This Family Education Center, which is open to all of the membership has taken the label of resort. The classical Orwellian lexicon to redefine something good into something bad. Orwell wrote about how language would be manipulated to reduce the ability to ever speak the truth. Over 10,000 UAW members and their families use it yearly. Have you taken, or for that matter has anyone asked any of those who have attended for their take on this?
"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter." -Isaiah 5:20-
I realize that GM made promises to the retirees over the years.
The Workers and retirees have been betrayed by promises the UAW knew were not possible to keep.
Who made the promise? Did they not both go to the negotiation table in good faith? I'm thinking that both parties here failed to see that health care would rise at a level beyond inflation. They failed to see the power the medical lobby, managed care, and drug companies presented in Washington.
The UAW is a failed attempt at Socialism.
Can we then say that the socialist program of "no investment banker left behind" is an enormous success?
Oh, we do this all the time over in Are automobiles a major cause of global warming?. Someone will post a link and then the people behind the link turn out to have a nefarious agenda and that helps detract from the point made. I do it all the time. :shades:
Meanwhile, either Black Lake is either worth $x or it isn't. Doesn't seem exactly kosher for the UAW to be using a low number for the tax value and another for the pension funding.
Another of GM's pension programs, however, saddles the company with a liability of $1.4 billion. These pensions are for its executives.
This is the pension squeeze companies aren't talking about: Even as many reduce, freeze or eliminate pensions for workers -- complaining of the costs -- their executives are building up ever-bigger pensions, causing the companies' financial obligations for them to balloon.
Article was from 2006. GM salarieds/execs no longer have pensions being accrued (right term?)( as of Dec '06). They will get pensions for what they earned but now have to put into 401's, which are no longer matched by GM as of a few months ago. And anyone hired in the last 15 years or so never had pensions, just 401's with match.
Oh, I just looked it up. For new hires after 1992 GM puts 1% of salary into your 401 for your "pension" and did match up to 4% (but no longer).
GM salarieds/execs no longer have pensions being accrued (right term?)
That only effect those whom are yet to get on the plan. Those prior have rights to this pool of money (pension) and the administrator of such a plan have legal obligations. When the stock market goes south, so do the funds within these pension plans. Therefore, they might be deemed underfunded and GM has the responsibility to fund and or wait for market conditions to improve.
I have no knowledge of that executive plan dissolving. Which would have been an option in better times. Just payoff the present value and let each person go off on their own. I bet the money managers (Wall St) wouldn't take kindly to such an idea, since they draw benefit/income from managing the pension fund.
On the next stock market boom, lets see how serious companies are about dissolving defined pension funds. The GOP should have done this for employers and not listened to the Wall St money managers. I most definitely would rather get the present value and do my own investing.
Most plans have a fixed amount set. Such as $50 a month per year of service. They know how many folks are entitled, as well as how many have earned vesting. Then there are provisions for survivors. They then calculate what they need to satisfy the obligations. This is put into simplistic terms, some may have adjustments and or other stipulations. In any case all these things are taken into account and actuarials are made up. The insuring concern looks at these to see if they are over/under funded.
Doesn't seem exactly kosher for the UAW to be using a low number for the tax value and another for the pension funding
I disputed my property assessment this year and got a 10% decrease. Here, in Texas, a group of taxpayers, I think it was five agreed that my home was worth a said amount. I could have taken it to the courts, but I thought it was reasonable.
The pension number is beyond my knowledge and speculating would be an injustice. I'm an excellent cross examiner. Send me to Black Lake and let me give them the third degree. I've done it prior and there was nothing of substance. Just rumor and or ignorance doesn't make the UAW corruption.
It boils down to perception doesn't it? The average working Josephine who isn't union sees what she thinks are fat cats sitting around in the Jobs Bank or refusing to sweep up when the line halts because the union rules prohibit it. That makes her mad. Then she sees her tax monies bailing out the automakers. GM goes through the motions of getting rid of their jets and other obvious displays of waste.
But the UAW sits around, says we've already suffered enough, we're not going to renegotiate the contracts, we don't care how little money folks doing the same job at Honda and Toyota make, and by the way, we have this huge expanse of land complete with a world class golf course, all of which is losing the union money but we're keeping it and here's your raspberry, honey.
Not good PR if the union wants sympathy and support for the upcoming card check-off campaign.
Just rumor and or ignorance doesn't make the UAW corruption.
It is not ignorance except on the part of UAW members. That pension plan that is subsidizing the golf course for UAW members, should be under supervision. If you claim you have an asset in the fund that is not worth what the fiduciary says it is worth that is Fraud. All we are saying is the UAW says it is worth one amount when it is considered part of the Pension fund and another when it comes time to pay property taxes.
My second and more pertinent question is this? How can you say this fancy resort and golf course is an asset to the members? First they have to pay $1000 per year for membership. Then up to $85 for 18 holes of golf plus $15 for a cart. How many UAW members have the time off to Drive 292 miles for a round of golf. This resort is purposely placed a long way from the grunts to keep low life members from using it. The fat cat leaders can go up and hang out as much as they like and call it a seminar or training. Also how many months per year does the course stay open in Northern Michigan? I would say 7 months max. So if you are lucky enough to get one round of golf per month and stay overnight because of the 6 hour drive each way, it will be about $400 plus food.
The UAW leadership may have you fooled into believing that is a wonderful asset for UAW members. It would not fly with me. At least the Alaska Teamsters were honest when they built that massive resort community in Palm Springs (Indian Wells). They did it to make money for the pension fund. If you wanted to come and play golf it was at the going rate. Which was not as expensive as your UAW exclusive resort.
PS That $400 does not include the wife or kids. You have to find someone rich enough to play against.
That only effect those whom are yet to get on the plan. Those prior have rights to this pool of money (pension) and the administrator of such a plan have legal obligations. When the stock market goes south, so do the funds within these pension plans. Therefore, they might be deemed underfunded and GM has the responsibility to fund and or wait for market conditions to improve.
I have no knowledge of that executive plan dissolving. Which would have been an option in better times. Just payoff the present value and let each person go off on their own. I bet the money managers (Wall St) wouldn't take kindly to such an idea, since they draw benefit/income from managing the pension fund.
The GM pension is still funded even though the market is down. If it does drop more I guess it could become severely underfunded but it will go back up. But perhaps I am misinterpreting your statements which is easy to do.
Are you saying you think there is still a pension continuing to accrue for execs at GM? I am confused now on where you were going. The fund is funded, now you want to just give the money to the employees and not wait for them to retire? Why would GM need to do this? Does it somehow save the company? Are you saying GM should stop the pension plan for the UAW members? Perhaps just turn over the money to the union reps? Or cash it out to the members themselves and tell them they are on their own for retirement?
As of 11/24/08
G.M. appears to have enough money in the pension fund to pay its more than 400,000 retirees their benefits for many years — even with the markets swooning around it. That is largely because of the conservative way G.M. has managed the fund recently, and it explains why G.M. has not joined the long list of companies pressing Congress for pension relief.
If you claim you have an asset in the fund that is not worth what the fiduciary says it is worth that is Fraud.
I think they (the UAW) claims that the education center is funded by interest from their strike fund. Where do we get that this is pension money?
Fiduciary is a legal responsibility, and more than likely they are an independent third party. Surely your 401K plan isn't managed by your company and or union? this goes way back to the Teamsters. I don't want to besmirch them, but they have had lots to do about keeping a disinterested third party watching the pension funds.
How can you say this fancy resort and golf course is an asset to the members? Its called summer family scholarships and anyone from any local can apply. About 10,000 members take advantage of this every year. I did and had no problem. Then I've been there during the winter for leadership education. Chaplin's have their week there. Editors have their week there too. It's not La Jolla, but it serves a purpose and the golf course was added later on. Then too I am aware they conduct business with the auto makers from there too. Its rustic and not what your thinking. The millionaire who owned the original lodge prior, let Lucy and Desi use it for their honeymoon. If you go there, don't expect some SPA type resort. Far from it. Its more like back to nature and closest thing I can compare it to is the YMCA of the Rockies, near Estes Park, Colorado.
Which was not as expensive as your UAW exclusive resort.
Your not even close. I've been to that posh resort and its geared to the leisure class/idle rich. So, please spare me this comparison.
Here use this web site and listen to a professional
Well, I am not quite sure what to say, or perhaps more accurately where to start, with regard to this article in the New York Times today on the surprising financial health - at least for now - of the GM pension plan. As the company otherwise founders, the article describes years of responsible, forward thinking stewardship of the pension plan’s funds, including with regard to investments of the plan’s assets. Obviously, as the article points out, with the company itself in grave danger of running out of money, that may not continue for too much longer, but GM’s handling of the pension plan to date is clearly commendable, particularly so in a world in which so many other businesses insist that they cannot possibly carry the risks and expenses of offering a defined benefit plan. But GM’s contrary experience raises more questions than it answers. Is it only a company with a gigantic financial footprint - like a GM - that can handle the long term financial investments and exposure needed to run a defined benefit plan? Or is a well thought out investment strategy and a corporate willingness to actually contribute the money needed to execute it all that is needed, such that other companies - many of whom have abandoned pension plans - could have pulled it off as well, had they been so inclined? Or, finally, does GM’s current predicament and the likelihood that, barring a turnaround of the company’s fortunes, its pension plan will be in trouble as well, show that defined benefit plans are simply impractical at best in modern American economic life, where - as the GM example shows - the length of pension commitments is not concomitant with the likely life span of the company that makes those commitments? http://www.bostonerisalaw.com/archives/cat-pensions.html
Last year, 9,000 members attended classes at the education center and 13,000 rounds of golf were played, including 1,000 donated for charity events and such, Kerson said. UAW members played 4,000 of the rounds, he said.
Who are those 9000 other guests that used the golf course? Probably guests of the UAW leadership if truth is known. Are you saying that does not contribute to the loss. I don't know of many golf courses that can be considered money makers. Does the UAW need a tax write-off? Less than 1% of the UAW members & retirees used the "training" facility last year. Not even 1/2 of one percent played golf on the course they support with their money. You have not made a good argument for owning the facility and especially the golf course.
Gregg Shotwell, a UAW activist, is not troubled to learn that the education center is losing money. "When you are educating and training union members, that's the business of the union. That's never a loss," Shotwell said.
But the golf course is a different story to Shotwell. "We should be running a union -- not a country club," he said.
Both the resort and golf course are held by a UAW-controlled holding corporation called the Union Building Corp, which is a not-for-profit organization that holds real estate for the union, records show.
The golf course is operated by a for-profit corporation called UBG Inc., which was set up for just that purpose, Labor Department records say. The education center, which reportedly has rooms to sleep 400 people, is operated by the for-profit UBE Inc. The union values the center at $27.3 million.
UBE's management of the education center has generated revenue of about $30 million over the past five years -- and net losses of $20.5 million. The operations were hit hard last year by a $5.9-million payment to an employee pension fund. And from 2003 to 2007, revenue at the education center dropped by 18%.
Looks to me like they borrowed from a pension fund to operate the resort.
Think about it. The cost for the UAW member is $1000 per year membership. This is not just a short drive for a round of golf. The place is about 300 miles from Detroit area, where most of the UAW members live. How many times per year would even an avid golfer drive 300 miles each way, for a round of golf? If you want to take your wife or a friend it is a lot more. So it is not really there for the rank and file UAW members. Out of 13,000 rounds of golf played last year only 4000 were by UAW members. This is a resort getaway for the wealthy and UAW leaders that can generate conferences for cronies and friends to attend. I doubt that 10% of the current or retired UAW members have ever set foot on the place. I retiree with a motor home would probably be the most likely user. Of course with the UAW selling him short on health care, he will have to sell the RV and just stay at home. :sick:
Looks to me like they borrowed from a pension fund to operate the resort.
You can't be serious? Perhaps you might suggest that they paid for it from the petty cash payola? There nothing, whatsoever, wrong and or below the table. Your thought process, makes me wonder if you were in Alaska too too long. This not a bridge to no where and a worthwhile undertaking by the UAW. I fully support the leadership. You have never been there. I have been there and think its great and their program is not any kind of indoctrination. They give you facts and both as group/individually you draw your own conclusions.
Audits of both UBE and UBG by Clarence Johnson, a certified public accountant from Royal Oak, said UBE had a negative retained earning of $20.6 million and UBG had a $4.2-million negative retained earning at the end of 2007. The two entities had loans payable to the UAW International worth a total of $24 million.
Aside from the loans, UAW International's financial statements show expenses to the UBE for several conferences and other activities. In 2007 alone, the UAW International paid UBE $3.3 million for services.
Also, the union's executive board is authorized to transfer money to UBE "to help supplement the cost of education activities at the Family Education Center," a past financial statement to members said.
The losses at Black Lake are small compared with the UAW International's overall budget, said Sean McAlinden, an economist and labor expert from the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor. "That's not going to bother them for a while, but I bet it's something that they're working at."
Not sure which facts I posted that you are questioning. Our friend DD is so blinded by UAW leadership he cannot see the truth. Then maybe he is UAW leadership and that would answer the question of why he is covering for them.
I am retired from the UAW staff and live near the Walter and May Reuther Family Education Center on Black Lake in Northeast Michigan.
You can find out about the Center by checking it out on the web.Building started in 1967 and Walter Reuther and his wife May died in a plane crash on a visit to the center in 1970. The public golf course at the Center was opened in 2000.
The UAW pays all expenses for a week long education program for rank and file UAW members and their entire families. it has rooms for about 300 guests. Rank and file members apply for a scholarship to Black Lake through their local unions.
The current financing mechanism is provided by the interest on the UAW strike fund. I frankly do not understand why anyone questions spending membership funds for a member's family to spend a week of vacation/training at a nice place like Black Lake. What is wrong with that or would you rather have the money spent on strike benefits or UAW staff salaries and benefits? I think these criticisms are generated by antipathy to unions or the working class generally. why should ordinary workers get to stay at a nice place and get a discount to play golf at a first class course? Would anyone even question this if an employer did the same for its salaried employees--as many do?
The current worldwide economic difficulties of every auto manufacturer affects their unions but the UAW is not asking for a loan from the federal government to maintain union operations.
To those that suggest that the property should be sold, you may want to know that the Michigan real estate market, particularly resort properties is down somewhat. But in any event, that is up to the UAW leadership and membership. I assure you that the appropriations for the building of the Center and its annual costs have been approved by the UAW membership at every UAW convention. The suggestion that pension funds are somehow diverted to pay for any Center operations is not only untrue but laughable.
Members of the public are encouraged to play golf as it helps pay the expenses. I find it strange that some quarrel with that. It is a great course and might fetch an even higher fee per round if it was located on the western side of northern michigan where many more expensive courses are located.
Our friend DD is so blinded by UAW leadership he cannot see the truth.
Sorry Gary, I'm rank and file, held two different offices years ago. Never ran again, too much work on my plate. I found that neither the company or the union are the evil envisioned and thereby disillusioned in my effort to do something noble. I do charity work to fill that void now. I'm trying to atone for all my past transgressions.
There is no one as blind as he/she who does not open their eyes and or turn on the light.
Or is a well thought out investment strategy and a corporate willingness to actually contribute the money needed to execute it all that is needed, such that other companies - many of whom have abandoned pension plans - could have pulled it off as well, had they been so inclined?
I think he got it right here. GM has both a fudiciary and ethical responsibility to both it's union and non union employees to meet its promises as best it can. It has done an excellent job at this and will continue to do so. AND AGAIN, GM HAS abandoned the defined benefit pensions and is only holding the monies to meet it's past promises which is exactly what I think you think is the right thing to do. For information on how this was done recently:
But it has cost GM big time to do this. Perhaps we would have a different world today if they would have abandoned the pension plan 10 years ago and put the billions into their vehicles. Hey, perhaps they could still do this with the hourly pensions THIS year?
Thank you for your first hand information. And welcome to the forum.
Do you take advantage of your golf course as a retiree? I think the whole thing came to light when it was revealed that the center had lost $23 million over the last 5 years. While cost for training is part of doing business or it should be. I wonder if it is the golf course that is draining the UAW. From the play records it is obvious that more non UAW members use the course than do members by more than two to one.
My main reason in questioning Union expenditures comes from my own Union experience. I watched as Union built a big fancy hospital for the members. Then A large dental clinic and a big office complex. After that a world class recreation center. All those assets were financed with our pension fund. This was all prior to tougher regulations by the Feds. None of the projects made money or any real sense. They were monuments to the Secretary Treasurer Jesse Carr. Now they are all sold and off of our books. Good riddance as they were all a drag with little value to the membership as a whole.
Here is what another Teamster recalls from that era: I was a member of the Teamsters, Local 959, and worked as a Teamster during the TAPS project. Anyone who worked as a union member in the Teamsters was fortunate to have Carr serving as secretary-treasurer because he provided incredible benefits to union members like free dental, free vision, free membership at the Alaska Club, free legal services, etc.
Why isn't anything named after the great legend, Jesse L. Carr?
It's surprising to find no books written documenting the power unions wielded over oilies during the '70s when the Trans-Alaska Pipeline was under construction. Secretary-Treasurer of the Teamsters Local 959, Jesse L. Carr was the most powerful man in Alaska, in the 1970's.
Jesse Carr did as much for Alaska labor as Walter Reuther did for the UAW. They are both gone and their legacy has little meaning in the 21st century. The question for every UAW member to think about is will the UAW survive another 10-20 years? With the current caliber of leadership in the UAW it is doubtful.
I keep up on our Teamster pension fund as it is my retirement. I don't want any funny business being invested in. No investments made over a round of golf by some guy named Madoff. Trust but verify is the advice I give to anyone expecting or receiving a pension. We are near the last as the whole pension process got corrupted by too much government and unscrupulous Corporate managers & Union leaders.
GM HAS abandoned the defined benefit pensions and is only holding the monies to meet it's past promises which is exactly what I think you think is the right thing to do.
I agree with that. I also think they should have dumped the pension system when they had the chance during the 1998 strike. The way I see it is this. GM is currently responsible for a large pension plan. Say it is worth currently $90 billion. The government PBGC says it has to be kept in a certain level of funding or the corporation has to add money to keep it funded. Well is that fair? The company in good faith put money in the pension fund for each employee over the period of years they worked. Now the economy tanks and the banks default on billions of dollars they are holding or should have been holding that were in a pension fund. Now all of a sudden GM or whatever corporation is involved has to put enough money back into that fund to keep it funded at a given level. It seems the corporation takes all the risks and the retiree takes none. With a 401K it is the employee that oversees the fund. They can put it in high risk mutual funds or low interest safe savings. A 401K also passes all that is left following the death of the employee to his heirs. Something many pension plans do not do. If I die tomorrow my wife gets nothing more from my Teamster Pension.
Due to the pension cap imposed by the Federal Government we also opted for a 401K and took some of our wage and invested as a supplement. It is good to have more than one income source with the crooks in government & business today.
I also think they should have dumped the pension system when they had the chance during the 1998 strike.
Please recall my comments earlier about the cost of the 2 month strike vs the cost to the union/workers. They shut down the company and could have continued to for many more months. To allow the strike to continue for months would have put GM out of business. GM did not really have a chance to make any of the changes that they would have liked to.
The GM pension plan does allow pension benefits to be passed on to spouses.
So today I have the best of both worlds in my opinion. We have a defined benefit plan when we retire AND we have 401's(which I have been putting into since '85 or so).
So today I still have a pension coming yet my 401 is crashed. Hopefully by the time I can start getting my pension and use my 401/IRA's they will both be full of money.
i basically think the golf course is mostly pr related issue. kind of like the B3 ceo's and airplane travel.
Exactly! The CEOs flew to Washington on personal jets to beg for our taxpayer money. The union talked up a good line about the poor workers and begged for the same money, while they own a multi-$$million golf course and "training center". No offer of sacrifice, mortgage, or anything else was offered by the union to get the funds. The union would not even agree to have compensation reach parity with competitors until the current contract runs out in future years.
They're all living their continuing lifestyle while you, I, and the rest of the American people try to pay our bills on time and live within our means. But our pockets are being picked by the unions and executives who could not run a company like a business that actually had to be competitive and make money.
Please recall my comments earlier about the cost of the 2 month strike vs the cost to the union/workers. They shut down the company and could have continued to for many more months. To allow the strike to continue for months would have put GM out of business. GM did not really have a chance to make any of the changes that they would have liked to.
Certainly if GM could have made some (probably sensible) business changes in 1998 then they would be much more viable today. As you indicate the union may have had the power to kill the company with this strike. So would you agree that it is primarily the union's choices that put GM in the condition that it finds itself today? - a company with no reserve to weather a significant economic downturn?
To allow the strike to continue for months would have put GM out of business.
I guess I do not understand what was costing them money. They could have laid everyone off. Or they could have gone to the white collars and said you over there start putting on lug nuts. They could have hired people wanting to work. Or just spent the money they were supposedly losing on moving plants out of the country. Wagoner is a loser. He has no business heading up a major corporation. At the time the UAW went on strike GM was not making a killing on SUVs like they should have been. They have not made 5% since Wagoner the wimp took over. Instead of pissing the money away over the last 15 years they should have been shutting every plant that was not making money down and moving South. Either to Mexico or a right to work state. I have NO sympathy for GM what so ever. I feel for individuals that will be hurt by their shutting down. I feel worse for the people that have lost their jobs due to GM being a LOSER company. It is not the guy working at the dealership in LA that is to blame for GM building crap vehicles. Yet he gets all the blame and is first to lose his job. Meanwhile the GM execs and UAW fat cats are drinking cognac and smoking Cuban Cigars. The real losers are the American tax payer that is subsidizing that bunch of worthless bums in Michigan. The Corporate and Union greed in the Big 3 are too blame for their own demise. We the tax payers should not give them a nickel.
But it has cost GM big time to do this. Perhaps we would have a different world today if they would have abandoned the pension plan 10 years ago and put the billions into their vehicles.
I see the defined pension as a thing of the past. Companies don't like it because they are at the mercy of the stock market. When the economy is hurting companies are all of the sudden under funded and more than likely that company is also hurting (with few exceptions like consumer staples). Thus they have problems planning their budget/forecasting. Most have and or doing away with the defined pension and matching more 401K. In this respect they have the fixed cost of those who opt in to the 401K and can plan/forecast.
The health spending account may come into being also. Co pays and other measures haven't curbed the excessive use of medical services, So person may thing twice if that money is coming from their own pocket. If you build up a health spending account with both opt in funding and employer contribution over years. Your more likely to be frugal in its spending if in the end those funds are yours to do with as you please.
These are the routes which many corporations look to implement. This way they contain cost and know more or less their yearly expense as oppose to the stock market cycle. I feel that its well worth discussing these concepts for the UAW as well. Yeah, the GM plans made prudent decisions, but that too may be short lived. Many so called professional money managers, well over 50%, under-perform. Then too many are locked into certain industries and or hampered. One can only guess how Fidelity Select Transportation is doing. I suspect they are sub par at the moment.
I am retired from the UAW staff and live near the Walter and May Reuther Family Education Center on Black Lake in Northeast Michigan.
Pretty country up there. I should also mention that the Family Education Center has a positive impact on that local economy and provides jobs. When folks leave there they take knowledge back to their locals and have an impact on the country as a whole. If you like the scenic route, I would suggest driving next to the northern Lake Michigan. The UP is awesome too. Iron Mountain seemed like a nice little town and a great place to raise a family. I flown into Detroit and spent the night at the airport Double Tree, then too a half day bus drive in. Then too I've drove my Janesville Tahoe, made a trip out of it. My youngest wasn't too keen about the drive. But when he got there, he lit up the basketball court and provide entertainment in the evenings. Many of my UAW brothers and sisters said " they would look for him in the NBA". They invited us to stay another week. Unfortunately, we had only planned one week. Thanks for your input my union/UAW brother
Unfortunate that your 401K has taken a hit. Hope time is on your side and you will recover. If your early retiring you may also have a ERISA payment to hold you over until social security kicks in, usually 62 plus age creep.
In most cases a jointly (not an individual) needs $400,000 in 401K/IRA. If you early retire, the IRS allows the equal monthly withdraws using their spreadsheet. Then you can avoid the 10% penalty. At 400,000 this comes to $2,300 a month, then add ERISA a non earned income until 62ish, and pension another unearned income. The great thing is that your 401K money will be taxed at a lower rate. You want to have no more than $32,000 max ($25,000 individual) coming out your 401K/IRA and thereby your social security won't be taxed. If you go over 50% of your social security begins to be taxed and withdrawing more can bring this to 85% of your social security being taxed.
The triple dip is when you get to 65 and start drawing SS, a pay check if your working, and then at 70 you get the pension to boot. A little known fact is that you can repay the SS benefits and draw am enhanced higher amount at 70ish.
I say go early and be prepared. Don't withdraw it if you wish to change bank/brokerage. Do a trustee to trustee, all the financial institutions have the paper/form to fill out free of charge.
did you ever participate in a union or any other strike?
In 1968 Pacific Telephone CWA members went on strike for two weeks. I went back to construction for those two weeks. I could not afford to be out of work. We got a nickel an hour raise. I went after work and carried a picket sign along with my fellow employees. I quit 2 years later after 9 years and NO retirement to show for those years as a Union worker. RCA hired and moved me to Alaska to get the Long Distance up and working in 1970. We soon became Teamsters. I was very involved including being elected to the E board by my fellow employees. I was in on several contracts with RCA and later AT&T. When I went to work for a small company in the Arctic I was one of the organizers to take that small group into the Teamsters. I was in on every contract for the last 25 years I worked there. I know when to push a company and when not to.
The UAW mentality has not been good for the Domestic auto industry or the country. As a retired Union member I feel more for those that are retired and somewhat helpless in their position. They did have the right and opportunity to get involved when the UAW and GM were negotiating unsustainable contracts over the years. Promising benefits that are funded by future work forces is not right. The UAW and the Big 3 did just that. So now about 70,000 workers are carrying the burden of half a million retirees health care.
Ask yourself, why did Ford just build a state of the art manufacturing facility in Brazil when they would rather have built it in the USA? Simple answer UAW work rules.
DD: If you build up a health spending account with both opt in funding and employer contribution over years. Your more likely to be frugal in its spending if in the end those funds are yours to do with as you please.
I see that as an excellent way to handle health care. What messed up our health care plan was abuse by employees. During the 1970s pipeline boom in Alaska the Teamsters were very powerful. We built a state of the art hospital and dental clinic. All 100% coverage. Our work rules were such that you needed a Dr's excuse if you took off more than a couple days sick leave. So the employee would go see a Dr for a runny nose to get an excuse. In AK a cold was a regular yearly ailment. With a 1000 plus telephone operators we were keeping the Drs busy. When the construction of the pipeline was finished and 1000s of dues paying workers moved back to TX and Louisiana Anchorage went into withdrawals. The mid 1980s were bleak and many Union contract wages were cut drastically to survive. The Teamsters could not maintain the hospital as it was draining our pension and strike funds. So we sold and went to a co-pay plan. Most did not like it but reality, is what it is.
For those that think the Government will offer better health care than your HMO need to do more research. Just two tidbits on Canadian health care. It takes two years for a hip replacement in Canada. That means pain and suffering on the job for those two years or starve. There are more MRI machines in the City of Philadelphia, than the whole country of Canada. Plus a 10 month wait for a maternity room. :sick:
DD: I see the defined pension as a thing of the past. Companies don't like it because they are at the mercy of the stock market.
I agree there also. You can thank the Government regulations for protecting the Pension funds from fraudulent investing by the fiduciaries. The same regulations made the pensions too high of a risk to accept. How often does the Pension Trust Board re-evaluate the fund at GM? Our Pension trust board bases any increase on the health of the fund. COLA is unsustainable if the Trust loses money through no fault of the fiduciaries. Only the government that prints the money can offer a raise when there is no more money to give. In the last two years my pension has only increased by $6 per month. My SS went up $129 this month. More than the the notice I got from them. Maybe Uncle Sam had some left over from the $700 billion giveaway. :shades:
My advice to anyone is stay on the job as long as you can. While DD's $400,000 seems like a lot in a 401k. I would not want to try and get by on $2300 per month.
My advice to anyone is stay on the job as long as you can. While DD's $400,000 seems like a lot in a 401k. I would not want to try and get by on $2300 per month
$2300 is in addition to pension and ERISA. Which would total $2,300 + $700+ $1500 = $4,500 as an example for an early retiree. The $700 would go away at 62 plus age creep and SS would replace it, and you would be at or about $5,000 monthly. This is a typical example of how to pay the least amount of taxes and a smart man would start shifting their 401K/IRA funds into better investments.
Just because your getting $4,500 or $5,000 a month doesn't mean you have to spend and or consume it all. This is where the human factor comes in and discipline is virtue. The UAW and society in general needs to educate folks about the responsible thing to do with their income/investment funding. Its so simple, that I just don't see how folks get into dired straits when it comes to money.
I've also designed/developed a wealth builder plan. One for the masses which would pay into future generations. Instead of the annuity, a perpetuity which given two or three generation would free many from the toil of working for others to pursue more worthwhile meaningfully endeavors.
The union talked up a good line about the poor workers and begged for the same money
While the UAW may support the Big Three in their quest for these loans/bail outs, they aren't asking for taxpayer money. In fact they have been running the international in a prudent fashion. While membership/income have declined they have adjusted to the current conditions.
They're all living their continuing lifestyle while you, I, and the rest of the American people try to pay our bills on time and live within our means.
You fail to mention the positive externalities of unions. The prevailing wage in any give area is calculated from an average. This very average is kept high by high paying employment. This is but one of the benefits that non union folks get from union/UAW folks, there are more. So to envy for the sake of keeping up with the Jones is silly and you bring them down to your level, your not going to make your lot any better.
it's not unusual for a stike to get ugly, personal injuries and physical damage. i wonder if either party was satisfied with the settlement as a result of the strike. it sure seems like the company had a whole lot more to lose than the union. the government wasn't happy to be underwriting all those uinemployment checks, either. the workers probably made up most of their losses by working overtime to catch up on production numbers. i am not sure if either party was unaware of the growing retiree pension/benefit bubble, or were not willing to face it. Wagner is still there, so he didn't just take the money and run.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
You must have listen to the same rush show as I did ;=). The worse thing that the U.S. health care did was go public more worried about dividens then health care. Any thing the Govt. runs is bound to fail. For years the SS was in the black so the Govt. borrowed from peter to pay Paul and every body knows you NEVER borrowe from family because you will never see money. With the Uaw takeing over the health care even though we will use union hospitals we must get BEST deal for are people. The union must hire a health care manager at National level and local level. Just like me I have not attended many meetings do to doing things with family but I will now be a thorn in there side to make sure the buddie system does not work. We but these people in office to take care of ALL of us not the select few. This is a buisness not good old boy's club
i have played golf at the uaw center. it is a great course and i can't break 100.i have been retired up here for 8 years and i play only 3-4 times a year --too busy now that i'm retired and it is a little pricey for my level of ability.
the legacy cost issues are somewhat complex: the lifetime health care packages for uaw retirees were negotiated in the 50's as part of the ongoing treaty of detroit. back then the monthly costs were only about $30 a month.
remember we went to an employer financed health system when truman's attempt for national health care was scrubbed by the republicans as "socialized medicene". stupid stupid stupid look where we are now: health care costs the usa about 14% of gnp versus canada's 7%. and we have 46 million without coveragel same car built in canada by same auto company has an almost $2000 price advantage. that is on big problem for domestic auto companies-but they too fought national health care as part of our failed republican tradition .
just the same the employers made a promise to workers that when they retired they would have health care for life. like 99% of employers who have made that promise, they decided not to fund this cost over the work life of that worker but rather deferred it to retirement age. employers could have set up funded health care trust funds but didn't. thus it is logically and ethically wrong to consider past retiree health care costs as a current cost of operations--but almost everyone does.
OK a bankrupt company can't pay as you go so UAW agreed to VEBAS in 2007. But UAW will never NEVER ever negotiate away a vested benefit. If you can negotiate away health care for a past retire--why not agree to reduce the pension?
i have been all over the web on this UAW black lake golf course issue -trying to give some right wingers the facts. I must say that this site has the most intelligent and fair discussion of the issues. this issue is hot only because of the auto industry bridge loans. wall street, AIG, Bear Stearns etc where we dumped a trillion saw no demands that high salaries (which are about 60% of those industries costs) be reduced as a condition of the gifts of money. Only now does bush and other republicans demand that employees whose costs are but 10% of the product must start spiraling down.
The right wing is bananas on the UAW issue and finds this a perfect opportunity for some good old union bashing. the credit crunch has affected all worldwide auto companies but this country and its repubs are the only ones demanding that hourly workers race to the bottom to the level of non-union transplants.--why are the transplants the standards for fair wages and benefits anyway--and why stop there, how low are the mexican and south korean rates?? soon we can go down to china rates and then finally the repubs may be happy.
and its a two-fer. GET THE UAW!! THe UAW represents everything the Republicans can't stand: the UAW, almost alone, gave us the middle class in the treaty of detroit, the most consistently progressive voice for the common working stiff that has ever existed in the usa, pro-civil rights when it was not easy. anti-war when it was not easy, pro=government regulation of industry and corporate greed when it wasn' t easy
and through its long history the uaw leadership has been among the lowest paid with not a single national officer being either jailed or even charged with corruption.
George Romney once called Reuther "the most dangerous man in America" Nixon's enemy list for special IRS and FBI treatment had names with several sentences of explanation for then UAW President Leonard Woodcock all the list showed: "UAW President- enough said!" Both men were proud of these titles.
rank and file factory workers and their families at an alleged " lavish resort" with golf. very very uppidity next thing you know they will think its ok to demand a voice in their terms and conditions of employment.
rank and file factory workers and their families at an alleged " lavish resort" with golf
Really, how Republican of them. :P
I have in-laws in the UP and it's nice country up there. But it's not exactly easy to get to. If I were UAW at NUMMI, I think I'd resent having a UAW resort like that. Well, not being a golfer, I'd resent it if it were in Fremont too.
I disagree that it's Republican or Democrat in re the idea of an expensive black elephant being paid for by UAW. I personally feel they should unload it for cash infusion to help one of the industries survive that employes their workers.
I do put the picking out of this one aspect on the same low level as the Congress people, enjoying all kinds of benefits from lobbyists and patronage of all sorts, criticizing the management of the B3 flying into DC on jets, private or loaned or leased. It's a trivial by media-attractive item. But I still think the UAW should shed the golf course.
I'll iterate my belief that foreign car makers who have come in once again to take over an industry should help pay the freight for the legacy costs of the union workers for that industry. I see the parallels to VCR production, TV production, etc., after the foreign (Japanese) saw how to make them, made them cheaper, dumped them here in some cases, and eliminated the US industry because of the US's higher cost in most cases. The same logic applies to the auto industry and whether or not you feel the UAW is the major problem there or is ancillary, the undercutting effect is the same.
It's my thinking that some of, some of the UAW retirees in this area with 2 new GM cars in the garage in the home here in Ohio and who knows what in the garage in their home in Florida and in some cases their summer home in Upper Michigan need to pay more of the freight on their retirement and healthcare as do most other people. The Good Times are over.
OK somebody said that Japan doesn't put tariffs on American cars ,they just don't want that crap over there . . . well how come they will not let GM or Ford BUILD cars there ? Yet we let them build cars here and some of us buy this stuff ,not caring. China lets GM build cars there ,and the number one selling car in China is the BUICK. Ford builds cars in South America and Ford does very well there ? On the CFL bulbs ,somebody said the UAW doesn't make bulbs ,true ,but this is ALL connected . . . many here are very critical of the UAW yet jobs continue to disappear in many other U.S. industries including many non-union industries in our country. There might be an environmental reason you say CFL's are not made here in the U.S. but anothor REAL reason is BIG BUSINESS like GE doesn't want to make them here . . . it'll hurt their bottom line if they have to pay a person more then a person in China. GE doesn't even want to make them in Brazil where they closed a plant ! What some of us in the U.S. are doing is killing the U.S. middle class no matter how you cut it. But if you must go buy those CFL bulbs and cars made overseas ,like I said before as long as your job isn't affected.
it's really not that lavish. the setting is great- woods, ponds, water. the buildings are beautiful with soaring roof lines, mostly wood in the interior, with huge windows. the actual rooms are rather spartan. some even have shared bathrooms. food is good, but it is served buffet style. the public restaurant at the public golf club is good but the entree range from $15-25. again i don't call that lavish.
location location. where are most active and retired auto workers located midwest with michigan the winner. still perhaps indiana or illinois would have been good choices. understand when the site was bought, uaw active membership was about 1.6 million. now its about 400,000.
i wasn't for the golf course at the Center. but if one was going to be added it could have been done cheaper. again this was 1998. course cost 6-7 million and has lost money every year. distress sale now would probably get half that back.
Center itself probably will stay in uaw hands to the bitter end- reuther's ashes (Walter and Victor) are scattered there. hard to recover now.
uaw delegates at uaw convention have always approve center improvements and financing from interest on strike fund.
understand when the site was bought, uaw active membership was about 1.6 million. now its about 400,000.
More reason to think about cutting back eh? That perception thing again.
I'm sure the beancounters at GM could justify leasing a fleet of jets but when Joe Public is involved in trying to save an industry, the beneficiaries better be going the extra mile themselves. I think that includes the UAW.
local republican "drain commissioner" sent out press release blasting uaw for challenging its tax asessment: here is the response i sent out to various sites that quoted him:
Cheboygan County’s newly elected drain commissioner, Dennis Lennox, recently issued the first (of an anticipated many) press releases entitled “UAW refuses to pay taxes on lavish lakeside resort“. Lennox campaigned for the drain commissioner job with lawn signs falsely implying that he was the incumbent- a violation of state law. His platform was based on a stated desire for low taxes and getting the state legislature to abolish what he calls the “do nothing” drain commissioner job which pays $600 a year.
For almost 40 years, the UAW has run the Walter and May Reuther Family Education Center for UAW members on the south side of Black Lake in Waverly Township near Onaway. The Center has a first-rate public golf course with a great restaurant and almost 250 rooms for UAW members and their families to attend weeklong training programs. The UAW Center operations have been almost self-contained. The Center has its own fire department, security, road maintenance, water and waste treatment, etc and no school-age children live at the Center.
Property assessment are made by each township on an annual basis and are subject to taxpayer challenge at a local board of review and then before a state tax tribunal. For some years, the UAW has been able to successfully challenge the Waverly Township assessment at the state tax tribunal level. In 2007, the UAW again challenged the township assessment of $13.7 million and the parties settled that matter that same year at $12.3.million.
Lennox says he is astonished that the UAW would argue that the current market value of its property is more than 50% less than its book value. Apparently he has not noticed that property values generally and golf courses in particular have been rapidly declining. The Lennox release also falsely suggests that I represented the UAW in this matter and refused to make any effort to resolve it. However, I have not represented the UAW in any of these assessment disputes.
When the 2007 assessment challenge was brought to my attention, I arranged for a lunch meeting at the Center with the township board, the UAW Center Director, its tax attorney and a high level administrator from UAW Solidarity House in Detroit. The Waverly Township Board declined this offer. (Neither county commissioners nor for that matter, drain commissioners, are involved in property tax assessment process.)
Since this matter had been resolved by the parties, why does the new drain commissioner regurgitate it now almost two years later? Every taxpayer has a right to appeal a tax assessment. The only issue in any assessment dispute is the appraised value of the property in contrast to other comparable properties. There is no discussion of this issue or of past tax tribunal decisions in the Lennox release. You would think a self-proclaimed advocate for low taxes would support any taxpayer’s right to appeal any assessment. The Lennox argument-- that merely appealing a tax assessment amounts to a refusal to pay a fair tax rate is just politically-driven balderdash. Indeed given the fact that the UAW has obtained relief every time it has appealed suggests the question of what is a fair tax assessment favors the UAW. The right wing media is going bananas over the idea that a union can operate a “lavish resort with premier golf” for its members because of the recent $17 billion auto industry loans. But the union-bashing has an obvious logical flaw -- none of this taxpayer money goes to the UAW.
The UAW Center has been good for the community for over 40 years, and its continued UAW ownership should be encouraged. Rumors have circulated for years that the Center, or at least the golf course, are for sale. I hope the UAW realizes that most do not share Mr. Lennox’s views and the UAW hangs on to the property. The UAW has maintained a beautiful, low impact resort operation which strives to preserve the property’s natural environment. The Center’s 145 employees are locals earning a decent living and enjoying the benefits of union representation. Even though the Center is a seasonal employer, the UAW does NOT exercise its right to challenge unemployment benefits when it shuts down over the winter. The UAW Center attracts almost 10,000 well-behaved UAW members and their families annually, who spend their money in the local area. (Some even come back to vacation and retire here!) The facility has also been made available for many public meetings and the UAW has been a generous supporter of community events and programs.
In contrast with some resorts, the UAW does not use foreign workers on temporary work visas. Nor has the UAW asked either the township or county for any subsidy, despite the fact that the Center operations have apparently been a steady drain on the UAW’s declining resources--reportedly requiring a $23 million UAW subsidy over the last 5 years.
The sad irony in all this is that a forced sale now of any of the Center property is almost guaranteed to establish a much lower taxable value with greatly reduced property tax payments. A new owner might also not wish to hire a local workforce at union rates and benefits. How does this help the community?
Perhaps the new township board may wish to pursue a better relationship with the current property owner and one of the county’s largest and best paying employers. If so, I will try to set up another meeting. Regardless, Lennox’s attack on the UAW is stale, devoid of relevant facts, hypocritical, unprincipled, and totally unrelated to his “extensive” duties as drain commissioner.
You seem to be closely linked with the Black Lake center. Yet you say the golf is too rich for you to afford more than 3-4 times a year. So 4000 members got to use the golf course last year out of 13,000 rounds of golf played. That means the loss in keeping the center and golf course going, is really being paid by the UAW for non UAW members. With only 9000 members attending conferences it has a very low occupancy rate. Yet you have high paid Union people maintaining it. Sounds a lot like the Big 3 and the UAW. Slowly going bankrupt because of inefficiencies that no one wants to address. I see no good reason to bail out people with that mindset. Let them die the slow agonizing death they have chosen. Just don't ask me to subsidize them.
PS Wanting to tax the Center on $13 million when the UAW is claiming it is worth $27 million seems a bargain to me. It is just more of the UAW entitlement mentality.
With all of the troubles that the "big 3" are having, I dont see the UAW offering to suspend union-dues for a couple years to aid in doing their part to help the workers thru these tough times of transition..... now that I think of it, I dont see the unions doing much of ANYTHING to help the companies that pay their very existance make it thru these tough times.
I am thinking that the unions do not yet understand the gavity of the situation they are facing.
I just read some of the comments on the UAW resort and it reminded me of when I worked for IBM in Endicott NY where they had their own golf course mostly paid by IBM, greens fees were minimal for employees and retirees. That is until IBM went down hill in the 80's and they sold the course to cut costs. Greens fees sky rocketed for everyone. The whole thing was just a huge perk that was too expensive when the company went through tough times.
Comments
This Family Education Center, which is open to all of the membership has taken the label of resort. The classical Orwellian lexicon to redefine something good into something bad. Orwell wrote about how language would be manipulated to reduce the ability to ever speak the truth. Over 10,000 UAW members and their families use it yearly. Have you taken, or for that matter has anyone asked any of those who have attended for their take on this?
"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter." -Isaiah 5:20-
I realize that GM made promises to the retirees over the years.
The Workers and retirees have been betrayed by promises the UAW knew were not possible to keep.
Who made the promise? Did they not both go to the negotiation table in good faith? I'm thinking that both parties here failed to see that health care would rise at a level beyond inflation. They failed to see the power the medical lobby, managed care, and drug companies presented in Washington.
The UAW is a failed attempt at Socialism.
Can we then say that the socialist program of "no investment banker left behind" is an enormous success?
Oh, we do this all the time over in Are automobiles a major cause of global warming?. Someone will post a link and then the people behind the link turn out to have a nefarious agenda and that helps detract from the point made. I do it all the time. :shades:
Meanwhile, either Black Lake is either worth $x or it isn't. Doesn't seem exactly kosher for the UAW to be using a low number for the tax value and another for the pension funding.
This is the pension squeeze companies aren't talking about: Even as many reduce, freeze or eliminate pensions for workers -- complaining of the costs -- their executives are building up ever-bigger pensions, causing the companies' financial obligations for them to balloon.
Article was from 2006. GM salarieds/execs no longer have pensions being accrued (right term?)( as of Dec '06). They will get pensions for what they earned but now have to put into 401's, which are no longer matched by GM as of a few months ago. And anyone hired in the last 15 years or so never had pensions, just 401's with match.
Oh, I just looked it up. For new hires after 1992 GM puts 1% of salary into your 401 for your "pension" and did match up to 4% (but no longer).
/hint
That only effect those whom are yet to get on the plan. Those prior have rights to this pool of money (pension) and the administrator of such a plan have legal obligations. When the stock market goes south, so do the funds within these pension plans. Therefore, they might be deemed underfunded and GM has the responsibility to fund and or wait for market conditions to improve.
I have no knowledge of that executive plan dissolving. Which would have been an option in better times. Just payoff the present value and let each person go off on their own. I bet the money managers (Wall St) wouldn't take kindly to such an idea, since they draw benefit/income from managing the pension fund.
On the next stock market boom, lets see how serious companies are about dissolving defined pension funds. The GOP should have done this for employers and not listened to the Wall St money managers. I most definitely would rather get the present value and do my own investing.
Most plans have a fixed amount set. Such as $50 a month per year of service. They know how many folks are entitled, as well as how many have earned vesting. Then there are provisions for survivors. They then calculate what they need to satisfy the obligations. This is put into simplistic terms, some may have adjustments and or other stipulations. In any case all these things are taken into account and actuarials are made up. The insuring concern looks at these to see if they are over/under funded.
I disputed my property assessment this year and got a 10% decrease. Here, in Texas, a group of taxpayers, I think it was five agreed that my home was worth a said amount. I could have taken it to the courts, but I thought it was reasonable.
The pension number is beyond my knowledge and speculating would be an injustice. I'm an excellent cross examiner. Send me to Black Lake and let me give them the third degree. I've done it prior and there was nothing of substance. Just rumor and or ignorance doesn't make the UAW corruption.
But the UAW sits around, says we've already suffered enough, we're not going to renegotiate the contracts, we don't care how little money folks doing the same job at Honda and Toyota make, and by the way, we have this huge expanse of land complete with a world class golf course, all of which is losing the union money but we're keeping it and here's your raspberry, honey.
Not good PR if the union wants sympathy and support for the upcoming card check-off campaign.
It is not ignorance except on the part of UAW members. That pension plan that is subsidizing the golf course for UAW members, should be under supervision. If you claim you have an asset in the fund that is not worth what the fiduciary says it is worth that is Fraud. All we are saying is the UAW says it is worth one amount when it is considered part of the Pension fund and another when it comes time to pay property taxes.
My second and more pertinent question is this? How can you say this fancy resort and golf course is an asset to the members? First they have to pay $1000 per year for membership. Then up to $85 for 18 holes of golf plus $15 for a cart. How many UAW members have the time off to Drive 292 miles for a round of golf. This resort is purposely placed a long way from the grunts to keep low life members from using it. The fat cat leaders can go up and hang out as much as they like and call it a seminar or training. Also how many months per year does the course stay open in Northern Michigan? I would say 7 months max. So if you are lucky enough to get one round of golf per month and stay overnight because of the 6 hour drive each way, it will be about $400 plus food.
The UAW leadership may have you fooled into believing that is a wonderful asset for UAW members. It would not fly with me. At least the Alaska Teamsters were honest when they built that massive resort community in Palm Springs (Indian Wells). They did it to make money for the pension fund. If you wanted to come and play golf it was at the going rate. Which was not as expensive as your UAW exclusive resort.
PS
That $400 does not include the wife or kids. You have to find someone rich enough to play against.
That only effect those whom are yet to get on the plan. Those prior have rights to this pool of money (pension) and the administrator of such a plan have legal obligations. When the stock market goes south, so do the funds within these pension plans. Therefore, they might be deemed underfunded and GM has the responsibility to fund and or wait for market conditions to improve.
I have no knowledge of that executive plan dissolving. Which would have been an option in better times. Just payoff the present value and let each person go off on their own. I bet the money managers (Wall St) wouldn't take kindly to such an idea, since they draw benefit/income from managing the pension fund.
The GM pension is still funded even though the market is down. If it does drop more I guess it could become severely underfunded but it will go back up. But perhaps I am misinterpreting your statements which is easy to do.
Are you saying you think there is still a pension continuing to accrue for execs at GM? I am confused now on where you were going. The fund is funded, now you want to just give the money to the employees and not wait for them to retire? Why would GM need to do this? Does it somehow save the company? Are you saying GM should stop the pension plan for the UAW members? Perhaps just turn over the money to the union reps? Or cash it out to the members themselves and tell them they are on their own for retirement?
As of 11/24/08
G.M. appears to have enough money in the pension fund to pay its more than 400,000 retirees their benefits for many years — even with the markets swooning around it. That is largely because of the conservative way G.M. has managed the fund recently, and it explains why G.M. has not joined the long list of companies pressing Congress for pension relief.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/25/business/25auto.html
I think they (the UAW) claims that the education center is funded by interest from their strike fund. Where do we get that this is pension money?
Fiduciary is a legal responsibility, and more than likely they are an independent third party. Surely your 401K plan isn't managed by your company and or union? this goes way back to the Teamsters. I don't want to besmirch them, but they have had lots to do about keeping a disinterested third party watching the pension funds.
How can you say this fancy resort and golf course is an asset to the members?
Its called summer family scholarships and anyone from any local can apply. About 10,000 members take advantage of this every year. I did and had no problem. Then I've been there during the winter for leadership education. Chaplin's have their week there. Editors have their week there too. It's not La Jolla, but it serves a purpose and the golf course was added later on. Then too I am aware they conduct business with the auto makers from there too. Its rustic and not what your thinking. The millionaire who owned the original lodge prior, let Lucy and Desi use it for their honeymoon. If you go there, don't expect some SPA type resort. Far from it. Its more like back to nature and closest thing I can compare it to is the YMCA of the Rockies, near Estes Park, Colorado.
Which was not as expensive as your UAW exclusive resort.
Your not even close. I've been to that posh resort and its geared to the leisure class/idle rich. So, please spare me this comparison.
Well, I am not quite sure what to say, or perhaps more accurately where to start, with regard to this article in the New York Times today on the surprising financial health - at least for now - of the GM pension plan. As the company otherwise founders, the article describes years of responsible, forward thinking stewardship of the pension plan’s funds, including with regard to investments of the plan’s assets. Obviously, as the article points out, with the company itself in grave danger of running out of money, that may not continue for too much longer, but GM’s handling of the pension plan to date is clearly commendable, particularly so in a world in which so many other businesses insist that they cannot possibly carry the risks and expenses of offering a defined benefit plan. But GM’s contrary experience raises more questions than it answers. Is it only a company with a gigantic financial footprint - like a GM - that can handle the long term financial investments and exposure needed to run a defined benefit plan? Or is a well thought out investment strategy and a corporate willingness to actually contribute the money needed to execute it all that is needed, such that other companies - many of whom have abandoned pension plans - could have pulled it off as well, had they been so inclined? Or, finally, does GM’s current predicament and the likelihood that, barring a turnaround of the company’s fortunes, its pension plan will be in trouble as well, show that defined benefit plans are simply impractical at best in modern American economic life, where - as the GM example shows - the length of pension commitments is not concomitant with the likely life span of the company that makes those commitments?
http://www.bostonerisalaw.com/archives/cat-pensions.html
Who are those 9000 other guests that used the golf course? Probably guests of the UAW leadership if truth is known. Are you saying that does not contribute to the loss. I don't know of many golf courses that can be considered money makers. Does the UAW need a tax write-off? Less than 1% of the UAW members & retirees used the "training" facility last year. Not even 1/2 of one percent played golf on the course they support with their money. You have not made a good argument for owning the facility and especially the golf course.
Gregg Shotwell, a UAW activist, is not troubled to learn that the education center is losing money. "When you are educating and training union members, that's the business of the union. That's never a loss," Shotwell said.
But the golf course is a different story to Shotwell. "We should be running a union -- not a country club," he said.
Both the resort and golf course are held by a UAW-controlled holding corporation called the Union Building Corp, which is a not-for-profit organization that holds real estate for the union, records show.
The golf course is operated by a for-profit corporation called UBG Inc., which was set up for just that purpose, Labor Department records say. The education center, which reportedly has rooms to sleep 400 people, is operated by the for-profit UBE Inc. The union values the center at $27.3 million.
UBE's management of the education center has generated revenue of about $30 million over the past five years -- and net losses of $20.5 million. The operations were hit hard last year by a $5.9-million payment to an employee pension fund. And from 2003 to 2007, revenue at the education center dropped by 18%.
Looks to me like they borrowed from a pension fund to operate the resort.
You can't be serious? Perhaps you might suggest that they paid for it from the petty cash payola? There nothing, whatsoever, wrong and or below the table. Your thought process, makes me wonder if you were in Alaska too too long. This not a bridge to no where and a worthwhile undertaking by the UAW. I fully support the leadership. You have never been there. I have been there and think its great and their program is not any kind of indoctrination. They give you facts and both as group/individually you draw your own conclusions.
Audits of both UBE and UBG by Clarence Johnson, a certified public
accountant from Royal Oak, said UBE had a negative retained earning of
$20.6 million and UBG had a $4.2-million negative retained earning at
the end of 2007. The two entities had loans payable to the UAW
International worth a total of $24 million.
Aside from the loans, UAW International's financial statements show
expenses to the UBE for several conferences and other activities. In
2007 alone, the UAW International paid UBE $3.3 million for services.
Also, the union's executive board is authorized to transfer money to
UBE "to help supplement the cost of education activities at the Family
Education Center," a past financial statement to members said.
The losses at Black Lake are small compared with the UAW
International's overall budget, said Sean McAlinden, an economist and
labor expert from the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor.
"That's not going to bother them for a while, but I bet it's something
that they're working at."
http://finance.google.com/group/google.finance.14194/browse_thread/thread/d07695- aaa9c498da
You can find out about the Center by checking it out on the web.Building started in 1967 and Walter Reuther and his wife May died in a plane crash on a visit to the center in 1970. The public golf course at the Center was opened in 2000.
The UAW pays all expenses for a week long education program for rank and file UAW members and their entire families. it has rooms for about 300 guests. Rank and file members apply for a scholarship to Black Lake through their local unions.
The current financing mechanism is provided by the interest on the UAW strike fund. I frankly do not understand why anyone questions spending membership funds for a member's family to spend a week of vacation/training at a nice place like Black Lake. What is wrong with that or would you rather have the money spent on strike benefits or UAW staff salaries and benefits? I think these criticisms are generated by antipathy to unions or the working class generally. why should ordinary workers get to stay at a nice place and get a discount to play golf at a first class course? Would anyone even question this if an employer did the same for its salaried employees--as many do?
The current worldwide economic difficulties of every auto manufacturer affects their unions but the UAW is not asking for a loan from the federal government to maintain union operations.
To those that suggest that the property should be sold, you may want to know that the Michigan real estate market, particularly resort properties is down somewhat. But in any event, that is up to the UAW leadership and membership. I assure you that the appropriations for the building of the Center and its annual costs have been approved by the UAW membership at every UAW convention. The suggestion that pension funds are somehow diverted to pay for any Center operations is not only untrue but laughable.
Members of the public are encouraged to play golf as it helps pay the expenses. I find it strange that some quarrel with that. It is a great course and might fetch an even higher fee per round if it was located on the western side of northern michigan where many more expensive courses are located.
Sorry Gary,
I'm rank and file, held two different offices years ago. Never ran again, too much work on my plate. I found that neither the company or the union are the evil envisioned and thereby disillusioned in my effort to do something noble. I do charity work to fill that void now. I'm trying to atone for all my past transgressions.
There is no one as blind as he/she who does not open their eyes and or turn on the light.
kind of like the B3 ceo's and airplane travel.
I think he got it right here. GM has both a fudiciary and ethical responsibility to both it's union and non union employees to meet its promises as best it can. It has done an excellent job at this and will continue to do so. AND AGAIN, GM HAS abandoned the defined benefit pensions and is only holding the monies to meet it's past promises which is exactly what I think you think is the right thing to do. For information on how this was done recently:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/25/business/25auto.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2
But it has cost GM big time to do this. Perhaps we would have a different world today if they would have abandoned the pension plan 10 years ago and put the billions into their vehicles. Hey, perhaps they could still do this with the hourly pensions THIS year?
Do you take advantage of your golf course as a retiree? I think the whole thing came to light when it was revealed that the center had lost $23 million over the last 5 years. While cost for training is part of doing business or it should be. I wonder if it is the golf course that is draining the UAW. From the play records it is obvious that more non UAW members use the course than do members by more than two to one.
My main reason in questioning Union expenditures comes from my own Union experience. I watched as Union built a big fancy hospital for the members. Then A large dental clinic and a big office complex. After that a world class recreation center. All those assets were financed with our pension fund. This was all prior to tougher regulations by the Feds. None of the projects made money or any real sense. They were monuments to the Secretary Treasurer Jesse Carr. Now they are all sold and off of our books. Good riddance as they were all a drag with little value to the membership as a whole.
Here is what another Teamster recalls from that era:
I was a member of the Teamsters, Local 959, and worked as a Teamster during the TAPS project. Anyone who worked as a union member in the Teamsters was fortunate to have Carr serving as secretary-treasurer because he provided incredible benefits to union members like free dental, free vision, free membership at the Alaska Club, free legal services, etc.
Why isn't anything named after the great legend, Jesse L. Carr?
It's surprising to find no books written documenting the power unions wielded over oilies during the '70s when the Trans-Alaska Pipeline was under construction. Secretary-Treasurer of the Teamsters Local 959, Jesse L. Carr was the most powerful man in Alaska, in the 1970's.
Jesse Carr did as much for Alaska labor as Walter Reuther did for the UAW. They are both gone and their legacy has little meaning in the 21st century. The question for every UAW member to think about is will the UAW survive another 10-20 years? With the current caliber of leadership in the UAW it is doubtful.
I keep up on our Teamster pension fund as it is my retirement. I don't want any funny business being invested in. No investments made over a round of golf by some guy named Madoff. Trust but verify is the advice I give to anyone expecting or receiving a pension. We are near the last as the whole pension process got corrupted by too much government and unscrupulous Corporate managers & Union leaders.
I agree with that. I also think they should have dumped the pension system when they had the chance during the 1998 strike. The way I see it is this. GM is currently responsible for a large pension plan. Say it is worth currently $90 billion. The government PBGC says it has to be kept in a certain level of funding or the corporation has to add money to keep it funded. Well is that fair? The company in good faith put money in the pension fund for each employee over the period of years they worked. Now the economy tanks and the banks default on billions of dollars they are holding or should have been holding that were in a pension fund. Now all of a sudden GM or whatever corporation is involved has to put enough money back into that fund to keep it funded at a given level. It seems the corporation takes all the risks and the retiree takes none. With a 401K it is the employee that oversees the fund. They can put it in high risk mutual funds or low interest safe savings. A 401K also passes all that is left following the death of the employee to his heirs. Something many pension plans do not do. If I die tomorrow my wife gets nothing more from my Teamster Pension.
Due to the pension cap imposed by the Federal Government we also opted for a 401K and took some of our wage and invested as a supplement. It is good to have more than one income source with the crooks in government & business today.
I also think they should have dumped the pension system when they had the chance during the 1998 strike.
Please recall my comments earlier about the cost of the 2 month strike vs the cost to the union/workers. They shut down the company and could have continued to for many more months. To allow the strike to continue for months would have put GM out of business. GM did not really have a chance to make any of the changes that they would have liked to.
So today I have the best of both worlds in my opinion. We have a defined benefit plan when we retire AND we have 401's(which I have been putting into since '85 or so).
So today I still have a pension coming yet my 401 is crashed. Hopefully by the time I can start getting my pension and use my 401/IRA's they will both be full of money.
kind of like the B3 ceo's and airplane travel.
Exactly! The CEOs flew to Washington on personal jets to beg for our taxpayer money. The union talked up a good line about the poor workers and begged for the same money, while they own a multi-$$million golf course and "training center". No offer of sacrifice, mortgage, or anything else was offered by the union to get the funds. The union would not even agree to have compensation reach parity with competitors until the current contract runs out in future years.
They're all living their continuing lifestyle while you, I, and the rest of the American people try to pay our bills on time and live within our means. But our pockets are being picked by the unions and executives who could not run a company like a business that actually had to be competitive and make money.
Certainly if GM could have made some (probably sensible) business changes in 1998 then they would be much more viable today. As you indicate the union may have had the power to kill the company with this strike. So would you agree that it is primarily the union's choices that put GM in the condition that it finds itself today? - a company with no reserve to weather a significant economic downturn?
I guess I do not understand what was costing them money. They could have laid everyone off. Or they could have gone to the white collars and said you over there start putting on lug nuts. They could have hired people wanting to work. Or just spent the money they were supposedly losing on moving plants out of the country. Wagoner is a loser. He has no business heading up a major corporation. At the time the UAW went on strike GM was not making a killing on SUVs like they should have been. They have not made 5% since Wagoner the wimp took over. Instead of pissing the money away over the last 15 years they should have been shutting every plant that was not making money down and moving South. Either to Mexico or a right to work state. I have NO sympathy for GM what so ever. I feel for individuals that will be hurt by their shutting down. I feel worse for the people that have lost their jobs due to GM being a LOSER company. It is not the guy working at the dealership in LA that is to blame for GM building crap vehicles. Yet he gets all the blame and is first to lose his job. Meanwhile the GM execs and UAW fat cats are drinking cognac and smoking Cuban Cigars. The real losers are the American tax payer that is subsidizing that bunch of worthless bums in Michigan. The Corporate and Union greed in the Big 3 are too blame for their own demise. We the tax payers should not give them a nickel.
it is not some kind of dispassionate game.
I see the defined pension as a thing of the past. Companies don't like it because they are at the mercy of the stock market. When the economy is hurting companies are all of the sudden under funded and more than likely that company is also hurting (with few exceptions like consumer staples). Thus they have problems planning their budget/forecasting. Most have and or doing away with the defined pension and matching more 401K. In this respect they have the fixed cost of those who opt in to the 401K and can plan/forecast.
The health spending account may come into being also. Co pays and other measures haven't curbed the excessive use of medical services, So person may thing twice if that money is coming from their own pocket. If you build up a health spending account with both opt in funding and employer contribution over years. Your more likely to be frugal in its spending if in the end those funds are yours to do with as you please.
These are the routes which many corporations look to implement. This way they contain cost and know more or less their yearly expense as oppose to the stock market cycle. I feel that its well worth discussing these concepts for the UAW as well. Yeah, the GM plans made prudent decisions, but that too may be short lived. Many so called professional money managers, well over 50%, under-perform. Then too many are locked into certain industries and or hampered. One can only guess how Fidelity Select Transportation is doing. I suspect they are sub par at the moment.
Pretty country up there. I should also mention that the Family Education Center has a positive impact on that local economy and provides jobs. When folks leave there they take knowledge back to their locals and have an impact on the country as a whole. If you like the scenic route, I would suggest driving next to the northern Lake Michigan. The UP is awesome too. Iron Mountain seemed like a nice little town and a great place to raise a family. I flown into Detroit and spent the night at the airport Double Tree, then too a half day bus drive in. Then too I've drove my Janesville Tahoe, made a trip out of it. My youngest wasn't too keen about the drive. But when he got there, he lit up the basketball court and provide entertainment in the evenings. Many of my UAW brothers and sisters said " they would look for him in the NBA". They invited us to stay another week. Unfortunately, we had only planned one week.
Thanks for your input my union/UAW brother
Unfortunate that your 401K has taken a hit. Hope time is on your side and you will recover. If your early retiring you may also have a ERISA payment to hold you over until social security kicks in, usually 62 plus age creep.
In most cases a jointly (not an individual) needs $400,000 in 401K/IRA. If you early retire, the IRS allows the equal monthly withdraws using their spreadsheet. Then you can avoid the 10% penalty. At 400,000 this comes to $2,300 a month, then add ERISA a non earned income until 62ish, and pension another unearned income. The great thing is that your 401K money will be taxed at a lower rate. You want to have no more than $32,000 max ($25,000 individual) coming out your 401K/IRA and thereby your social security won't be taxed. If you go over 50% of your social security begins to be taxed and withdrawing more can bring this to 85% of your social security being taxed.
The triple dip is when you get to 65 and start drawing SS, a pay check if your working, and then at 70 you get the pension to boot. A little known fact is that you can repay the SS benefits and draw am enhanced higher amount at 70ish.
I say go early and be prepared. Don't withdraw it if you wish to change bank/brokerage. Do a trustee to trustee, all the financial institutions have the paper/form to fill out free of charge.
I'm rank and file, held two different offices years ago."
DD you are extremely knowledgeable for a "Worker Bee".
What do you do for a living? Are you on the assembly line? What does your job entail?
Thanks,
Kip
In 1968 Pacific Telephone CWA members went on strike for two weeks. I went back to construction for those two weeks. I could not afford to be out of work. We got a nickel an hour raise. I went after work and carried a picket sign along with my fellow employees. I quit 2 years later after 9 years and NO retirement to show for those years as a Union worker. RCA hired and moved me to Alaska to get the Long Distance up and working in 1970. We soon became Teamsters. I was very involved including being elected to the E board by my fellow employees. I was in on several contracts with RCA and later AT&T. When I went to work for a small company in the Arctic I was one of the organizers to take that small group into the Teamsters. I was in on every contract for the last 25 years I worked there. I know when to push a company and when not to.
The UAW mentality has not been good for the Domestic auto industry or the country. As a retired Union member I feel more for those that are retired and somewhat helpless in their position. They did have the right and opportunity to get involved when the UAW and GM were negotiating unsustainable contracts over the years. Promising benefits that are funded by future work forces is not right. The UAW and the Big 3 did just that. So now about 70,000 workers are carrying the burden of half a million retirees health care.
Ask yourself, why did Ford just build a state of the art manufacturing facility in Brazil when they would rather have built it in the USA? Simple answer UAW work rules.
I see that as an excellent way to handle health care. What messed up our health care plan was abuse by employees. During the 1970s pipeline boom in Alaska the Teamsters were very powerful. We built a state of the art hospital and dental clinic. All 100% coverage. Our work rules were such that you needed a Dr's excuse if you took off more than a couple days sick leave. So the employee would go see a Dr for a runny nose to get an excuse. In AK a cold was a regular yearly ailment. With a 1000 plus telephone operators we were keeping the Drs busy. When the construction of the pipeline was finished and 1000s of dues paying workers moved back to TX and Louisiana Anchorage went into withdrawals. The mid 1980s were bleak and many Union contract wages were cut drastically to survive. The Teamsters could not maintain the hospital as it was draining our pension and strike funds. So we sold and went to a co-pay plan. Most did not like it but reality, is what it is.
For those that think the Government will offer better health care than your HMO need to do more research. Just two tidbits on Canadian health care. It takes two years for a hip replacement in Canada. That means pain and suffering on the job for those two years or starve. There are more MRI machines in the City of Philadelphia, than the whole country of Canada. Plus a 10 month wait for a maternity room. :sick:
DD: I see the defined pension as a thing of the past. Companies don't like it because they are at the mercy of the stock market.
I agree there also. You can thank the Government regulations for protecting the Pension funds from fraudulent investing by the fiduciaries. The same regulations made the pensions too high of a risk to accept. How often does the Pension Trust Board re-evaluate the fund at GM? Our Pension trust board bases any increase on the health of the fund. COLA is unsustainable if the Trust loses money through no fault of the fiduciaries. Only the government that prints the money can offer a raise when there is no more money to give. In the last two years my pension has only increased by $6 per month. My SS went up $129 this month. More than the the notice I got from them. Maybe Uncle Sam had some left over from the $700 billion giveaway. :shades:
My advice to anyone is stay on the job as long as you can. While DD's $400,000 seems like a lot in a 401k. I would not want to try and get by on $2300 per month.
http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/publications/fiduciaryresponsibility.html
$2300 is in addition to pension and ERISA. Which would total $2,300 + $700+ $1500 = $4,500 as an example for an early retiree. The $700 would go away at 62 plus age creep and SS would replace it, and you would be at or about $5,000 monthly. This is a typical example of how to pay the least amount of taxes and a smart man would start shifting their 401K/IRA funds into better investments.
Just because your getting $4,500 or $5,000 a month doesn't mean you have to spend and or consume it all. This is where the human factor comes in and discipline is virtue. The UAW and society in general needs to educate folks about the responsible thing to do with their income/investment funding. Its so simple, that I just don't see how folks get into dired straits when it comes to money.
I've also designed/developed a wealth builder plan. One for the masses which would pay into future generations. Instead of the annuity, a perpetuity which given two or three generation would free many from the toil of working for others to pursue more worthwhile meaningfully endeavors.
While the UAW may support the Big Three in their quest for these loans/bail outs, they aren't asking for taxpayer money. In fact they have been running the international in a prudent fashion. While membership/income have declined they have adjusted to the current conditions.
They're all living their continuing lifestyle while you, I, and the rest of the American people try to pay our bills on time and live within our means.
You fail to mention the positive externalities of unions. The prevailing wage in any give area is calculated from an average. This very average is kept high by high paying employment. This is but one of the benefits that non union folks get from union/UAW folks, there are more. So to envy for the sake of keeping up with the Jones is silly and you bring them down to your level, your not going to make your lot any better.
i wonder if either party was satisfied with the settlement as a result of the strike.
it sure seems like the company had a whole lot more to lose than the union.
the government wasn't happy to be underwriting all those uinemployment checks, either.
the workers probably made up most of their losses by working overtime to catch up on production numbers.
i am not sure if either party was unaware of the growing retiree pension/benefit bubble, or were not willing to face it.
Wagner is still there, so he didn't just take the money and run.
With the Uaw takeing over the health care even though we will use union hospitals we must get BEST deal for are people. The union must hire a health care manager at National level and local level. Just like me I have not attended many meetings do to doing things with family but I will now be a thorn in there side to make sure the buddie system does not work. We but these people in office to take care of ALL of us not the select few. This is a buisness not good old boy's club
the legacy cost issues are somewhat complex: the lifetime health care packages for uaw retirees were negotiated in the 50's as part of the ongoing treaty of detroit. back then the monthly costs were only about $30 a month.
remember we went to an employer financed health system when truman's attempt for national health care was scrubbed by the republicans as "socialized medicene". stupid stupid stupid look where we are now: health care costs the usa about 14% of gnp versus canada's 7%. and we have 46 million without coveragel same car built in canada by same auto company has an almost $2000 price advantage. that is on big problem for domestic auto companies-but they too fought national health care as part of our failed republican tradition .
just the same the employers made a promise to workers that when they retired they would have health care for life. like 99% of employers who have made that promise, they decided not to fund this cost over the work life of that worker but rather deferred it to retirement age. employers could have set up funded health care trust funds but didn't. thus it is logically and ethically wrong to consider past retiree health care costs as a current cost of operations--but almost everyone does.
OK a bankrupt company can't pay as you go so UAW agreed to VEBAS in 2007. But UAW will never NEVER ever negotiate away a vested benefit. If you can negotiate away health care for a past retire--why not agree to reduce the pension?
this issue is hot only because of the auto industry bridge loans. wall street, AIG, Bear Stearns etc where we dumped a trillion saw no demands that high salaries (which are about 60% of those industries costs) be reduced as a condition of the gifts of money. Only now does bush and other republicans demand that employees whose costs are but 10% of the product must start spiraling down.
The right wing is bananas on the UAW issue and finds this a perfect opportunity for some good old union bashing. the credit crunch has affected all worldwide auto companies but this country and its repubs are the only ones demanding that hourly workers race to the bottom to the level of non-union transplants.--why are the transplants the standards for fair wages and benefits anyway--and why stop there, how low are the mexican and south korean rates?? soon we can go down to china rates and then finally the repubs may be happy.
and its a two-fer. GET THE UAW!! THe UAW represents everything the Republicans can't stand: the UAW, almost alone, gave us the middle class in the treaty of detroit, the most consistently progressive voice for the common working stiff that has ever existed in the usa, pro-civil rights when it was not easy. anti-war when it was not easy, pro=government regulation of industry and corporate greed when it wasn' t easy
and through its long history the uaw leadership has been among the lowest paid with not a single national officer being either jailed or even charged with corruption.
George Romney once called Reuther "the most dangerous man in America" Nixon's enemy list for special IRS and FBI treatment had names with several sentences of explanation for then UAW President Leonard Woodcock all the list
showed: "UAW President- enough said!" Both men were proud of these titles.
rank and file factory workers and their families at an alleged " lavish resort" with golf. very very uppidity next thing you know they will think its ok to demand a voice in their terms and conditions of employment.
Really, how Republican of them. :P
I have in-laws in the UP and it's nice country up there. But it's not exactly easy to get to. If I were UAW at NUMMI, I think I'd resent having a UAW resort like that. Well, not being a golfer, I'd resent it if it were in Fremont too.
I do put the picking out of this one aspect on the same low level as the Congress people, enjoying all kinds of benefits from lobbyists and patronage of all sorts, criticizing the management of the B3 flying into DC on jets, private or loaned or leased. It's a trivial by media-attractive item. But I still think the UAW should shed the golf course.
I'll iterate my belief that foreign car makers who have come in once again to take over an industry should help pay the freight for the legacy costs of the union workers for that industry. I see the parallels to VCR production, TV production, etc., after the foreign (Japanese) saw how to make them, made them cheaper, dumped them here in some cases, and eliminated the US industry because of the US's higher cost in most cases. The same logic applies to the auto industry and whether or not you feel the UAW is the major problem there or is ancillary, the undercutting effect is the same.
It's my thinking that some of, some of the UAW retirees in this area with 2 new GM cars in the garage in the home here in Ohio and who knows what in the garage in their home in Florida and in some cases their summer home in Upper Michigan need to pay more of the freight on their retirement and healthcare as do most other people. The Good Times are over.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Yet we let them build cars here and some of us buy this stuff ,not caring.
China lets GM build cars there ,and the number one selling car in China is the BUICK.
Ford builds cars in South America and Ford does very well there ?
On the CFL bulbs ,somebody said the UAW doesn't make bulbs ,true ,but this is ALL connected . . . many here are very critical of the UAW yet jobs continue to disappear in many other U.S. industries including many non-union industries in our country.
There might be an environmental reason you say CFL's are not made here in the U.S. but anothor REAL reason is BIG BUSINESS like GE doesn't want to make them here . . . it'll hurt their bottom line if they have to pay a person more then a person in China.
GE doesn't even want to make them in Brazil where they closed a plant !
What some of us in the U.S. are doing is killing the U.S. middle class no matter how you cut it.
But if you must go buy those CFL bulbs and cars made overseas ,like I said before as long as your job isn't affected.
it's really not that lavish. the setting is great- woods, ponds, water. the buildings are beautiful with soaring roof lines, mostly wood in the interior, with huge windows. the actual rooms are rather spartan. some even have shared bathrooms. food is good, but it is served buffet style. the public restaurant at the public golf club is good but the entree range from $15-25. again i don't call that lavish.
location location. where are most active and retired auto workers located midwest with michigan the winner. still perhaps indiana or illinois would have been good choices. understand when the site was bought, uaw active membership was about 1.6 million. now its about 400,000.
i wasn't for the golf course at the Center. but if one was going to be added it could have been done cheaper. again this was 1998. course cost 6-7 million and has lost money every year. distress sale now would probably get half that back.
Center itself probably will stay in uaw hands to the bitter end- reuther's ashes (Walter and Victor) are scattered there. hard to recover now.
uaw delegates at uaw convention have always approve center improvements and financing from interest on strike fund.
More reason to think about cutting back eh? That perception thing again.
I'm sure the beancounters at GM could justify leasing a fleet of jets but when Joe Public is involved in trying to save an industry, the beneficiaries better be going the extra mile themselves. I think that includes the UAW.
Cheboygan County’s newly elected drain commissioner, Dennis Lennox, recently issued the first (of an anticipated many) press releases entitled “UAW refuses to pay taxes on lavish lakeside resort“. Lennox campaigned for the drain commissioner job with lawn signs falsely implying that he was the incumbent- a violation of state law. His platform was based on a stated desire for low taxes and getting the state legislature to abolish what he calls the “do nothing” drain commissioner job which pays $600 a year.
For almost 40 years, the UAW has run the Walter and May Reuther Family Education Center for UAW members on the south side of Black Lake in Waverly Township near Onaway. The Center has a first-rate public golf course with a great restaurant and almost 250 rooms for UAW members and their families to attend weeklong training programs. The UAW Center operations have been almost self-contained. The Center has its own fire department, security, road maintenance, water and waste treatment, etc and no school-age children live at the Center.
Property assessment are made by each township on an annual basis and are subject to taxpayer challenge at a local board of review and then before a state tax tribunal. For some years, the UAW has been able to successfully challenge the Waverly Township assessment at the state tax tribunal level. In 2007, the UAW again challenged the township assessment of $13.7 million and the parties settled that matter that same year at $12.3.million.
Lennox says he is astonished that the UAW would argue that the current market value of its property is more than 50% less than its book value. Apparently he has not noticed that property values generally and golf courses in particular have been rapidly declining. The Lennox release also falsely suggests that I represented the UAW in this matter and refused to make any effort to resolve it. However, I have not represented the UAW in any of these assessment disputes.
When the 2007 assessment challenge was brought to my attention, I arranged for a lunch meeting at the Center with the township board, the UAW Center Director, its tax attorney and a high level administrator from UAW Solidarity House in Detroit. The Waverly Township Board declined this offer. (Neither county commissioners nor for that matter, drain commissioners, are involved in property tax assessment process.)
Since this matter had been resolved by the parties, why does the new drain commissioner regurgitate it now almost two years later? Every taxpayer has a right to appeal a tax assessment. The only issue in any assessment dispute is the appraised value of the property in contrast to other comparable properties. There is no discussion of this issue or of past tax tribunal decisions in the Lennox release. You would think a self-proclaimed advocate for low taxes would support any taxpayer’s right to appeal any assessment. The Lennox argument-- that merely appealing a tax assessment amounts to a refusal to pay a fair tax rate is just politically-driven balderdash. Indeed given the fact that the UAW has obtained relief every time it has appealed suggests the question of what is a fair tax assessment favors the UAW. The right wing media is going bananas over the idea that a union can operate a “lavish resort with premier golf” for its members because of the recent $17 billion auto industry loans. But the union-bashing has an obvious logical flaw -- none of this taxpayer money goes to the UAW.
The UAW Center has been good for the community for over 40 years, and its continued UAW ownership should be encouraged. Rumors have circulated for years that the Center, or at least the golf course, are for sale. I hope the UAW realizes that most do not share Mr. Lennox’s views and the UAW hangs on to the property. The UAW has maintained a beautiful, low impact resort operation which strives to preserve the property’s natural environment. The Center’s 145 employees are locals earning a decent living and enjoying the benefits of union representation. Even though the Center is a seasonal employer, the UAW does NOT exercise its right to challenge unemployment benefits when it shuts down over the winter. The UAW Center attracts almost 10,000 well-behaved UAW members and their families annually, who spend their money in the local area. (Some even come back to vacation and retire here!) The facility has also been made available for many public meetings and the UAW has been a generous supporter of community events and programs.
In contrast with some resorts, the UAW does not use foreign workers on temporary work visas. Nor has the UAW asked either the township or county for any subsidy, despite the fact that the Center operations have apparently been a steady drain on the UAW’s declining resources--reportedly requiring a $23 million UAW subsidy over the last 5 years.
The sad irony in all this is that a forced sale now of any of the Center property is almost guaranteed to establish a much lower taxable value with greatly reduced property tax payments. A new owner might also not wish to hire a local workforce at union rates and benefits. How does this help the community?
Perhaps the new township board may wish to pursue a better relationship with the current property owner and one of the county’s largest and best paying employers. If so, I will try to set up another meeting. Regardless, Lennox’s attack on the UAW is stale, devoid of relevant facts, hypocritical, unprincipled, and totally unrelated to his “extensive” duties as drain commissioner.
PS
Wanting to tax the Center on $13 million when the UAW is claiming it is worth $27 million seems a bargain to me. It is just more of the UAW entitlement mentality.
I am thinking that the unions do not yet understand the gavity of the situation they are facing.