Might want to do some self-treatment first - and some research. Also, it is not soft ride; it is severe roll/wallow/bounce. The intial ride due to brand new L640 shocks was improved, just as with the new L040's. However, the improvements did not last. See posts on this and other websites re: front end problems for many concuring with me. The roll/wallow soon returned as it is more than just the shocks. The suspension is poorly designed, as confirmed by professional reviewers and many owners. Hyundai has replaced shocks on 2006, 2007 and some 2008 models in hopes it would eliminate the problems, but it did not. So, Hyundai even admits it is a problem or they would not be replacing shocks three times on cars with less than 15,000 miles. Regardless, the issue on the Azera and the Genesis is poor suspension design or parts quality or both. See October 2008 Automobile Magazine and Car & Driver re: the Genesis suspension. Also, look back at Edmunds and other reviews of the 2006/2007 Azera. The roll/wallow they noted gets worse as shocks age. I hope they can figure it out on the Genesis as it appears to be an excellent car in concept.
Take issues if you like, but Carolina Bob is correct.
Ours started doing the same thing at that mileage, but I waited to see if others were experiencing the same problem before reporting it, and sure enough, Carolina Bob is experiencing the same problem also! At a little over 1000 miles, it is getting worse, and I expect by 5K miles, the car will feel just a bad as it has twice before. These 640 shocks are the third set of factory shocks. So now both of us are reporting problems with the newest 640 shocks.
He also has experinced similar problems with the new Genesis. Why do you think it is impossible for shocks to be bad after only 250 miles when brand several new Genesis have bad shocks right off the showroom floor? He has tested three of them, so he should know. He intended on buying one, but not if they are no better than his Azera. He also quoted comments by magazine reporters who were saying the same things.
We must face the fact that Hyundai does not know how to properly engineer a suspension system and that their quality control of shocks is seriously poor.
Just thought it worth mentioning that although the Azera problems listed here may be valid, the shocks and the suspension on the Genesis are completely different than those found on the Azera.
Matter of fact, the multilink setup on the Genesis is aluminum. The Azera has a basic steel setup. Also, these cars are built on two different chassis.
I just thought that if the materials and the setup were different, that it was worth noting that the Azera problems that are being reported here were not sure to be transferred to the new model.
Having driven the V6 and V8 Genesis and all Azera models since the vehicles introduction (2006-2009), there is a marked difference between the handling of the two, and there appears to be very little in common.
I totally agree that at 15,000 miles you could very well feel a degredation of ride. But, not at 250 miles. I realize the Santa Fe is a different vehicle, but I have 12,500 miles- and last week, they gave new a new 2008 SF loaner, and I couldn't tell any difference in ride quality.
I ride in my wife's 06 Sonata about once every 2 months or so, and can't feel any difference in shocks from 0 miles to 35K miles. Now I do feel a difference in the tires as they wear. I think a new set at 45K will make it feel brand new again, not that worn tires make it ride or handle any worse.
Yes, do the Azera research and you will find a lot of complaints. Thing is, 90% of them are are by the 1 and only Caralinabob spouting off the same thing on forum after forum.
"Yes, do the Azera research and you will find a lot of complaints. Thing is, 90% of them are by the 1 and only Caralinabob spouting off the same thing on forum after forum."
That is not an accurate statement at all. His name is spelled Carolinabob.
There are many many others "spouting off" as you say about the terrible suspension issues with some Azeras. Many Azera owners have had their shocks replaced three times, and still are having problems.
Don't you wonder why Hyundai is paying for those replacement shocks if there is nothing wrong with their older shocks? Of course, not everyone is dissatisfied with their shocks, but many many are.
If you go back to the over 1,000 postings on the Azera Front End site, you will see many, many people complained long before I did. Also, I did not post on the topic until after hundreds of postings by others. If you go to Hyundai-Forums.com and look at their topics for Azera front end or suspension, you will also see hundreds of complaints. Also, mine began late in the game on that site as well. Furthermore, you need to read the 2006 reviews by Edmunds Editors and Chris Wardlaw at autobytel.com on the Azera. I wish I had. As regards the Genesis, please read the reviews in October issues of Car and Driver and Automobile Magazine. It may be a different suspension and different materials, but the experts say it is not designed correctly. Get your information correct before you attack someone for expressing their opinion and reporting the findings of the experts. It is fine to say you disagree and your Sonata is great, but that really is apples and potatoes.
Last year, I wrote to Lexus and told them why I did not purchase one of their cars. Within 2-3 weeks, they called me and we had a nice chat about what I would like to see on their cars. They also sent me brochures on the LS and GS models. I have also communicated with other manufacturers and been cordially treated. But, NOT Hyundai! 08/26 sent a letter to CEO with what I would like to see on the Genesis. Most suggestions were things on the Azera, but not on the Genesis and moving some features from the 4.6 to another package on the 3.8. 09/05 letter stamped received in President's office. 10/02 letter stamped received in Consumer Affairs Dept. 11/21 letter stamped received in Legal Dept. 11/21 letter returned to me with a cover letter from assistant general counsel.
Their letter states: "As a matter of course, all correspondence received by HMA containing suggestions for design changes, new products, marketing strategies, advertising slogans or the like, is forwarded to the Legal Department for reply. Please be advised that it is against the policy of HMA to accept unsolicited ideas from persons outside the Hyundai organization. In accordance with this policy, we are returning your correspondence with this letter. Please consider this letter as HMA's response to your August 26, 2008 correspondence."
This is why Hyundai will not suceed as a luxury car manufacturer and will ultimately have problems becoming a major factor in the American market.
the Genesis already provides one with all that they want in a luxo rig. I'm not looking so that person is not me, but, I think that an honest look right here on Edmunds will find you a bunch that like the Genesis sedan as it is. I have already read their reviews, so don't try and squiggle out of this one like Bret Favre in the grasp of Patrick Kerney.
Hyundai is doing well and they just choose not to waste their time...I...I...I mean spend their valuable time responding to people who want something else in their vehicles. Thing of the twisty-turtle-ees a large Company could be turning while they try and keep the production wheel turning? Business gotta keep moving, padres!
The topic of this forum is: Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai? So I am going to focus on what defines a "luxury market".
Sorry, but apparently you don't know what's in a true luxury buyer's mind. In a "true" luxury buyer I don't mean one who wants just the leather seats and all the gadgets. A true luxury buyer wants to be pampered, they want to be treated like royalty and it's the detail that counts. If you still don't get what I am saying go to your local Hyundai dealer's maintenance department first then make another trip to your local Lexus dealer's. You probably still won't get the idea of the whole "luxury ownership experience" thingy but at least you'll get an idea of what I am talking about.
So Hyundai would be wasting time if they take a customer's opinion/advice seriously? Well if that's the case I guess Lexus has just wasted A LOT of its time...
Business doesn't get going if Hyundai takes a customer's opinion/advice seriously? Well if that's the case I guess Lexus never got going since 1989...
He also has experinced similar problems with the new Genesis. Why do you think it is impossible for shocks to be bad after only 250 miles when brand several new Genesis have bad shocks right off the showroom floor? He has tested three of them, so he should know. He intended on buying one, but not if they are no better than his Azera. He also quoted comments by magazine reporters who were saying the same things.
The 250 miles he experienced was on the Azera, and not the Genesis. The thing is, he keeps bringing up the same two reviews over and over and over and over, on almost every single of his post...
He claims he's doing everyone a favor so those in the market or those looking to purchase one can take into consideration. Except most people in the market for a car doesn't just evaluate the suspension alone, but the whole car, the whole execution. Has he mention anything else from those reviews? Absolutely not.
By the way, based on my seat time in the Genesis and talking with others, there was nothing wrong with the suspension on the Genesis. Of course it's not a BMW like Car and Driver, for example, wanted to be, and it's not meant to be. Hyundai designed the car to have a balanced ride, a comfortable and a quite ride. If you are looking for firm handling to near perfection, then this isn't it. Look to the Germans. For your everyday driving needs, the Genesis performs how a luxury sedan is meant to perform.
We must face the fact that Hyundai does not know how to properly engineer a suspension system and that their quality control of shocks is seriously poor.
And you can prove this how?
Bottom line, you'd have to hand it to Hyundai for a job well done on the Genesis. Are there room for improvements? Of course. And with every new entry/model coming out from Hyundai, it gets better and better.
second that emotion, joe97. If I conjured up a wild hair and decided to go luxury, it would be the Genesis sedan. Not some overly-hyped up Toyo-luxo-schnertiness like Lexus-Schmex-us.
There is some validity to the perspective you present. There are those who just expect the pampering, the extra perks, to be part a parcel of the luxury experience. Even those of us who don't live the luxury lifestyle on a daily basis like to experience it on an occasional basis. Of course, all of us like to simply be treated well. Too many of us who really could not afford the luxury lifestyle availed ourselves of it anyway.
I think we are probably going to turn away from that a bit, and not just in the luxury car market. Hyundai may be well positioned to capitalize on that. Some of us would be content to experience the "luxo" part during the vast majority of the time we spend with a car, simply driving it through our day, and we are willing to give up the latte at the dealership.
Hyundai would do well to listen to their buyers though.
At least don't insult us. Because of Hyundai's treatment, both the Genesis and Santa Fe are off my list for 2010/2011 vechicles. I will be looking at Toyota RAV4, Subaru Forrester and Acura, Lexus, Infiniti models. I took a chance on the Azera and to some degree lost. Will not repeat the mistake with the Genesis.
How did Hyundai insult you? Louis and Matt were talking about mostly dealership experience, which I would agree to the extent, as some Hyundai dealerships need to pick it up, especially having a Genesis in the showroom. Still, most dealerships are pretty good in terms of the overall customer experience.
You, on the other hand, sent a letter but didn't get the response you were looking for. If that was an insult, that's a bit of sensitivity on your end. Also, the events which took place between the Lexus and Hyundai couldn't be any different. As with all automakers, they reserve the right not to share with you (or anyone else outside of the organization) about their future products, that's why they can't respond to the letter the way you wanted. The Lexus was following-up with you on your purchase decision.
Hyundai dealers could kick it up a bit. I don't think it is absolutely necessary for them to do so. Their assault on the luxury market is on price point and feature content, not dealer experience. Many have said they will not be taken seriously unless they up the dealer experience. Everything seems to indicate that is just not how Hyundai is thinking. I'm not convinced that Hyundai is going after the dyed in the wool luxury buyer to steal them away from other luxo brands.
Hyundai didn't insult you. They've got business to attend to. If they responded to everyone's cries for better ideas in their cars they'd be holding up the production line.
Hyundai has occasional trouble with their own employees doing that. I don't see a glaring weakness in the Genesis sedan, or the hot new Genesis Coupe. Do you'all?
Good point. It's a learning experience and learning curve for Hyundai, just like how far they've come over the past decade or so. I'm sure they're aware of the further improvements which needed to be made on the dealership end, but they are also aware converts from MB to Hyundai (or even a luxury brand down the line) is hard to come by. There maybe a few here and there, but the number is little. Heck, even established brands like Lexus still have trouble getting the Germans.
i agree dealer service is important for success in the car market, but not just for luxury sales. In today's very competitive car market, with prices slashed to the bone, automakers need every advantage they can get. And a big one is exceptional customer service. For example, a few years ago I "fired" the Hyundai dealer where I bought two cars because their service had declined to the point it was unbearable to me. No lattes involved, just general indifference and even incompetence. I switched to a dealer that is actually closer to me, and have had excellent service from them since. Interestingly, that first dealer just went out of business last Friday (actually several dealerships were shut down by the same owner). But I would have no qualms buying a Genesis and having it serviced by the other dealership, even though the physical plant is pretty utilitarian (although there is a fireplace in the customer lounge!).
:P Read my post without biais, if that is possible. It was not what they said, but the tone. That is why I quoted it.
Regardless, this is my last post on any Hyundai site. For those who have not experienced problems with your Azeras or Genesis', congratulations. However, it appears many will not admit to problems or just don't understand how a luxury car is supposed to perform - in all categories. Some people will never admit they made a bad decision, but I am willing to admit it. BTW, the reviews on Edmunds are generally completed within a couple of months of purchasing the ca; too early for problems to have surfaced. :P
it appears many will not admit to problems or just don't understand how a luxury car is supposed to perform - in all categories
So why don't you educate us exactly what these problems are, and how a luxury car is supposed to perform - in all categories, instead of side-stepping the responses posed to you (except for posting the same excerpt time after time)?
I am guessing you're going to come across the issue with a similar Lexus (for example) if you insisit the Genesis has serious problems and can't perform like a luxury car.
"I'm not convinced that Hyundai is going after the dyed in the wool luxury buyer to steal them away from other luxo brands."
Mattandi - I agree. Pricing for the Genesis starts around $30k. Edmunds.com lists 95 vehicles for sale in the $25-35k price range and another 40 vehicles in the $35-45k range (ok, a lot of these are "duplicates" in that they list both the 08 and 09 models of some vehicles but you get the idea). With the value and features the Genesis offers almost any of the above are good prospects and is where I suspect the sales are coming from.
Why place so much emphasis on the " dealership experience " anyway. My 2 year old Azera ( 19K miles ) has been to the dealer 3 times - for oil changes which took 1/2 hour ( I did it once myself and won't make that mistake again ). IMO, if the car is reliable, one shouldn't worry too much about whether the dealer has latte or just plain joe - 'cause you won't be spending that much time there.
I'm tire kicking and a dealer touted free car washes to me the other day. I pointed to my Subaru that's has its protective coat of winter gray on the lower body panels and said that's why I'm looking mostly at silver cars. They don't show the dirt. I'm paying for that kind of stuff whether I use it or not.
He also touted the car's reliability to me and I bit my tongue about seeing that the service department waiting room was full.
Loaners are nice, and with them, you don't need lattes or loaners or net access.
Unless a dealer has a hand wash or all-cloth wash, I ask them to skip it as they can do more harm than good with the "scouring brushes". But it does come in handy and saves a few bucks, especially in winter when it's too cold to wash the car in my driveway and I want to keep the salt off the car. A reason to buy a car there? No.
Loaners are nice if a car has to be kept overnight--which has been so rare for me over the past 10 years or so that it's again not a reason to buy or not buy a car from a particular dealer. But I like the idea they are available if I need them. More important to me is a dealer who will cheerfully give me a lift home or to the office if I request it. And the net access is nice for those 30 minute oil change appointments (the most frequent kind of service), since I can be productive while I wait (unless I decide to chew the fat with a sales rep about their new models...).
I am sure that all the people waiting for their trusty Subarus were there for scheduled maintenance.
Actually it was a Honda dealer. And I bit my tongue about exploding AC compressors too, lol.
I do my own oil changes, but yeah, net access for the quick stuff would be nice. Rides to the office are ok, but you have to get back to the dealer and sometimes that's a pain.
If you pay a premium for a Genesis, how hard is it to give the owner an Accent for the day while the 15k service is being done?
Why place so much emphasis on the " dealership experience " anyway.
Like I said, you don't understand why people buy luxury brands like BMW, MB and Lexus (not like there is anything wrong with that). People buying those cars because they want the totally luxury ownership experience, not just cars with luxury equipments. How many times do I have to express that... :confuse:
I know some people will say that I don't give a darn because I just want a nice car with all the luxurious goodies like gadgets and leather seats. Well, if that's the case then good for you because you'll have more choices than the true luxury buyers. However since the title of this thread is, and I'll point out again:
Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?
I felt it's important to let people know what does luxury market mean to the traditional luxury buyers, ie the MB, BMW and Lexus owners.
Maybe the dealer figures someone who drives a luxury car would be put off by offering them "only" an Accent. Anyway, for a 15k service (1 hour max) I'd rather wait at the dealer, and use their free wireless Internet, drink their beverages, watch their TV, or check out the new models. For a 30k or 60k service, I like the lift home (can arrange to get a ride back from someone in the family.
The Hyundai dealer I bought 2 cars from used to have round-trip shuttle service, which was nice because they would take me downtown to my office and pick me up again in the afternoon. I'd save parking fees. Then they dropped that service, and also their competence declined, so I said good-bye in favor of a dealership closer to home.
Sorry, but apparently you don't know what's in a true luxury buyer's mind. In a "true" luxury buyer I don't mean one who wants just the leather seats and all the gadgets. A true luxury buyer wants to be pampered, they want to be treated like royalty and it's the detail that counts.
Then please tell me what market the Genesis is in?
And just because YOU want to spend lots of money to be pampered like a spoiled child doesn't mean everyone does. I rather pocket the money and skip whatever it is Lexus does to or for you.
According to Edmund's website (in the future models section), the Santa Fe is due for a "refresh" for 2010. I am thinking of buying a '09 in the spring, but I wonder if anyone has any info on this refresh (ie. specific changes) and/or if I should wait till the fall and get a new 2010? I'd hate to buy an '09 then a few months later see some further improvements on styling, etc on the '10. Thanks for your replies!
Then please tell me what market the Genesis is in?
Large sedan market like the Buick Lucerne, Pontiac G8, Toyota Avalon, Nissan Maxima, Chrysler 300C and even Hyundai's own Azera. Oh and by the way don't give me that FWD vs. RWD lecture because simply the general buying public don't really care about it. This a Hyundai, a large car and more luxurious than its competitors, that's all. Can the Genesis hang with its luxury competitors like the 5er, E and GS purely based on the car itself? I would think so (I test drove one before). However, would it be a player in the luxury market? Not a chance if it carries the Hyundai badge.
I rather pocket the money and skip whatever it is Lexus does to or for you.
YOU, sir, does not represent the luxury buyers and you know what, there are A LOT of them out there besides me who want the total luxury ownership experience. Those people, sir, have different priorities when it comes to buying a luxury car and they, sir, ARE THE CORE LUXURY MARKET.
Maybe we can set aside the product for a minute and talk some more about what the total experience is. After all, I can go to Costco and buy a Mont Blanc pen but that's not a shop in a Ritz Carlton. (Hey, it was a luxo item 25 years ago).
Is it a fancy showroom with classical music. Concierge service? Free maintenance for four years? Leather lounge chairs in the service waiting room? Loaners or free car pickup and delivery? A hand wash with every service?
I wonder if we can get any hint as to what is in store for the 2010 Santa Fe from the Sonata refresh for 2009. If so, then we can expect tweaks to the front and rear styling (but not to the overall exterior design, as that is pricey), a revamped dash/interior, and tweaks to the engines. Maybe Hyundai will retire the old 2.7L V6 and put the revised-for-2009 3.3L motor with 249 horses in as standard and offer the 3.8L from the Azera as an option?
If you think sipping Monte Blanc at your front porch is the same as sipping Monte Blanc at a Ritz Carlton penthouse with an ocean view then well, you don't have to read any further...
See my point? It's not the product I am trying to point out here, it's the experience.
What's the "experience" then you asked...
It's everything you mentioned: giant showroom inside a stand-alone maintenance facility, loaner car for any kind of service as long as one requests it, free espresso (the good kind) and snacks, leather sofa, free wash with every service PLUS:
Heh, I was referring to my old Mont Blanc fountain pen which has long been overshadowed in the luxo field by other brands. Oops, guess it's a Montblanc. It's been idling so long in a drawer around here I forgot how they spell it.
And it still doesn't work as well as a $1.59 Bic Gel. A Visconti probably doesn't either. :shades:
The only time I stayed at a Ritz Carlton, I had a nice view of the Pentagon City shopping complex.
Another question is: what are those perks worth to you, and others contemplating buying a luxury car? If they are "priceless", as in the Master Card commercials, then you'll buy a Lexus no matter how good the Genesis is and no matter how much it costs. But what if a dollar value could be attached to them? For example, the dollar value to me of reserved parking in Philly, Atlanta, and Miami is $0. The value of benes when visiting top resorts and hotels is very nearly $0. Exclusive clubs and associations? Again pretty close to $0. Getting treated like "royalty" when I bring my car in for service and having free espresso and leather sofas available at service centers is not important to me, as long as I receive professional, competent service--which I do get from my Hyundai dealer.
How much are they worth to you? $5000? $10,000? More?
How are you so sure what a luxury buyer is? I own a Lexus and I'm purchasing a Genesis. I can certainly tell you that I have gotten miserable treatment at Lexus, BMW et al.... It has nothing to do with the make... You wouldn't believe the garbage I had to put up with when I leased the Lexus... Does the local Hyundai dealer subject me to the same dealer antics? SURE! but I'm paying thousands less... What do you have to say to that? I'm a "luxury" buyer and I consider the Genesis a luxury car....
With respect, how did you become the spokesperson for all luxury buyers? Have you surveyed them all? Honestly, aren't you speaking for yourself and a segment of that market? I only write this because you come across as if you have a truer concept of what constitutes a luxury buyer than others. If I'm mistaken, my apologies.
Personally, it isn't all that important if my service department luxuriates me. I'm hardly ever there. I'm in my car most every day, so that's what matters. What I want from a service department is reliable, honest, and good quality service. I'm probably there for only an hour a year.
So, yes, if Hyundai offers a product comparable to one costing thousands more, I'd give them a shot, especially if longer term reviews of the new Genesis are positive. If I were to be bothered by the appearance and amenities of the local dealer's service department, then I'd give my daughter $20 to take it to service for me. She'd be thrilled and I'd be sitting on a better quality leather sofa right in the comfort of my own living room.
A couple of years ago, I loathed the thought of buying a Hyundai, but no longer. They've come a long, long way imo.
Unfortunately, the closest Hyundai dealer doesn't have my trust in the quality, reliable service arena. However, they've been sold to the biggest local dealer which is expanding to a second location. I'll keep my ears and eyes open as to how the new owner does. If all checks out, I'll consider the Genesis a lot more.
And, by the way, I've heard quite a few complaints about BMW and Lexus dealers in my area as well over the years. I'd wager that overall service at more mainstream luxury dealers might well be better than the typical Hyundai dealer, but there are exceptions both ways.
One blind tasting group preferred some cheap bottle of wine until the labels were disclosed. Then they all switched over to the Dom Perignon, even though they had just rated it at the bottom of the wine flight they had just sampled.
It'd be fun to strip the badges off a Genesis and a few luxury marques and have a focus group rate them on luxury.
With respect, how did you become the spokesperson for all luxury buyers?
I didn't.
I just want to provide a different opinion from a difference perspective (I personally own a luxury brand vehicle and most of my friends are luxury brand vehicle owners range from Porsche to Acura) to paint a complete picture of the topic. Which is, may I repeat, Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?
I just don't think all arguments will be heard if there are only current Hyundai owners/supporters discussing about whether or not Hyundai can be competitive in the luxury market.
Steve, you still didn't get what I was trying to come across...
In my opinion the Genesis is fully capable to hang with its competitors like the GS, 5er and E-class. It is the "total luxury ownership experience" that's lacking for it to compete in the luxury market (which is the topic of this thread). If the topic is something like: For the car only, is the Genesis good enough to compete with the GS, 5er and E then you won't get an argument from me.
So based on that, your wine-tasting example is totally irrelevant to the topic.
umm...the topic of this thread is "Is there Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?" To me, that means that this topic is about the cars involved. I can answer simply the question of what this thread is about.
Yes, there is room in the luxury market for Hyundai, and they've proved it by producing a very competent RWD large, luxo sedan called the Genesis.
Period.
You seem to want to follow your own wild hair off in to LA-LA land and talk about the entire experience, including the dealership experience. BTW, are you from L.A.?
Comments
The intial ride due to brand new L640 shocks was improved, just as with the new L040's. However, the improvements did not last. See posts on this and other websites re: front end problems for many concuring with me.
The roll/wallow soon returned as it is more than just the shocks. The suspension is poorly designed, as confirmed by professional reviewers and many owners. Hyundai has replaced shocks on 2006, 2007 and some 2008 models in hopes it would eliminate the problems, but it did not. So, Hyundai even admits it is a problem or they would not be replacing shocks three times on cars with less than 15,000 miles.
Regardless, the issue on the Azera and the Genesis is poor suspension design or parts quality or both. See October 2008 Automobile Magazine and Car & Driver re: the Genesis suspension. Also, look back at Edmunds and other reviews of the 2006/2007 Azera. The roll/wallow they noted gets worse as shocks age.
I hope they can figure it out on the Genesis as it appears to be an excellent car in concept.
Ours started doing the same thing at that mileage, but I waited to see if others
were experiencing the same problem before reporting it, and sure enough,
Carolina Bob is experiencing the same problem also!
At a little over 1000 miles, it is getting worse, and I expect by 5K miles, the car will feel
just a bad as it has twice before. These 640 shocks are the third set of factory shocks.
So now both of us are reporting problems with the newest 640 shocks.
He also has experinced similar problems with the new Genesis.
Why do you think it is impossible for shocks to be bad after only 250 miles when
brand several new Genesis have bad shocks right off the showroom floor?
He has tested three of them, so he should know. He intended on buying one,
but not if they are no better than his Azera.
He also quoted comments by magazine reporters who were saying the same things.
We must face the fact that Hyundai does not know how to properly engineer a
suspension system and that their quality control of shocks is seriously poor.
Matter of fact, the multilink setup on the Genesis is aluminum. The Azera has a basic steel setup. Also, these cars are built on two different chassis.
I just thought that if the materials and the setup were different, that it was worth noting that the Azera problems that are being reported here were not sure to be transferred to the new model.
Having driven the V6 and V8 Genesis and all Azera models since the vehicles introduction (2006-2009), there is a marked difference between the handling of the two, and there appears to be very little in common.
I realize the Santa Fe is a different vehicle, but I have 12,500 miles- and last week, they gave new a new 2008 SF loaner, and I couldn't tell any difference in ride quality.
Yes, do the Azera research and you will find a lot of complaints. Thing is, 90% of them are are by the 1 and only Caralinabob spouting off the same thing on forum after forum.
are by the 1 and only Caralinabob spouting off the same thing on forum after forum."
That is not an accurate statement at all. His name is spelled Carolinabob.
There are many many others "spouting off" as you say about
the terrible suspension issues with some Azeras.
Many Azera owners have had their shocks replaced three times, and still are having problems.
Don't you wonder why Hyundai is paying for those replacement
shocks if there is nothing wrong with their older shocks?
Of course, not everyone is dissatisfied with their shocks, but many many are.
If you go to Hyundai-Forums.com and look at their topics for Azera front end or suspension, you will also see hundreds of complaints. Also, mine began late in the game on that site as well.
Furthermore, you need to read the 2006 reviews by Edmunds Editors and Chris Wardlaw at autobytel.com on the Azera. I wish I had.
As regards the Genesis, please read the reviews in October issues of Car and Driver and Automobile Magazine. It may be a different suspension and different materials, but the experts say it is not designed correctly.
Get your information correct before you attack someone for expressing their opinion and reporting the findings of the experts. It is fine to say you disagree and your Sonata is great, but that really is apples and potatoes.
I have also communicated with other manufacturers and been cordially treated.
But, NOT Hyundai!
08/26 sent a letter to CEO with what I would like to see on the Genesis. Most suggestions were things on the Azera, but not on the Genesis and moving some features from the 4.6 to another package on the 3.8.
09/05 letter stamped received in President's office.
10/02 letter stamped received in Consumer Affairs Dept.
11/21 letter stamped received in Legal Dept.
11/21 letter returned to me with a cover letter from assistant general counsel.
Their letter states: "As a matter of course, all correspondence received by HMA containing suggestions for design changes, new products, marketing strategies, advertising slogans or the like, is forwarded to the Legal Department for reply. Please be advised that it is against the policy of HMA to accept unsolicited ideas from persons outside the Hyundai organization. In accordance with this policy, we are returning your correspondence with this letter. Please consider this letter as HMA's response to your August 26, 2008 correspondence."
This is why Hyundai will not suceed as a luxury car manufacturer and will ultimately have problems becoming a major factor in the American market.
Hershey used to say "don't send us unsolicited ideas." Now they have a more enlightened policy.
Making a car with all the luxury features but without the luxury treatment to your customers does not make you a competitor in the luxury car market.
Period.
louiswei
Hyundai is doing well and they just choose not to waste their time...I...I...I mean spend their valuable time responding to people who want something else in their vehicles. Thing of the twisty-turtle-ees a large Company could be turning while they try and keep the production wheel turning? Business gotta keep moving, padres!
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Sorry, but apparently you don't know what's in a true luxury buyer's mind. In a "true" luxury buyer I don't mean one who wants just the leather seats and all the gadgets. A true luxury buyer wants to be pampered, they want to be treated like royalty and it's the detail that counts. If you still don't get what I am saying go to your local Hyundai dealer's maintenance department first then make another trip to your local Lexus dealer's. You probably still won't get the idea of the whole "luxury ownership experience" thingy but at least you'll get an idea of what I am talking about.
So Hyundai would be wasting time if they take a customer's opinion/advice seriously? Well if that's the case I guess Lexus has just wasted A LOT of its time...
Business doesn't get going if Hyundai takes a customer's opinion/advice seriously? Well if that's the case I guess Lexus never got going since 1989...
:confuse:
Why do you think it is impossible for shocks to be bad after only 250 miles when
brand several new Genesis have bad shocks right off the showroom floor?
He has tested three of them, so he should know. He intended on buying one,
but not if they are no better than his Azera.
He also quoted comments by magazine reporters who were saying the same things.
The 250 miles he experienced was on the Azera, and not the Genesis. The thing is, he keeps bringing up the same two reviews over and over and over and over, on almost every single of his post...
He claims he's doing everyone a favor so those in the market or those looking to purchase one can take into consideration. Except most people in the market for a car doesn't just evaluate the suspension alone, but the whole car, the whole execution. Has he mention anything else from those reviews? Absolutely not.
By the way, based on my seat time in the Genesis and talking with others, there was nothing wrong with the suspension on the Genesis. Of course it's not a BMW like Car and Driver, for example, wanted to be, and it's not meant to be. Hyundai designed the car to have a balanced ride, a comfortable and a quite ride. If you are looking for firm handling to near perfection, then this isn't it. Look to the Germans. For your everyday driving needs, the Genesis performs how a luxury sedan is meant to perform.
We must face the fact that Hyundai does not know how to properly engineer a
suspension system and that their quality control of shocks is seriously poor.
And you can prove this how?
Bottom line, you'd have to hand it to Hyundai for a job well done on the Genesis. Are there room for improvements? Of course. And with every new entry/model coming out from Hyundai, it gets better and better.
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I think we are probably going to turn away from that a bit, and not just in the luxury car market. Hyundai may be well positioned to capitalize on that. Some of us would be content to experience the "luxo" part during the vast majority of the time we spend with a car, simply driving it through our day, and we are willing to give up the latte at the dealership.
Hyundai would do well to listen to their buyers though.
Because of Hyundai's treatment, both the Genesis and Santa Fe are off my list for 2010/2011 vechicles. I will be looking at Toyota RAV4, Subaru Forrester and Acura, Lexus, Infiniti models.
I took a chance on the Azera and to some degree lost. Will not repeat the mistake with the Genesis.
You, on the other hand, sent a letter but didn't get the response you were looking for. If that was an insult, that's a bit of sensitivity on your end. Also, the events which took place between the Lexus and Hyundai couldn't be any different. As with all automakers, they reserve the right not to share with you (or anyone else outside of the organization) about their future products, that's why they can't respond to the letter the way you wanted. The Lexus was following-up with you on your purchase decision.
Hyundai has occasional trouble with their own employees doing that. I don't see a glaring weakness in the Genesis sedan, or the hot new Genesis Coupe. Do you'all?
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It was not what they said, but the tone. That is why I quoted it.
Regardless, this is my last post on any Hyundai site. For those who have not experienced problems with your Azeras or Genesis', congratulations. However, it appears many will not admit to problems or just don't understand how a luxury car is supposed to perform - in all categories.
Some people will never admit they made a bad decision, but I am willing to admit it.
BTW, the reviews on Edmunds are generally completed within a couple of months of purchasing the ca; too early for problems to have surfaced. :P
So why don't you educate us exactly what these problems are, and how a luxury car is supposed to perform - in all categories, instead of side-stepping the responses posed to you (except for posting the same excerpt time after time)?
I am guessing you're going to come across the issue with a similar Lexus (for example) if you insisit the Genesis has serious problems and can't perform like a luxury car.
Mattandi - I agree. Pricing for the Genesis starts around $30k. Edmunds.com lists 95 vehicles for sale in the $25-35k price range and another 40 vehicles in the $35-45k range (ok, a lot of these are "duplicates" in that they list both the 08 and 09 models of some vehicles but you get the idea). With the value and features the Genesis offers almost any of the above are good prospects and is where I suspect the sales are coming from.
IMO, if the car is reliable, one shouldn't worry too much about whether the dealer has latte or just plain joe - 'cause you won't be spending that much time there.
He also touted the car's reliability to me and I bit my tongue about seeing that the service department waiting room was full.
Loaners are nice, and with them, you don't need lattes or loaners or net access.
Loaners are nice if a car has to be kept overnight--which has been so rare for me over the past 10 years or so that it's again not a reason to buy or not buy a car from a particular dealer. But I like the idea they are available if I need them. More important to me is a dealer who will cheerfully give me a lift home or to the office if I request it. And the net access is nice for those 30 minute oil change appointments (the most frequent kind of service), since I can be productive while I wait (unless I decide to chew the fat with a sales rep about their new models...).
I am sure that all the people waiting for their trusty Subarus were there for scheduled maintenance.
I do my own oil changes, but yeah, net access for the quick stuff would be nice. Rides to the office are ok, but you have to get back to the dealer and sometimes that's a pain.
If you pay a premium for a Genesis, how hard is it to give the owner an Accent for the day while the 15k service is being done?
Like I said, you don't understand why people buy luxury brands like BMW, MB and Lexus (not like there is anything wrong with that). People buying those cars because they want the totally luxury ownership experience, not just cars with luxury equipments. How many times do I have to express that... :confuse:
I know some people will say that I don't give a darn because I just want a nice car with all the luxurious goodies like gadgets and leather seats. Well, if that's the case then good for you because you'll have more choices than the true luxury buyers. However since the title of this thread is, and I'll point out again:
Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?
I felt it's important to let people know what does luxury market mean to the traditional luxury buyers, ie the MB, BMW and Lexus owners.
The Hyundai dealer I bought 2 cars from used to have round-trip shuttle service, which was nice because they would take me downtown to my office and pick me up again in the afternoon. I'd save parking fees. Then they dropped that service, and also their competence declined, so I said good-bye in favor of a dealership closer to home.
Then please tell me what market the Genesis is in?
And just because YOU want to spend lots of money to be pampered like a spoiled child doesn't mean everyone does. I rather pocket the money and skip whatever it is Lexus does to or for you.
mdutch
Large sedan market like the Buick Lucerne, Pontiac G8, Toyota Avalon, Nissan Maxima, Chrysler 300C and even Hyundai's own Azera. Oh and by the way don't give me that FWD vs. RWD lecture because simply the general buying public don't really care about it. This a Hyundai, a large car and more luxurious than its competitors, that's all. Can the Genesis hang with its luxury competitors like the 5er, E and GS purely based on the car itself? I would think so (I test drove one before). However, would it be a player in the luxury market? Not a chance if it carries the Hyundai badge.
I rather pocket the money and skip whatever it is Lexus does to or for you.
Please refer to my previous post:
Post 1517
YOU, sir, does not represent the luxury buyers and you know what, there are A LOT of them out there besides me who want the total luxury ownership experience. Those people, sir, have different priorities when it comes to buying a luxury car and they, sir, ARE THE CORE LUXURY MARKET.
Is it a fancy showroom with classical music. Concierge service? Free maintenance for four years? Leather lounge chairs in the service waiting room? Loaners or free car pickup and delivery? A hand wash with every service?
See my point? It's not the product I am trying to point out here, it's the experience.
What's the "experience" then you asked...
It's everything you mentioned: giant showroom inside a stand-alone maintenance facility, loaner car for any kind of service as long as one requests it, free espresso (the good kind) and snacks, leather sofa, free wash with every service PLUS:
- Reserved parking lot at sporting venus: Philly's Wachovia Center , Atlanta's Turner Field and Miami's Office Depot Center
- Receiving benefits when visiting the top resorts and hotels: Lexus Partnership Benefits
- Exclusive clubs and associations: MB Community
- Getting pampered at and treated like royalty at the maintenance facilities
So what's the "experience"? It's almost a lifestyle in a certain extend. Now the question is: Will I get those with buying a Hyundai Genesis?
And it still doesn't work as well as a $1.59 Bic Gel. A Visconti probably doesn't either. :shades:
The only time I stayed at a Ritz Carlton, I had a nice view of the Pentagon City shopping complex.
Thanks for the expansion on the partner benefits.
How much are they worth to you? $5000? $10,000? More?
How are you so sure what a luxury buyer is? I own a Lexus and I'm purchasing a Genesis. I can certainly tell you that I have gotten miserable treatment at Lexus, BMW et al.... It has nothing to do with the make... You wouldn't believe the garbage I had to put up with when I leased the Lexus... Does the local Hyundai dealer subject me to the same dealer antics? SURE! but I'm paying thousands less... What do you have to say to that? I'm a "luxury" buyer and I consider the Genesis a luxury car....
Sir, if I read your post right you LEASED a luxury car.
Sorry, you are not a true luxury buyer. I don't consider those who lease a 3-series like for $299/month true luxury buyers.
First of all, I said Mont Blanc, not Montblanc. On that note:
http://www.everywine.co.uk/every-wine/online/mont-blanc-wine
So uh... you were saying?
Personally, it isn't all that important if my service department luxuriates me. I'm hardly ever there. I'm in my car most every day, so that's what matters. What I want from a service department is reliable, honest, and good quality service. I'm probably there for only an hour a year.
So, yes, if Hyundai offers a product comparable to one costing thousands more, I'd give them a shot, especially if longer term reviews of the new Genesis are positive. If I were to be bothered by the appearance and amenities of the local dealer's service department, then I'd give my daughter $20 to take it to service for me. She'd be thrilled and I'd be sitting on a better quality leather sofa right in the comfort of my own living room.
A couple of years ago, I loathed the thought of buying a Hyundai, but no longer. They've come a long, long way imo.
Unfortunately, the closest Hyundai dealer doesn't have my trust in the quality, reliable service arena. However, they've been sold to the biggest local dealer which is expanding to a second location. I'll keep my ears and eyes open as to how the new owner does. If all checks out, I'll consider the Genesis a lot more.
And, by the way, I've heard quite a few complaints about BMW and Lexus dealers in my area as well over the years. I'd wager that overall service at more mainstream luxury dealers might well be better than the typical Hyundai dealer, but there are exceptions both ways.
One blind tasting group preferred some cheap bottle of wine until the labels were disclosed. Then they all switched over to the Dom Perignon, even though they had just rated it at the bottom of the wine flight they had just sampled.
It'd be fun to strip the badges off a Genesis and a few luxury marques and have a focus group rate them on luxury.
I didn't.
I just want to provide a different opinion from a difference perspective (I personally own a luxury brand vehicle and most of my friends are luxury brand vehicle owners range from Porsche to Acura) to paint a complete picture of the topic. Which is, may I repeat, Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?
I just don't think all arguments will be heard if there are only current Hyundai owners/supporters discussing about whether or not Hyundai can be competitive in the luxury market.
In my opinion the Genesis is fully capable to hang with its competitors like the GS, 5er and E-class. It is the "total luxury ownership experience" that's lacking for it to compete in the luxury market (which is the topic of this thread). If the topic is something like: For the car only, is the Genesis good enough to compete with the GS, 5er and E then you won't get an argument from me.
So based on that, your wine-tasting example is totally irrelevant to the topic.
Yes, there is room in the luxury market for Hyundai, and they've proved it by producing a very competent RWD large, luxo sedan called the Genesis.
Period.
You seem to want to follow your own wild hair off in to LA-LA land and talk about the entire experience, including the dealership experience. BTW, are you from L.A.?
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