entire lineup. "
Nice statement, but how about some facts to back it up. How are you defining "quality." Where are you getting your data? How much better in quality is Toyota over VW for example? or Ford. For example, if I buy a Ford Taurus instead of a Toyota Camry, how much more in repairs can I expect to pay over the next 5 years of ownership, since the "quality" of Toyota is better than Ford?
Now that would be good information, versus just generally saying to buy Toyota versus VW because Toyota has better "quality." Maybe the VW owner will pay a few hundred more in repairs after 5 years of ownership of a VW, but if the better driving experience, ride, handling, etc are important to the buyer, then maybe it's worth a little more in repair costs to drive a vehicle with superior driving dynamics.
What generally is not so good w/ VW? Are they getting better. They have some nice looking vehicles inside & out.
This will be very interesting, we should see the results in a few months at the North American Auto Show in Detroit. I'm guessing VW engines (diesel too) with very dif interior and exterior - since it'll be delayed a year after the DCX version. I'm hoping thats what the extra time was used for. With VW's experience bringing the Tourage (sp?) to market along with the Porsche version, this should be as well done? I would expect typical VW warranties too, not the Chrysler
I've got 1 kid with another coming. In our 2007 T&C with Stow N Go, my 2 year old daugher is in a forward facing Birtax convertible, a large one, in one of the 2nd row seats. I haven't decided what to do when the next child comes. For the time Num2 is in an infant carrier, that can go in the other 2nd row seat. The base is small and the seat tips pretty far forward for access to the 3rd row. The limiting factor of angle of tipping is how large the child seat is. Tipping the seat with the big Britax won't allow much space to get behind it. When it was reverse facing, it wouldn't tip at all with the front seat all the way back.
With Stow N Go I may end up putting the older child in the 3rd row, rear facing in the 2nd row and stowing the other 2nd row seat most of the time. That allows easy acces to both children and entertainment for the infant. It also means I can get a guest in the middle row on occasion. The 3rd row is rather tight, so any car seat means only one adult next to child, so I'm actually down to a 6-passenger vehicle. I've got another month or so to figure that all out.
Then there is my 5-passenger vehicle (front bucktes, rear bench) that I haven't decided if I want the two kids next to each other for occasional one more guest and deal with buckling the middle child all the time or if I just want to make it only a 4 passenger vehicle. It's a tall 4WD pickup, so reaching the middle is not easy.
Someone mentioned Chrysler dropped the wiper de-icers, that's a shame. My Sienna has those and I for one am glad they copied that nifty idea.
CR dinged 3 Toyotas, but note the Sienna was not one of the models with lower reliability, in fact it's the most reliable van by far.
The Sienna doesn't get the 6 speed from the Camry V6 that they complained about, so I doubt its reliability record will change. It still uses the proven 5 speed auto.
It's good to see CR criticize Toyota, though, if only to assert their independence a little.
I've overcome that phobia.
The Ford had fit and finish issues, but the powertrain was OK. The Subaru was great.
So I've had luck for the most part.
The only reason I am looking at minivans is I am expecting to go from one child to three in one swoop. I assumed that I would be able to put two infant carriers in the 2nd row, and have my three year old in her car seat in the third row(Ontario law requires rear-facing up to 9kg (20 lbs) full car seat up to 18kg (40 pounds), then into booster seat till 80 pounds).
For those of you who own minivans, what do you own, and would the 2 infant seats in second row, and child seat in third work well?
The option of putting infants in the third row seems to leave them to far from Mom and Dad.
(I've never dealt with carseats but have driven a 2000 and a 2005 Odyssey extensively). The seats that can be set as captains chairs or slide together to form an aisle on the side are wonderful ideas.
That should work for the most part, two infants in middle row and older in 3rd. As you visit dealers, you may want to bring one infant carrier base to test how the middle row seats move with it installed if there is enough clearnace to get you the younger one to buckle him up. The Sienna would work great by sliding the two middle row seats together.
Honestly, you may be better off with a wide 5-passenger vehicle (SUV/Crossover) that allows for the three in the 2nd row and sometimes larger cargo space since you would have to keep at least part of the 3rd row seat up.
Our car seats are 20" wide. Hiproom on most 5 seaters is well below 60", assuming you can really bunch them up and expose a rear-facing newborn to the prying fingers of a toddler facing forward.
The best part is you can move the middle seat slightly forward, and offset, so the outer seats get more shoulder room.
I think it's the widest 3-seat arrangement you'll find this side of a Ford Expedition (also 3 individual seats, ultra wide).
http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-to-fix-600000-sienna-minivans.html
They are going to repair all the doors with the spot weld problem for free. I never had the problem on our 04 Sienna.
Agreed? Think about it...
Then the Sienna is still the most reliable van, and the door issue was most definitely included in the reliability numbers.
CR just knocked 3 Toyota models for being below average in reliability, but no Sienna was on that list. The Sienna is their top rated van, and the most reliable.
So even accounting for that door issue, Sienna is the safest bet.
07-08 models were not affected.
PS They are not fixing this secretly - they are sending letters to 600,000 owners.
I got one from JDP and one from CR.
To me and my dad, it was the ultimate gimmick.
Think about it. If a movie was on everyone would be facing forwards so they could see it!
That situation wouldn't happen in normal use.
The table you'd simply remove.
My biggest issue was the lack of any kind of room when facing rearward. There really wasn't any to speak of. My legs were under the rear bench, which means nobody could sit across from me.
If I had to pick, I'd take Stow N Go any day of the week. Much easier to use, much more useful in general, and less of a gimmick.
Besides, I've hit my head on my DVD screen and my seats don't swivel!