"Do a quick search on, e.g. "Equus 7 Series", and there's several sources that comment favorably on the Equus vs. the likes of the 7 Series."
I am going to take you on that offer.
=============1st Google search results================ Even though we, along with most of the media, do not consider the Hyundai EQUUS to be YET in the same class as its classic competitors (BMW, Mercedes, Lexus), we certainly need to ask you these questions: Does the EQUUS really stand a chance in front of the new 7 Series? And to go even deeper in the analysis: would a $100,000 vehicle change your opinion of a brand, in this case, the Hyundai brand? At the end, let’s see how the two cars compare to each other, from a design point of view.
=============2nd from google================== No, it's not quite as nice inside the Equus as in the interiors of the luxury sedans it has targeted in the marketplace, but it's close, and the Equus should undercut those sedans by $20,000 or more.
I said credible source. I am sure toye would say it kicks a S63's butt...but that's beside the point. You're free to link something you might think is credible, however. You have time to reply to me, right? A holiday made by card printers and chocolate makers shouldn't slow you down :shades:
I have never denied the Genesis competes in the M/GS sector . There is no "finally", but the drama queen act is amusing anyway :P
The performance model is the CLS63...although that platform isn't known to be clumsy, with all due respect I'd like another source to replicate CRs data...
For the moment, I like driving a nice car and having no automotive debt
If that's the case, you're wise not to go drive one. Owners are saying that once you drive one, you get bitten. If you would come back on Edmunds as a Genesis owner, it would make blood shoot out of Captain's and Milwood's eyes.
"just took delivery of my 2010 genesis v8 sedan with tech pkg,,So far I am very impressed with this fine car, I also have a bmw 7 series and this car is just as nice for more than half the price"
I give 10X more weight to actual owners of both cars than the mush-mouthed automotive press (present company excepted, of course).
I'm hearing from many owners of BMW, MB, and even Lexus saying their Genesis is every bit the car as the above. Who are you going to ask? Don't ask me, Backy, Captain, or Consumer Reports. Ask the owner who has owned both cars!
I don't recall ever riding in a 7'er. However, my Son's 5 Series wasn't even close to the Genesis in my opinion. It's noisy, rides rough, and rides too low. It's was a white elephant, too. Always in the shop for this or that. It probably handled a tad better than the Genesis (I didn't get to put either through any handling tests), but serious handling challenges probably make up less than 1% of a car's daily use.
I bought an inexpensive Hyundai in 2006, and my dealer treats me like royalty. Sometimes I wish something would go wrong with my car so I could get free coffee and donuts, and schmooze with the Genesis salesmen. So get outta here with slamming Hyundai service. Yea, there may be a few bad eggs, but don't think for a moment that Hyundai is not capable of excellent service
Oh the people at the service desk were nice, the technicians OTOH were horrible. They order a radio and set up an appointment without checking to see if the radio is OK, then when I get it in, they find the radio is damaged, get a replacement brought in, never checked to see if the radio in the box was the correct one, then hold the car 2 more days while another radio is shipped in, finally get the car back and the steering wheel is damaged, then another trip in to get that replaced only to have them reset everything in the car, and you call that good service? How many Lexus, MB, BMW owners have had this happen to them? Heck even Ford has better service than that!
Hyundai makes a very good car, no doubt about that, but until they improve their service, they will never make it into the elite class of automaker.
Oh I forgot to mention, the VC never drove right after I got it back, it developed a flat spot on acceleration from a stop, and it never had that problem until I got it back from service.
My local Ford and Chrysler dealer always has a few late model highlines sitting around - does this mean people are trading them for Fusions and 300s? When my mom bought a Toyota last year, they had a loaded 3 year old SL on the lot - was it traded for a Solara?
Yes it does. The Fusion is actually a very good car, handles very well, is very well put together, so why wouldn't a smart buyer get rid of an expensive car for one, that maybe it isn't a "luxurious" inside as the expensive one, but handles well, has a good reputation for reliability, and costs far less. We are still in a recession, so cutting expenses by trading in the higher cost car, which is more than likely out of warranty, and repairs are so very expensive on once the warranty runs out, is a smart thing to do.
So you have an S600 MB Sedan, it is out of warranty, and the alternator pukes, now you have a car that doesn't run, and just the part alone costs $1500, add in the labor to install it, and now what do you have?
I can reasonably see Luxury car buyers going to a Ford, they do make some very good cars now, the Taurus SHO is one hot car, Fusion is Car of the Year, the Fiesta is coming out soon and will be a hot seller, it already is in Europe. Ford may not have "Luxury" cars, but they do make a damned fine automobile.
So the 07 E etc sitting at the dealer was probably traded on a car with less than half the original MSRP, and none of the status the new buyer craves? Maybe if the person was fiscally irresponsible or scared...but I don't know if that's the majority of late model highlines that hit mass market lots. That movement would also point to a collapse of highline sales, which isn't being seen. A lot of these cars are auctioned lease returns. They are most obvious when they lack license plates.
Not trying to diminish the competency of the Fusion (or any H product)...but I don't know if they are cross shopped, even in the used market.
I'd never be crazy enough to buy an S600...if I bought one, I would be in a position to drop $1500 and not care
it would make blood shoot out of Captain's and Milwood's eyes. don't be so sure - seeing it/sitting in it in a showroom was just fine if only I could get the accompanying idiotic 20 something Hyundai salesman to shut up. The Hyundai dealerships around here (there are several) are easily the most annoying place to look at cars IMO. Even more irritating than the Honda/Toyota 'let me do you a favor' approach. But, to get me to actually buy one - think that would have to do something about what I would regard as a go-cart ride. Like many Americans, I'll freely admit to a preference to soft boulevard rides and really can't appreciate a firmer ride unless, of course it's done like BMW's. I'm too old to be playing speed racer in any case.
I've had similar trouble with my local Hyundai dealer in regards to the salesman and the obnoxious nature that they can't leave you alone when you looking around; everytime I go by there is always at least 4-5 salesman standing outside the showroom in the parking lot and have to come right up to your car before you can even come out - its that bad!!!
seeing salesman standing around outside and then pouncing on you before you even have a chance to look around is the #1 sign of a bad dealership - even if I ever got a Hyundai I would never do business with this dealership - hopefully, for Hyundai's sake they aren't all like that but there are not many around to begin with, at least where I live so that kind of dealership experience is really going to hurt their sales!
I've even gone in on a Sunday to have some piece and quiet when I look and there have been 1 or 2 salesman dressed in plain clothing hiding out on a Sunday and then coming up and brow beating you about coming in and see them - I've been thinking of reporting them to Hyundai HQs because I just can't stand low lives like that - I never even saw this kind of low class treatment at my local GM dealership which really makes Hyundai look bad!!
I've even told these low life Hyundai salesman to please leave me alone and that I wasn't interested in buying and they still couldn't leave me alone!!! its such a shame they represent Hyundai so poorly!
====================================== to save you time, some short blurbs
f. We could hear abnormal engine noise at low speed. g. Also, right side mirror was not working properly. f. Regarding the engine noise, it is very popular and common question among New Genesis Owners, so the dealership recommended us to bring in for free of of charge Saturday Clinic. i. I asked them to cancel my contract due their ignorant, unpleasant, unprofessional answers and attitudes. The dealership told me that they will call me after the discussion with their managements. j. The dealership called and told us they figured out how that happened. They found the car from san Diego area and they drove it to the dealership and forgot to recalculate and adjust the contract accordingly. They told us to come in for the exchange.
"I'm hearing from many owners of BMW, MB, and even Lexus saying their Genesis is every bit the car as the above. Who are you going to ask? Don't ask me, Backy, Captain, or Consumer Reports. Ask the owner who has owned both cars! "
I have yet to know of anyone owning a Genesis, or a Hyundai for that matter. so I cannot make direct comparison for you. and I don't even know where the cloest Hyundai dealer is if I were to be interested in testdriving their cars.
However, if you insist that the only people qualified to compare Hyundai vs. BMW or MB or Lexus are the owners of both vehicles, you should also ask yourself if you own BMW, MB or Lexus in addition to your Genesis.
just so to be fair.
"It's noisy, rides rough, and rides too low."
because that 5-series is targeting a different segment of the markets: people who enjoy driving. the Genesis is closer to the LS or the MB in terms of its market segment: comfort first, driving last.
But your approach of comparing cars actually reminds me of some Hyundai commercials where they compared one of their cars (Genesis?) as having more interior space than a 911, having better handling than a Hummer, higher seating position than a Lotus, more horse power than a bike, etc.
or something like that. Both strikes me as funny (about the mental suitability of those making the arguments).
If you want to compare complaints about luxury cars, we can do that. But I don't see where it will get us except having a veritable mountain of complaints on MBs, BMWs, Jaguars, Cadillacs, etc. and relatively few on the Genesis.
If I were to pull up a single complaint about another luxury car, I would get pounded by others in this discussion with comments like, "A sample size of one proves nothing!!!!"
If you can find a car model that is on the road today in any number and has zero complaints about the car, sales, or service, please let me know so I can buy one.
Was actually at the dealer really to give a serious look at the Santa Fe, and they just happened to have a full boat 3.8 Gen on the floor. It seems to be that it must be some sort of prerequisite that all car salesman start off selling what is easy to sell - price. The guy and his 'sales manager' boss were both quite adept at 'pouncing' as you note and could only talk intelligently about how much cheaper this was than that etc etc. - or, of course largely useless warranties. What I really should have heard IMO has nothing to do with price it should have been about what either vehicle had (that wasn't bling) that made it BETTER than the other guy. Sooner or later I guess it'll all catch up with them and they will have to selling on true merit, but for now I'll stay away from Hyundai dealerships and all those salespeople that have IQs lower than their body temperature. For Hyundai to sell what they think is a luxury car they need to at least act like they have one!
The other way to do it is of course to not rely/trust on salespeople to tell you what a car has or doesn't have and how it meets your needs, but figure that out before you go to the dealership (e.g. through research on the Web), then go drive the car to see if you like it. If so, negotiate a price.
If I refused to buy a car from any dealership where the sales reps knew less about a car than I did or only wanted to talk price, and only looked for cars where the sales reps would tell me why I should buy THAT car vs. other cars... I wouldn't have bought many cars over the years.
The sales experience lasts maybe a couple of hours. You'll drive the car, and pay for it, a lot longer than that.
"It seems to be that it must be some sort of prerequisite that all car salesman start off selling what is easy to sell - price."
because there is substantial risk in owning an unproven (brand of) car. every new comer to a new market does that. they want to entice the customers to try new things by under price their products vis-a-vis competition.
the Equus for example would likely be priced $20K below competition. that's not because Hyundai wants to be nice to its customers, or it wants to discount its premium vehicles, etc.
it is that because Hyundai has no other choice, as a new, unestablished entrant, because the market demands it, because the customers need to be compensated for taking on the "Hyundai risk" if you will.
"The sales experience lasts maybe a couple of hours. You'll drive the car, and pay for it, a lot longer than that."
it is a reflection of the organization that is to back your car and service it in the future.
that's why VW didn't opt to sell Audi at a VW dealership, BMW doesn't sell RR in a BMW dealership, Fiat doesn't sell Ferrari / Maserati at a Fiat dealership, Toyota doesn't sell Lexus at a Toyota dealership, etc.
In this segment, customers aren't just buying cars. They are buying an experience, a wholistic experience.
kind of like dining out vs. preparing your own meals, or dining at a nice place vs. dining at a fast food joint. You just have to experience it to understand it, to borrow a line from some proud Hyundai "luxury" car owners.
thats not what I was trying to say, I'm sure they are competent salesman when it comes to actually sitting down and working out a deal but to be at the side door of your car before you even have a chance to get out of it is absolutely unacceptable no matter what dealership your at and completely unprofessional
this is the worth dealership experience I ever had with salesman being up your butt, not leaving you alone, and not listening when you ask them to leave you alone
trust me, the general public isn't completely stupid, we know how the car buying process works, when we are interested in doing something we know you need a salesman to do it and well come over to you, we don't need you harassing us to point we can't even look at the cars in peace and are forced to leave; I was never treated this way at the Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, or MB dealerships I visited when I was car shopping; they weren't standing outside with their hands in their pockets, they didn't run up to my car before I had a chance to get out, and even once I came into the showroom they waited a few minutes to come up to me and asked me politely if I had any questions I could come over and see them!
didn't get any kind of nice treatment by the Hyundai dealership! in fact, they not only didn't listen to what I said they were rude and several times interrupted me when I finally was ready to asks some questions, etc! it really was a bad reflection on Hyundai, but like I said this is my local dealership, I've never been to any other one so I don't know if this is common practice or not but it was the lousiest dealership experience I've ever had of all the different automakers I've either owned or test drove over the years!
also, when your told by a customer to leave them a lone and let them look around, you respect their wishes, you don't continue to harass them when they are trying to look at cars!!
"also, when your told by a customer to leave them a lone and let them look around, you respect their wishes, you don't continue to harass them when they are trying to look at cars!!"
they behave that way because of their customers, because of the market segment(s) that they serve.
I have testdrove a 535 wagon for a week, a Q7 over a weekend, a XC70 over a week and got a brand new X3 as a loaner car. In the end, I bought a XC70 and the X3. When I got my XC70, I did the entire transaction via faxes because I was out of town and the dealer towed the vehicle to my house on the day of my return, with a gift basket.
I paid dearly for the services but that's a service that I enjoy and enjoy paying for.
I would walk out of a dealership like that also. Fortunately, my local Hyundai shop is much more pleasant and professional. In fact, I haven't had a bad sales experience at a dealership for many years... not since I was totally ignored by a Honda dealership in 2000. Sales floor full of reps sitting around, doing nothing... not one offered to assist me. I bought an Elantra instead of the Civic.
My favorite "worst" experience though was when I went with my friend to a Chevy dealership in 1979. He was looking for an inexpensive car and went to look at the Chevette. I owned a Corolla at the time. As we were looking at a Chevette on the showfloor, I made a side comment to my friend about the shoddy workmanship on the car. The saleswoman overheard my remark and literally exploded, really went crazy, ranted about the great quality of the Chevette etc. etc. The sales manager came out, apologized, and found another sales rep for us. Every other car sales experience I've had was pretty tame compared to that one.
P.S. My friend did buy a Chevette, but not from that dealership. He liked to tell people, "I drive a 'Vette."
I have experienced the wonderful "luxury" dealership experience: BMW. Very impressive building (3 stories). Lots of cars parked inside (but lots outside too). Very nice lounge with a cappuccino machine, leather couches etc. Service area is not that great, you can easily get run over in there. But they do wash cars they service (so does my Hyundai dealer, btw). Nice shop next to the payment desk, so you can pick up overpriced BMW trinkets when you pay for your overpriced BMW services.
Yup, quite an experience. But for me, when I buy a car the experience I am buying is a DRIVING experience. All I want and expect from the dealership, especially the service area, is competence, professionalism, and a customer-focused attitude. I have received that kind of experience in many non-luxury dealerships, including my local Hyundai dealership. That's all I need. If you want more and don't mind paying for it, go for it.
The example you gave I can honestly state that I have seen in dealerships of just about every brand (ok for exotic cars I can't say that as I never really go into those dealerships). As for the Hyundai dealerships near me none of them approach you as soon as you get there, its always after you are in the lot or the showroom for a short time.
Don't damn Hyundai for the actions of a few of their dealerships.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I am not to sure that there is a risk with Hyundai. Mine went over 175K miles with no issues. My wifes is near 150K with no issues. My daughters is about 125K with no issues. I know a few others with high mileage Hyundais that have been trouble free while I know few, if any, that have any real issues.
I'll take a Hyundai any day knowing full well that there is no more risk in it than in buying a Honda or a Toyota.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I've even told these low life Hyundai salesman to please leave me alone and that I wasn't interested in buying and they still couldn't leave me alone!!! its such a shame they represent Hyundai so poorly!
Salesmen are trained to reciprocate the vibes they get from the customer. Try being nice.
All seriousness aside, I've had 2 different Hyundai salesmen tell me their main job is fetching keys and coffee. Most of their customers come to them well educated on the cars. (Of course, they may be trying to flatter me). They just give me the keys and walk away, telling me to holler if I need anything. I think you are perfectly capable of negotiating the key and coffee treatment. Try it, and enjoy yourself.
Yeah, I know, I am one irrational guy. I mean, I have got to be crazy to think that $900 is overpriced to replace a fuel pump, or $1000 is overpriced to fix a balky sunshade on a moonroof--and that's just the part. But the service writer was very polite when he gave me those prices... with a straight face.
I said it snotty in my post, but I did ask them politely when I was in person, I said, "Can you please give me a chance to look some of the cars and if I have any questions I'll come and find you, thank you!"
Thats is exactly how I said it and it still wasn't clear enough in plain English
Please don't make excuses for shotty car salesman!!
However, if you insist that the only people qualified to compare Hyundai vs. BMW or MB or Lexus are the owners of both vehicles, you should also ask yourself if you own BMW, MB or Lexus in addition to your Genesis.
Like I said, don't ask me.
I'm obviously not as qualified as an owner of both. Not saying one HAS to own both to have a worthy opinion, but it that's the opinions I value most.
Please don't make excuses for shotty car salesman!!
My salesman weren't shoddy. If they were, I would go straight to the manager. Those kids come and go, and are unimportant (key fetchers, remember?). They don't really represent the dealer.
Really, I can't imagine a car salesman refusing to give you the keys and get scarce. They know that all you want to do is drive the car and get a feel for the handling and interior. They know it does them no good to talk to you until it's time to negotiate price.
I would have to disagree again Millwood. "Overpriced" is not as subjective as you think it is.
Look up how much it costs to build a vehicle and how much it is sold for. If the disparity between the two is very significant, I'd say it's overpriced.
If the price to build and the price that it is selling for is less significant, I'd say it's not overpriced. So we can do it by percentages or profit margin. Is that subjective? The value of abstract art is subjective. How beautiful your wife or girlfriend is, may be subjective. Whether something is overpriced seems to be more objective I think.
If you want to find out, I would bet that Lexus makes more money per car sold than does Hyundai. Do you really think the Lexus GS is worth $12,000-16,000 more than the Hyundai Genesis? I would say, the Genesis' out-the-door price is closer to the cost of manufacturing the car than that of the GS.
Perception and reality are two different things Millwood. Perception is subjective. Profit is objective. Lexus is a high profit/lower volume manufacturer. Hyundai is a lower profit per car/higher volume manufacturer. Lexus depends on higher profits per car. Hyundai depends on higher volume of cars sold for their profits. Your reasoning is highly based on your perception of Hyundai and not based on facts. Please try to be more reasonable when you comment instead of just stating baseless opinions.
"Look up how much it costs to build a vehicle and how much it is sold for. If the disparity between the two is very significant, I'd say it's overpriced. "
I think your notion of "being overpriced" by comparing revenue vs. cost is unique. Just because something is of high cost (due to inefficiencies, or small scale of economy, or poor production techniques, etc.) doesn't make that thing "less overpriced".
For example, many exotic cars have very high costs of production because of the issues we mentioned above. does that make them a better value than Genesis?
or the more established luxury brands like MB, BMW, Jaq. or Rover, etc. they were all losing massive amount of money in the early 1990s, and some of them still do today. Does that make their cars "less overpriced"?
Most people would argue that what's overpriced is a comparision between value and price. a high priced car delivering exception value can be underpriced, while a low priced car delivering nothing but headaches is overpriced.
While price is perfectly objective, value is entirely subjective.
so I was quite surprised to hear that someone would argue that what's overpriced is "objective".
" I would say, the Genesis' out-the-door price is closer to the cost of manufacturing the car than that of the GS."
but why does Hyundai's cost basis matter in this discussion? Just because you picked up a diamond on the ground (your cost basis = zero) doesn't mean you have to sell it to me at a low price to avoid being called "overpricing" the diamond.
the same holds true here. Hyundai is delivering a value to its customers and in return for a price. the only frame of reference here is "do I get more for my money", from the custoemr's point of view.
well, then, maybe you can tell your Genesis advocates that they have no basis in proclaiming their hyundais to be such a value vs. the other luxury brands if they have no experience there.
Most people would argue that what's overpriced is a comparision between value and price. a high priced car delivering exception value can be underpriced, while a low priced car delivering nothing but headaches is overpriced.
That's something we agree on 100%. That's why I now stay away from European cars. They're expensive to buy, and cost an arm and leg to maintain... a double whammy. Hyundais are inexpensive to buy, and cost practically nothing to maintain. In 4 years, my Sonata's maintenance has cost $2 for a tail light bulb. I still have a year and 15K miles on the bumper-to-bumper.
maybe you can tell your Genesis advocates that they have no basis in proclaiming their hyundais to be such a value vs. the other luxury brands if they have no experience there
I value their opinions, as I do yours. The opinions of people that own both cars carry more weight. That's all I'm saying. People that have owned both "old luxury" cars and the Genesis tend to opine that it measures up. I can't think of a better testimonial, can you?
Look up how much it costs to build a vehicle and how much it is sold for. If the disparity between the two is very significant, I'd say it's overpriced would it surprise you then, to know that most manufactured items (not just cars) will have manufacturing (parts and labor) costs no more than half of what it is sold for. Will depend on industry and there are other costs , of course, but in the case of cars, for example, the luxury models will normally be well below half. Just think, you are putting a solid $20k directly into Hyundai's pockets by simply buying that Genesis Or how about let's say $40k in Lexus's pocket when you spend $75k on an LS. Exactly how much profit is objectively too much? My point I guess is this - nothing can be overpriced if that is what it really sells for. And nor can anything really be underpriced either - the Genesis is priced precisely where it needs to be - to sell. And so is the LS, S, and 7er etc etc. You may subjectively consider that LS to be overpriced and FTM that Genesis to be fairly priced, but you also need to know that both cars are worth precisely what they sell for - no more no less
Comments
speculation #1.
"I bet truth be told, most Genesis owners feel loyalty to no badge."
speculation #2.
Hopefully the above behavior isn't representative of that of a typical Genesis / Hyundai owners.
Good! Go drive a Genesis and give us an objective review.
I am going to take you on that offer.
=============1st Google search results================
Even though we, along with most of the media, do not consider the Hyundai EQUUS to be YET in the same class as its classic competitors (BMW, Mercedes, Lexus), we certainly need to ask you these questions: Does the EQUUS really stand a chance in front of the new 7 Series?
And to go even deeper in the analysis: would a $100,000 vehicle change your opinion of a brand, in this case, the Hyundai brand?
At the end, let’s see how the two cars compare to each other, from a design point of view.
=============2nd from google==================
No, it's not quite as nice inside the Equus as in the interiors of the luxury sedans it has targeted in the marketplace, but it's close, and the Equus should undercut those sedans by $20,000 or more.
Looks Like a Lexus
===========================================
well, you get the message.
hopefully.
I have never denied the Genesis competes in the M/GS sector . There is no "finally", but the drama queen act is amusing anyway :P
For the moment, I like driving a nice car and having no automotive debt
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I wonder what the next generation will look like. With H now having a facility in Germany, and K hiring a German stylist...maybe it will evolve.
If that's the case, you're wise not to go drive one. Owners are saying that once you drive one, you get bitten. If you would come back on Edmunds as a Genesis owner, it would make blood shoot out of Captain's and Milwood's eyes.
I ran across this:
"just took delivery of my 2010 genesis v8 sedan with tech pkg,,So far I am very impressed with this fine car, I also have a bmw 7 series and this car is just as nice for more than half the price"
I give 10X more weight to actual owners of both cars than the mush-mouthed automotive press (present company excepted, of course).
I'm hearing from many owners of BMW, MB, and even Lexus saying their Genesis is every bit the car as the above. Who are you going to ask? Don't ask me, Backy, Captain, or Consumer Reports. Ask the owner who has owned both cars!
I don't recall ever riding in a 7'er. However, my Son's 5 Series wasn't even close to the Genesis in my opinion. It's noisy, rides rough, and rides too low. It's was a white elephant, too. Always in the shop for this or that. It probably handled a tad better than the Genesis (I didn't get to put either through any handling tests), but serious handling challenges probably make up less than 1% of a car's daily use.
Oh the people at the service desk were nice, the technicians OTOH were horrible. They order a radio and set up an appointment without checking to see if the radio is OK, then when I get it in, they find the radio is damaged, get a replacement brought in, never checked to see if the radio in the box was the correct one, then hold the car 2 more days while another radio is shipped in, finally get the car back and the steering wheel is damaged, then another trip in to get that replaced only to have them reset everything in the car, and you call that good service? How many Lexus, MB, BMW owners have had this happen to them? Heck even Ford has better service than that!
Hyundai makes a very good car, no doubt about that, but until they improve their service, they will never make it into the elite class of automaker.
Oh I forgot to mention, the VC never drove right after I got it back, it developed a flat spot on acceleration from a stop, and it never had that problem until I got it back from service.
Yes it does. The Fusion is actually a very good car, handles very well, is very well put together, so why wouldn't a smart buyer get rid of an expensive car for one, that maybe it isn't a "luxurious" inside as the expensive one, but handles well, has a good reputation for reliability, and costs far less. We are still in a recession, so cutting expenses by trading in the higher cost car, which is more than likely out of warranty, and repairs are so very expensive on once the warranty runs out, is a smart thing to do.
So you have an S600 MB Sedan, it is out of warranty, and the alternator pukes, now you have a car that doesn't run, and just the part alone costs $1500, add in the labor to install it, and now what do you have?
I can reasonably see Luxury car buyers going to a Ford, they do make some very good cars now, the Taurus SHO is one hot car, Fusion is Car of the Year, the Fiesta is coming out soon and will be a hot seller, it already is in Europe. Ford may not have "Luxury" cars, but they do make a damned fine automobile.
Not trying to diminish the competency of the Fusion (or any H product)...but I don't know if they are cross shopped, even in the used market.
I'd never be crazy enough to buy an S600...if I bought one, I would be in a position to drop $1500 and not care
Although if I did buy one, I could offer up PR-style extravagant claims like toye etc
don't be so sure - seeing it/sitting in it in a showroom was just fine if only I could get the accompanying idiotic 20 something Hyundai salesman to shut up. The Hyundai dealerships around here (there are several) are easily the most annoying place to look at cars IMO. Even more irritating than the Honda/Toyota 'let me do you a favor' approach.
But, to get me to actually buy one - think that would have to do something about what I would regard as a go-cart ride. Like many Americans, I'll freely admit to a preference to soft boulevard rides and really can't appreciate a firmer ride unless, of course it's done like BMW's. I'm too old to be playing speed racer in any case.
seeing salesman standing around outside and then pouncing on you before you even have a chance to look around is the #1 sign of a bad dealership - even if I ever got a Hyundai I would never do business with this dealership - hopefully, for Hyundai's sake they aren't all like that but there are not many around to begin with, at least where I live so that kind of dealership experience is really going to hurt their sales!
I've even gone in on a Sunday to have some piece and quiet when I look and there have been 1 or 2 salesman dressed in plain clothing hiding out on a Sunday and then coming up and brow beating you about coming in and see them - I've been thinking of reporting them to Hyundai HQs because I just can't stand low lives like that - I never even saw this kind of low class treatment at my local GM dealership which really makes Hyundai look bad!!
I've even told these low life Hyundai salesman to please leave me alone and that I wasn't interested in buying and they still couldn't leave me alone!!! its such a shame they represent Hyundai so poorly!
me too: fresh off google, the very first link if you type "Genesis complaints".
http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/hyundai-genesis-c166980.html
enjoy!
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to save you time, some short blurbs
f. We could hear abnormal engine noise at low speed.
g. Also, right side mirror was not working properly.
f. Regarding the engine noise, it is very popular and common question among New Genesis Owners, so the dealership recommended us to bring in for free of of charge Saturday Clinic.
i. I asked them to cancel my contract due their ignorant, unpleasant, unprofessional answers and attitudes. The dealership told me that they will call me after the discussion with their managements.
j. The dealership called and told us they figured out how that happened. They found the car from san Diego area and they drove it to the dealership and forgot to recalculate and adjust the contract accordingly. They told us to come in for the exchange.
I have yet to know of anyone owning a Genesis, or a Hyundai for that matter. so I cannot make direct comparison for you. and I don't even know where the cloest Hyundai dealer is if I were to be interested in testdriving their cars.
However, if you insist that the only people qualified to compare Hyundai vs. BMW or MB or Lexus are the owners of both vehicles, you should also ask yourself if you own BMW, MB or Lexus in addition to your Genesis.
just so to be fair.
"It's noisy, rides rough, and rides too low."
because that 5-series is targeting a different segment of the markets: people who enjoy driving. the Genesis is closer to the LS or the MB in terms of its market segment: comfort first, driving last.
But your approach of comparing cars actually reminds me of some Hyundai commercials where they compared one of their cars (Genesis?) as having more interior space than a 911, having better handling than a Hummer, higher seating position than a Lotus, more horse power than a bike, etc.
or something like that. Both strikes me as funny (about the mental suitability of those making the arguments).
If I were to pull up a single complaint about another luxury car, I would get pounded by others in this discussion with comments like, "A sample size of one proves nothing!!!!"
If you can find a car model that is on the road today in any number and has zero complaints about the car, sales, or service, please let me know so I can buy one.
if a S600 driver is worried about putting enough money to get an alternator replaced, s/he has gotten the wrong car,
"I can reasonably see Luxury car buyers going to a Ford,"
I am sure you will have some S600 owners doing that.
I would be surprised if there are many of them on this planet.
It seems to be that it must be some sort of prerequisite that all car salesman start off selling what is easy to sell - price. The guy and his 'sales manager' boss were both quite adept at 'pouncing' as you note and could only talk intelligently about how much cheaper this was than that etc etc. - or, of course largely useless warranties. What I really should have heard IMO has nothing to do with price it should have been about what either vehicle had (that wasn't bling) that made it BETTER than the other guy.
Sooner or later I guess it'll all catch up with them and they will have to selling on true merit, but for now I'll stay away from Hyundai dealerships and all those salespeople that have IQs lower than their body temperature.
If I refused to buy a car from any dealership where the sales reps knew less about a car than I did or only wanted to talk price, and only looked for cars where the sales reps would tell me why I should buy THAT car vs. other cars... I wouldn't have bought many cars over the years.
The sales experience lasts maybe a couple of hours. You'll drive the car, and pay for it, a lot longer than that.
because there is substantial risk in owning an unproven (brand of) car. every new comer to a new market does that. they want to entice the customers to try new things by under price their products vis-a-vis competition.
the Equus for example would likely be priced $20K below competition. that's not because Hyundai wants to be nice to its customers, or it wants to discount its premium vehicles, etc.
it is that because Hyundai has no other choice, as a new, unestablished entrant, because the market demands it, because the customers need to be compensated for taking on the "Hyundai risk" if you will.
it is a reflection of the organization that is to back your car and service it in the future.
that's why VW didn't opt to sell Audi at a VW dealership, BMW doesn't sell RR in a BMW dealership, Fiat doesn't sell Ferrari / Maserati at a Fiat dealership, Toyota doesn't sell Lexus at a Toyota dealership, etc.
In this segment, customers aren't just buying cars. They are buying an experience, a wholistic experience.
kind of like dining out vs. preparing your own meals, or dining at a nice place vs. dining at a fast food joint. You just have to experience it to understand it, to borrow a line from some proud Hyundai "luxury" car owners.
this is the worth dealership experience I ever had with salesman being up your butt, not leaving you alone, and not listening when you ask them to leave you alone
trust me, the general public isn't completely stupid, we know how the car buying process works, when we are interested in doing something we know you need a salesman to do it and well come over to you, we don't need you harassing us to point we can't even look at the cars in peace and are forced to leave; I was never treated this way at the Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, or MB dealerships I visited when I was car shopping; they weren't standing outside with their hands in their pockets, they didn't run up to my car before I had a chance to get out, and even once I came into the showroom they waited a few minutes to come up to me and asked me politely if I had any questions I could come over and see them!
didn't get any kind of nice treatment by the Hyundai dealership! in fact, they not only didn't listen to what I said they were rude and several times interrupted me when I finally was ready to asks some questions, etc! it really was a bad reflection on Hyundai, but like I said this is my local dealership, I've never been to any other one so I don't know if this is common practice or not but it was the lousiest dealership experience I've ever had of all the different automakers I've either owned or test drove over the years!
also, when your told by a customer to leave them a lone and let them look around, you respect their wishes, you don't continue to harass them when they are trying to look at cars!!
they behave that way because of their customers, because of the market segment(s) that they serve.
I have testdrove a 535 wagon for a week, a Q7 over a weekend, a XC70 over a week and got a brand new X3 as a loaner car. In the end, I bought a XC70 and the X3. When I got my XC70, I did the entire transaction via faxes because I was out of town and the dealer towed the vehicle to my house on the day of my return, with a gift basket.
I paid dearly for the services but that's a service that I enjoy and enjoy paying for.
My favorite "worst" experience though was when I went with my friend to a Chevy dealership in 1979. He was looking for an inexpensive car and went to look at the Chevette. I owned a Corolla at the time. As we were looking at a Chevette on the showfloor, I made a side comment to my friend about the shoddy workmanship on the car. The saleswoman overheard my remark and literally exploded, really went crazy, ranted about the great quality of the Chevette etc. etc. The sales manager came out, apologized, and found another sales rep for us. Every other car sales experience I've had was pretty tame compared to that one.
P.S. My friend did buy a Chevette, but not from that dealership. He liked to tell people, "I drive a 'Vette."
Yup, quite an experience. But for me, when I buy a car the experience I am buying is a DRIVING experience. All I want and expect from the dealership, especially the service area, is competence, professionalism, and a customer-focused attitude. I have received that kind of experience in many non-luxury dealerships, including my local Hyundai dealership. That's all I need. If you want more and don't mind paying for it, go for it.
Don't damn Hyundai for the actions of a few of their dealerships.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I'll take a Hyundai any day knowing full well that there is no more risk in it than in buying a Honda or a Toyota.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
what is "overpriced" is quite subjective. For example, the Genesis is way overpriced in my view, and the view of countless others who didn't buy it.
but, hi, that's your money and you should be able to spend it the way you see fit, however irrational I may think it is.
Salesmen are trained to reciprocate the vibes they get from the customer. Try being nice.
All seriousness aside, I've had 2 different Hyundai salesmen tell me their main job is fetching keys and coffee. Most of their customers come to them well educated on the cars. (Of course, they may be trying to flatter me). They just give me the keys
and walk away, telling me to holler if I need anything. I think you are perfectly capable of negotiating the key and coffee treatment. Try it, and enjoy yourself.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Thats is exactly how I said it and it still wasn't clear enough in plain English
Please don't make excuses for shotty car salesman!!
Like I said, don't ask me.
I'm obviously not as qualified as an owner of both. Not saying one HAS to own both to have a worthy opinion, but it that's the opinions I value most.
My salesman weren't shoddy. If they were, I would go straight to the manager. Those kids come and go, and are unimportant (key fetchers, remember?). They don't really represent the dealer.
Really, I can't imagine a car salesman refusing to give you the keys and get scarce. They know that all you want to do is drive the car and get a feel for the handling and interior. They know it does them no good to talk to you until it's time to negotiate price.
Look up how much it costs to build a vehicle and how much it is sold for. If the disparity between the two is very significant, I'd say it's overpriced.
If the price to build and the price that it is selling for is less significant, I'd say it's not overpriced. So we can do it by percentages or profit margin. Is that subjective? The value of abstract art is subjective. How beautiful your wife or girlfriend is, may be subjective. Whether something is overpriced seems to be more objective I think.
If you want to find out, I would bet that Lexus makes more money per car sold than does Hyundai. Do you really think the Lexus GS is worth $12,000-16,000 more than the Hyundai Genesis? I would say, the Genesis' out-the-door price is closer to the cost of manufacturing the car than that of the GS.
Perception and reality are two different things Millwood. Perception is subjective. Profit is objective. Lexus is a high profit/lower volume manufacturer. Hyundai is a lower profit per car/higher volume manufacturer. Lexus depends on higher profits per car. Hyundai depends on higher volume of cars sold for their profits. Your reasoning is highly based on your perception of Hyundai and not based on facts. Please try to be more reasonable when you comment instead of just stating baseless opinions.
I think your notion of "being overpriced" by comparing revenue vs. cost is unique. Just because something is of high cost (due to inefficiencies, or small scale of economy, or poor production techniques, etc.) doesn't make that thing "less overpriced".
For example, many exotic cars have very high costs of production because of the issues we mentioned above. does that make them a better value than Genesis?
or the more established luxury brands like MB, BMW, Jaq. or Rover, etc. they were all losing massive amount of money in the early 1990s, and some of them still do today. Does that make their cars "less overpriced"?
Most people would argue that what's overpriced is a comparision between value and price. a high priced car delivering exception value can be underpriced, while a low priced car delivering nothing but headaches is overpriced.
While price is perfectly objective, value is entirely subjective.
so I was quite surprised to hear that someone would argue that what's overpriced is "objective".
" I would say, the Genesis' out-the-door price is closer to the cost of manufacturing the car than that of the GS."
but why does Hyundai's cost basis matter in this discussion? Just because you picked up a diamond on the ground (your cost basis = zero) doesn't mean you have to sell it to me at a low price to avoid being called "overpricing" the diamond.
the same holds true here. Hyundai is delivering a value to its customers and in return for a price. the only frame of reference here is "do I get more for my money", from the custoemr's point of view.
well, then, maybe you can tell your Genesis advocates that they have no basis in proclaiming their hyundais to be such a value vs. the other luxury brands if they have no experience there.
That's something we agree on 100%. That's why I now stay away from European cars. They're expensive to buy, and cost an arm and leg to maintain... a double whammy. Hyundais are inexpensive to buy, and cost practically nothing to maintain. In 4 years, my Sonata's maintenance has cost $2 for a tail light bulb. I still have a year and 15K miles on the bumper-to-bumper.
I value their opinions, as I do yours. The opinions of people that own both cars carry more weight. That's all I'm saying. People that have owned both "old luxury" cars and the Genesis tend to opine that it measures up. I can't think of a better testimonial, can you?
would it surprise you then, to know that most manufactured items (not just cars) will have manufacturing (parts and labor) costs no more than half of what it is sold for. Will depend on industry and there are other costs , of course, but in the case of cars, for example, the luxury models will normally be well below half. Just think, you are putting a solid $20k directly into Hyundai's pockets by simply buying that Genesis Or how about let's say $40k in Lexus's pocket when you spend $75k on an LS. Exactly how much profit is objectively too much?
My point I guess is this - nothing can be overpriced if that is what it really sells for. And nor can anything really be underpriced either - the Genesis is priced precisely where it needs to be - to sell. And so is the LS, S, and 7er etc etc. You may subjectively consider that LS to be overpriced and FTM that Genesis to be fairly priced, but you also need to know that both cars are worth precisely what they sell for - no more no less
and that's where we DISagree.
you were arguing that the Genesis was not overpriced because its costs are high;
you were arguing that "overprice" is objective.
and if you agreed that "overprice" is a price vs. value comparison, you wouldn't have said any of that.