Thanks for the summary of Professional opinions on the Genesis sedan. Here's the net-net of those opinions:
* Consumer Reports: Top-rated car in its price class and CR "Recommended".
* Motor Trend: 2009 COTY runner-up. From the July 2009 review of the 3.8: Badge snobs will probably stay away, but those interested in a great entry-level luxury car will not be disappointed.
* R&T May 2009 review re Handling: The Genesis' handling is equally, if not more, impressive. Turn-in is crisp, thanks in part to its solid and communicative chassis. On the tight stuff, the car exhibits slight understeer, but the rear end will hang out if you're too assertive with the throttle. Some complained about the Genesis' ESC system (Electronic Stability Control), saying it kicked in too aggressively when either the front or rear tires lost traction. The Genesis' suspension is the most sophisticated Hyundai has ever produced — a 5-link setup at both front and rear. The ASD (Amplitude Selective Damper) system adjusts damping force depending on road conditions, providing a smooth ride on the highway and excellent stability on rough roads and through corners. But as adept as the Genesis was on the test track (it registered 0.86g on the skidpad, and its slalom run of 63.8 mph is faster than the Infiniti M45's), its true home is on the open road.
* Automobile Magazine, May 2009 review: My heart rate was certainly above its normal level as I circled Hyundai's test track at 150 mph in a Genesis equipped with Hyundai's advanced new 375-hp, 4.6-liter V-8 engine. The big sedan was composed, predictable, and vigorous as the high banks dumped us onto the long straights and the scenery blurred. Yes, I was driving a Hyundai. What is this world coming to?
* Automobile Magazine, Jamie Kitman on the Genesis sedan: But there's one truly surprising and noteworthy thing about the Genesis, which I discovered only when I finally got around to driving one: it's quite good. With excellent refinement, a capable chassis, and truly superior interior finish and materials, it revisits the formula - premium car for less than premium bucks - that put Lexus in business twenty years ago.
* USA Today, James R. Healey review: Surprise, Hyundai proves it's a master of luxury with Genesis ... Ignoring price, it's a credible contender. Considering price, there might not be another car that's such an all-around satisfier. ... Overall: Uncommonly good.
* C/D, October 2008 review: (Comparison to the LS460) Given that it costs 40 percent less than the Lexus, the Genesis is definitely in the hunt—as long as the buyer doesn’t care about the badge on the trunk.
* Automobile Magazine, October 2008, Genesis 4.6 comparo vs. Jaguar XF, Lexus GS460, Mercedes Benz E550: Bull's Eye, Baby ... Hyundai has obviously come to the same conclusion, and as a luxury car in the grand American tradition of luxury cars - plush, quiet, relatively inexpensive cruisers with loads of space, a big V-8, and all the gadgets to impress the neighbors - the Genesis wins this comparison hands down.
* Edmunds.com Inside Line, April 2009. (There's many Inside Line entries on the Genesis from April 2009, but here's a quote from the Genesis vs. 750i comparo from last April): For long highway journeys, the commute into work and nights out on the town, the Genesis will do everything you require and almost everything the 7 Series could do. And I'd seriously doubt you'd price everything else it can't do at $50,620. Seriously, for that money, buy a Genesis and then a BMW 335i for those instances when you need a Ultimate Driving Machine and/or a luxury badge to show off to friends. Why have one great car when you can have two great cars for the same price?
* Cars.com: 2009 New Car of the Year. From Mike Hanley, July 2008: Hyundai positions the Genesis as a performance sedan, and I admit I was skeptical as to whether or not the automaker was willing to do what it takes to truly deliver a sport-sedan experience. Having driven the sedan on a variety of roads, I'm now able to report that Hyundai has backed up its talk with a true performer.
* ConsumersGuide.com review of the Genesis sedan: Pros: Acceleration (V8), Ride, Interior Materials; Cons: Fuel economy (V8). ConsumersGuide "Recommended Pick", along with the Audi A8 and Cadillac DTS. Other cars in this rating class are the Lexus LS, Mercedes Benz S-Class, and Lincoln MKS.
Based on these Professional reviews, I'd say Hyundai has already "gotten there" with the Genesis sedan.
BTW, what is truly significant is the amount of money Hyundai spends on magazine advertising. ... Make your own conclusion, ...
My own conclusion is that you have been reading too many books about The Grassy Knoll and other conspiracy theories.
AFAIK, all of Hyundai's competitors also advertise in magazines. Do you happen to know the amount of magazine advertising spending each manufacturer does in a year? And how much of that is devoted to the Genesis?
I don't know if I qualify as a "Professional Source" or not. I have spent the past 32 years in Auto Service, as a technician, service writer and service manager...as well as parts manager. I deal with 20-30 Hyundai owners every day, and have for almost six years.
I've worked for Lexus, Toyota, Ford, Mazda, Kia and Mercedes. I have NEVER had a job where so many customers LOVED their cars. I believe this fact can be proven rather easily by reviewing JD Powers surveys. Hyundai trails only Lexus, Porsche and Cadillac in initial quality.
By the way....Hyundai doesn't pay me. Not a nickel. I work for the dealership.
But if that dealership went out of business (e.g. if they didn't sell enough Hyundais), you'd be out of a job. That dependence on Hyundai's success lends unavoidable bias to your opinions. Just as if someone who worked for, let's say Toyota/Lexus, or a Toyota/Lexus dealership, posted their opinions of the Genesis in here. I'd have to take them with a grain of salt. Sorry, that's just the way I am. Nothing against you personally.
I would wonder about a service tech who worked at a new-car dealership and didn't own at least one vehicle from that manufacturer. That is, I'd wonder about the cars.
It's like anything else- Techs usually buy a broken car for a cheap price and fix it. Most long-time techs don't give a whit what kind it is. When you work around cars 50-60 hours a week for a few years, you really just view them as transportation. I doubt many techs spend their time out here in car forums. We get our fill of cars at work. Maybe it speaks to the quality of Hyundai that us service managers who work Saturdays have time to kill.......
Yes, I've seen only one reviewer comment mentioning "clunking" from the suspension. Others have mentioned things like "unsettled" over uneven pavement and stuff like that. But only one saying "clunking." If there's others, I know some folks who post here regularly who will probably bring them to our attention.
Thank you, Backy. My concern wasn't limited to whether the genesis suspension clunked, but was whether there was a possible suspension problem. You've confirmed for me that there quite likely is a suspension issue and I appreciate that. My preacher's kia amanti has suspension noise (I think it's like an azera). I think I shall postpone hyundai thoughts until they get their suspension issues resolved.
You might want to test the 2010 Genesis. It is reported to have suspension tuning tweaks to address the issue some drivers have with the ride over some road surfaces.
I don't think I would base my buying decision on a noise my preachers car made. Especially since it is an entirely different car.
Nor would I base my decision on something I read on line. Your best option is to thoroughly test the exact car you have an interest in, and then see what you think.
The Dec 09 Motor Trend has an interesting feature article titled "On the trail of the Orient Express". The writers drove 2 Genesis 4.6 sedans from Paris to Istanbul. The writers generally seemed to have a good time on their trip but did point out a few things that I am sure someone from carolina will jump all over, although my impression is the problems were more road related and not related to any design defects. Maybe a lack of refinement but definitely not defective. Here are a few snippets:
...at 3000 rpm in top, the Genesis is cruising at 110 mph and could do it all day long.
...we see an indicated 150 mph a couple times. At these speeds...the Genesis' demeanor gets a nervy edge. ...you need to be extra delicate with your steering inputs above 120 mph.
in Budapest--...a young man inquires about snapping photos--"this is a very nice expensive car". ...one valet says it is a dead ringer for a BMW...
...we've covered more than 2200 miles across 7 countries and the Hyundais haven't missed a beat.
...they've been driven flat out on the autobahn, tiptoed through cobbled streets of medieval villages, and in Romania and Bulgaria pounded for hundreds of miles over some of the roughest tarmac we've seen this side of a test track durability course.
...There's a new Orient Express: Paris to Istanbul in the Hyndai Genesis. Time to crack open the that magnum of Moet Imperial and celebrate.
While they did find a few "faults" (I hate to use that term since I am sure some other posters will jump on that in an attempt to vindicate their position about "alleged" suspension design flaws) with a not totally Germanic demeanor on the autobahn, they seemed to be genuinely impressed with the overall trip they made in the Genesis.
Wayne, I'm not against Hyundai at all. Hyundai is the atom bomb of auto world and not even Toyota can deny that. The thing is I'm expecting them to do better than to hastily move deeper into the luxury market with Equus when it's still working on establishing it's position as a considerable near-luxo/entry level luxo market, you name it. As for Gen itself, contrary to the magazine review, I've yet to hear any complaints about Gen's suspension.
@Backy: I didn't even as one customer. I asked a salesman I know, and salespeople know more than anyone else except the customers themselves. Of course, regardless of reason, I heard most customers are quite pleased with the car.
I don't think a v8 Genesis can even match a v6 GS. The GS is faster, more agile, lighter, drinks less fuel, more luxurious, and more technologically up to date (from NAV to stereo, etc). Of course, Gen is roomier, cheaper and as far as I know, more reliable. Sadly, cheaper and more reliable aren't top selling point in the $50k class where the likes of GS and Audi A6 lurk. Think whatever you want, but you can't change fact.
Controversy about Azera and Sonata's suspension is no more, IMO. Espo has cleared it when he stated that Hyundai "updated" the suspension in those models. In my book "updated" is another way of saying that Hyundai admitted that the original suspension was indeed problematic.
I don't think a v8 Genesis can even match a v6 GS.
Maybe you've seen the comparo Edmunds.com did with the Genesis 4.6 vs. GS350. The GS350 was quicker, by 2/10 of one second, than the larger and heavier Genesis. And of course the smaller, lighter GS with a less powerful V6 vs. the Genesis with its Tau engine gets better fuel economy. Agility/handling wise, Edmunds found that was "all but a tie."
As for matching the GS... the Genesis was the winner of that comparo, albeit by a small margin.
Maybe some or even most buyers in this class don't care about a $7700 price difference (more than $12,000 if comparing V8 to V8). I'll bet quite a few do, however.
Actually I didn't. I've just read the comparo after you mentioned it. It's just what I got from my test drive experience of Gen v6, gen v8, and GS350. Fairly speaking, the Gen with v6 did have better fuel economy than GS350 I tried, which was amusing considering the car's size disparity. Though the v6 was bog slow during my test and both engines (v6 and v8) were too slow to react for my taste.
Edmunds has its results, I have mine. I'm not a pro like the testers, but I believe what I see more. :shades:
Quite a few people do care about price difference, hence the existence of the near luxo midsize/large sedans like ES and Genesis.
Is there a predetermined or magic number of people who have to complain about the suspension before it is perceived as a problem?
No, Wayne, but you have to understand that in surveys and even normal conversation, 10% of all people like absolutely nothing. To be fair, around 20% like absolutely everything, so you need to throw out the 10% most negative and 20% most positive remarks. Once you cut through the noise and ulterior motives, you get to the truth.
After reading HUNDREDS of owner remarks and reviews, I haven't heard a single remark about the Genesis suspension "clunking". I've only read 3 or 4 people remark that the suspension was unacceptable, and 1 isn't even an owner.
If people are concerned about price and want a mid-sized FWD car like the ES, they can also buy a very nice Camry XLE V6 with comparable performance and ride quality to the ES but for thousands less.
Others have mentioned things like "unsettled" over uneven pavement and stuff like that. But only one saying "clunking." If there's others, I know some folks who post here regularly who will probably bring them to our attention.
I have used the "unsettled" word in my description of the Genesis's ride on certain surfaces. I have also said it rides a bit firm for MY TASTES, having said that I have not heard any suspension noises that could be considered a "clunk". FWIW my GFs '08 Elantra has no such noise either and actually has a very nice riding suspension setup.
Recently on an under construction and bumpy highway I actually had to give my Genesis a thumbs up with the way it handled it. Firm, yes, but other than some minor transmission of the bumps through the steering it was very controlled and secure even at 70 - 75 MPH.
I just can't believe that there is a wide spread suspension problem with this vehicle. On a subjective level it is firm and depending on your tastes that is either a good or bad thing. On certain roads it can get a little harsh but no more so than a 5 series or M35.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
"I just can't believe that there is a wide spread suspension problem with this vehicle. On a subjective level it is firm and depending on your tastes that is either a good or bad thing."
LOL now that's interesting. I personally think Gen's suspension is a bit soft. This kind of thing is subjective, some like it pillowy like Towncar, some like it Infiniti/BMW firm, I'm with the latter. Again, I've never heard of any widespread suspension problem on Gen, perhaps the tester got a lemon?
@Backy: yup, there're always people wanting more and more for the money.
If the Genesis, or any Hyundai car, was a true luxury car, this topic would not even exist. The main qualifier for a true luxury car is that it is perceived by the public, especially those in the upper echelons, as a luxury/prestige car. Neither the Genesis nor the Equus has met this standard. AMC, Studebaker, Ford, Chevrolet, Plymouth and many others all made “luxury” cars at one time or another, but the public did not perceive them as such. Genesis is not a luxury car in the sense that BMW, Lexus, M-B, Infiniti, Acura, etc. are luxury cars. It is just a very nicely equipped upscale sedan at a low price. Enjoy the car and the value you place in it, but do not try to make it something it is not.
You cherry picked! You could say I did the same thing, but my intention is to confirm that there are issues/concerns with the Genesis suspension/ride, not give an oveall assessment of the car. Also, I listed sources so everyone can go to them and read complete articles/reports/reviews. For instance, you did not cite the Consumers.Guide.com comments and rating on the suspension/ride. Nor did you give the overall score compared to the average in its class. 3.8 w/Premium Plus: 6, Class Average: 7.9 Scores for large premium cars: Low Score-67; Class Average Score-74.4; High Score-87. Genesis Score: 73 Maximum score possible-110. Genesis scores below average, even with several really top scores.
Last April's New Car issue of Consumer Reports had an article on the manufacturers. Hyundai as a brand had three negatives: Suspension, low fuel economy and low resale value. It is a difficult decision because the Genesis does have some really superlative reviews, but it is also brand new from a company with an improving, but spotted history. It is also their first RWD and V8. My philosophy is to let someone else be the guinea pig and prove the car over the long haul.
If you want to cite numbers try these from Consumer Reports, probably a more recognized name than Consumer Guide (and from your previous posts, you do seem to respect what CU says)
In the category of "upscale Sedans" with a score range of a low of 43 to a high of 92, the Genesis' score--92! That is the highest score in that CU category!
In the area of owner satisfaction and the question "would you buy this vehicle again?", with a percentage range of 52 on the low side and 88 on the high side-- the Genesis' score--84%! That score was only topped by the Acura TL AWD (88). This category includes BMW 335i Sedan AWD (83), Toyota Avalon (81), Volkswagen CC 4-cyl (79), Lexus ES (79), Infiniti G Sedan (78), Hyundai Azera (76), Lexus IS350 (74), Lexus IS250 AWD (65), and so on. The median score in this class is 74. See Bob, we can cite numbers and figures also, and the vast majority of what I have read or seen are positive.
Could there be a design problem or flaw with the Genesis suspension? Possibly, but it is more likely a suspension tuning issue. Remember that one of the comments made by the press when they tested the KDM Genesis early on was that it was too soft for the US market, so Hyundai stiffened it up for the US and evidently went a little too far for the expectations of some in its class.
"The main qualifier for a true luxury car is that it is perceived by the public, especially those in the upper echelons, as a luxury/prestige car. Neither the Genesis nor the Equus has met this standard."
Tell us, Bob- how IS the Genesis perceived by the public?
Hyundai itself claims the Genesis as midsize premium car in its ads. It`s ad says-- Voted most appealing midsize premium car by JD Power "" :shades:
I like the Genesis-awesome bang for the buck with luxury features but not a luxury marquee. Luxury buyers prefer badge name more than anything. Sad but unfortunately very true. And perceptions take time to change and that IMO is really sad .A luxury badge to luxury buyers is more a sense of achievement,status symbol .But Hyundai is making the right moves. In 2 or 3 years,the Equus will be here and then they can create a separate luxury brand with these really good sedans when the economy recovers. No point in opening a luxury brand when the economy is collapsing and sales of luxury cars are tanking.
I think Hyundai will strike when the rod is hot. Wait for the economy to recover,get up its brand image ,get rave reviews and awards for Genny and Equus and then dive on full length to create a luxury brand. :P And I certainly would consider buying a 2 or 3 yr Genny down the line after the initial steep hit in depreciation !!
"Luxury buyers prefer badge name more than anything."
I disagree. Excess used to be "cool". In today's environment, "Value" is todays' "cool". Thurston Howell and the Grey Poupon crowd didn't get their money by being oblivious to the economy.
I cherry picked?!? LOL, that is hilarious! I cited EXACTLY the same sources you did. Yet I cherry picked. Funny, funny.
What I did, and you did not, is provide the net-net of each reference you cited. You in fact "cherry picked", albeit with "rotten" cherries, by zeroing in on only one small part of each review. If you read all of the reviews you cited, in their entirety, they paint a much different picture than the negative, single-minded "Genesis has a problem with its suspension" position you seem obsessed with.
If you look at ANY professional review of any car, you will find something (usually multiple things) the reviewers complain about. Even CR hasn't found the perfect car yet, although they think the LS comes very close to their ideal.
The expert opinion, from your cited sources, is clear: the Genesis is a hands-down winner, in the "luxury" marketplace (cf. the headline on the USA Today review).
Yes, in the Consumers Guide article, the overall score is a bit below the class average. Did you notice what cars the "class" includes? I did provide that info in my post. I don't think it's a terrible thing for the Genesis to rank overall a bit below the class average for a class that includes the A8, S Class, 7 Series, and LS. Also did you notice the Genesis is Recommended by Consumers Guide, and that they said its ride is a "Pro" of the car--not a failing as you like to portray it. No, I guess you didn't notice those things because you are too busy focusing only on details of reviews that support your position that the Genesis has a lousy suspension.
And if you really wanted to help people, you would provide URLs to every article you cite. Instead, you mentioned vague references like Inside Line for a month in which they had many articles about the Genesis.
Hey, you know what? If Genesis owners/shoppers could get those Upper Echelons, including carolinabob I guess, to officially classify the Genesis as a True Luxury Car, you know what they could do with that distinction? That plus about $3 would get them a latte at their favorite coffee shop.
What CarolinaBob said about the classifications of a luxury car isn't made by him. It's made by millions of people who set the bar out there. They're the ones who define the class.
Second, we all can use whatever sources for what they are, sources. In the end it's consumers who decide which one is what.
I'm with Del, the middle and upper luxury class prefer prestige over value, at least most of them are. Even the legendary Lexus took years to penetrate the market back in the years when it was so much easier to do so.
Is value the new cool? For now and for some, but when the economy goes back up this "value" (while may still remain cool for some) won't be as cool anymore. That's life.
What will happen later? Nobody knows, perhaps Hyundai will find it's path to luxury class, perhaps it won't. Gen is a good start, but as Bob said, I choose to let someone else be the guinea pig. After all, what do I get by being the guinea pig? Nothing. :shades:
It appears demand is beginning to wake up a little. That's good news not just for the car makers, but for everyone. Downturns are tough, but in the end they are not all bad. They cause shakeups that re-shape the industry to suit the times.
What CarolinaBob said about the classifications of a luxury car isn't made by him. It's made by millions of people who set the bar out there. They're the ones who define the class.
EXACTLY, it IS largely about perceptions, and it is the reason that a Hyundai cannot be a 'luxury brand'. IT also has nothing to do with any particular products they might currently market either - like the Gen Sedan and possibly even the Equus in the future. I would expect, though, to see a Genesis brand to be established if Hyundai is seriously going to attack the luxury market at that point.
After all, what do I get by being the guinea pig? Nothing.
I have some experience there. Nine years ago I was the "guinea pig" who went for an all-new Hyundai design vs. something like the gift-from-the-gods Civic. What did I get for being a guinea pig?
* I saved at least $4000 compared to a Civic that had fewer features and much less power. If I compared the Hyundai to a more comparable Civic, I saved more like $7000. * I got a much longer warranty--which as it turned out I didn't need, but it was nice to have. * I got a much smoother, quieter, roomier, more comfortable car with "the best driver's seat in the business" (Car & Driver). A car they ranked 2nd, one-half point behind the Protege, for best car in its class.
Nothing to be gained by going for a lower-priced alternative? Hardly.
Yeah, sure. Wait for the Genesis to win a few dozen more luxury car awards. A Gen sedan is a remarkable value objectively just as most of Hyundai's other products are BUT to pretend it is even close to an LS (or the appropriate German sedan) objectively is nothing more than fooling yourself. The Genesis isn't winning all its COY awards and/or getting all those favorable reviews (necessarily) because of what it is in any absolute or comparative sense, it is winning them because of what it is at the price they are asking for it. An important distinction, in my mind - true luxury cars don't have to 'buy' their recognition because dollar and cents 'value' is NOT what they are all about. They are what they are, and folks EXPECT to pay a premium for it. Find me a reviewer that can look me in the eye and tell me he'd rather drive a Genesis that the LS that you folks seem to think the Gen compares to and I'll show you a reviewer that smokes too much crack.
A new article from Auto spies suggest that the Genesis may have had an effect in sales from Audi, Infiniti, and most of all Lexus. So far BMW and MB may have been spared.
This may be the first article to confirm that many of us have said all along that the Genesis is being viewed as a luxury automobile and not just a wantabe. This is encouraging for the Equus and Genesis in years to come.
Find me a reviewer that can look me in the eye and tell me he'd rather drive a Genesis that the LS that you folks seem to think the Gen compares to and I'll show you a reviewer that smokes too much crack.
Well, it isn't a comparison of the Genesis to a Lexus, but will a comment by a reviewer from a long-term test by Automobile magazine in their December 2009 issue do?
At 17,239 miles into their long-term Genesis 4.6 review: "Is it sad that I prefer spending time behind the wheel of our Genesis more than I do our BMW 750Li? The steering feels better weighted and the throttle more progressive." :P
The Genesis isn't winning all its COY awards and/or getting all those favorable reviews (necessarily) because of what it is in any absolute or comparative sense, it is winning them because of what it is at the price they are asking for it.
Wrong-o.
Example 1: James Healey on the Genesis: "Ignoring price, it's a credible contender."
Example 2: Consumer Reports has the Genesis as a Recommended car, and the top ranked car in its class. CR does not consider price in its rankings, i.e. they are based on a car's non-price attributes, against an absolute rating scale.
But when you think about it, ANY car is eventually judged by its price. Consider the LS. It's a great car; CR says it's the best car they have ever tested. So why doesn't Lexus price them starting at, say, $100,000? That would allow those luxury car shoppers to really pay a premium for it, and they would probably snap it up in huge numbers. Right?
Suppose I go house shopping and I find a real nice one for $330,000, but then I go a few blocks away and find another for $600,000. Would I expect the $330,000 house to be as good in every way as the $600,000 house? Of course not, that's ridiculous. But... what if that $330,000 house was just as big as the $600,000 house, looked very similar, had similar quality, similar mechanicals (high-efficiency HVAC, top-quality windows and doors, high-grade appliances etc.), and a 10-year warranty to boot? At this point I am getting very interested in that $330,000 house. But then the realtor says, "But you know, some members at the local country club will look down their noses at you because your house cost ONLY $330,000 while theirs cost $600,000 or more."
At that point I start laughing hysterically... all the way to the bank to work out the details on the mortgage on the $330,000 house.
Yeah, sure. Wait for the Genesis to win a few dozen more luxury car awards
1. It doesn't matter. It can win a million awards but it's still not a true luxury car by today's class standards.
2. Gen's won a lot of premium car awards, not that many luxury car awards as far as I know.
3. Does Genesis winning so many awards give me any advantage? Nope. Those awards are worthless to me.
4. No matter how many awards it wins, it's still a guinea pig car. Assuming the reputation and quality holds up, a 3rd generation or so will be the right time to purchase one IMO.
@Backy: Well, to each of his/her own, I see little advantage there.
1. The bigger warranty means nothing for most Americans who trade in their cars every 3-4 years or so.
2. For the money one can get far better customer service from Lexus or Infiniti (or even Acura, as long as you can stand the car's, uh.... "controversial" face).
3. The initial price advantage will probably go down the drain once resale value kicks in.
No matter how many awards it wins, it's still a guinea pig car. Assuming the reputation and quality holds up, a 3rd generation or so will be the right time to purchase one IMO
Can't agree with this one. There has been no reliability problems and some owners here and on other sites are at 40K miles and above. There was just recently a poster (on another site) who after 40K says the car is still tight, rattle free and also problem free. I don't think this discussion was ever a question whether late model Hyundai's are quality cars. By the 3rd generation of the Genesis it will be a different car and could be 10 years or more away. Just look at an Accord from 3 generations ago, clearly not the same car.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Find me a reviewer that can look me in the eye and tell me he'd rather drive a Genesis that the LS that you folks seem to think the Gen compares to and I'll show you a reviewer that smokes too much crack
Reviewers don't buy their own cars, and review cars make up <1% of total sales. So what's your point?
Yea, if you're going to GIVE me a car, I may decide to take the Lexus... although I would worry about the weak warranty.
For the money one can get far better customer service from Lexus or Infiniti...
For how much more money, exactly? e.g. what is the price difference between the Genesis and the GS or M? Also it depends on what you mean by "far better." If you mean that they treat you courteously, listen to your complaints, make an honest effort to address them (and btw provide you with up to 10 years of warranty service), do the work they promise to do on time, and even throw in perks like free WiFi in the waiting area, free oil changes for the life of the car and free car washes... I get all that today from my local Hyundai dealer--and I only have a lowly Elantra. If you mean sumptuous waiting areas (maybe with Italian leather couches, a cappuccino machine or a gurgling faux waterfall), service techs running around in white lab coats, and a parts department that looks like a mini Macy's, then I'd rather save the thousands of bucks up front for the Genesis and let the Lexus and Infiniti owners subsidize all of those perks for those dealerships by paying the "brand premium."
I don't think their is a currently produced Lexus that I would take if someone gave it to me.
All of them have uncomfortable seats that I slide around too much in and they all drive link numb bricks.
I have driven every currently produced Lexus but the IS-F. Maybe I would take an IS-F but the whole automatic only in a performance car is a big fail to me. I have the same problem with the smaller Mercedes AMG cars. Obviously an E-Class is too big a car to have a good manual trans but the SLK or C-Class should have manuals as an option.
I would take an original IS300 with the awesome alancra(SP?} seat option.
I will say that most of the Hyundais I have driven haven't had comfortable seats either. They were either too flat or too hard. They have the same problem with too slick leather and not enough lateral support that Lexus has in most of their cars.
I haven't had a chance to drive the newer higher end Hyundais though like the new Santa Fe or Genesis so maybe their seats are better.
Would I expect the $330,000 house to be as good in every way as the $600,000 house? Of course not, that's ridiculous right -o CR tests the Genesis against other $30-$40k UPSCALE sedans and indeed the Genesis rates at the top. Expand that comparison to include the J3 and German luxury sedans and, of course the Genesis comes up short. So, if the LSs etc of the world are superior on any objective basis then en why isn't the LS, for example, winning the NACOTY - EXCEPT, of course for the fact that the Genesis is so much cheaper. My point was that if the Genesis was priced more like a luxury car then it wouldn't be winning the awards that it has won, because its competition wouldn't be the $40k Avs/Maxs/Lucernes of the world. Hope your $330k house is in a good neighborhood and holds it value well, would hate to have you discover that your laughter is short lived. :confuse:
Nope. Prestige to the majority of the class is a part of luxury. I was explaining the class' mindset, not my own. Hope that explains.
As for me, luxury is defined with refinement, quality, service, and then throw in reliability and prestige as well as not so important additions.
Under my judging criteria on the car only, I call Toyota Crown a luxury car, Hyundai Equus a luxury car, but Genesis? Nope. Wait till you can actually try the Equus yourself, and you'll understand the difference.
Others will have different definitions, I know. Hence you can't tell anyone as confusing between prestige and luxury, as to some people prestige = luxury.
@Backy: Glad you have that experience with your local Hyundai. Sadly that's not the case with many other Hyundai dealerships out there, including in my area. This is what Hyundai needs to work on first before moving on.
Like I said earlier, early day Lexus pulled the best service ever known for the class (perhaps even comparable to ultra luxury players of that time). I'm not saying Hyundai should do the same, but at least something that's equal to the current Japanese3 will do. And not just at one or 2 dealers.
...why isn't the LS, for example, winning the NACOTY...
Was the LS a new design for 2009?
For COTY awards, the competition is only new designs. For example, for the MT COTY award, in which the Genesis was runner-up to the GT-R, the "competition" included the XF, MKS, and TL, but also many lower-priced cars. There were 3 main criteria:
1. Superiority 2. Significance 3. Value
Value was defined as, "How does each vehicle compare against its direct rivals? A vehicle with a low sticker price might not be as good a value as a more expensive vehicle that delivers outstanding performance, quality, and functionality."
And in fact, the most expensive car in the group, the GT-R, won the COTY. But the Genesis took 2nd, over direct rivals and many others. Because of its Superiority, Significance, and Value.
Let's look at the premise, "The Genesis sedan is not a luxury car because it is priced too low to be a luxury car." So it would then be something else--a "near luxury" car maybe, or some other label.
Question: What is the value to the owner of the car whether their car is considered by others to be a "luxury" car or not?
I can think of only one value-add: the ability for the owner to say, "Hey, look at me! I bought/leased a LUXURY car! Woo-hoo! I am something special! I am a big shot! All you owners of "near luxury" cars, you may now bow down and kiss my ring."
Anyway, that's the only value-add I can think of. And that may in fact be considered a significant value-add by the owner of the car. I am sure others will have different opinions.
Comments
* Consumer Reports: Top-rated car in its price class and CR "Recommended".
* Motor Trend: 2009 COTY runner-up. From the July 2009 review of the 3.8: Badge snobs will probably stay away, but those interested in a great entry-level luxury car will not be disappointed.
* R&T May 2009 review re Handling: The Genesis' handling is equally, if not more, impressive. Turn-in is crisp, thanks in part to its solid and communicative chassis. On the tight stuff, the car exhibits slight understeer, but the rear end will hang out if you're too assertive with the throttle. Some complained about the Genesis' ESC system (Electronic Stability Control), saying it kicked in too aggressively when either the front or rear tires lost traction. The Genesis' suspension is the most sophisticated Hyundai has ever produced — a 5-link setup at both front and rear. The ASD (Amplitude Selective Damper) system adjusts damping force depending on road conditions, providing a smooth ride on the highway and excellent stability on rough roads and through corners. But as adept as the Genesis was on the test track (it registered 0.86g on the skidpad, and its slalom run of 63.8 mph is faster than the Infiniti M45's), its true home is on the open road.
* Automobile Magazine, May 2009 review: My heart rate was certainly above its normal level as I circled Hyundai's test track at 150 mph in a Genesis equipped with Hyundai's advanced new 375-hp, 4.6-liter V-8 engine. The big sedan was composed, predictable, and vigorous as the high banks dumped us onto the long straights and the scenery blurred. Yes, I was driving a Hyundai. What is this world coming to?
* Automobile Magazine, Jamie Kitman on the Genesis sedan: But there's one truly surprising and noteworthy thing about the Genesis, which I discovered only when I finally got around to driving one: it's quite good. With excellent refinement, a capable chassis, and truly superior interior finish and materials, it revisits the formula - premium car for less than premium bucks - that put Lexus in business twenty years ago.
* USA Today, James R. Healey review: Surprise, Hyundai proves it's a master of luxury with Genesis ... Ignoring price, it's a credible contender. Considering price, there might not be another car that's such an all-around satisfier. ... Overall: Uncommonly good.
* C/D, October 2008 review: (Comparison to the LS460) Given that it costs 40 percent less than the Lexus, the Genesis is definitely in the hunt—as long as the buyer doesn’t care about the badge on the trunk.
* Automobile Magazine, October 2008, Genesis 4.6 comparo vs. Jaguar XF, Lexus GS460, Mercedes Benz E550: Bull's Eye, Baby ... Hyundai has obviously come to the same conclusion, and as a luxury car in the grand American tradition of luxury cars - plush, quiet, relatively inexpensive cruisers with loads of space, a big V-8, and all the gadgets to impress the neighbors - the Genesis wins this comparison hands down.
* Edmunds.com Inside Line, April 2009. (There's many Inside Line entries on the Genesis from April 2009, but here's a quote from the Genesis vs. 750i comparo from last April): For long highway journeys, the commute into work and nights out on the town, the Genesis will do everything you require and almost everything the 7 Series could do. And I'd seriously doubt you'd price everything else it can't do at $50,620. Seriously, for that money, buy a Genesis and then a BMW 335i for those instances when you need a Ultimate Driving Machine and/or a luxury badge to show off to friends. Why have one great car when you can have two great cars for the same price?
* Cars.com: 2009 New Car of the Year. From Mike Hanley, July 2008: Hyundai positions the Genesis as a performance sedan, and I admit I was skeptical as to whether or not the automaker was willing to do what it takes to truly deliver a sport-sedan experience. Having driven the sedan on a variety of roads, I'm now able to report that Hyundai has backed up its talk with a true performer.
* ConsumersGuide.com review of the Genesis sedan: Pros: Acceleration (V8), Ride, Interior Materials; Cons: Fuel economy (V8). ConsumersGuide "Recommended Pick", along with the Audi A8 and Cadillac DTS. Other cars in this rating class are the Lexus LS, Mercedes Benz S-Class, and Lincoln MKS.
Based on these Professional reviews, I'd say Hyundai has already "gotten there" with the Genesis sedan.
My own conclusion is that you have been reading too many books about The Grassy Knoll and other conspiracy theories.
AFAIK, all of Hyundai's competitors also advertise in magazines. Do you happen to know the amount of magazine advertising spending each manufacturer does in a year? And how much of that is devoted to the Genesis?
I've worked for Lexus, Toyota, Ford, Mazda, Kia and Mercedes. I have NEVER had a job where so many customers LOVED their cars. I believe this fact can be proven rather easily by reviewing JD Powers surveys. Hyundai trails only Lexus, Porsche and Cadillac in initial quality.
By the way....Hyundai doesn't pay me. Not a nickel. I work for the dealership.
I will tell you this: In 30+ years I NEVER bought the same kind of car I worked on.... not after hearing people complain about them all day long.
I own a Sonata, my wife owns a Santa Fe and my 18 yr old daughter owns an Elantra.
So I guess I walk the walk as well as talk the talk.
Maybe it speaks to the quality of Hyundai that us service managers who work Saturdays have time to kill.......
Thank you, Backy. My concern wasn't limited to whether the genesis suspension clunked, but was whether there was a possible suspension problem. You've confirmed for me that there quite likely is a suspension issue and I appreciate that. My preacher's kia amanti has suspension noise (I think it's like an azera). I think I shall postpone hyundai thoughts until they get their suspension issues resolved.
Nor would I base my decision on something I read on line. Your best option is to thoroughly test the exact car you have an interest in, and then see what you think.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
...at 3000 rpm in top, the Genesis is cruising at 110 mph and could do it all day long.
...we see an indicated 150 mph a couple times. At these speeds...the Genesis' demeanor gets a nervy edge. ...you need to be extra delicate with your steering inputs above 120 mph.
in Budapest--...a young man inquires about snapping photos--"this is a very nice expensive car". ...one valet says it is a dead ringer for a BMW...
...we've covered more than 2200 miles across 7 countries and the Hyundais haven't missed a beat.
...they've been driven flat out on the autobahn, tiptoed through cobbled streets of medieval villages, and in Romania and Bulgaria pounded for hundreds of miles over some of the roughest tarmac we've seen this side of a test track durability course.
...There's a new Orient Express: Paris to Istanbul in the Hyndai Genesis. Time to crack open the that magnum of Moet Imperial and celebrate.
While they did find a few "faults" (I hate to use that term since I am sure some other posters will jump on that in an attempt to vindicate their position about "alleged" suspension design flaws) with a not totally Germanic demeanor on the autobahn, they seemed to be genuinely impressed with the overall trip they made in the Genesis.
@Backy: I didn't even as one customer. I asked a salesman I know, and salespeople know more than anyone else except the customers themselves. Of course, regardless of reason, I heard most customers are quite pleased with the car.
I don't think a v8 Genesis can even match a v6 GS. The GS is faster, more agile, lighter, drinks less fuel, more luxurious, and more technologically up to date (from NAV to stereo, etc). Of course, Gen is roomier, cheaper and as far as I know, more reliable. Sadly, cheaper and more reliable aren't top selling point in the $50k class where the likes of GS and Audi A6 lurk. Think whatever you want, but you can't change fact.
Controversy about Azera and Sonata's suspension is no more, IMO. Espo has cleared it when he stated that Hyundai "updated" the suspension in those models. In my book "updated" is another way of saying that Hyundai admitted that the original suspension was indeed problematic.
Maybe you've seen the comparo Edmunds.com did with the Genesis 4.6 vs. GS350. The GS350 was quicker, by 2/10 of one second, than the larger and heavier Genesis. And of course the smaller, lighter GS with a less powerful V6 vs. the Genesis with its Tau engine gets better fuel economy. Agility/handling wise, Edmunds found that was "all but a tie."
As for matching the GS... the Genesis was the winner of that comparo, albeit by a small margin.
Maybe some or even most buyers in this class don't care about a $7700 price difference (more than $12,000 if comparing V8 to V8). I'll bet quite a few do, however.
Fairly speaking, the Gen with v6 did have better fuel economy than GS350 I tried, which was amusing considering the car's size disparity. Though the v6 was bog slow during my test and both engines (v6 and v8) were too slow to react for my taste.
Edmunds has its results, I have mine. I'm not a pro like the testers, but I believe what I see more. :shades:
Quite a few people do care about price difference, hence the existence of the near luxo midsize/large sedans like ES and Genesis.
No, Wayne, but you have to understand that in surveys and even normal conversation, 10% of all people like absolutely nothing. To be fair, around 20% like absolutely everything, so you need to throw out the 10% most negative and 20% most positive remarks. Once you cut through the noise and ulterior motives, you get to the truth.
After reading HUNDREDS of owner remarks and reviews, I haven't heard a single remark about the Genesis suspension "clunking". I've only read 3 or 4 people remark that the suspension was unacceptable, and 1 isn't even an owner.
I have used the "unsettled" word in my description of the Genesis's ride on certain surfaces. I have also said it rides a bit firm for MY TASTES, having said that I have not heard any suspension noises that could be considered a "clunk". FWIW my GFs '08 Elantra has no such noise either and actually has a very nice riding suspension setup.
Recently on an under construction and bumpy highway I actually had to give my Genesis a thumbs up with the way it handled it. Firm, yes, but other than some minor transmission of the bumps through the steering it was very controlled and secure even at 70 - 75 MPH.
I just can't believe that there is a wide spread suspension problem with this vehicle. On a subjective level it is firm and depending on your tastes that is either a good or bad thing. On certain roads it can get a little harsh but no more so than a 5 series or M35.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Well-said.
@Backy: yup, there're always people wanting more and more for the money.
The main qualifier for a true luxury car is that it is perceived by the public, especially those in the upper echelons, as a luxury/prestige car. Neither the Genesis nor the Equus has met this standard. AMC, Studebaker, Ford, Chevrolet, Plymouth and many others all made “luxury” cars at one time or another, but the public did not perceive them as such.
Genesis is not a luxury car in the sense that BMW, Lexus, M-B, Infiniti, Acura, etc. are luxury cars. It is just a very nicely equipped upscale sedan at a low price.
Enjoy the car and the value you place in it, but do not try to make it something it is not.
Also, I listed sources so everyone can go to them and read complete articles/reports/reviews.
For instance, you did not cite the Consumers.Guide.com comments and rating on the suspension/ride. Nor did you give the overall score compared to the average in its class.
3.8 w/Premium Plus: 6, Class Average: 7.9
Scores for large premium cars: Low Score-67; Class Average Score-74.4; High Score-87. Genesis Score: 73 Maximum score possible-110.
Genesis scores below average, even with several really top scores.
It is a difficult decision because the Genesis does have some really superlative reviews, but it is also brand new from a company with an improving, but spotted history. It is also their first RWD and V8.
My philosophy is to let someone else be the guinea pig and prove the car over the long haul.
In the category of "upscale Sedans" with a score range of a low of 43 to a high of 92, the Genesis' score--92! That is the highest score in that CU category!
In the area of owner satisfaction and the question "would you buy this vehicle again?", with a percentage range of 52 on the low side and 88 on the high side-- the Genesis' score--84%! That score was only topped by the Acura TL AWD (88). This category includes BMW 335i Sedan AWD (83), Toyota Avalon (81), Volkswagen CC 4-cyl (79), Lexus ES (79), Infiniti G Sedan (78), Hyundai Azera (76), Lexus IS350 (74), Lexus IS250 AWD (65), and so on. The median score in this class is 74. See Bob, we can cite numbers and figures also, and the vast majority of what I have read or seen are positive.
Could there be a design problem or flaw with the Genesis suspension? Possibly, but it is more likely a suspension tuning issue. Remember that one of the comments made by the press when they tested the KDM Genesis early on was that it was too soft for the US market, so Hyundai stiffened it up for the US and evidently went a little too far for the expectations of some in its class.
Tell us, Bob- how IS the Genesis perceived by the public?
Are you the voice of the "upper echelon"?
Tee Hee......
I like the Genesis-awesome bang for the buck with luxury features but not a luxury marquee. Luxury buyers prefer badge name more than anything. Sad but unfortunately very true. And perceptions take time to change and that IMO is really sad .A luxury badge to luxury buyers is more a sense of achievement,status symbol .But Hyundai is making the right moves. In 2 or 3 years,the Equus will be here and then they can create a separate luxury brand with these really good sedans when the economy recovers. No point in opening a luxury brand when the economy is collapsing and sales of luxury cars are tanking.
I think Hyundai will strike when the rod is hot. Wait for the economy to recover,get up its brand image ,get rave reviews and awards for Genny and Equus and then dive on full length to create a luxury brand. :P And I certainly would consider buying a 2 or 3 yr Genny down the line after the initial steep hit in depreciation !!
I disagree. Excess used to be "cool". In today's environment, "Value" is todays' "cool". Thurston Howell and the Grey Poupon crowd didn't get their money by being oblivious to the economy.
You can connect blow-out sales to quality if you wish.
October Auto Sales Uptick May Presage the 'New Normal' (AutoObserver)
What I did, and you did not, is provide the net-net of each reference you cited. You in fact "cherry picked", albeit with "rotten" cherries, by zeroing in on only one small part of each review. If you read all of the reviews you cited, in their entirety, they paint a much different picture than the negative, single-minded "Genesis has a problem with its suspension" position you seem obsessed with.
If you look at ANY professional review of any car, you will find something (usually multiple things) the reviewers complain about. Even CR hasn't found the perfect car yet, although they think the LS comes very close to their ideal.
The expert opinion, from your cited sources, is clear: the Genesis is a hands-down winner, in the "luxury" marketplace (cf. the headline on the USA Today review).
Yes, in the Consumers Guide article, the overall score is a bit below the class average. Did you notice what cars the "class" includes? I did provide that info in my post. I don't think it's a terrible thing for the Genesis to rank overall a bit below the class average for a class that includes the A8, S Class, 7 Series, and LS. Also did you notice the Genesis is Recommended by Consumers Guide, and that they said its ride is a "Pro" of the car--not a failing as you like to portray it. No, I guess you didn't notice those things because you are too busy focusing only on details of reviews that support your position that the Genesis has a lousy suspension.
And if you really wanted to help people, you would provide URLs to every article you cite. Instead, you mentioned vague references like Inside Line for a month in which they had many articles about the Genesis.
What CarolinaBob said about the classifications of a luxury car isn't made by him. It's made by millions of people who set the bar out there. They're the ones who define the class.
Second, we all can use whatever sources for what they are, sources. In the end it's consumers who decide which one is what.
I'm with Del, the middle and upper luxury class prefer prestige over value, at least most of them are. Even the legendary Lexus took years to penetrate the market back in the years when it was so much easier to do so.
Is value the new cool? For now and for some, but when the economy goes back up this "value" (while may still remain cool for some) won't be as cool anymore. That's life.
What will happen later? Nobody knows, perhaps Hyundai will find it's path to luxury class, perhaps it won't. Gen is a good start, but as Bob said, I choose to let someone else be the guinea pig. After all, what do I get by being the guinea pig? Nothing. :shades:
EXACTLY, it IS largely about perceptions, and it is the reason that a Hyundai cannot be a 'luxury brand'. IT also has nothing to do with any particular products they might currently market either - like the Gen Sedan and possibly even the Equus in the future. I would expect, though, to see a Genesis brand to be established if Hyundai is seriously going to attack the luxury market at that point.
Yeah, sure. Wait for the Genesis to win a few dozen more luxury car awards.
That certainly won't drive the price up much......
(See Lexus).
I have some experience there. Nine years ago I was the "guinea pig" who went for an all-new Hyundai design vs. something like the gift-from-the-gods Civic. What did I get for being a guinea pig?
* I saved at least $4000 compared to a Civic that had fewer features and much less power. If I compared the Hyundai to a more comparable Civic, I saved more like $7000.
* I got a much longer warranty--which as it turned out I didn't need, but it was nice to have.
* I got a much smoother, quieter, roomier, more comfortable car with "the best driver's seat in the business" (Car & Driver). A car they ranked 2nd, one-half point behind the Protege, for best car in its class.
Nothing to be gained by going for a lower-priced alternative? Hardly.
A Gen sedan is a remarkable value objectively just as most of Hyundai's other products are BUT to pretend it is even close to an LS (or the appropriate German sedan) objectively is nothing more than fooling yourself. The Genesis isn't winning all its COY awards and/or getting all those favorable reviews (necessarily) because of what it is in any absolute or comparative sense, it is winning them because of what it is at the price they are asking for it. An important distinction, in my mind - true luxury cars don't have to 'buy' their recognition because dollar and cents 'value' is NOT what they are all about. They are what they are, and folks EXPECT to pay a premium for it.
Find me a reviewer that can look me in the eye and tell me he'd rather drive a Genesis that the LS that you folks seem to think the Gen compares to and I'll show you a reviewer that smokes too much crack.
http://autospies.com/news/Which-Impo...And-See-49414/
This may be the first article to confirm that many of us have said all along that the Genesis is being viewed as a luxury automobile and not just a wantabe. This is encouraging for the Equus and Genesis in years to come.
Well, it isn't a comparison of the Genesis to a Lexus, but will a comment by a reviewer from a long-term test by Automobile magazine in their December 2009 issue do?
At 17,239 miles into their long-term Genesis 4.6 review: "Is it sad that I prefer spending time behind the wheel of our Genesis more than I do our BMW 750Li? The steering feels better weighted and the throttle more progressive." :P
Wrong-o.
Example 1: James Healey on the Genesis: "Ignoring price, it's a credible contender."
Example 2: Consumer Reports has the Genesis as a Recommended car, and the top ranked car in its class. CR does not consider price in its rankings, i.e. they are based on a car's non-price attributes, against an absolute rating scale.
But when you think about it, ANY car is eventually judged by its price. Consider the LS. It's a great car; CR says it's the best car they have ever tested. So why doesn't Lexus price them starting at, say, $100,000? That would allow those luxury car shoppers to really pay a premium for it, and they would probably snap it up in huge numbers. Right?
Suppose I go house shopping and I find a real nice one for $330,000, but then I go a few blocks away and find another for $600,000. Would I expect the $330,000 house to be as good in every way as the $600,000 house? Of course not, that's ridiculous. But... what if that $330,000 house was just as big as the $600,000 house, looked very similar, had similar quality, similar mechanicals (high-efficiency HVAC, top-quality windows and doors, high-grade appliances etc.), and a 10-year warranty to boot? At this point I am getting very interested in that $330,000 house. But then the realtor says, "But you know, some members at the local country club will look down their noses at you because your house cost ONLY $330,000 while theirs cost $600,000 or more."
At that point I start laughing hysterically... all the way to the bank to work out the details on the mortgage on the $330,000 house.
1. It doesn't matter. It can win a million awards but it's still not a true luxury car by today's class standards.
2. Gen's won a lot of premium car awards, not that many luxury car awards as far as I know.
3. Does Genesis winning so many awards give me any advantage? Nope. Those awards are worthless to me.
4. No matter how many awards it wins, it's still a guinea pig car. Assuming the reputation and quality holds up, a 3rd generation or so will be the right time to purchase one IMO.
@Backy: Well, to each of his/her own, I see little advantage there.
1. The bigger warranty means nothing for most Americans who trade in their cars every 3-4 years or so.
2. For the money one can get far better customer service from Lexus or Infiniti (or even Acura, as long as you can stand the car's, uh.... "controversial" face).
3. The initial price advantage will probably go down the drain once resale value kicks in.
Can't agree with this one. There has been no reliability problems and some owners here and on other sites are at 40K miles and above. There was just recently a poster (on another site) who after 40K says the car is still tight, rattle free and also problem free. I don't think this discussion was ever a question whether late model Hyundai's are quality cars. By the 3rd generation of the Genesis it will be a different car and could be 10 years or more away. Just look at an Accord from 3 generations ago, clearly not the same car.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
True, but like many others posting here you are confusing "prestige" with "luxury".
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Reviewers don't buy their own cars, and review cars make up <1% of total sales. So what's your point?
Yea, if you're going to GIVE me a car, I may decide to take the Lexus... although I would worry about the weak warranty.
For how much more money, exactly? e.g. what is the price difference between the Genesis and the GS or M? Also it depends on what you mean by "far better." If you mean that they treat you courteously, listen to your complaints, make an honest effort to address them (and btw provide you with up to 10 years of warranty service), do the work they promise to do on time, and even throw in perks like free WiFi in the waiting area, free oil changes for the life of the car and free car washes... I get all that today from my local Hyundai dealer--and I only have a lowly Elantra. If you mean sumptuous waiting areas (maybe with Italian leather couches, a cappuccino machine or a gurgling faux waterfall), service techs running around in white lab coats, and a parts department that looks like a mini Macy's, then I'd rather save the thousands of bucks up front for the Genesis and let the Lexus and Infiniti owners subsidize all of those perks for those dealerships by paying the "brand premium."
All of them have uncomfortable seats that I slide around too much in and they all drive link numb bricks.
I have driven every currently produced Lexus but the IS-F. Maybe I would take an IS-F but the whole automatic only in a performance car is a big fail to me. I have the same problem with the smaller Mercedes AMG cars. Obviously an E-Class is too big a car to have a good manual trans but the SLK or C-Class should have manuals as an option.
I would take an original IS300 with the awesome alancra(SP?} seat option.
I will say that most of the Hyundais I have driven haven't had comfortable seats either. They were either too flat or too hard. They have the same problem with too slick leather and not enough lateral support that Lexus has in most of their cars.
I haven't had a chance to drive the newer higher end Hyundais though like the new Santa Fe or Genesis so maybe their seats are better.
right -o
CR tests the Genesis against other $30-$40k UPSCALE sedans and indeed the Genesis rates at the top. Expand that comparison to include the J3 and German luxury sedans and, of course the Genesis comes up short. So, if the LSs etc of the world are superior on any objective basis then en why isn't the LS, for example, winning the NACOTY - EXCEPT, of course for the fact that the Genesis is so much cheaper. My point was that if the Genesis was priced more like a luxury car then it wouldn't be winning the awards that it has won, because its competition wouldn't be the $40k Avs/Maxs/Lucernes of the world.
Hope your $330k house is in a good neighborhood and holds it value well, would hate to have you discover that your laughter is short lived. :confuse:
As for me, luxury is defined with refinement, quality, service, and then throw in reliability and prestige as well as not so important additions.
Under my judging criteria on the car only, I call Toyota Crown a luxury car, Hyundai Equus a luxury car, but Genesis? Nope. Wait till you can actually try the Equus yourself, and you'll understand the difference.
Others will have different definitions, I know. Hence you can't tell anyone as confusing between prestige and luxury, as to some people prestige = luxury.
@Backy:
Glad you have that experience with your local Hyundai. Sadly that's not the case with many other Hyundai dealerships out there, including in my area. This is what Hyundai needs to work on first before moving on.
Like I said earlier, early day Lexus pulled the best service ever known for the class (perhaps even comparable to ultra luxury players of that time). I'm not saying Hyundai should do the same, but at least something that's equal to the current Japanese3 will do. And not just at one or 2 dealers.
Was the LS a new design for 2009?
For COTY awards, the competition is only new designs. For example, for the MT COTY award, in which the Genesis was runner-up to the GT-R, the "competition" included the XF, MKS, and TL, but also many lower-priced cars. There were 3 main criteria:
1. Superiority
2. Significance
3. Value
Value was defined as, "How does each vehicle compare against its direct rivals? A vehicle with a low sticker price might not be as good a value as a more expensive vehicle that delivers outstanding performance, quality, and functionality."
And in fact, the most expensive car in the group, the GT-R, won the COTY. But the Genesis took 2nd, over direct rivals and many others. Because of its Superiority, Significance, and Value.
Question: What is the value to the owner of the car whether their car is considered by others to be a "luxury" car or not?
I can think of only one value-add: the ability for the owner to say, "Hey, look at me! I bought/leased a LUXURY car! Woo-hoo! I am something special! I am a big shot! All you owners of "near luxury" cars, you may now bow down and kiss my ring."
Anyway, that's the only value-add I can think of. And that may in fact be considered a significant value-add by the owner of the car. I am sure others will have different opinions.