Well, I've had my beautiful 2004 CR-V EX blue for a week now, and I have to say, it feels like I've had it forever. I've forgiven the dealer for making me wait so long to get it, but I haven't forgotten! I haven't named her yet! I'm having trouble thinking of something. My 91 civic was Hildy the Honda, LOL. I want something a little more elegant this time around!
I have quickly become used to driving the CRV and while I am a little slower at adapting to its size (still a little nervous backing out of places and making sharp corners in the parking garage at work), I am on my way with that, too. I *love* sitting up high so that I can see over traffic. In my civic, there was nothing worse than getting caught behind some big vehicle that I couldn't see over or around. I love the 6-CD player, and the speakers sound nice for being factory speakers. I still have to explore to see where the other 4 are actually located... Honda has done a great job at disguising them, even in the front doors. Love the moonroof, too, it's just unfortunate that it's been rainy this week so I haven't been able to use it much since 4th of July. The air conditioner works so well that it's TOO cold most of the time! It's on for two seconds and I'm freezing!
Gas mileage I'm getting so far could be better, but it's not bad. I'm down to 1/4 tank with about 220 miles on it... so I guess that's about 20mpg at this point. I'm taking it on my first mini road trip this weekend, 3 hours each way. I'll see what the gas mileage is like with all highway miles, and sit in the driver's seat for 3 hours... then I'll come home and write my official review.
I just had to share my love with some fellow CR-V enthusiasts. My mom is jealous. She drives company cars, and is limited to the choices provided by her company. She is currently driving a Subaru Outback (which she *despises*!) but is due for a new company car now. Right now, they are offering only three choices: the Outback (which she obviously doesn't want), the Toyota Sienna (which she's leaning toward, but doesn't really like because she doesn't want to drive a minivan!) and the Buick Rendevouz. They used to offer the Pontiac GrandPrix, which my mom had before the Subaru and liked... but they are only offering bigger cars now because of the amount of stuff the employees are required to lug around. Anyway, she loves the cargo room in the CRV and wishes she could drive it for her company car! Sorry I went on a little bit of a tangent!
So I'm at about 8200 miles on my 04 CR-V, and haven't changed the oil yet. My dealer told me to wait until 10k. Is it okay to bring it in now or would I be better off to wait until they figure this whole fire debacle out? My "Main't req" light blink when I start it up, but my service department says that's just a reminder. If I do bring it in now, is there anyway I can check to make sure the oil change is done correctly? I've lived in NYC since college (many moons ago) and just moved to Chicago so having a car is a real novelty and I'm not familar with what's under the hood. Although I am technically inclined enough to hook up my vcr and DVD home theatre system. Is it difficult to check the seals?
Why is it only the first oil change? The oil filter is replaced at every oil change, so I don't understand how this oil dripping is a problem only for the first oil change. Can anybody explain?
And why is Honda not planning to install the barrier to prevent the oil dripping onto the exhaust that the Post article talks about? They don't need to recall the vehicles to do so, it is something that can just be performed at the first oil changes.
Will Honda face up to this problem and design a fix, or just start blaming the mechanics? Its a very poor design that allows oil to drip down onto the exhaust manifold in the first place. Oil filters will leak if not properly installed, but to have a leak hit the manifold is just sloppy design. Any vehicle whose engine does not allow easy and clear access to a normal maintainance item is not worth buying.
Because they have to admit there was a problem in the first place.
Might be something related to the assembly. Perhaps the surface is not clean when the original oil filter is installed, maybe some residual adhesives? Who knows.
That might be causing the original gasket to stick, when the filter is removed the gasket stays.
Actually, a sticky surface would also explain the pinched gaskets.
Now Honda has to weight the cost of installing heat shields against the cost of all this bad press.
"On the Post's web page, guess what? It's the #1 e-mailed article!"
I'm not surprised. Something goes wrong with a Honda and it becomes big news.
Maryclover - I would go ahead and get the oil changed, rather than wait to see what happens. Just mention the oil fires as a gentle reminder when you bring the car in. Then keep an eye on it as you drive the vehicle for the next few days.
With this much publicity surrounding the issue, dealers are going to be very careful about oil changes. They know they'd loose a lawsuit if a car goes up in flames. In fact, this may be the safest time in history to have your oil changed.
Thanks for the input, folks. I am going to keep a careful eye on the coolant level. There is nothing in the driveway on the snow, and there is nothing in the exhaust gases that would suggest a leak. The oil on the dipstick appears to be normal. I'm beginning to wonder if the teenage dropout employed by the dealer to change oil and filter actually checks fluid levels, as he is supposed to do? In future, I'm going to check them myself.
Is a mechanic/technician/oil changer to simply pay attention!
When I was a kid working in a gas station, I clearly remember my boss telling me..." Make sure the old gasket doesn't stick on the mounting plate" He really didn't need to tell me this since common sense would do the same thing.
But, one time, I got in a hurry and didn't notice the o'ring had stuck in the Chevy's canister oil filter. When started the car to check for leaks, I had one...a bad one, and a mess to clean up. And, the oil leaked on the exhaust pipe making a hell of a stink.
It doesn't take a special shield...just the full attention of the person changing the oil!
Clearly a mechanic problem, but Honda can't ignore it, way too much bad press. Honda's really getting a black eye on this, just like Toyota with their oil sludge problem.
Fuel filters are not close to the exhaust. Why? 'Cuz if they're not installed properly or they leak, guess what can happen? Same thing with these oil filters.
I too have done many many oil & filter changes myself, but I did mess one up on my Accord and left the old gasket on. It didn't leak for a whole week, then it all came out.
Maryclover, I'd go ahead and get the oil changed, tell the dealer you're aware of these fires and INSIST on seeing the old filter, buy a fire extinguisher and know how to use it if need.
Still, why CR-Vs in particular? Honda sells far more Accords. Why not those? Or Elements? TSXs? The 2.4l is a widely used engine, aren't they all mounted transversely? Or do those have the exhaust on the opposite side?
I think Lee Iacocca snuck in to their assembly line and dabbed some super glue on the gaskets. The guy dreamed of kicking the Japanese back into the Pacific Ocean in his book. LOL
"I've never seen any other car fires blamed on an oil change - I'm sure there are some, but 27 reported in a couple of years for one model?"
Just curious. If it's not the mechanics, how do you explain the fact that half of these vehicles were found to have pinched seals or stacked gaskets? How do you explain that this is happening immediately after oil changes? If this were a factory defect, wouldn't it happen after leaving the factory?
I mean, sure, there are still a lot of unanswered questions. (Why only the first oil change? Why no 2002 models?) But why NOT start with the mechanics?
I agree that Honda needs to take a proactive approach, though. They are contacting all dealers and oil-change chains, but they are not contacting owners directly. This misses the DIYers.
Historically Americans where very good on engineering things that are fool proof. During WWII American military equipment was not always the best in the world but sure was fool proof. Good idea. ALL of us at some point may act like fools. No matter how stupid, negligent or tired your mechanic are there should be a fool proof design to protect against rare but sure failures. This is simply a statistics. I would blame Honda POOR ENGINEERING on these fires.
How did the woman who sued MacDonalds win her case against them for serving hot coffee?
Seriously, I'm glad that Sabrina won her case because it calls attention to the issue. It also gave her the satisfaction and compensation, I think she deserved. However, I'm not convinced that the payout came from the proper wallet. It's that simple.
"...Any how, why did Sabrina win her case against Honda if it was all the mechanic's fault?... " I will answer your question with another question :-). How the Big Tabacco Case was won, when we all know (common sence)that if person was smoking - this was all his own fault?
In the McDonalds' case, McD's had been sued several other times and still refused to moderate the coffee temperature. The fact that McD's had been warned so many times before irritated the jury and they hammered them.
Seems to me a shield would be a simple enough fix.
Which begs the next question - if filters are failing, you have to wonder how many engines Honda is replacing when the oil lets loose and the motor seizes?
sounds to me like Honda should be cleared of this one. "if filters are failing, you have to wonder how many engines Honda is replacing when the oil lets loose and the motor seizes?"
Good question. And one that should be asked industry-wide. BUT if the filters are found to be installed wrong, does Honda pay to fix em? Or does the oil change facility?
Big three cars had been leaking engine oil for decades, were there many fires related to that?
"Honda, which is consistently rated among the safest of automakers, doesn't know why the fires are happening in only the two most recent CR-V model years and not earlier ones, said spokesman Andy Boyd. "That's the part we're still investigating," he said. "Honestly, that's something we're still trying to understand."
Could it be since the new engine is more powerful than before, thus the exhaust is much hotter than the old ones? Human errors happen on all cars (make/model/year), could it be the pre-2003 CR-V are not "HOT" enough to cause a fire?
Anyway you analyze it, except Honda's way apparently, if it causes fire on certain models but not on others, it's a design flaw (or a manufacturing problem, not in this case).
The temp on that coffee was unusually high, outside of the acceptable norm. She didn't just spill coffee, she was severely burned by a product that was much hotter than it should have been.
The media just loves to jump all over trial lawyers.
Dunno about Steve's suggestion for a heat shield for McD's coffee cups, though. ;-)
Big Tobacco lied about their product for ages. Once someone is addicted it's not so much voluntary any more.
Back to engine fires, if it's the mechanic's fault, then does Honda put all the incompetent mechanics to work only on the 2003 and 2004 model CR-Vs, but not the 2002s, and not Accord or Elements or TSXs?
Doesn't add up. Why the pattern on just one car and only certain model years?
Sorry but my Lido conspiracy theory is more believable.
Who did NOT lie to us? Are most of the ad's on TV basically lies? How about drug ads? How about political campaigns? Aren't they ALL lies all over? We are used to these lies to the point that we are not even thinking of it. When politician creates his "image" to the public, is he basically lying to us - we call it "manipulating public opinion"? When News Media choose to report smth. and NOT to report even more important news - do they lie (liberal bias in the news)? Did the President's men were cheating us on the Iraq? Can we sue them ALL for lies? :-)
I bought my 2002 in December, 2001. After 8000km (Canada, you know) I took it in to the dealer for its first service. This dealer has a no-reservation-just-show-up-and-we'll-do-it-while-you-wait-and-wa- tch thingy. So I waited and watched. The "mechanic" (oil-changer) went into the pit and played around for a while, and then he came back out and walked into the parts department. After 5 minutes he emerged with about 6 oil filters and placed them on the tray over the pit before diving underneath again. I was amused. I should have been scared. When he had finished, I asked him if there was a problem and he said that this was the first time he had changed a filter on this new model, and wasn't sure which was the correct filter. I shrugged it off, paid the bill and drove home. Next morning I noticed oil on the driveway - not a lot, but enough for me to phone the dealer. I was asked to bring the car back in and they would fix it. They fixed it, and when I asked what the problem was, I was told that the "mechanic" had accidentally spilled some of the old oil when he removed the filter, and that it had pooled on a horizontal part of the frame from where it had dripped onto my driveway. It sounded plausible at the time, and I forgot all about it, since the problem went away. Now, I'm wonderin......
Another thought I've had is that there may be some ingredient in the break-in oil which makes it much more volatile than the regular oil. Dunno, though, I'm not a chemist.
I can honestly say I did not tip the Washington Post off to this. I haven't even seen a copy (except on web, cuz they don't sell it here). I can buy it tomorrow (they get it one day late here), which of course I will. My guess is it had something to do with the finished NHTSA investigation - but I do feel great after almost a year
Bottom line, without ascribing fault is this - Honda handled all this poorly. They could have notified the dealers when the second one happened. I don't feel bad at all. The real Q is why if they knew the answer a year ago why didn't they send out notifcation an warnings then...No problem, easy fix. Nothing to do with fault.
Watch NBC nightly news tonite. I hear there is a story.
Today I get a recall notice for the airbag. No problem, except I get two identical. Looking closer, I realize the other one is for my 03 CRV that blew up. I can laugh. I'll send it to the insurance co. They still have the car wrapped up.
The point being made with the coffee and smoking cases is that case law is a fickle business. Verdicts get overturned. They get appealed.
It occurs to me now that today's announcement may be bad news for Sabrina and her insurance company. :-(
If the NHTSA investigation has now accepted that the most likely explanation for these fires is human error, then Honda may be granted and could win their appeal case. She may be required to begin a new suit against the dealer.
If that happens, will you argue that Honda must NOT be at fault because a court case said so?
"Back to engine fires, if it's the mechanic's fault, then does Honda put all the incompetent mechanics to work only on the 2003 and 2004 model CR-Vs, but not the 2002s, and not Accord or Elements or TSXs?
Doesn't add up. Why the pattern on just one car and only certain model years?"
Which is why I'm not jumping to conclusions.
The error rate for the 2003 models is 0.015%. Yes, that's a fraction of a percent. So, I'm thinking it is very possible that 2002 owners have not experienced this because of blind luck. It is also possible that this has happened to 2002 owners, but none of them have reported it. We may see more cases come out of the woodwork now that the issue is in the news.
I accomplished my goal, even if I had little to do with the news media, at least directly. The money is irrelevant - win or lose, I won. This won't go away for at least awhile, and frankly Honda issuing TSB, etc, does not absolve Honda, IMO, but I'll let the judge decide that. As I said before, the money is secondary (but not unimportant). I feel good. Perhaps a life was saved.
For a few years there were many many stories about mechanics draining the transmission fluid out of a Subaru and then filling the engine with four quarts of engine oil resulting in a fluid-less transmission and a WAY overfilled engine. A huge mess. Jiffy Lube took the brunt of the blame for these debacles. For those cars the skid plate from underneath the car needed to be removed or moved to drain oil and replace filter. But I noticed on my 2004 Subaru Forester, the skid plate no longer has to be removed to access the drain plug or the filter and they are both clearly labeled "engine" on the engine oil filter and "oil" near the drain plug :-) I guess Subaru, while making some good money from Jiffy Lube, just got sick of replacing engines and transmissions so they made the process dummy proof. Not to mention, a new car owner would be much happier with the original engine than something installed outside the factory. Honda could learn a little lesson.
Ah one more thing... since carelessness is part of human nature, and part of what you pay for when you go to a quick-lube type of place, shouldn't it not be life threatening? Last time I went to a Jiffy Lube was in 1994 with my '93 Honda Civic. First and last visit. They failed to remove they gasket that they themselves installed on the previous oil change. All the oil leaked out of the engine overnight and my oil light popped on when I was half-way to work next morning. They came to get me and cleaned up the mess, my Civic did not catch fire, and I left a lifetime of free oil changes sitting on the table to opt for doing it myself. My point being - careless will happen - fires should not - and if you want something done right... ;-)
Honda's "solution" for the spontaneous combustion problem with the CRV is to better train their "certified Honda Technicians". Huh??? If a certified Honda Technician can't even properly change the oil, how can one expect them to properly maintain the rest of the vehicle?
And what about the backyard mechanic? Who is going to provide this specialized training to them???????????
And what about the oil change guy at the gas station, or Jiffy Lube?? Is Honda going to provide specialized training for them too???
You wanna hear a conspiracy theory, that's better than your Iacocca-glued-it one?
Faced with a bigger engine that will burn more fuel, along with a more stringent emission standard, Honda deliberately made the exhaust "burn" at a higher than safe temperature, so that they can have a cleaner emission, knowing their new CR-V will be subject to test/inspection/certification for all the new ULEV/ULEV2 or what have you standards. In their onboard control code, Honda also set a "timer", say at 9,000 miles or 10,000 miles, to lower the exhaust temp to a more reasonable level, when they think they are off the emission hook.
They thought they could only get caught if people would measure and compare the temps before and after the switch. But low and behold, your friendly and highly trained Honda technicians just had to make those careless oil spill onto their hot manifolds...
As to why it only happens after the 1st oil change? Look at the odds: only 27 out of 150k caught fire after 1st oc. What are the chances that a CR-V's 2nd oc is still before the "honda switch" AND a "human error" just so happened?
This is now officially Honda's sludge issue. I really think like the sludge deal with Toyota this all comes from corporate arrogance. I guess being on top so long does breed a can do no wrong attitude. Admitting fault is a hard thing. If they had done so in the beginning we'd not be posting write now. Instead what will turn out to affect a relatively few cars will put a smudge on the brand. When I bought my Camry the knock was 'sludge'. I have no doubt future CRV shoppers will hear the 'fire' warnings balleyhood by the competitiors. Hopefully Honda changes its stand quickly and steps to the plate instead of blaming the mechanics; I mean they look like a bunch of finger pointers at this point. I guess all their experienced mechanics are getting lazy changing the oil on ONLY CRVs! The extreme loyalists will deny that this is even and issue just as their Toyota couterparts do the same with the sludge issue to this day. Like it or not the cat is out of the bag. Is the CRV still perhaps the best vehicle in its class. YES. But it is not 100% perfection and something needs a redesign.
I have to laugh when I hear posts about the news picking the story up because its about 'Honda' Of course they do, its not news that Fords leak oil and Chryslers drop trannys at 35K. Of course if every Ford that dripped oil in driveways burst into flames it would feel like a war zone on every block!
I all for drama, but that fire was WAY WAY worse than mine. Mine never got past the firewall, although there were scorch marks up the windshield. That was an old couple I believe. They were on TV.
That same CRV and older couple were featured last night on the 11pm local (Connecticut) news and again at this morning's broadcast. Same story from Honda...it's the mechanics..but on our broadcast the newscasters interviewed a couple of mechanics refusing to take the blame stating that no other Honda cars are going up in flames, so it's not their (the mechanics) faults! Needless to say in our news broadcast, Honda looked very bad..the flaming car and Honda not stepping up to the plate to fix it!
As everyone knows, we have a 2002 and a 2003 CRV. Any data on the 2002s? Our news said only 2003 & 2004 model years! (I guess I can't complain too much, last month we bought a 94 del Sol to toy with!)
I have two Honda's CRV's a 2002 and a 2003. I change my own oil. I have done at least nine changes by now. The oil filter is just horrible to reach, and it is very small. The first time change is the worst. It had to have been put on by a gorilla. I worked long and hard to remove it. I nearly destroyed the old filter in the process. However, the o-ring gasket did not dislodge from its channel; it came off with the filter, each first time (both vehicles). After the fires report I became very careful in checking for a sticking o-ring. The last time it did happened. The o-ring was partial dislodged from its channel in the filter body. It did come off completely though. After lubricating the o-ring gasket I only hand tighten the filter. Even then it is incredibly tight when removal time comes. While this is good I believe the force necessary to remove the filter causes the o-ring gasket to be jarred from the filter's channel.
I have been changing my own oil for over 40 years, and I have never had a gasket to come off of a filter until now. First, I blame the oil technician for not checking for a stuck gasket, but I believe the filter design is the main fault. A gasket that is so susceptible to dislodging is a disaster ready to happen (has happened).
I made a special device to catch the old oily filter and any leaked oil which usually amounts to less than a half cup. But, I always spill some oil, and I always carefully clean it off the car's underside (and the driveway).
I replaced my tires last week, too. I put the Michelin Harmony on both vehicles. They have super ratings and have proven to be very quiet and a $50 rebate per set. I really like the tires.
According to the investigative reporters at the Detroit News, the problem could be more widespread than some would have us believe:
"The problem could be more widespread. Honda said there have been 164 warranty claims related to the issue. There are no plans for a recall, the company said. "
Also one woman has been hurt ".... when she was hit by a car after pulling her burning Honda to the side of a road"
Honda only admitted to 164 warranty claims and 27 fires because Honda only reported 22 -03's to NHTSA as part of their investigation. That investigation ended on 2/28/03, so ANY fires on 03's after that date would not be captured and HOnda conveniently did not admit to any more.
As for the 04's, the 4 or 5 reported are the ones that are on the NHTSA site.
In other words, Honda played a little loose with the data. They did not report any more fires than were publicly known....
Oh man, the press is gonna have a field day with this one. Honda needs some serious PR damage control.
New (modified) conspiracy theory: Lee Iacocca hired the same guys Dateline did during that GM "waiting to explode" episode and staged that fire. There was a rocket ignition and the vehicle was traveling faster than the speed stated. Soon we'll hear Stone Phillips apologize to a national audience. LOL
"I wonder if this will fade away or if more damage control will be needed"
"Oh man, the press is gonna have a field day with this one. Honda needs some serious PR damage control"
Yes, it's going to be interesting to see how the public reacts. But, consider the Consumer Reports test on the Isuzu Trooper (infamous roll over crisis). That was based on a test done at a private facility without real world data to back it up, and look at the damage created. The Ford Explorer however had "real world rollovers" and was plastered all over the press for quite some time, but people still bought them. As bad as this picture paints, people will forgive and forget, except the ones that experienced the fires. It's all in a name................. HONDA!
here lately. Edmunds could charge for this reading,lol!
As a side note, I changed my own at 4Kish, and had the local Stlr do it at 8Kish,(while doing the trans recall,etc.) I asked the SA what oil,he the Dlr, used and he looked at me like I was being nosey. He handed me a coupon for $5 off on a Castrol Semi-sythetic change, "next time" at his Dlrship.
I sneaked back to the bays and saw no jugs of oil; only 55 gal drums of Castrol Semi-Syn. OK stuff, but not equal,imo, to Castrol Snytec (full syn), or Mobil One, which I had used in the first change done by me.
I just had it changed again at the local hillbilly "Grease Monkey" quick lube joint, while getting my annual inspection. They are actually pretty good guys there, but it took their best guys working from Top and Bottom of car to remove previous filter installed by Apple Tree Honda. They also were up to date on "oil change fire situ", and made sure oil ring was out and wiped up all spilled oil very carefully. I had them use Mobil 1, 5W-30, by the bye, as the 'rec'd weight of 5W-20 is fine for breakin, or winters in MN,et al, but not for highway/hot weather use,imo.
I have 2 Honda M'cycles and other M'cyles and cars. Been doing oil changes for years; agree that the CR-V is The hardest oil filter change I have ever done.
For you DIY'ers, I rec'd a specialty oil filter wrench made by several co.'s used to fit on oem Honda M'cycle filters, espc. the Gold Wing. Link here, if it works, is good example, though there are sev. brands out there that are similar. The keys are the thinness of wrench and the serrated filter grip area.
The obvious fix is to use a non-petroleum base for making synthetic motor oil.
Maybe we can make engine oil out of bananas. That'll keep the crankshaft slick and there's nothing flammable to ignite when you have an oil leak. Toss some vanilla wafers in the air filter and your car will smell like banana pudding.
"...its not news that Fords leak oil and Chryslers drop trannys at 35K. Of course if every Ford that dripped oil in driveways burst into flames it would feel like a war zone on every block! "
I have to giggle 'cuz both Ford and Chevy DO have a reputation for killing their customers, or at least destroying their own products. Now Honda may be joining this group? Consider the Ford Pinto - poorly placed gas tanks exploded causing 500 deaths. Ford Explorer - poorly chosen tires exploded causing 300 deaths. Chevy Corvair - to save $4 per car no rear sway bar was installed and cars would flip over at very low speeds - don't know the death or injury rate. Ford Crown Victoria - Ford didn't learn from the Pinto gas tank debacle and had a repeat of exploding gas tanks at low speed rear end collisions, no deaths known of. Shall I go on...?
Comments
I have quickly become used to driving the CRV and while I am a little slower at adapting to its size (still a little nervous backing out of places and making sharp corners in the parking garage at work), I am on my way with that, too. I *love* sitting up high so that I can see over traffic. In my civic, there was nothing worse than getting caught behind some big vehicle that I couldn't see over or around. I love the 6-CD player, and the speakers sound nice for being factory speakers. I still have to explore to see where the other 4 are actually located... Honda has done a great job at disguising them, even in the front doors. Love the moonroof, too, it's just unfortunate that it's been rainy this week so I haven't been able to use it much since 4th of July. The air conditioner works so well that it's TOO cold most of the time! It's on for two seconds and I'm freezing!
Gas mileage I'm getting so far could be better, but it's not bad. I'm down to 1/4 tank with about 220 miles on it... so I guess that's about 20mpg at this point. I'm taking it on my first mini road trip this weekend, 3 hours each way. I'll see what the gas mileage is like with all highway miles, and sit in the driver's seat for 3 hours... then I'll come home and write my official review.
I just had to share my love with some fellow CR-V enthusiasts. My mom is jealous. She drives company cars, and is limited to the choices provided by her company. She is currently driving a Subaru Outback (which she *despises*!) but is due for a new company car now. Right now, they are offering only three choices: the Outback (which she obviously doesn't want), the Toyota Sienna (which she's leaning toward, but doesn't really like because she doesn't want to drive a minivan!) and the Buick Rendevouz. They used to offer the Pontiac GrandPrix, which my mom had before the Subaru and liked... but they are only offering bigger cars now because of the amount of stuff the employees are required to lug around. Anyway, she loves the cargo room in the CRV and wishes she could drive it for her company car! Sorry I went on a little bit of a tangent!
So I'm at about 8200 miles on my 04 CR-V, and haven't changed the oil yet. My dealer told me to wait until 10k. Is it okay to bring it in now or would I be better off to wait until they figure this whole fire debacle out? My "Main't req" light blink when I start it up, but my service department says that's just a reminder. If I do bring it in now, is there anyway I can check to make sure the oil change is done correctly? I've lived in NYC since college (many moons ago) and just moved to Chicago so having a car is a real novelty and I'm not familar with what's under the hood. Although I am technically inclined enough to hook up my vcr and DVD home theatre system. Is it difficult to check the seals?
What do you think?
And why is Honda not planning to install the barrier to prevent the oil dripping onto the exhaust that the Post article talks about? They don't need to recall the vehicles to do so, it is something that can just be performed at the first oil changes.
Might be something related to the assembly. Perhaps the surface is not clean when the original oil filter is installed, maybe some residual adhesives? Who knows.
That might be causing the original gasket to stick, when the filter is removed the gasket stays.
Actually, a sticky surface would also explain the pinched gaskets.
Now Honda has to weight the cost of installing heat shields against the cost of all this bad press.
-juice
I'm not surprised. Something goes wrong with a Honda and it becomes big news.
Maryclover - I would go ahead and get the oil changed, rather than wait to see what happens. Just mention the oil fires as a gentle reminder when you bring the car in. Then keep an eye on it as you drive the vehicle for the next few days.
With this much publicity surrounding the issue, dealers are going to be very careful about oil changes. They know they'd loose a lawsuit if a car goes up in flames. In fact, this may be the safest time in history to have your oil changed.
When I was a kid working in a gas station, I clearly remember my boss telling me..." Make sure the old gasket doesn't stick on the mounting plate" He really didn't need to tell me this since common sense would do the same thing.
But, one time, I got in a hurry and didn't notice the o'ring had stuck in the Chevy's canister oil filter. When started the car to check for leaks, I had one...a bad one, and a mess to clean up. And, the oil leaked on the exhaust pipe making a hell of a stink.
It doesn't take a special shield...just the full attention of the person changing the oil!
I've never seen any other car fires blamed on an oil change - I'm sure there are some, but 27 reported in a couple of years for one model?
This smells like sludge to me, and Honda should be a bit more proactive reassuring the owners than they have been, imo.
Host Sneakers thinks that the CR-V has an external combustion engine :-)
Steve, Host
Fuel filters are not close to the exhaust. Why? 'Cuz if they're not installed properly or they leak, guess what can happen? Same thing with these oil filters.
I too have done many many oil & filter changes myself, but I did mess one up on my Accord and left the old gasket on. It didn't leak for a whole week, then it all came out.
Maryclover, I'd go ahead and get the oil changed, tell the dealer you're aware of these fires and INSIST on seeing the old filter, buy a fire extinguisher and know how to use it if need.
Good point!
Still, why CR-Vs in particular? Honda sells far more Accords. Why not those? Or Elements? TSXs? The 2.4l is a widely used engine, aren't they all mounted transversely? Or do those have the exhaust on the opposite side?
I think Lee Iacocca snuck in to their assembly line and dabbed some super glue on the gaskets. The guy dreamed of kicking the Japanese back into the Pacific Ocean in his book. LOL
-juice
Just curious. If it's not the mechanics, how do you explain the fact that half of these vehicles were found to have pinched seals or stacked gaskets? How do you explain that this is happening immediately after oil changes? If this were a factory defect, wouldn't it happen after leaving the factory?
I mean, sure, there are still a lot of unanswered questions. (Why only the first oil change? Why no 2002 models?) But why NOT start with the mechanics?
I agree that Honda needs to take a proactive approach, though. They are contacting all dealers and oil-change chains, but they are not contacting owners directly. This misses the DIYers.
Lido you crazy nut. Remember the Kerkorian hostile take-over?
-juice
During WWII American military equipment was not always the best in the world but sure was fool proof.
Good idea. ALL of us at some point may act like fools.
No matter how stupid, negligent or tired your mechanic are there should be a fool proof design to protect against rare but sure failures.
This is simply a statistics.
I would blame Honda POOR ENGINEERING on these fires.
Any how, why did Sabrina win her case against Honda if it was all the mechanic's fault?
-juice
tazereli "Honda Pilot" Jul 9, 2004 1:00pm
Steve, Host
Seriously, I'm glad that Sabrina won her case because it calls attention to the issue. It also gave her the satisfaction and compensation, I think she deserved. However, I'm not convinced that the payout came from the proper wallet. It's that simple.
I will answer your question with another question :-).
How the Big Tabacco Case was won, when we all know (common sence)that if person was smoking - this was all his own fault?
Seems to me a shield would be a simple enough fix.
Which begs the next question - if filters are failing, you have to wonder how many engines Honda is replacing when the oil lets loose and the motor seizes?
Steve, Host
"if filters are failing, you have to wonder how many engines Honda is replacing when the oil lets loose and the motor seizes?"
Good question. And one that should be asked industry-wide. BUT if the filters are found to be installed wrong, does Honda pay to fix em? Or does the oil change facility?
"Honda, which is consistently rated among the safest of automakers, doesn't know why the fires are happening in only the two most recent CR-V model years and not earlier ones, said spokesman Andy Boyd. "That's the part we're still investigating," he said. "Honestly, that's something we're still trying to understand."
Could it be since the new engine is more powerful than before, thus the exhaust is much hotter than the old ones? Human errors happen on all cars (make/model/year), could it be the pre-2003 CR-V are not "HOT" enough to cause a fire?
Anyway you analyze it, except Honda's way apparently, if it causes fire on certain models but not on others, it's a design flaw (or a manufacturing problem, not in this case).
The media just loves to jump all over trial lawyers.
Dunno about Steve's suggestion for a heat shield for McD's coffee cups, though. ;-)
Big Tobacco lied about their product for ages. Once someone is addicted it's not so much voluntary any more.
Back to engine fires, if it's the mechanic's fault, then does Honda put all the incompetent mechanics to work only on the 2003 and 2004 model CR-Vs, but not the 2002s, and not Accord or Elements or TSXs?
Doesn't add up. Why the pattern on just one car and only certain model years?
Sorry but my Lido conspiracy theory is more believable.
-juice
We are used to these lies to the point that we are not even thinking of it. When politician creates his "image" to the public, is he basically lying to us - we call it "manipulating public opinion"? When News Media choose to report smth. and NOT to report even more important news - do they lie (liberal bias in the news)? Did the President's men were cheating us on the Iraq? Can we sue them ALL for lies? :-)
I shrugged it off, paid the bill and drove home. Next morning I noticed oil on the driveway - not a lot, but enough for me to phone the dealer. I was asked to bring the car back in and they would fix it. They fixed it, and when I asked what the problem was, I was told that the "mechanic" had accidentally spilled some of the old oil when he removed the filter, and that it had pooled on a horizontal part of the frame from where it had dripped onto my driveway. It sounded plausible at the time, and I forgot all about it, since the problem went away.
Now, I'm wonderin......
Another thought I've had is that there may be some ingredient in the break-in oil which makes it much more volatile than the regular oil. Dunno, though, I'm not a chemist.
Bottom line, without ascribing fault is this - Honda handled all this poorly. They could have notified the dealers when the second one happened. I don't feel bad at all. The real Q is why if they knew the answer a year ago why didn't they send out notifcation an warnings then...No problem, easy fix. Nothing to do with fault.
Watch NBC nightly news tonite. I hear there is a story.
You go, girl!!!
It occurs to me now that today's announcement may be bad news for Sabrina and her insurance company. :-(
If the NHTSA investigation has now accepted that the most likely explanation for these fires is human error, then Honda may be granted and could win their appeal case. She may be required to begin a new suit against the dealer.
If that happens, will you argue that Honda must NOT be at fault because a court case said so?
"Back to engine fires, if it's the mechanic's fault, then does Honda put all the incompetent mechanics to work only on the 2003 and 2004 model CR-Vs, but not the 2002s, and not Accord or Elements or TSXs?
Doesn't add up. Why the pattern on just one car and only certain model years?"
Which is why I'm not jumping to conclusions.
The error rate for the 2003 models is 0.015%. Yes, that's a fraction of a percent. So, I'm thinking it is very possible that 2002 owners have not experienced this because of blind luck. It is also possible that this has happened to 2002 owners, but none of them have reported it. We may see more cases come out of the woodwork now that the issue is in the news.
As I said before, the money is secondary (but not unimportant). I feel good. Perhaps a life was saved.
The too much in a hurry person changing the oil didn't bother to make sure the old gasket didn't stick to the mounting plate!!
Just pure carelessness!
And what about the backyard mechanic? Who is going to provide this specialized training to them???????????
And what about the oil change guy at the gas station, or Jiffy Lube?? Is Honda going to provide specialized training for them too???
Hello Honda? Ring-ring...anyone home???????
Faced with a bigger engine that will burn more fuel, along with a more stringent emission standard, Honda deliberately made the exhaust "burn" at a higher than safe temperature, so that they can have a cleaner emission, knowing their new CR-V will be subject to test/inspection/certification for all the new ULEV/ULEV2 or what have you standards. In their onboard control code, Honda also set a "timer", say at 9,000 miles or 10,000 miles, to lower the exhaust temp to a more reasonable level, when they think they are off the emission hook.
They thought they could only get caught if people would measure and compare the temps before and after the switch. But low and behold, your friendly and highly trained Honda technicians just had to make those careless oil spill onto their hot manifolds...
As to why it only happens after the 1st oil change? Look at the odds: only 27 out of 150k caught fire after 1st oc. What are the chances that a CR-V's 2nd oc is still before the "honda switch" AND a "human error" just so happened?
LOL....Yes, that's how they reported it before they broke for a commercial. Then after, they explained everything about the oil filter.
I have to laugh when I hear posts about the news picking the story up because its about 'Honda' Of course they do, its not news that Fords leak oil and Chryslers drop trannys at 35K. Of course if every Ford that dripped oil in driveways burst into flames it would feel like a war zone on every block!
I wonder if this will fade away or if more damage control will be needed.
Also interesting that the Detroit News put the photo up :-).
Steve, Host
As everyone knows, we have a 2002 and a 2003 CRV. Any data on the 2002s? Our news said only 2003 & 2004 model years! (I guess I can't complain too much, last month we bought a 94 del Sol to toy with!)
After the fires report I became very careful in checking for a sticking o-ring. The last time it did happened. The o-ring was partial dislodged from its channel in the filter body. It did come off completely though. After lubricating the o-ring gasket I only hand tighten the filter. Even then it is incredibly tight when removal time comes. While this is good I believe the force necessary to remove the filter causes the o-ring gasket to be jarred from the filter's channel.
I have been changing my own oil for over 40 years, and I have never had a gasket to come off of a filter until now. First, I blame the oil technician for not checking for a stuck gasket, but I believe the filter design is the main fault. A gasket that is so susceptible to dislodging is a disaster ready to happen (has happened).
I made a special device to catch the old oily filter and any leaked oil which usually amounts to less than a half cup. But, I always spill some oil, and I always carefully clean it off the car's underside (and the driveway).
I replaced my tires last week, too. I put the Michelin Harmony on both vehicles. They have super ratings and have proven to be very quiet and a $50 rebate per set. I really like the tires.
Now, to fix my airbag problem!
"The problem could be more widespread. Honda said there have been 164 warranty claims related to the issue. There are no plans for a recall, the company said. "
Also one woman has been hurt ".... when she was hit by a car after pulling her burning Honda to the side of a road"
http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0407/10/autos-207870.htm
As for the 04's, the 4 or 5 reported are the ones that are on the NHTSA site.
In other words, Honda played a little loose with the data. They did not report any more fires than were publicly known....
New (modified) conspiracy theory: Lee Iacocca hired the same guys Dateline did during that GM "waiting to explode" episode and staged that fire. There was a rocket ignition and the vehicle was traveling faster than the speed stated. Soon we'll hear Stone Phillips apologize to a national audience. LOL
-juice
"Oh man, the press is gonna have a field day with this one. Honda needs some serious PR damage control"
Yes, it's going to be interesting to see how the public reacts. But, consider the Consumer Reports test on the Isuzu Trooper (infamous roll over crisis). That was based on a test done at a private facility without real world data to back it up, and look at the damage created. The Ford Explorer however had "real world rollovers" and was plastered all over the press for quite some time, but people still bought them. As bad as this picture paints, people will forgive and forget, except the ones that experienced the fires. It's all in a name................. HONDA!
As a side note, I changed my own at 4Kish, and had the local Stlr do it at 8Kish,(while doing the trans recall,etc.) I asked the SA what oil,he the Dlr, used and he looked at me like I was being nosey.
He handed me a coupon for $5 off on a Castrol Semi-sythetic change, "next time" at his Dlrship.
I sneaked back to the bays and saw no jugs of oil; only 55 gal drums of Castrol Semi-Syn. OK stuff, but not equal,imo, to Castrol Snytec (full syn), or Mobil One, which I had used in the first change done by me.
I just had it changed again at the local hillbilly "Grease Monkey" quick lube joint, while getting my annual inspection. They are actually pretty good guys there, but it took their best guys working from Top and Bottom of car to remove previous filter installed by Apple Tree Honda. They also were up to date on "oil change fire situ", and made sure oil ring was out and wiped up all spilled oil very carefully. I had them use Mobil 1, 5W-30, by the bye, as the 'rec'd weight of 5W-20 is fine for breakin, or winters in MN,et al, but not for highway/hot weather use,imo.
I have 2 Honda M'cycles and other M'cyles and cars. Been doing oil changes for years; agree that the CR-V is The hardest oil filter change I have ever done.
For you DIY'ers, I rec'd a specialty oil filter wrench made by several co.'s used to fit on oem Honda M'cycle filters, espc. the Gold Wing. Link here, if it works, is good example, though there are sev. brands out there that are similar. The keys are the thinness of wrench and the serrated filter grip area.
http://www.pitposse.com/oilfiwr.html
This situ Should only get more and more intersting. But, again, kudos to all the posters here. Very good reading. Good Weekend to All.
BR,md
Maybe we can make engine oil out of bananas. That'll keep the crankshaft slick and there's nothing flammable to ignite when you have an oil leak. Toss some vanilla wafers in the air filter and your car will smell like banana pudding.
Steve, Host
I have to giggle 'cuz both Ford and Chevy DO have a reputation for killing their customers, or at least destroying their own products. Now Honda may be joining this group? Consider the Ford Pinto - poorly placed gas tanks exploded causing 500 deaths. Ford Explorer - poorly chosen tires exploded causing 300 deaths. Chevy Corvair - to save $4 per car no rear sway bar was installed and cars would flip over at very low speeds - don't know the death or injury rate. Ford Crown Victoria - Ford didn't learn from the Pinto gas tank debacle and had a repeat of exploding gas tanks at low speed rear end collisions, no deaths known of. Shall I go on...?