I received Email confirmation from Mark Roberts Honda of Bartlesville, Okla. that this dealer will sell any Honda, except the Odyssey and the S-200 convertible, for $316 over invoice.
Write to: adrian@markroberts.com, or Phone: 1-800-375-5377
We did not go into dealer add-ons, but I'm thinking this is where they hope to add to their profit. However, it's up to anyone who is interested to negotiate in his best interests.
Hannah10 - Most likely, your dealer will have a contract with a local company. I know that mine has a contract for both alarms and remote starters. Going through the dealer is often expensive, so shop around first.
Crvic - When an Acura service tech dinged my wife's TL, they had Dentwizard do the repair. It looks great. You'd have to know that there was a dent to find it.
Onelife - On the EX model, the carpets are standard. The rear mud guards are standard on all CR-Vs, it's the front ones that are an option. The hard spare cover must have been added by the dealer. Just another way for them to pad their profit margin.
The oil filter come with my 02' CR-V 2-4L engine is different in size with the conventional Honda oil filter stock at Honda Parts, It's smaller and taller. Anybody boy has information on this.
Congrats, Ethan. Liberty's had some bad press lately, with two publications reporting roll overs (Autoweek and a European magazine). I find that sort of embarassing, given DCX had the same problems with the A class and the Smart. Guess they didn't learn their lesson.
That's odd, why are the rear mud guards standard, and the fronts an option? It seems to me that the rears protect the car behind you, while the fronts protect yours.
Hi Folks -- I was thinking about the real time AWD on the CR-V over the holidays, and I realized that even with all the research I have done on this feature, there is one thing I still don't know -- and that is, for how long is power transferred to the real wheels once activated? With the double pump and fluid system detecting the wheel slip, presumably once the rear wheels start moving, the front wheels stop slipping, and the rotation speed of both the front and the back wheels equalizes. I would think this happens very quickly -- dropping the pressure differential in the system to zero, and shutting down the transfer mechanism unless there is some controller to keep the power going to the rear wheels for a period of time. Does anybody have any insight into how long power is transferred to the the rear wheels? Of course, it is always possible that do I not have a good grasp of the way the RT AWD really works...
TrilliumSteve - It remains active until there is no longer a difference between axle speeds. It shuts off as quickly as it engages. Yes, you have the gist of it.
Other FAQs... I'd also note that it's variable (the greater the slippage, the greater the amount of power sent to the of axle). Also, yes, it does work in reverse.
and so far all is looooovvve. She's chianti red, LX 2WD (no name yet--any suggestions appreciated).
A few comments: seems to have good pickup and smooth shifting (auto). Easy to get in and out but step-over is a little high. Don't think running boards would help; might even get in the way. It's ok for me (5'8") but short-legged people might have trouble. Great headlights. The audio system sounds good, but I'm not that picky and have been used to a *lot* of road noise in previous '87 Toyota. Think my bike will fit in the back with no trouble. The bin under the table holds a lot of odds and ends. Handle shifter is a little awkward--why don't they just figure out how to do it with buttons? Seats are wide enough but could use a little side bolstering for corners. Like the tan interior but the pattern is still ugly. At least while I'm sitting on it I don't have to look at it. (Must have been designed by a man.) Tossed a few floral cushions in the back to counteract the effect. ;-)
Ride is smooth but jarring over bumps. I think they didn't air down the tires like I asked them to, so will have to check that. Love the chunky steering wheel--usually I have to get a cover to make them thicker. Cup holders in tray don't hold an extra large take-out cup.
Visibility is pretty good, but USE THOSE SIDE MIRRORS! Wish it had side airbags. When is Honda gonna figure out how to *really* build customer loyalty?
I thought about "Rosa" or "Rosita", which are Italian/Spanish for red. My first idea was "Hannibal" since the color is "a nice key-an-tee" but that seemed like inviting bad car karma. Could be "Clarice" but that's a mouthful also. Don't know the Japanese for red.
This is a fun car to drive. I love that new car ride! Thanks to everyone here and to Edmunds for lots of inside info. It really helped me make up my mind.
I'm considering the CR-V, but have noticed that dealers in Tampa are charging MSRP or higher. I went to carsdirect.com, and they actually have it for $1000 OVER MSRP.
Anyone in here from Tampa? Any luck? ANy help would be appreciated.
For the life of me,I do not understand Honda. They still must think its 1975. A few points that really bug me: 1. When will they realize that most people want and should have ABS and make them standard on all vehicles? To make them unavailable on the LX is downright foolish. There's a reason every BMW,Mercedes,Lexus,and Infiniti and even many less expensive makes have them as standard equipment. 2.Side air bags, $250 option. Please ,this is 2002 not 1992. 3.Honda makes excellent vehicles. But so do Toyota,Mazda and a few others. They are not the only game in town,but for some reason the dealers believe this. 4.Someday,their take it or leave it at MSRP attitude will come back to haunt them. And I hope all those responsible for their pricing decisions end up on the unemployment line. 5. Did I say Honda makes very nice well made vehicles with great resale values. But there is more to it than that.
Spend some time with your new buggy before naming it. Some owners have let their cars go annonymous for years before giving it a good name. Here are a few stories. One member over at the CR-V IX didn't name his until he began modifying it. He posted pics after adding fog lights and a light bar. Someone remarked that it resembled "the mothership", and so it was named. Lots of folks use the color as part of the name. There's Texas Blue Betty, Milano Bambyno, Black Buc, Albinogator... I like the play on Chianti that you and Juice have going. Others go after the function of the vehicle. There's the Dobermobile (used to transport dobermans) and Little Mule as examples. Mine is named "Buster". The name calls to my mind the Norman Rockwell illustrations with the scrappy-looking little kids. That's the same impression I get from the CR-V.
Anyway, those are just examples to get yourself started. Wait until you find one that you really like.
BTW, side airbags are an option on the LX (although not cheap). Was the expense a problem, or did you not know this?
- Sure, BMW,Mercedes, Lexus et al have ABS standard. And when they offer a compact SUV for under $20K AND equip it with ABS, I'll bet Honda will too. ABS isn't free - and since, as someone else (Varmit?) has already noted, the ABS-free LX is the best-selling CR-V trim level, many people seem to get along fine without it.
- I still don't understand why people complain about Honda dealers selling Ody's at MSRP. The sell it for MSRP because they can get it - people are buying them at MSRP because they see the value in them at that price. If you don't see the value, then don't buy it!
Here's a question: if Honda raised the Odyssey MSRP by $1,000, and dealers then offered it at $1,000 below MSRP, would you be happier?
After seeing the Canadian version of the 2002 CR-V, I want it badly. The body colored cladding, etc. makes it look more refined and less "tough" IMHO.The dealer did not think warrantee would be any problem; however, they CAN NOT sell to any one who does not have a Canadian address/residence. He said the Canadian emission safety standards are equal to/greater than the U.S's.
My kid sister lives in Canada, so I could have her buy it and then "sell it" to me. Does anyone know how I can find out FOR CERTAIN if a Canadian vehicle warrantee would be honored by U.S. dealer's? I know Honda's rarely are troublesome but at $20K its something that can not be over looked.
When the parents decided the '02 CRV (EX, Auto) was what they wanted, they put me to work to get them the car they wanted at the right price. I sent about a dozen faxes out to dealers in CT and NY. And the best offer we got was $100 below MSRP. And that was the ONLY offer we got below MSRP. And that guy didn't have the color the parents wanted (Chianti Red), so we had to take it at MSRP from the dealer where we test drove it. To be delivered in February.
Hard to believe anyone could be getting in at $500-700 over invoice as a few have claimed (other than at Mark Roberts Honda, as several people have mentioned that), while only one dealer in Connecticut and Westchester County, NY was willing to go under MSRP at all.
On the one hand, I can't blame the Honda dealers for charging whatever they can, but as mentioned by rutger3, I don't like the arrogance that most of these Honda dealers display. Their's is a very "take-it-or-leave-it" attitude, evidenced by telling you over the phone, when you're just calling to see if they have any CRVs in stock, that they're going at list and are booked up until Feb. As if to say, "don't waste our time unless you can live with these conditions." The CRV is for my parents, so if they're happy with what they're getting for what they're paying, great. (Not to say that I'm unhappy, I think the CRV is a fine vehicle and even at MSRP is a decent value). But I'm going to be wary of ever buying a Honda for myself, just based on dealer behavior.
QUESTION FOR EREY, DOES YOUR FOG LIGHT SWITCH IN YOU INTERIOR ILLUMINATE AT NIGHT LIKE THE CRUISE CONTROL DOES, I ORDERED MY FOG LIGHTS & THEY ARE NOT IN YET, THEY SAID ABOUT A MONTH, I CALL MY CRV ONYX, THANKS BOB346
If you don't currently own a Honda: Call your local Honda dealer. Ask for the phone number for the Honda of America District Office. Call them and explain what you want to do.
If you have a Honda, look up the phone number in the owners manual. Call them and explain what you want to do.
Bob346 - Yes. The fog switch illuminates at night much like the cruise.
Hannah10 - The V is an EX 4WD Automatic. Like I indicated, I selected, the fog, running board, front mud guards, rear cargo cover, and the metal look trim interior for a grand total of $23,430.00 plus taxes of course.
There was a lot of discussion on that topic about a year ago on the MDX board. I think the consensus was that US dealers wouldn't honor the Canadian warranty. Potentially a problem if you don't live in Detroit or someplace else on the border.
Would a vacation rental be sufficient Canadian address for the dealer to sell to a U.S. citizen?
Some posters thought that the savings on the Candian vehicle more than covered the cost of a third-party warranty. Then again, that might have all been speculation. I don't remember anyone actually doing it.
I think in Canada the cheapest Forester, the L model, is about the same price as the mid-line CR-V (the EX). But I don't think the L has side airbags, 6-CD with cassette, EBD, or alloys.
I don't have a problem with dealers demanding full MSRP for the CR-V. The cars are slowly trickling onto the lots compared to the strong demand right now. It's a homerun and everyone knows it. This will change once supply catches up to demand. Since most of the places here in Cincinnati are pre-sold into late February on certain colors, we may be looking at late summer before consumers have power again.
I firmly believe Honda takes pride in the fact that their cars hold their value better than rest, as measured by ALG's residual value multipliers. This multiplier is based on MSRP, not negotiated price. If they set their MSRP artificially high, ALG would compensate by lowering their multiplier into the rest of the crowd.
I noticed on CR's website, the 2002 CR-V didn't get rated in the min-ute category. It must not have been ready to make the cutoff. They ranked the RAV4 the best in that category.
Just comparing raw specs, it looks like the new-V would have beaten the RAV4 hands down.
Just a few thoughts about buying in Canada and bringing it to the U.S. You might want to check with your DMV. Since the vehicle will not have a certificate of origin needed to title there may be a problem. I also stopped by a Honda dealer in southern Alberta with a friend who had just purchased an Ody stateside. The dealer said the same thing you did about not being able to sell to someone from the states.
Even though emmissions might be as good or better, they may not be what EPA mandates in terms of hardware. I used to pick up cars in my college days at the pier in Long Beach and drive them to a warehouse where all they did was take very fine imported gray market cars and bring them into compliance with U.S. standards. These were German autos (Porsche's and Mercede's). Ahhh... what memories. A broke college student driving $50-70,000 autos on the freeways of LA.
There were a number of things that had to be done including tweaking the emmissions, replacing tail lights, reinforcing doors, replacing odo to read MPH v. KPH, etc. I know the Canadian version is a lot closer to our standards but check for surprises. The biggest one may be related to 'paper' as in not having the right certificate of origin. I would assume with time and effort it could be done. Rural states may make it easier to bring in as opposed to California. I live in Idaho and some folks buy their agriculture equipment like tractors, in Canada for the benefits of the exchange rate and because, heck, Canadians are downright friendly folks.
Ahh, shucks! On behalf of Canadians everywhere, Thank You very much!
By the same token, about 16 years ago, when me & the wife made a cross country trip from Vancouver to Montreal via the northern part of the US (on the way there), we found the people in the American midwest some of the friendliest folks we have ever had the pleasure of encountering. The rest of the US wasn't bad either, it was just that the folks in the midwest seemed especially down-to-earth.
I did some reading here in the Edmunds New Car section to see what other makers are doing with ABS. I used Edmunds for data on standard and optional equipment. And I used MSRP prices for all comparisons. I know MSRP isn't the most realistic way to do it, but people here have been complaining that "Honda" is slacking with ABS, so the market value is irrelevant. Here's some of the interesting stuff...
The Forester is the only model (in this class) that offers ABS as standard equipment on it's lowest trim level. This is the L trim which costs $21,620. Equipment levels fall between the CR-V LX ($19,240) and the EX ($22,740). The Forester used to offer a standard base model without ABS, either standard or as an option, but that trim level was dropped in 2000.
According to Edmunds, you cannot get ABS for the Xterra. Doesn't matter if you buy the top end model with a supercharger.
Only the CR-V, Forester, and Santa Fe offer front and rear disk brakes. All others use disk/drum set ups.
The base Grand Vitara, Liberty, Tribute, and CR-V do not offer ABS. The GV requires that you move up to the $ 21,299 JLX and pay an extra $500. The Liberty requires a $21,845 V6 upgrade and then you can get ABS for an additional $600. The Tribute requires a V6 upgrade ($22,025) and a modest $250 for the ABS. It's standard on the EX CR-V, but the model costs $22,740.
The 2wd RAV4 is a steal at $18,085 and ABS is a respectable $300 option. A/C is another $985.
The base model Escape allows for ABS as a $575 option. Unlike the Tribute, a V6 is not required. Even the Kia asks for $490 to add itto the Sportage and Saturn wants $595 for ABS to be added to the base VUE. In their defense, Saturn includes traction control. On the V6 VUE, ABS is $575, making traction control worth $20 (not really, but that's how the numbers add up).
The Santa Fe is a packaging nightmare. ABS is available, but will cost you $990 as it is included in a package with cruise control, keyless entry, security alarm, cargo net, cargo cover, a first aid kit, and a rear window wiper/washer. Some are worth the dollars, but others are just trinkets.
Bottom line: 45% of the mini utes, do not offer ABS on their base model (55% if Subaru still offered a base model). The majority of them offer ABS only as an extra expense even on their upper models.
Furthermore, if you take similarly equipped vehicles (like adding ABS, CD, and A/C to the RAV4), you end up with a vehicle that costs more than the CR-V EX. And unlike the Santa Fe, you are getting substantial stuff (moonroof, alloy wheels, 6 disk changer, side airbags, etc.) when you buy the EX.
I thought "Tribape" was a belittling enough of a nickname. :-)
Anyway, that was a good summary of what's out there in feature-land. I really think the current pricing issues with the CR-V boil down to just supply and demand. Market forces will inevitably correct this. With the previous CR-V, I noticed that it became easier to get a "deal" on the car once it was 3-4 years into its cycle, especially when the Ford Escape was introduced. Those who can wait to buy can reasonably be expected to save some cash.
when you were looking for the car did you check www.carsdirect.com ? also i noticed that NJ dealers are more willing to negotiate than NY, and don't even bother with CT dealers. At least Greenwich honda would not even talk to me when i mentioned the invoice, as if they didn;t know what invoice was. i bought both of my new honda's from dealers in NJ, and both were at invoice with minimum hassle.
Yes, I know they're "available" but none of the cars arriving seem to "have" them. It was an emotional thing--I was tired of looking and ready to buy, so opted to do without. It just seems like a no-brainer to me: put the damn things on all the cars!
I know this will get some people going which is of course why I write it,but there is some truth to it IMO. The demand for the CRV and ODY currently exceeds supply and this is good for Honda.However,is it really that high or is Honda artificially creating a perception of high demand by deliberately starting and maybe even keeping production at a very low level. This would of course force the customer to pay full MSRP because although the demand is a realistic say 75,000 per year,they only make 50,000. The next year the Mfg knows they can sell 150,000,but only make 125,000 thus creating a never ending 'shortage' and continuing high demand. I believe Toyota did this with the Highlander. Yet all that demand and I still have not seen too many Highlanders on the road. IMO,both Honda and Toyota are losing out on much better results by giving up volume and losing many long term customers who went elsewhere. With the economy the way it is,this is a big risk. All things being considered,it appears that the best 'value'out there is the RAV4 in this segment.
<< Bottom line: 45% of the mini utes, do not offer ABS on their base model (55% if Subaru still offered a base model) >>
The Forester L *is* the base model.
The Impreza TL and Outback Sport, while not "cute-utes" per say, because they come standard with AWD (and ABS), do siphon off some cute-ute sales. Both these model's MSRPs are under $20K.
My only comment is that people should not assume everyone wants ABS. Statements like this which started the whole discussion make me cringe:
"When will they realize that most people want and should have ABS and make them standard on all vehicles?"
So you are telling me I "should" have ABS....how arrogant. I personally would like an EX without ABS but I understand the rationale for including it in that trim line the same way I understand why it is not on the LX.
Picked up my black '02 CR-V EX (auto) from a local Chicago dealer for $20,885 on 12/6. That included the destination charge, no accessories. (I've ordered those from H and A accessories.) I went through a "special accounts" department that only handles internet sales at the dealership. Wish I could say I was a great negotiator but this was the price quoted to me. I'm not sure that they are still offering the CR-V at these prices but would be happy to share the information through e-mail for those around the Chicago area.
Keep in mind that if a manufacturer intentionally kept the supply lower than the demand that it would primarily be the dealers who would benefit, not the manufacturer. The manufacturer could only benefit by not being forced to offer deep incentives.
The "base" Forester was never actually sold here in the US. Edmunds is plain wrong. Nice thing is that if you shop for a used Forester, have no doubt in your mind, it'll have ABS, period.
You priced an automatic, but a 5 speed is cheaper, and actual selling prices are under $19k for an L 5-speed and under $20k with auto. To add to Bob's list, the Legacy L wagon, even with auto, also sells for under $20k.
Canadian Subies do cost more, but they also have a lot more content than US models.
Spy asked a good question, though. If Honda increased the price by a grand, and dealer's offered a $1000 off MSRP, would I buy it? The answer is: only if they included a moonroof. Or a longer warranty. Toss me a cookie, something, anything.
Seriously, price is just one issue. Saturn does the MSRP thing, but they roll out the red carpet, treat you with respect, and aren't arrogant. Don't take my word for it, read the Ody threads. Most owners love the van but hated the dealer experience. So my qualm is with handing over $2834 in profit to a dealer that acts like it's a privilege to buy from him.
I'd love an EX-L, and it's $28,690, kind of pushing my limit. The best quotes for a 5/60 warranty are $465 (in reality I'd get at least that, maybe even the 7/75 for $655). Add to that an aftermarket moonroof for about $900, and I'm spending over $30 grand. Nearly $32 grand after taxes, and while it's well equipped it is not a luxury model, lacking HIDs, VSC, Nav system, etc.
On the upside, resale is phenomenal. 2 year old models cost almost the same as new ones. Hard to believe.
But me, I'm waiting for the 2003 Sienna. At least that'll give them some competition. I'm also waiting to see the new Forester, Accord, MPV 3.0l, and the Mazda 6. Maybe the next Maxima and G35.
It doesn't make sense to create an artificial shortage in a highly competitive SUV market. You noted this yourself in your post. The folks at Honda did not build a world class organization by being unsophisticated. The shortage of vehicles right now is probably due to two factors. Foremost is the large pent up demand for the new CRV. Secondly, there are probably kinks to be worked out when starting up production on a new vehicle. (The new CRV is basically a new vehicle) Eventually the demand will taper off and production will pick up as they ride down the learning curve. At that point you should start seeing a lot more 02 CRV's on the lots and dealers who are willing to deal. The folks at Honda would like to maximize their profitability, and the way to do that is to sell as many vehicles as possible, not create artificial shortages.
One of the things that has interested me is the regional differences in pricing on the new CRV's. I think this is because of local competitive conditions and the strategy of local dealers. Some dealers are willing to cut a deal even when they don't need to in order to build long term customer loyalty. If one dealer does this, others in the vicinity are likely to follow suit. Other factors may enter into this, but that is my theory.
about the Legacy L wagon is especially true if you're considering a sub-$20K AWD/ABS vehicle. It's probably one of the best kept secrets in all of the automobile world. You get one heck of a lot of vehicle for very little money.
Mam9 - Gotcha. Unfortunately, demand is going to force quite a few people to purchase whatever is in stock. I wonder if the side airbags and sensors could be installed by the dealer (or any other sound mechanic)? Probably expensive.
Bob - You must've missed my earlier point. "The Forester used to offer a standard base model without ABS, either standard or as an option, but that trim level was dropped in 2000." The Forester L was the mid level trim and actually had close to the same equipment and price tag as the 1st gen CR-V EX.
As for the other Subaru products, no they do not offer significant competition in this segment. Not anymore than the CR-V steals sales from the Legacy or Outback. My post was in response to the folks who believe that Honda is not following the market by making ABS standard on everything. The fact that Subaru does is exemplary, but the market plans of a tiny niche manufacturer can hardly be described as a market trend.
Rutger - I have to agree with mikefm98 about creating artificial demand. The dealer is the one who makes the money when a car is sold over MSRP. Honda doesn't see a penny of it. The only benefit to this is that the dealerships will order more cars from Honda... but of course... Honda can't build anymore! So the dealer ends up frustrated because they are turning away customers to the competition.
I just looked up the invoice for the Legacy L wagon. Sure a stripper (if you can find one) will cost under 20 but add any options and it quickly will go over. Subaru goes the Toyota route with options. I counted 34 different packages and options...enough to drive anyone batty.
IMO Honda does it right with trim lines/options. I'm buying an import not a GM.
The "base" model was never actually sold in the US. Not even in 1998. It was weird because all the buyer's guides listed it, but Subaru decided not to sell it at the last minute. So the L has always been the entry-level model Forester.
The 2nd Odyssey plant is up and running, which helps on the supply side. When the next Sienna arives, rumored to truly rival the Odyssey, that may ease demand a little. I hope so.
The Odyssey is not new, so it's pretty amazing that the supply/demand curve is the way it is. The CR-V is not the class leader that the Odyssey is (240hp, 5 speed auto, magic seat), so I'm sure demand will settle down. In some places it already has.
FYI - finding L models under $20k is very, very easy. Fitzmall.com has 20 in stock right now, all of them below $20k. And they are not stripped - AWD, ABS, 4 wheel disc brakes, power windows, power locks, power mirrors, and cruise is standard. Even with auto none of them break that price barrier.
Comments
Write to: adrian@markroberts.com, or
Phone: 1-800-375-5377
We did not go into dealer add-ons, but I'm thinking this is where they hope to add to their profit. However, it's up to anyone who is interested to negotiate in his best interests.
Crvic - When an Acura service tech dinged my wife's TL, they had Dentwizard do the repair. It looks great. You'd have to know that there was a dent to find it.
Erey - Congrats! Now post some pics for us.
oil filter stock at Honda Parts, It's smaller and taller. Anybody boy has information on this.
That's odd, why are the rear mud guards standard, and the fronts an option? It seems to me that the rears protect the car behind you, while the fronts protect yours.
-juice
Other FAQs... I'd also note that it's variable (the greater the slippage, the greater the amount of power sent to the of axle). Also, yes, it does work in reverse.
A few comments: seems to have good pickup and smooth shifting (auto). Easy to get in and out
but step-over is a little high. Don't think running boards would help; might even get in the
way. It's ok for me (5'8") but short-legged people might have trouble. Great headlights.
The audio system sounds good, but I'm not that picky and have been used to a *lot* of
road noise in previous '87 Toyota. Think my bike will fit in the back with no trouble. The bin under the table holds a lot of odds and ends. Handle shifter is a little awkward--why don't they just
figure out how to do it with buttons? Seats are wide enough but could use a little side bolstering for corners. Like the tan interior but the pattern is still ugly. At least while I'm sitting on it I don't have to look at it. (Must have been designed by a man.) Tossed a few floral cushions in the back to counteract the effect. ;-)
Ride is smooth but jarring over bumps. I think they didn't air down the tires like I asked them to, so will have to check that. Love the chunky steering wheel--usually I have to get a cover to make them thicker. Cup holders in tray don't hold an extra large take-out cup.
Visibility is pretty good, but USE THOSE SIDE MIRRORS! Wish it had side airbags. When is Honda gonna figure out how to *really* build customer loyalty?
Running boards may help you get it, but you'll get your pants dirty every time you step out.
Designed by a man, LOL!
-juice
This is a fun car to drive. I love that new car ride! Thanks to everyone here and to Edmunds for lots of inside info. It really helped me make up my mind.
I'm considering the CR-V, but have noticed that dealers in Tampa are charging MSRP or higher. I went to carsdirect.com, and they actually have it for $1000 OVER MSRP.
Anyone in here from Tampa? Any luck? ANy help would be appreciated.
Thanks.
1. When will they realize that most people want and should have ABS and make them standard on all vehicles? To make them unavailable on the LX is downright foolish. There's a reason every BMW,Mercedes,Lexus,and Infiniti and even many less expensive makes have them as standard equipment.
2.Side air bags, $250 option. Please ,this is 2002 not 1992.
3.Honda makes excellent vehicles. But so do Toyota,Mazda and a few others. They are not the only game in town,but for some reason the dealers believe this.
4.Someday,their take it or leave it at MSRP attitude will come back to haunt them. And I hope all those responsible for their pricing decisions end up on the unemployment line.
5. Did I say Honda makes very nice well made vehicles with great resale values. But there is more to it than that.
-juice
Spend some time with your new buggy before naming it. Some owners have let their cars go annonymous for years before giving it a good name. Here are a few stories. One member over at the CR-V IX didn't name his until he began modifying it. He posted pics after adding fog lights and a light bar. Someone remarked that it resembled "the mothership", and so it was named. Lots of folks use the color as part of the name. There's Texas Blue Betty, Milano Bambyno, Black Buc, Albinogator... I like the play on Chianti that you and Juice have going. Others go after the function of the vehicle. There's the Dobermobile (used to transport dobermans) and Little Mule as examples. Mine is named "Buster". The name calls to my mind the Norman Rockwell illustrations with the scrappy-looking little kids. That's the same impression I get from the CR-V.
Anyway, those are just examples to get yourself started. Wait until you find one that you really like.
BTW, side airbags are an option on the LX (although not cheap). Was the expense a problem, or did you not know this?
- Sure, BMW,Mercedes, Lexus et al have ABS standard. And when they offer a compact SUV for under $20K AND equip it with ABS, I'll bet Honda will too. ABS isn't free - and since, as someone else (Varmit?) has already noted, the ABS-free LX is the best-selling CR-V trim level, many people seem to get along fine without it.
- I still don't understand why people complain about Honda dealers selling Ody's at MSRP. The sell it for MSRP because they can get it - people are buying them at MSRP because they see the value in them at that price. If you don't see the value, then don't buy it!
Here's a question: if Honda raised the Odyssey MSRP by $1,000, and dealers then offered it at $1,000 below MSRP, would you be happier?
My kid sister lives in Canada, so I could have her buy it and then "sell it" to me. Does anyone know how I can find out FOR CERTAIN if a Canadian vehicle warrantee would be honored by U.S. dealer's? I know Honda's rarely are troublesome but at $20K its something that can not be over looked.
Hard to believe anyone could be getting in at $500-700 over invoice as a few have claimed (other than at Mark Roberts Honda, as several people have mentioned that), while only one dealer in Connecticut and Westchester County, NY was willing to go under MSRP at all.
On the one hand, I can't blame the Honda dealers for charging whatever they can, but as mentioned by rutger3, I don't like the arrogance that most of these Honda dealers display. Their's is a very "take-it-or-leave-it" attitude, evidenced by telling you over the phone, when you're just calling to see if they have any CRVs in stock, that they're going at list and are booked up until Feb. As if to say, "don't waste our time unless you can live with these conditions." The CRV is for my parents, so if they're happy with what they're getting for what they're paying, great. (Not to say that I'm unhappy, I think the CRV is a fine vehicle and even at MSRP is a decent value). But I'm going to be wary of ever buying a Honda for myself, just based on dealer behavior.
Call your local Honda dealer. Ask for the phone number for the Honda of America District Office. Call them and explain what you want to do.
If you have a Honda, look up the phone number in the owners manual. Call them and explain what you want to do.
Hannah10 - The V is an EX 4WD Automatic. Like I indicated, I selected, the fog, running board, front mud guards, rear cargo cover, and the metal look trim interior for a grand total of $23,430.00
plus taxes of course.
Naming your CR-V.....How about "Fine wine"..covers the color and the engine.
Would a vacation rental be sufficient Canadian address for the dealer to sell to a U.S. citizen?
Some posters thought that the savings on the Candian vehicle more than covered the cost of a third-party warranty. Then again, that might have all been speculation. I don't remember anyone actually doing it.
Bob
I firmly believe Honda takes pride in the fact that their cars hold their value better than rest, as measured by ALG's residual value multipliers. This multiplier is based on MSRP, not negotiated price. If they set their MSRP artificially high, ALG would compensate by lowering their multiplier into the rest of the crowd.
Rob
Just comparing raw specs, it looks like the new-V would have beaten the RAV4 hands down.
Even though emmissions might be as good or better, they may not be what EPA mandates in terms of hardware. I used to pick up cars in my college days at the pier in Long Beach and drive them to a warehouse where all they did was take very fine imported gray market cars and bring them into compliance with U.S. standards. These were German autos (Porsche's and Mercede's). Ahhh... what memories. A broke college student driving $50-70,000 autos on the freeways of LA.
There were a number of things that had to be done including tweaking the emmissions, replacing tail lights, reinforcing doors, replacing odo to read MPH v. KPH, etc. I know the Canadian version is a lot closer to our standards but check for surprises. The biggest one may be related to 'paper' as in not having the right certificate of origin. I would assume with time and effort it could be done. Rural states may make it easier to bring in as opposed to California. I live in Idaho and some folks buy their agriculture equipment like tractors, in Canada for the benefits of the exchange rate and because, heck, Canadians are downright friendly folks.
By the same token, about 16 years ago, when me & the wife made a cross country trip from Vancouver to Montreal via the northern part of the US (on the way there), we found the people in the American midwest some of the friendliest folks we have ever had the pleasure of encountering. The rest of the US wasn't bad either, it was just that the folks in the midwest seemed especially down-to-earth.
The Forester is the only model (in this class) that offers ABS as standard equipment on it's lowest trim level. This is the L trim which costs $21,620. Equipment levels fall between the CR-V LX ($19,240) and the EX ($22,740). The Forester used to offer a standard base model without ABS, either standard or as an option, but that trim level was dropped in 2000.
According to Edmunds, you cannot get ABS for the Xterra. Doesn't matter if you buy the top end model with a supercharger.
Only the CR-V, Forester, and Santa Fe offer front and rear disk brakes. All others use disk/drum set ups.
The base Grand Vitara, Liberty, Tribute, and CR-V do not offer ABS. The GV requires that you move up to the $ 21,299 JLX and pay an extra $500. The Liberty requires a $21,845 V6 upgrade and then you can get ABS for an additional $600. The Tribute requires a V6 upgrade ($22,025) and a modest $250 for the ABS. It's standard on the EX CR-V, but the model costs $22,740.
The 2wd RAV4 is a steal at $18,085 and ABS is a respectable $300 option. A/C is another $985.
The base model Escape allows for ABS as a $575 option. Unlike the Tribute, a V6 is not required. Even the Kia asks for $490 to add itto the Sportage and Saturn wants $595 for ABS to be added to the base VUE. In their defense, Saturn includes traction control. On the V6 VUE, ABS is $575, making traction control worth $20 (not really, but that's how the numbers add up).
The Santa Fe is a packaging nightmare. ABS is available, but will cost you $990 as it is included in a package with cruise control, keyless entry, security alarm, cargo net, cargo cover, a first aid kit, and a rear window wiper/washer. Some are worth the dollars, but others are just trinkets.
Bottom line: 45% of the mini utes, do not offer ABS on their base model (55% if Subaru still offered a base model). The majority of them offer ABS only as an extra expense even on their upper models.
Furthermore, if you take similarly equipped vehicles (like adding ABS, CD, and A/C to the RAV4), you end up with a vehicle that costs more than the CR-V EX. And unlike the Santa Fe, you are getting substantial stuff (moonroof, alloy wheels, 6 disk changer, side airbags, etc.) when you buy the EX.
Anyway, that was a good summary of what's out there in feature-land. I really think the current pricing issues with the CR-V boil down to just supply and demand. Market forces will inevitably correct this. With the previous CR-V, I noticed that it became easier to get a "deal" on the car once it was 3-4 years into its cycle, especially when the Ford Escape was introduced. Those who can wait to buy can reasonably be expected to save some cash.
The Forester L *is* the base model.
The Impreza TL and Outback Sport, while not "cute-utes" per say, because they come standard with AWD (and ABS), do siphon off some cute-ute sales. Both these model's MSRPs are under $20K.
Bob
"When will they realize that most people want and should have ABS and make them standard on all vehicles?"
So you are telling me I "should" have ABS....how arrogant. I personally would like an EX without ABS but I understand the rationale for including it in that trim line the same way I understand why it is not on the LX.
You priced an automatic, but a 5 speed is cheaper, and actual selling prices are under $19k for an L 5-speed and under $20k with auto. To add to Bob's list, the Legacy L wagon, even with auto, also sells for under $20k.
Canadian Subies do cost more, but they also have a lot more content than US models.
Spy asked a good question, though. If Honda increased the price by a grand, and dealer's offered a $1000 off MSRP, would I buy it? The answer is: only if they included a moonroof. Or a longer warranty. Toss me a cookie, something, anything.
Seriously, price is just one issue. Saturn does the MSRP thing, but they roll out the red carpet, treat you with respect, and aren't arrogant. Don't take my word for it, read the Ody threads. Most owners love the van but hated the dealer experience. So my qualm is with handing over $2834 in profit to a dealer that acts like it's a privilege to buy from him.
I'd love an EX-L, and it's $28,690, kind of pushing my limit. The best quotes for a 5/60 warranty are $465 (in reality I'd get at least that, maybe even the 7/75 for $655). Add to that an aftermarket moonroof for about $900, and I'm spending over $30 grand. Nearly $32 grand after taxes, and while it's well equipped it is not a luxury model, lacking HIDs, VSC, Nav system, etc.
On the upside, resale is phenomenal. 2 year old models cost almost the same as new ones. Hard to believe.
But me, I'm waiting for the 2003 Sienna. At least that'll give them some competition. I'm also waiting to see the new Forester, Accord, MPV 3.0l, and the Mazda 6. Maybe the next Maxima and G35.
-juice
One of the things that has interested me is the regional differences in pricing on the new CRV's. I think this is because of local competitive conditions and the strategy of local dealers. Some dealers are willing to cut a deal even when they don't need to in order to build long term customer loyalty. If one dealer does this, others in the vicinity are likely to follow suit. Other factors may enter into this, but that is my theory.
Bob
Bob - You must've missed my earlier point. "The Forester used to offer a standard base model without ABS, either standard or as an option, but that trim level was dropped in 2000." The Forester L was the mid level trim and actually had close to the same equipment and price tag as the 1st gen CR-V EX.
As for the other Subaru products, no they do not offer significant competition in this segment. Not anymore than the CR-V steals sales from the Legacy or Outback. My post was in response to the folks who believe that Honda is not following the market by making ABS standard on everything. The fact that Subaru does is exemplary, but the market plans of a tiny niche manufacturer can hardly be described as a market trend.
Rutger - I have to agree with mikefm98 about creating artificial demand. The dealer is the one who makes the money when a car is sold over MSRP. Honda doesn't see a penny of it. The only benefit to this is that the dealerships will order more cars from Honda... but of course... Honda can't build anymore! So the dealer ends up frustrated because they are turning away customers to the competition.
IMO Honda does it right with trim lines/options. I'm buying an import not a GM.
Bob
The "base" model was never actually sold in the US. Not even in 1998. It was weird because all the buyer's guides listed it, but Subaru decided not to sell it at the last minute. So the L has always been the entry-level model Forester.
The 2nd Odyssey plant is up and running, which helps on the supply side. When the next Sienna arives, rumored to truly rival the Odyssey, that may ease demand a little. I hope so.
The Odyssey is not new, so it's pretty amazing that the supply/demand curve is the way it is. The CR-V is not the class leader that the Odyssey is (240hp, 5 speed auto, magic seat), so I'm sure demand will settle down. In some places it already has.
-juice
-juice