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Those who forget history are absolutely doomed to repeat it. Weekends, holidays, overtime, and the leasure time you have today were fought for. Blood was shed by our parents and grand parents. Only a fool reads a media, which is controled by large corporations, and repeats these stupid ideas. Just who is going to buy the goods/services once we have shipped the last job overseas? We are the number one consumer nation!!! We Americans have the highest standard of living on the planet.
Just as when the DOT COM bust, all these faux conservatives will come to grips with reality. Until then they were enjoying a second income off the market and when that dried up, they sued for overtime. The corporate sponsored gov't reply (after the so called salaried employees prevailed in court) that the sought to do COMP TIME. Comp time was a family values label which was nothing more than no overtime for 40 hours. Are these folks going to stand by as the standard of living goes down in America, all the while it increases in China?
Please spare us the corporate propoganda. Is it just a fluke that two oil men get elected (Bush/Cheney) and the price of fuel triples? Where is there pension/health care going down? In Japan the CEO can only get compensated 15 times the highest paid employee and in America a CEO can rape a corporation. Thats one of the LEAN rules they fail to mention. They also fail to mention the " job for life" and the method which a corporation in Japan takes care of it employees and their family.
Don't make too much of this. Most Japanese work for small businesses & have as little job security as American employees of small businesses. Also, the big Japanese corporations are feeling the heat from China & are much more willing to let their workers go than they were during the salad days of the 1980s.
Personally I think there is a lot to be said for long time employment with a single employer - benefits to both sides. I think we've let that moment slip by us.
NOT a recipe for a happy economic future and one socialists will exploit to hold the levers of power by virtue of a badly-educated and growing underclass that got their education in public schools controlled by teachers' unions who want more money and less accountablity in their performance and will get it because the deliver votes to the Democrats, in more ways than one. These people will fall prey to the promises of utopia fed them every campaign at the expense of the "rich."
So yes, the Left/Democrats will benefit most when the economy goes downhill, at least until their giveaways to buy votes no longer become sustainable. I hope I'm dead long before then.
"The Rock"
"The Rock"
If only some of these free marketeers knew what kind of stuff was being sprayed on their tomatos, and feeding it to their kids and grandkids, perhaps they would rethink the idea of all foreign stuff is good for us !!! I guess everyone forgets all to soon about the lead paint in toys from last year ??????
-Rocky
Doesn't take much skill to assemble the junk the big 3 have been building for many years. The Michigan labor force has proven that!
Amazing that the "unskilled" laborers, below the Mason-Dixon, are able to assemble the imports that work so well. :shades:
Kip
More on topic, read this guy's take on GM. I agree and can see only deepened trouble until huge change happens. I suspect more fire before the tide turns. Probably true at most big firms that wear rose colored glasses.
link title
Regards,
OW
You complain about the democrats, but I don't see any republicans (neocon or genuine) who have the courage or ability to offer a solution, and few that do anything but bend over for corporate interests and exacerbate the declining real incomes, declining standard of living, and demographic mistakes being made today. Right now, no matter which direction Joe Sixpack is conned, the future will not be different.
While you rant about the skill in Michigan, they are the same workers that Iaccoca said could not read the sign that said "Keep Arms & Hands Out of Presses"...the presses that put thousands of pounds of pressure on sheet steel to form it into a door or body panel...if they are dumb enough that they can't read the sign or simply don't know to keep their limbs out of something that can crush steel, please stop telling me about how "skilled" they are...
And, in the 10 years I was in Detroit, I was amazed at how many of them could not fill out simple entrance forms...remember, the mass migration from the south, years ago, was simply because the work did not require brains or intelligence, just brawn...and, just like those are 2nd and 3rd generation welfare, the attitude of entitlement ingrained into them by the union is ridiculous, yet amazing that it has lasted so long...
They are about to be struck by a reality check that will make Katrina look like a summer drizzle on a warm Sunday afternoon...
Bob, I hadn't realized you spent TEN YEARS in Detroit. My sympathies. I see they are now finally tearing down Tiger Stadium. I appreciate the sentiment to do something with it but saving a stadium that you replaced ten years ago in a bankrupt city seems pretty nuts.
We will see on that Southern workforce. Toyota is now committing to building the Prius in Mississippi.
Just like Obama bending over for the telecommunications industry yesterday with his vote for FISA. I did some checking and of course the likes of AT&T and Verizon spent quite a bit of cash on lobbying Mr. Obama. Looks like money well spent.
After looking at opensecrets.org, it seems all of these politicians are bought and payed for.
So who is the UAW donating to this season? And just how many PACs do they have?
I got to peek in a small union call center one time. About 10 desks in a small cubicle farm with phones and screens to use to hit the voter rolls. All separated from the rest of the office and usually locked up to comply with campaign laws I guess. As I recall, they would staff it with volunteers they'd train in the run up to most elections to canvass voters. And then on election day, they'd call and offer rides to the polls. Pretty effective campaigning I think.
They are represented well on this forum.
- Why does everyone assume the government can "fix these problems"? When was the last time the government did anything well, at a low cost, and with high quality? Um...never?!? I don't care if Obama, McCain, Chelsea Clinton or Reagan's ghost gets elected. Relying on the govt. as a crutch to help you personally is not a smart move. History has shown that except for exceptions relying on the govt. will not save you. Especially when we are talking about restoring/strengthening the middle class. No govt. can support (financially) elevating all of its constiuents to a middle class level of living. It is up to the individual, not the state. Protecting its people is not the same as supporting its people. People counter this argument by saying "But, but, look at Western Europe!" True, they do have a high standard of living based on a socially progressive support state. But have you been to Europe? They don't have nearly the disposal income Americans do. They rarely own their own homes. Their cars are small (necessity based on roads and old cities). And just watch over the next 20 years as their govts collapse (unless they lower entitlements). They just do not have the amount of new workers and level of new workers to support their systems.
- Why does everyone expect overnight fixes to problems like high oil prices? It took decades to get here and it will take decades to fix it. That doesn't mean things can't get better soon, it just means that it takes a while to fix big problems. This applies to high gas prices and to the Big 3's failures.
- Why do we decry Honda and Toyota for forward thinking? 5-10 years ago the Big 3 scoffed at the Prius and Civics of the world. "They're small! They're ugly! They look girly! Bwah ha ha!" laughed the employees at the Big 3. Whooops. Who's laughing now? Do you think making the capital decisions to build Hybrids was easy for the Japanese? Do you think they were just swimming in so much Scrooge McDuck money pools they could just piss away hundreds of millions of dollars? No. They were smart, smarter than the Big 3. And I say kudos for them. Personally I respect and admire intelligence coupled with the balls to make risky decisions. They made the smart, forward thinking choices and they won. Good for them.
- What really peeves me is this whole "whoa is me" attitude from the Big 3. This is America! Fight you fools, fight! Don't give up but fight back! Show them how you got so big and strong and show US how you plan on getting back there!
- As for the state of Michigan, I have no pity for it. Their local and state leaders are some of the worst in the nation and have been for years. Just look at who've they elected and the attitudes of these leaders. You've got to be kidding me. Michigan basically forced business to leave. And this isn't a Dem vs. GOP issue either. I can show you dozens of leaders on both sides of the aisle who have supported business friendly environments and made tough decisions to keep skilled works WANTING to work in the area. Not in Michigan, no way. Just look at the UofM board paying $4 million for Rodriguez's buyout! He sure as heck isn't worth that kind of money! (Sorry, couldn't help the football jab even if it is off topic
It's all perspective. If you are one of the "just fine," it is just lazy people wanting a handout that are poor. If you are one of the poor and hard working, you may have a different take.
I have a challenge for you - go to any city, and hold a meeting in a lower middle-class or working-class neighborhood, tell everyone in the room that they don't work hard enough and that is why they are not OK. See how long you last before the angry mob takes you out back and beats you with a rubber hose.
Or better yet - get out of your corner office. Then put all your savings (less about $1,000 dollars, which still puts you at an advantage to a lot of folks) in a blind trust that you cannot access for about two years. Then go out and get a job (good luck with that) in a factory, retail store, call center, or auto manufacturer and then start living - while smiling of course. In two years, I wonder if your opinion will be the same.
The problems in Europe - and there will be some severe problems - will be demographic, not economic.
European purchasing power is often seen as lower because Europeans aren't addicted to personal debt, and a standard of living isn't measured in Chinese gadgets and cardboard 'n plywood mcmansions. If Americans spent less than they made, that purchasing power would fall, too.
The free market is a great thing and it must exist in any kind of progressive just society...but it can become irresponsible and destructive, just as any excess.
- I agree 100% that there are millions of people working hard everyday who get screwed. Never once said there wasn't. As for their problems you list:
a) Most foreclosures are due to three reasons. First, the buyer bought a house that was waaaaay too much of their monthly income. Secondly, the greedy bankers wrote out loans they knew these people couldn't pay if they hit any bumps in the road and did it anyway. Third, people didn't put enough money down and went Interest Only or put the absolute bare minimum down so when the house went down in value they ended upside down. Flame me all you want but for people impacted by these reasons didn't do their homework and burned themselves. Of course there are other, good people who got screwed but they are in the minority.
b) 401k - Well, if you are near retirement age you should have been moving your money out of stocks anyway. If you're 10+ years away from retirement odds are (based on history) the market will recover and you'll be fine. And if you diversified at all you shouldn't have seen more than a 10-12% decrease and that is overestimating.
c) Jobs - true. Again, good people get screwed. But if you prepare yourself you're in a better position than others. And by the way, we've been outsourcing jobs for decades, it's not a new thing.
I have a challenge for you - go to any city, and hold a meeting in a lower middle-class or working-class neighborhood, tell everyone in the room that they don't work hard enough and that is why they are not OK. See how long you last before the angry mob takes you out back and beats you with a rubber hose.
- I never disparaged low or working class people. Where did you see that? I am working class.
Or better yet - get out of your corner office. Then put all your savings (less about $1,000 dollars, which still puts you at an advantage to a lot of folks) in a blind trust that you cannot access for about two years. Then go out and get a job (good luck with that) in a factory, retail store, call center, or auto manufacturer and then start living - while smiling of course. In two years, I wonder if your opinion will be the same.
- That would never happen for numerous reasons. First, I worked two jobs to put myself through college so I don't have to work retail, in a factory or for an auto manufacturer. And by the way, retail around me is hiring like crazy so it wouldn't be hard. I have seen Hiring for Managers and Salesmen/women signs at Target, Best Buy and Publix recently. Oh, and I love how you focus on the political side of the argument rather than my comments about the poor Big 3 autos.
The problems in Europe - and there will be some severe problems - will be demographic, not economic.
European purchasing power is often seen as lower because Europeans aren't addicted to personal debt, and a standard of living isn't measured in Chinese gadgets and cardboard 'n plywood mcmansions. If Americans spent less than they made, that purchasing power would fall, too.
The free market is a great thing and it must exist in any kind of progressive just society...but it can become irresponsible and destructive, just as any excess.
While I disagree that is a great response.
I am tired of reading about foreclosures and the people who are losing their homes...it seems that the vast majority of them simply bought homes hundreds of thousands of dollars above what they could afford...same with cars...so many of my bankruptcy clients have to surrender their Mercedes, their $40K pickup truck, because when the mortgage went up they could not afford it all...
When you sign on a 1-2% mortgage, and you know it is an ARM, only an idiot would expect it to stay like that forever...and if they did not know it was an arm, they are even MORE of an idiot, because all one has to do is open the financial pages of ANY newspaper, even the AJC, and look at the box that shows the prime rate and prevailing fixed and ARM mortgage rates...
And, so many of those home were investment homes where they are simply losing money, and one of my clients bought 3 Florida condos at $300K each, speculating that he could sell them for $400K each and make a killing...until Katrina changed his plans...
From the movie Airplane..."they bough their tickets, they knew what they were doing...I say, let 'em crash"...
The gov't should NOT step in and help, they should sit back and let the economy wring itself out...will there be pain???...yes...
Who here is willing to pay more in taxes so that the gov't can GIVE it to someone who bought a home or car that they could not afford in the first place...because, IMO, that is what Obama will do, if elected...
I won't be willing, but I'm sure I'll be kicking and screaming when fed taxes get raised. I'm already getting screwed by Obama's home state. Nice that even though real estate is loosing value, my assessment just went up. Nice, what's another 500/yr when I'm already paying $7500/yr. Crooks I say, and Illinois budget is a complete mess. I just love that I subsidize the corruption in Chicago.
Then we elected a Republican governor, and the House and Senate went Repub 2 years later...voila...Sandy Springs and Milton are now separate cities, as the citizens were allowed to vote, and boy, did they separate fast...2 more cities, Dunwoody and Johns Creek will probably become cities shortly...
When Sandy Springs voted "out" of Atlanta, Atlanta screamed that they lost 70 million in tax revenue...they will lose more as more suburban cities break away...
Yes, your supposition is correct...it all comes down to one group not wanting to pay to support the other group that refuses to work...it will always come down to that...
Does that mean everyone on the forum is a simpleton? You're here too.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
-Rocky
-Rocky
Good Job !!!
-Rocky
I have nary a clue about your age "trichardson" but for most folks today, going to college is like getting a mortgage payment loan and the house is not included !!!
How many people are going to buy house, have 2.5 kids, reliable transportation, on Target wages ??? GEEEZ !!!!
Oh, and I love how you focus on the political side of the argument rather than my comments about the poor Big 3 autos. Really, I do. Becuase I know why you don't argue the others my friend.
I see you've only posted like 8 times thus you must of missed that 51% of Toyota's are imported in the U.S. or that the Japanese and Chinese, manipulate their currency by 40% or that we are the only 1st world nation that doesn't protect it's workers. NAFTA, CAFTA, GATT, and any like one world government alliance which the free market is spawned from well has pretty much killed our country and we un like Europe, will not do anything to fix the problem !!!
-Rocky
How many people are going to buy house, have 2.5 kids, reliable transportation, on Target wages ??? GEEEZ !!!!
Silly, of course a cashier at Target can't afford to buy a house, have 2.5 kids and reliable transportation. They aren't supposed to! You've hit on the crux of the problem and you don't even see it. An entry level role is not, nor should not, be guaranteed middle class lifestyle in America. "Entry" level means just that. It gets you started. The idea is to start off and then make more as you show your worth and take on more responsibility. THEN you should make enough to increase your lifestyle. And even then, this doesn't give you a right to own a house and have 2.5 kids. You may have to rent. And it may be smaller than you want. But if it is what you can afford then so be it. And how many millions of people in this country have 2.5+ kids and can't afford it? Way, way too many.
This is what's wrong with the UAW. I couldn't have done it better myself, bravo my good man.
Oh, and I have a good friend who works at Target. Makes $60k a year. :shades:
How many people are going to buy house, have 2.5 kids, reliable transportation, on Target wages ??? GEEEZ
Keep telling yourself that Rock. The outlook for 2007 college grads is better than 2006 with more hiring and more pay.
Retail can pay very well. Store managers can make $100k easy with bonus's and Pharmacists all get payed $100k and many get OT. $50-60k for an assistant is very doable. As for entry level, that's just what it is. Retail always has paid low wages for clerks and cashiers. The retail chain my wife works for can't find enough managers and pharmacists.
My wife just hired a married couple that recently graduated and received their pharmacy licenses. They are 24yrs old and will have a combined income of $220k plus overtime (if they chose to work it) along with $40k in signing bonus'. I'm sure they're regretting taking loans for college.
This is what's wrong with the UAW. I couldn't have done it better myself, bravo my good man.
Exactly
I most certainly agree! It also shouldn't guarantee extreme poverty and hardship either. Anybody who works shouldn't have to live in dangerous, filthy conditions either. I would expect an entry-level job to a least get me a modest one-bedroom or studio apartment in a safe clean neighborhood, healthy nutritious food, and access to modest transportation be it the bus, a nice used car, or economical new one.
I make a very decent wage and I still wouldn't consider marriage and especially having kids. It's not economically feasible.
I had just started with IBM for $400 a month. That is $2.30 per hour. My wife was making less than that, but we managed.
Five years latter we were making more money but the prices were also going up.
Sold that house for $27,500 and bought a little larger for $32K
Point is: Sure we can increase the minimum wage to say $15 an hour. So the minimum wage person doesn't have to live in a dangerous place. And shortly there after, prices will sharply rise and that $15 still won't buy or rent much any more. Why? Because those that were working at $15 would demand more and the minimum wage dude is right back at where he was at today's wages. He would still have to live in poverty or with his parents. Of course, if his parents are on a fixed income and HAD enough to live out their lives with some degree of comfort, they will suddenly be SOL and so will minimum wage boy. They will all be looking for a place in the slums.
Then the UAW will think their members suddenly are "entitled" to an equivalent pay raise to $70 and hour, and complain when their dyeing companies out source.
The minimum wage person will still be living in poverty, American based companies will out source or die, and we will enter a recession like we can't even imagine
Kip
Marsha, I think Bush already beat Obama to the punch with a mortgage relief bill.
The main difference is the Republican will bale out the institution, the Democrat will bail out the individual. It all results in an increase in our taxes, which is like death, blah blah blah.
Memo to union flag waivers. Grow up, do what you need to do to take care of your family. America was founded on people doing the hard things to get where they needed to be. I will not be a teet for some lazy midwesterner who's to dumb to change.
Rocky, you bring this up a lot. You also think the Government should do something about it. You need to look around at our college and University systems. At least half ARE GOVERNMENT OWNED AND OPERATED. That means when you borrow money to go to college it is going right back to the government. Big government is not your friend in spite of what Obama and Hillary tell you. Government is the reason Detroit and Michigan are in trouble. They have taxed and regulated businesses and the auto industry into a hole. There is a good reason that companies like VW are looking to states like Alabama to expand. States like Alabama make it worthwhile to build there. The people are happy to have a job that is above entry level Walmart pay. The state of Michigan and the UAW do not court the manufacturers with the attitude of "what can we do to get you to build in our state". I cannot imagine a CEO with half a brain building a factory in CA, Michigan, NY, Illinois or a dozen other over taxed states.
There is one thing that govt does. They give out welfare for the millionaire's/billionaire's. They build stadiums/arenas for the idle rich/leisure class. These folks don't risk their capital to get rewarded, they risk public money/tax revenue. This goes against the NO GOVT interference they champion when handouts are for poor and needy. So where is the so called entrepreneur who is rewarded for risk?
The European thoughs are way off base. We are the number one consumer nation. Japan is number two and Germany follows as number three. In about 2025 China will be number one and we will no longer be the greatest nation on the planet.
Google Honda transmissions and Toyota engine sludge. You will find that they too make major mistakes. For those who were hit in the pocketbook by these issues, buying the same brand is out of the question. In the last 7 years the engineering in autos has surpassed the engineering in the past 70 years. This being said all the autos produced these days are about the same in quality.
However, you need to see if everyone is on board to this being a good idea. China is interested in one metric, JOBS. The fact is that high level communist official own almost everything. These folks don't want to upset the status quo and or anything that many redistribute wealth. So they have subsidize an inefficient steel producer in order to keeps it doors open for example. However, the more efficient steel producer has no subsidy and must liquidate. Those jobs go to China and the consumer doesn't benefit.
Then you have all the multinational. You mistake these as American companies. They are the property of their shareholders and they do whatever it takes to increase shareholder value. They see China as one fifth of the worlds future consumers. India and China will be one third of the worlds futures consumers. These companies tolerate copyrights violations, human rights violations, intellectual property violations, and just about any other contract violation you can think of in China. Its just part of the cost of doing business in China. Thats a quote from Calloway golf CEO. They don't dare upset China/India (Chindia) and hence lose future access to those Chindia consumers.
In conclusion China cares only to make money and stability. Its controlled by high level communist official and their families. They know that if they don't grow the economy of China by double digits each year, an up rising may/will occur. Companies have to tolerate unrighteous indignations as not to upset these rich commy bastards. Is this globalization?
If you say it is so, it is.
Simple.
Regards,
OW
US has chosen a model which aims for the sky - After all, that is what makes US a great country. Unfortunately, it has a downside - You will have the world's top lawyers, investment bankers, hedge fund managers, movie stars, atheletes - and all of them will make billions - But you cannot at the same time expect the blue collared workers to have a house with two car garage.
That is the reality, and one has to face it. Unless you decided to limit the scope of the American dream.
Some seem to think that they are ENTITLED (that word, again) to a home, kids, VCR, Satellite TV, microwave, cell phones, etc...sorry, you don't get them until you can afford them...
The one thing that is hard about life is this...if your skill level if minimal, you simply do not deserve to have all the things that "everybody" has...the unions caused a temporary dream world (that lasted about 40 years) where someone who can't read and could sweep a broom was paid over $20/hour plus benefits...that bubble has been popped...forever...
And people sit there and assert that the floor sweeper is "underpaid" when even minimum wage is too much...some folks think that workers should be paid simply because they show up, whether they work or not...
What is really happening on a macro level is that skilled work will continue to be paid well, but unskilled work, which comprises most unionized labor (no, not the pilots union) will slowly be paid what unskilled labor was always worth, and it ain't $25/hour...
The middle class will NOT disappear, but this country as a whole had better realize that dropping out of school in the 10th grade is not a way to live...what is really changing is that in the 20th century, one could drop out of school, be functionally illiterate, and get a union job even tho you can't read or write...THAT is what is now history...
We have survived with a large uneducated population simply because we had the unskilled work for them to do...as the unskilled work evaporates, and is done by folks with even less education overseas, what must change is our level of education...but that is too hard because that will take effort, and effort from the very people who want to fight the change and stay ignorant...
Change is painful, but change can be good in the long run...after all, how much did the world change when Henry Ford made the horse and buggy and buggy whips obsolete///...there were people like rocky back then who decried the loss of good jobs at stables, and blacksmiths, and buggy whip makers...but life improved and life went on...
What the union member is REALLY fighting is that the last thing they want to do is leave their life of comfort and go back for retraining, or, maybe go back and learn to read and write...all they want is the Jobs Bank, where they sit and get paid for nothing...their assembly jobs are now like the blacksmiths of yesteryear, and they don't want change, but the tsunami of events will force them either to change and learn, or go home and cry like little children...
Our people have become soft, and it is high time they learn that change is a part of life...everyone else sees this, but the UAW and their cheerleaders simply cannot understand why a floor sweeper is not with $40K a year...heck, if they ever make an industrial strength robot sweeper, you will REALLY find out just how skilled a floor sweeper is and how much it is really worth...
The new world order future will have a mass of serfs, a small class of deluxe serfs, and a 1% who owns 99% of the society. This is the aim of globalization.
In the 1970s we had a Janitor at RCA in Anchorage Ak. He was a Teamster like the rest of us. He made a couple bucks less per hour than the technicians. This guy had a PHD in Physics. He liked the janitor job as it gave him lots of time to think and it paid better than teaching at the University. He would read books on break that were way over my head. Funny thing the other janitor got caught robbing a bank in the RCA van.
Kind of what the Bolsheviks had in mind and failed to accomplish. I can see where both sides of the aisle could fit into that World order. I would bet on Putin over Obama getting the upper hand. Especially if Jesse gets his way. :shades:
Does the UAW have offices in Moscow?
All is not lost if you believe in yourself. At the end of the day, you are the only one you control, not the UAW, government or employer. Concentrating on the problem just makes it your own.
Regards,
OW