Like I said, import owners tend to "forget" just how much they actually spend on repairs. But for andres3's sake i hope he has been keeping all the money that he would have spent on repairs on his dodge peon cause he aint seen nothin like an out of warranty audi repair bill
I've seen three out of warranty Audi repairs and I'm still easily under a grand spent. 78,000 miles and going strong; not at all scared. Car still runs like a bullet/vault tight without any annoying rattles or signs that it is "falling apart at the seams."
And by the way, I forget about just as many Neon repairs as I have Audi repairs sometimes. :P After all, the neon was EONS ago according to some here, so I'll forget more due to the effect of time on memory. LIke just recently I remembered the gas tank leak repair in the Neon that I think I forgot about for at least my last 250 Neon-related posts on the forums.
'21 BMW X3 M40i, '15 Audi S4, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I mean seriously you got a lemon neon (theres an oxymoron if i ever heard one) what did you really expect from probly the cheapest car you could have bought at the time...you drove the crap out of it...it fell apart...what did you really expect?
There have been a lot of cheap cars NOT from C and GM over the years that last a long time with high reliability. Cheap is not necessarily equal to unreliable.
I mean seriously you got a lemon neon (theres an oxymoron if i ever heard one) what did you really expect from probly the cheapest car you could have bought at the time...you drove the crap out of it...it fell apart...what did you really expect?
Well, My Neon was supremely upkept and maintained with oil changes every 3K and the like. Yes I drove it somewhat hard as a teenager, but not nearly as hard as my Audi has been driven . (track time, an autocross and such in the Audi).
It wasn't the cheapest car out there at the time, and I didn't get the lowest line model, I got the highest line, the sport model.
Regardless, it was priced similarly to a same year Geo Prism (Toyota Corolla without the prestige and name). My best friend got one of those I believe just 1 or 2 days after my Neon arrived. Now he drove the SNOT out of that car, he raped it over and over everyday without allowing a proper break in. That car was abused, molested, and ravaged the way he drove it from day 1. I'm talking about flooring it as standard operating procedure during every acceleration (lol, it was pretty weak so flooring it in his car was like 66% thottle in the Neon). He got 100,000 flawless miles without any repairs in or out of warranty.
I suppose THAT is what I expected from the "NEW" Dodge, the New American Car Manufacturing Geniuses they'd have you believe to even this day. 100,000 flawless miles please! He sold it to a good friend of his at just over 100,000 miles, I'm sure it served him well for 100K more at least.
'21 BMW X3 M40i, '15 Audi S4, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
The old man in my condo's parking lot that went from Buick to Hyundai (Azera) went back to Hyundai again (he likes to drive new every 4 years, his one indulgence in retirement he's told me).
I kinda like the Hyundai Azera. If you get the more basic model, it has a really nice cloth interior with little polka-dots that reminds me of an early 80's Olds Ninety-Eight!
I'll also admit I had a soft spot for the old Hyundai XG300/350 cars. There's one I see in the parking lot at work, that's a really attractive light blue color.
I can't remember...do they still make the Azera, or did the Genesis replace it?
I've seen three out of warranty Audi repairs and I'm still easily under a grand spent. 78,000 miles and going strong...
Funny, but I can't recall any cars that I owned over the past 10-15 years that needed THREE out-of-warranty repairs, let alone one.
Let's see: 2004 Mazda6 - 92K miles when sold (exactly $0 in repairs not under warranty) 1999 Pontiac Grand Am SE - 87K miles (one repair for a fried HVAC fan resistor)
And lest I forget: 2000 Dodge Neon - traded in in '07 with 110K miles, with one out-of-warranty repair (water pump at 98K miles). The shocks were shot at trade in, but that was it. 5-speed manual still had the original clutch, all trim pieces were accounted for, and the only noises I heard when driving were caused by the worn shocks. It never failed to start, never stalled on it's own, was never towed, and as much as I didn't care for the car, it was my wife's DD and she loved it.
Azera is still offered, but 2009+ models are probably insanely rare. But it is a good choice for those who are scared of something as exciting as a Genesis. It's an inoffensive and probably very comfortable car.
Hyundai Europe had the gall to try to sell that thing at the same price as a lower line E class or 5er, at least in Germany. Guess how well that worked out.
But he is the one who loves to bring up this comparo all the time. all im saying is that, sure, maybe up till this time the audi has been more reliable than his peon, but there is a reason most people ditch audis as soon as the warranty is up
I'm just demonstrating that even any Audi is still cheaper to own and repair than your typical domestic.... (excluding Ford maybe for the last couple years). So a luxury car costs less to own than the cheapest of the cheapest domestic, you betcha, I"m a living example and my Audi has 13,000 more miles than the Neon could ever go. It's just LIGHT YEARS apart. I got an extra 100 HP nowadays with the same real world economy of the old Neon fuel wise. Disgraceful!
I think the days of people getting rid of their Audi's at 50K miles is over. But I can see why many do it. With Audi dealers being allowed to charge $125 per hour for labor, that could scare even Donald Trump!
It's hard to find a good mechanic, let alone a good Audi/German car mechanic. But now that I've found one, and they'll hook me up with $50/hour labor rates (not quite a case of beer good), I"m not scared of anything.
'21 BMW X3 M40i, '15 Audi S4, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Any how, I'm not going to defend VW/Audi when it comes to reliability, a friend drove a loaner car more than she drove her Passat before she dumped it for an Odyssey.
VW is no Audi, and Audi is no VW. They don't have nearly the same quality control. Even as an Audi fanboy now, (thanks to my ownership experience), I'd still not recommend VW. I don't know if they've learned their lessons yet like Audi has, but they have made their powertrain warranty 10K miles longer than Audi's because "they had to." Mainly due to quality control issues. Audi still gets away with a 50K warranty, VW is at 60K for the powertrain, and they are the NON LUXURY brand!!!, but I"d take the Audi with a shorter warranty any day because I won't have to use it as much.
'21 BMW X3 M40i, '15 Audi S4, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
The trick to repairing any German vehicle is to remember that almost none of them make the actual parts themselves. So you have to find out who makes it and order that part directly. It's often a fraction of the dealer price. Just without the auto maker's logo/blessing on it.
It take a lot more footwork, but it ends up with your repairs only being a little more expensive, than say, a Toyota.
Experiences like that, and good personal experiences with other brands, still keep me from considering VW/Audi, even though they make plenty of interesting products.
Although VW owns Audi, it is obvious from anyone who has looked or researched the facts and data, that they practice different quality control techniques, and have a different culture at Audi than they do at VW as a whole.
'21 BMW X3 M40i, '15 Audi S4, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
The Optima SX is far behind the sophistication of BMW, I understand that. But for under $30K with the performance, efficiency and feature content, it is easily an 80% figure in my experience even for the drive.
It is NOT a track day-car but how many 3-series owners track their rides?
Fully loaded Optima SX = $29,439 (Edmunds TMV) Fully Loaded 328i = $41,768 (Optima still has added features than in this price for BMW)
I already concede the 3'er would run rings around the Optima....except in the financial planning arena! :surprise:
I remember my days at the autocross tracks (as a spectator most of the time) and the most tunable and most tossable cars on the track were supposedly those Dodge Neons. Those and the original "Rat in Reeboks" Impreza's were dominating. The neons were also cheap to race as well.
I agree, they weren't cars to aspire to by any means, but Chrysler did a bangup job with the chassis on those. :shades:
I took a 15 hour ride to NC over the weekend and saw many, many of those new Optimas. Most, if not all of them were the turbo models and boy does that car stand out in the segment.
Me? I like the looks of the Sonata when it's in full dress. But not the lower trim models, they just look sorta Rentabu-ish to me. But the Optima has such a great profile (not Audi or BMW but racier than the average Camcord) that even in lower trimlines, it looks sharp. And I have driven the non-Turbo Optima and came away very impressed. It had the chassis dynamics, sprightly handling and nimbleness reminiscent of my old gen 6 Accords.
Hmmmm... dude are you lost again? You see the topic above? You read your post? For a moment I thought I was in the wrong topic. Then again seems no one cares so....carry on. :lemon:
The Neon definitely had potential. When it first came out, it was pretty much the leader of its class in standard horsepower. I know 132 hp doesn't sound like a whole lot, but back in that time, many of its peers only had 90-100. And it was roomy for a small car, too...probably one of the first small cars I really felt comfortable in. The styling seemed radical and trend-setting for the time, as well, and in that timeframe, Chrysler seemed to be on a roll, with surefire winners like the Intrepid/Concorde, the newly redesigned Ram, and the upcoming "Cloud Car" Stratus/Cirrus/Sebring models, which came out a bit later as proper 1995's.
The Neon lured in a lot of buyers who probably never would have otherwise bought a Chrysler product. And unfortunately, many of those early buyers would never buy another, once the quality control problems started popping up.
I'll usually see some souped-up Neons at the Mopar show I go to in Carlisle PA every year, so they do still have their following. I wish Chrysler would have stuck it out with the Neon, and continued to improve it and work out the bugs, rather than just give up and replace it with the heavier, thirstier Caliber. IMO, the Caliber is more of a Matrix/Vibe type of vehicle. Chrysler shouldn't have just given up the mainstream compact market. Even if they could never hope to topple the Corolla or Civic, that market was still too important to just give up.
oops, well I was guilty too I guess, with my little Neon diatribe above. Just out of curiosity, how did the Cobalt do when it came to autocrossing and such? I know they had that SS model that was supposed to be pretty quick, and I think it got fairly good reviews.
Those came along after I stopped going (got married and bought a "fixer" house, lol) so I have no experience with those but I do remember many tuners getting some ridiculous 0-60 times with them. :shades:
I remember my days at the autocross tracks (as a spectator most of the time) and the most tunable and most tossable cars on the track were supposedly those Dodge Neons.
Fun times. I used to autocross in the late 90's. Neons and Miatas always seemed to kick but. If I were to do it again, I'd probably use a Miata. Tons of parts, RWD, and lots of performance upgrades available along with being a great handling car for a tight autocross course. I used my SVT Contour and co-drove a buddies MR2. Man that was fun. With the MR2 I was introduced to throttle lift oversteer. I spun it like a "top" more than once:)
One thing with Autocross, big HP doesn't do a whole lot. Usually the guys/gals driving big HP RWD cars (older vettes, mustangs, and camaros etc) spent more time smoking their tires. We had a guy that had a supercharged 302 powered Cobra replica who always put on a good show, though his times usually sucked! His runs usually ended with a big smoky donut! I doubt much has changed, but outside of a Corvette and some F bodies, I didn't see many GM vehicles.
GM never had a small FWD car that was any good for autocross. A Cavalier was lunch to Neons, Sentras, and VWs back then. The rare occasions I raced my Contour against Grand Am GTs it was an easy win. Unfortunately that was the same class as Ford Probes and Eagle Talons and the they were tough. Particularly AWD Talons, my only chance was I could drive better, but that certainly wasn't always the case;)
Genesis just added DI to the V6 model and their own 8 speed automatic for 333hp and 29mpg highway, all for $35k with freight.
Da-ha-hayum that's an amazing value.
Add the leather package (real cowhide on the dash BTW) and Navi and you're still under $40k.
Pretty much anything priced higher will give you diminishing returns. May be a tad nicer, have brand cachet, better resale or whatever, but won't match that incredible value.
As far as I know, no Chrysler parts went into the Benzes, although there were probably parts that were designed to go into both.
And oddly enough, in some cases, it was the Benz components that were causing the problems! For instance, when the 300C and Magnum came out for 2005, it wasn't the old, notorious 4-speed automatic that gave them troubles, but the new, Benz-sourced 5-speed!
Maybe something like a wheel that fits a 300 or Charger might also fit a Benz, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. A 300/Charger wheel would also fit my old 2000 Intrepid (although it would stick out more), '79 New Yorker, and '57 DeSoto...they all use the same 4.5 inch bolt pattern.
No direct parts that I know of, but it seems there was a general cheapening around that time. It's hit and miss.
I've noticed that too, that there seemed to be lot of pressure on the industry in general to start cost-cutting and cheapen things around the late 90's/early 00's timeframe. Cars were getting more technologically advanced, more required safety features, etc, but the consumers were still balking at rising prices, so something had to give. One Japanese example that really jumps out to me is the 1997 Camry, versus the 1992-96.
And I remember looking at a 1991-96 era Buick Park Ave a few weeks ago, fairly closely, and it just seemed like a higher-quality car than the 1997-2005 style. I think the newer platform has nicer lines, and has more presence to it, and probably more features and so on, but in little details, such as interior parts, trim and such, the older model just seemed higher quality.
there seemed to be lot of pressure on the industry in general to start cost-cutting and cheapen things around the late 90's/early 00's timeframe
I agree, but I think it goes in cycles, de-contenting, then adding content. Plus not all manufacturers do it on the same schedule.
Right now, for the most part, I think we're seeing cost cutting. They blame it on currencies, or say that hard/cheap plastics are lighter and it's necessary to reduce weight, but it's happening.
Go sit in a base Jetta. Boy did they cut costs to get that entry price to $16k.
There are always exceptions, and makes moving in opposite directions.
Then go sit in a new Hyundai, just about any of them. Compare to a Hyundai from a decade ago, and you'll be shocked at how much they've improved.
Look a the new Jeep Grand Cherokee - much nicer now.
Ford finally decided to let us have a truly new Focus, after how long?
This is a GM thread, let's see...the Equinox is a massive improvement over its predecessor. Nicer design, DI engines, like night and day.
So different models/makes have been going in different directions.
I remember my days at the autocross tracks (as a spectator most of the time) and the most tunable and most tossable cars on the track were supposedly those Dodge Neons. Those and the original "Rat in Reeboks" Impreza's were dominating. The neons were also cheap to race as well.
Fast-forward to a 2-day autocross event in San Diego by the BMW club (open to all makes and models though to a limit) in 2010 (haven't done any yet this year), and none of those old Neons run any more :lemon: :sick: They must be in the junkyard, not a single one made it to the event in 2010.
There were, however, some old Miata's, some old BMW's, and some somewhat old Subaru's though. Plenty of 3ers (granted it's a BMW club event), Plenty of M's, not a lot of Audi's (they prefer tracks I guess), good amount of Lotus'.
'21 BMW X3 M40i, '15 Audi S4, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Ya, I would expect the Neon to be tired by this point, the ones I saw were the first gen models which were built from 1995? to about 2001. Surprised that the SRT-4 models would be gone by now tho...
And the Lotus? Ah Lotus... Love me some Exige or Elise, those are the purest "drivers cars" out there IMO :shades: And Toyota reliability!
:P The Neon definitely had potential. When it first came out, it was pretty much the leader of its class in standard horsepower. I know 132 hp doesn't sound like a whole lot, but back in that time, many of its peers only had 90-100. And it was roomy for a small car, too...probably one of the first small cars I really felt comfortable in. The styling seemed radical and trend-setting for the time, as well, and in that timeframe
As I've said before, it was a pretty decent car for its time when, and I do mean WHEN, it started and ran and worked and drove. If not for the constant expensive breakdowns, and/or if not for Dodge/Chrysler ignoring all the common problems (and never ever paying up or recalling the faulty head gaskets, the faulty AC's, the faulty Auto Tranny). Heck, if they'd have stood up and covered 2 of those 3 (maybe the 2 that happened prior to 45,000 miles), I'd probably be singing a much different tune today.
I'm still waiting for that "recall type" letter from Chrysler that says they'll reimburse me for repairs I may have already done for some parts up to say 100,000 miles.
I just got a letter from Audi the other day that says I'm good for a warranty extension of 10 years or 120,000 miles (whichever occurs first) on my intake camshaft, camshaft follower, and high pressure fuel pump.
Now, I haven't had a problem with any of those 3 parts yet (not sure what symptoms exactly to look out for though other than MIL light), but it's nice to know Audi's still standing behind the product and providing piece of mind. They have the decency to pay for problems where they know they screwed up maybe a bit too often.
I'm still waiting up at nights and holding my breath for Chrysler to send a similar letter about that Neon. :P When will they have the decency to do so? :sick: Criminals, every single one of them! Fraudsters! :mad:
'21 BMW X3 M40i, '15 Audi S4, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Yeah, there was a hiccup around the turn of the century for several brands, not only MB (although theirs was perhaps the loudest). Everyone raced out of malaise by around 1990 and everything seemed good again, but there's a blip at the end of the 90s. By the middle of the oughts most seemed to be progressing well again.
They weight some 350-400 or so lbs more than a Miata, though, and that's a pretty big handicap.
For me it wasn't even the weight, it was the fussy top. Ugly up, ugly down, takes up the whole trunk, and top it all off you had to get out of the car! Couldn't have been a worse design.
Didn't see any, nor at any of the track events I've been to with the Audi Club. However, there's always a good contingent of Corvette at either type of event. Speaking of GM:
At the track in Pahrump, NV, I got to see a CTS-V, and a brand new Camaro (V6 with auto tranny).
The Camaro blew it's automatic transmission in the afternoon run. Fluid on the dirt (thankfully he got off the track paving in time), and was towed off the track.
Someone suggested it was a Hertz rental! LOL. I dont' know if that's true or not, but being a V6 with auto tranny and steel wheels, it might be. I wonder if GM will stand up for the warranty :P If he's smart he'll just say it happened in the parking lot :P
'21 BMW X3 M40i, '15 Audi S4, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I loved the Solistice! A person in my neighborhood owns a red one of the last year made. Beautiful car. GM needs to have a 2 seater in its line-up. Should keep the Solistice going in my opinion. Don't know what the Neon talk is all about. I have 2 friends that own them. One is a 2002 with over 130,000 miles and he claims it runs fine. The other is a 2004 and it still runs. Don't know what the mileage is on it. So all Neons cannot be in the junk yard. I'm not claiming the Neon as being all mighty and the most reliable vehicle, but they can't be all that bad.
It wasn't uncommon for people to show up at our events in rental cars. Usually something like a Neon or Sentra. They beat the crap out of it and return it.
I wouldn't expect to many Solstice/skys showing up at autocrosses. Just not enough of them made and they certainly don't have the aftermarket support that a Miata has.
I had a '95 Neon Sport coupe that I bought right out of college (probably not my wisest decision), it had the 150hp 2.0 DOHC with a 5 speed. It was definitely quick (but crude) for what it was. I had it two years and put 75k relatively trouble free miles on it. Had minor electrical problems and few suspension issues, but I didn't have any engine or trans issues with it.
The Miata was and still is the better car tho. The Kappa cut too many corners to meet Putzs' pricepoint and it had too many flaws to cement it's success. Trust me, I wanted a Saturn Sky since the concept appeared, I thought it was one of the sexiest roadsters ever made (Still a looker IMO), but beauty was skin deep on that one. The base engine was crude, rough and sounded like a diesel at full bore and while the S/C version added big power, it wasn't enough to overcome the aweful seating position, near zero rearward visibility, beachchairs for cushions and that oh so wonderful clunky gearbox pulled from a the Chevy Colorado pickup truck parts bin that was about as enjoyable as rowing a piece of rebar through a box of rocks...
Look at the first 10 reviews of your precious 2000 Neon. About half are of reviews of a score of 5 out of 10 or lower. That is horrible and terrible at the same time. Many reviews are 3's and 4's. What do they say, mostly "had to replace many many parts."
'21 BMW X3 M40i, '15 Audi S4, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I'm not claiming the Neon as being all mighty and the most reliable vehicle, but they can't be all that bad.
Oh yes they can. If they weren't that bad, then why did Chrysler do the following:
1) rename a Neon the PT Cruiser 2) rename another neon as a Caliber. 3) lose customers and therefore tons of market share 4) go bankrupt and take their 2nd bailout from the gov't and steal from tax payers.
'21 BMW X3 M40i, '15 Audi S4, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Comments
I've seen three out of warranty Audi repairs and I'm still easily under a grand spent. 78,000 miles and going strong; not at all scared. Car still runs like a bullet/vault tight without any annoying rattles or signs that it is "falling apart at the seams."
And by the way, I forget about just as many Neon repairs as I have Audi repairs sometimes. :P After all, the neon was EONS ago according to some here, so I'll forget more due to the effect of time on memory. LIke just recently I remembered the gas tank leak repair in the Neon that I think I forgot about for at least my last 250 Neon-related posts on the forums.
There have been a lot of cheap cars NOT from C and GM over the years that last a long time with high reliability. Cheap is not necessarily equal to unreliable.
Well, My Neon was supremely upkept and maintained with oil changes every 3K and the like. Yes I drove it somewhat hard as a teenager, but not nearly as hard as my Audi has been driven
It wasn't the cheapest car out there at the time, and I didn't get the lowest line model, I got the highest line, the sport model.
Regardless, it was priced similarly to a same year Geo Prism (Toyota Corolla without the prestige and name). My best friend got one of those I believe just 1 or 2 days after my Neon arrived. Now he drove the SNOT out of that car, he raped it over and over everyday without allowing a proper break in. That car was abused, molested, and ravaged the way he drove it from day 1. I'm talking about flooring it as standard operating procedure during every acceleration (lol, it was pretty weak so flooring it in his car was like 66% thottle in the Neon). He got 100,000 flawless miles without any repairs in or out of warranty.
I suppose THAT is what I expected from the "NEW" Dodge, the New American Car Manufacturing Geniuses they'd have you believe to even this day. 100,000 flawless miles please! He sold it to a good friend of his at just over 100,000 miles, I'm sure it served him well for 100K more at least.
I kinda like the Hyundai Azera. If you get the more basic model, it has a really nice cloth interior with little polka-dots that reminds me of an early 80's Olds Ninety-Eight!
I'll also admit I had a soft spot for the old Hyundai XG300/350 cars. There's one I see in the parking lot at work, that's a really attractive light blue color.
I can't remember...do they still make the Azera, or did the Genesis replace it?
Funny, but I can't recall any cars that I owned over the past 10-15 years that needed THREE out-of-warranty repairs, let alone one.
Let's see:
2004 Mazda6 - 92K miles when sold (exactly $0 in repairs not under warranty)
1999 Pontiac Grand Am SE - 87K miles (one repair for a fried HVAC fan resistor)
And lest I forget: 2000 Dodge Neon - traded in in '07 with 110K miles, with one out-of-warranty repair (water pump at 98K miles). The shocks were shot at trade in, but that was it. 5-speed manual still had the original clutch, all trim pieces were accounted for, and the only noises I heard when driving were caused by the worn shocks. It never failed to start, never stalled on it's own, was never towed, and as much as I didn't care for the car, it was my wife's DD and she loved it.
Hyundai Europe had the gall to try to sell that thing at the same price as a lower line E class or 5er, at least in Germany. Guess how well that worked out.
I'm just demonstrating that even any Audi is still cheaper to own and repair than your typical domestic.... (excluding Ford maybe for the last couple years). So a luxury car costs less to own than the cheapest of the cheapest domestic, you betcha, I"m a living example and my Audi has 13,000 more miles than the Neon could ever go. It's just LIGHT YEARS apart. I got an extra 100 HP nowadays with the same real world economy of the old Neon fuel wise. Disgraceful!
I think the days of people getting rid of their Audi's at 50K miles is over. But I can see why many do it. With Audi dealers being allowed to charge $125 per hour for labor, that could scare even Donald Trump!
It's hard to find a good mechanic, let alone a good Audi/German car mechanic. But now that I've found one, and they'll hook me up with $50/hour labor rates (not quite a case of beer good), I"m not scared of anything.
VW is no Audi, and Audi is no VW. They don't have nearly the same quality control. Even as an Audi fanboy now, (thanks to my ownership experience), I'd still not recommend VW. I don't know if they've learned their lessons yet like Audi has, but they have made their powertrain warranty 10K miles longer than Audi's because "they had to." Mainly due to quality control issues. Audi still gets away with a 50K warranty, VW is at 60K for the powertrain, and they are the NON LUXURY brand!!!, but I"d take the Audi with a shorter warranty any day because I won't have to use it as much.
It take a lot more footwork, but it ends up with your repairs only being a little more expensive, than say, a Toyota.
Experiences like that, and good personal experiences with other brands, still keep me from considering VW/Audi, even though they make plenty of interesting products.
Although VW owns Audi, it is obvious from anyone who has looked or researched the facts and data, that they practice different quality control techniques, and have a different culture at Audi than they do at VW as a whole.
The Optima SX is far behind the sophistication of BMW, I understand that. But for under $30K with the performance, efficiency and feature content, it is easily an 80% figure in my experience even for the drive.
It is NOT a track day-car but how many 3-series owners track their rides?
Fully loaded Optima SX = $29,439 (Edmunds TMV)
Fully Loaded 328i = $41,768 (Optima still has added features than in this price for BMW)
I already concede the 3'er would run rings around the Optima....except in the financial planning arena! :surprise:
You get what you pay for.
Regards,
OW
Of course they do
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I agree, they weren't cars to aspire to by any means, but Chrysler did a bangup job with the chassis on those. :shades:
Me? I like the looks of the Sonata when it's in full dress. But not the lower trim models, they just look sorta Rentabu-ish to me. But the Optima has such a great profile (not Audi or BMW but racier than the average Camcord) that even in lower trimlines, it looks sharp. And I have driven the non-Turbo Optima and came away very impressed. It had the chassis dynamics, sprightly handling and nimbleness reminiscent of my old gen 6 Accords.
I wouldn't knock it without trying it :shades:
The Neon lured in a lot of buyers who probably never would have otherwise bought a Chrysler product. And unfortunately, many of those early buyers would never buy another, once the quality control problems started popping up.
I'll usually see some souped-up Neons at the Mopar show I go to in Carlisle PA every year, so they do still have their following. I wish Chrysler would have stuck it out with the Neon, and continued to improve it and work out the bugs, rather than just give up and replace it with the heavier, thirstier Caliber. IMO, the Caliber is more of a Matrix/Vibe type of vehicle. Chrysler shouldn't have just given up the mainstream compact market. Even if they could never hope to topple the Corolla or Civic, that market was still too important to just give up.
You just pick apart others posts and attack. Got it.
Carry on :lemon:
Fun times. I used to autocross in the late 90's. Neons and Miatas always seemed to kick but. If I were to do it again, I'd probably use a Miata. Tons of parts, RWD, and lots of performance upgrades available along with being a great handling car for a tight autocross course. I used my SVT Contour and co-drove a buddies MR2. Man that was fun. With the MR2 I was introduced to throttle lift oversteer. I spun it like a "top" more than once:)
One thing with Autocross, big HP doesn't do a whole lot. Usually the guys/gals driving big HP RWD cars (older vettes, mustangs, and camaros etc) spent more time smoking their tires. We had a guy that had a supercharged 302 powered Cobra replica who always put on a good show, though his times usually sucked! His runs usually ended with a big smoky donut! I doubt much has changed, but outside of a Corvette and some F bodies, I didn't see many GM vehicles.
GM never had a small FWD car that was any good for autocross. A Cavalier was lunch to Neons, Sentras, and VWs back then. The rare occasions I raced my Contour against Grand Am GTs it was an easy win. Unfortunately that was the same class as Ford Probes and Eagle Talons and the they were tough. Particularly AWD Talons, my only chance was I could drive better, but that certainly wasn't always the case;)
Aren't the Grand Cherokee and Dodge Durango using Mercedes ML bits and pieces?
It will take a while for the divorce to be complete.
Are they engines made in the same plant? I don't know so I'm asking...
Her Passat's problems were mostly engine/electronics.
I suspect the new 300/Charger still has some W210 DNA in it too.
Azera is getting a much needed re-do soon, here's a preview:
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/12/01/video-new-hyundai-azera-grandeur-caught-in-mo- tion/
Genesis just added DI to the V6 model and their own 8 speed automatic for 333hp and 29mpg highway, all for $35k with freight.
Da-ha-hayum that's an amazing value.
Add the leather package (real cowhide on the dash BTW) and Navi and you're still under $40k.
Pretty much anything priced higher will give you diminishing returns. May be a tad nicer, have brand cachet, better resale or whatever, but won't match that incredible value.
Too bad I don't like sedans.
Gotcha.
Benzes used Chrysler parts? Yikes.
I guess you can cut costs sharing stuff that the customer doesn't come in to contact with directly.
As far as I know, no Chrysler parts went into the Benzes, although there were probably parts that were designed to go into both.
And oddly enough, in some cases, it was the Benz components that were causing the problems! For instance, when the 300C and Magnum came out for 2005, it wasn't the old, notorious 4-speed automatic that gave them troubles, but the new, Benz-sourced 5-speed!
Maybe something like a wheel that fits a 300 or Charger might also fit a Benz, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. A 300/Charger wheel would also fit my old 2000 Intrepid (although it would stick out more), '79 New Yorker, and '57 DeSoto...they all use the same 4.5 inch bolt pattern.
I've noticed that too, that there seemed to be lot of pressure on the industry in general to start cost-cutting and cheapen things around the late 90's/early 00's timeframe. Cars were getting more technologically advanced, more required safety features, etc, but the consumers were still balking at rising prices, so something had to give. One Japanese example that really jumps out to me is the 1997 Camry, versus the 1992-96.
And I remember looking at a 1991-96 era Buick Park Ave a few weeks ago, fairly closely, and it just seemed like a higher-quality car than the 1997-2005 style. I think the newer platform has nicer lines, and has more presence to it, and probably more features and so on, but in little details, such as interior parts, trim and such, the older model just seemed higher quality.
I agree, but I think it goes in cycles, de-contenting, then adding content. Plus not all manufacturers do it on the same schedule.
Right now, for the most part, I think we're seeing cost cutting. They blame it on currencies, or say that hard/cheap plastics are lighter and it's necessary to reduce weight, but it's happening.
Go sit in a base Jetta. Boy did they cut costs to get that entry price to $16k.
There are always exceptions, and makes moving in opposite directions.
Then go sit in a new Hyundai, just about any of them. Compare to a Hyundai from a decade ago, and you'll be shocked at how much they've improved.
Look a the new Jeep Grand Cherokee - much nicer now.
Ford finally decided to let us have a truly new Focus, after how long?
This is a GM thread, let's see...the Equinox is a massive improvement over its predecessor. Nicer design, DI engines, like night and day.
So different models/makes have been going in different directions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Sujv90PLLY&feature=player_embedded
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Electrical problems in a Volkswagen? Say it ain't so! :P
That's if anybody buys one because of a fear of "range anxiety"...
Fast-forward to a 2-day autocross event in San Diego by the BMW club (open to all makes and models though to a limit) in 2010 (haven't done any yet this year), and none of those old Neons run any more :lemon: :sick: They must be in the junkyard, not a single one made it to the event in 2010.
There were, however, some old Miata's, some old BMW's, and some somewhat old Subaru's though. Plenty of 3ers (granted it's a BMW club event), Plenty of M's, not a lot of Audi's (they prefer tracks I guess), good amount of Lotus'.
And the Lotus? Ah Lotus... Love me some Exige or Elise, those are the purest "drivers cars" out there IMO :shades: And Toyota reliability!
Or you could say GM never had a car that was any good for autocross period. (Except Corvette).
Or you could say GM never had a good FWD car. Period. :lemon:
Or you could say GM never had a good small RWD and/or AWD car that would have been good for autocross. :mad:
Of course they do
Sorf of like that GMC "professional grade" being different from Chevy. :shades:
As I've said before, it was a pretty decent car for its time when, and I do mean WHEN, it started and ran and worked and drove. If not for the constant expensive breakdowns, and/or if not for Dodge/Chrysler ignoring all the common problems (and never ever paying up or recalling the faulty head gaskets, the faulty AC's, the faulty Auto Tranny). Heck, if they'd have stood up and covered 2 of those 3 (maybe the 2 that happened prior to 45,000 miles), I'd probably be singing a much different tune today.
I'm still waiting for that "recall type" letter from Chrysler that says they'll reimburse me for repairs I may have already done for some parts up to say 100,000 miles.
I just got a letter from Audi the other day that says I'm good for a warranty extension of 10 years or 120,000 miles (whichever occurs first) on my intake camshaft, camshaft follower, and high pressure fuel pump.
Now, I haven't had a problem with any of those 3 parts yet (not sure what symptoms exactly to look out for though other than MIL light), but it's nice to know Audi's still standing behind the product and providing piece of mind. They have the decency to pay for problems where they know they screwed up maybe a bit too often.
I'm still waiting up at nights and holding my breath for Chrysler to send a similar letter about that Neon. :P When will they have the decency to do so? :sick: Criminals, every single one of them! Fraudsters! :mad:
Can you clarify, do you want a Leaf or the tow vehicle, a Tundra? LOL
They weight some 350-400 or so lbs more than a Miata, though, and that's a pretty big handicap.
For me it wasn't even the weight, it was the fussy top. Ugly up, ugly down, takes up the whole trunk, and top it all off you had to get out of the car! Couldn't have been a worse design.
Didn't see any, nor at any of the track events I've been to with the Audi Club. However, there's always a good contingent of Corvette at either type of event. Speaking of GM:
At the track in Pahrump, NV, I got to see a CTS-V, and a brand new Camaro (V6 with auto tranny).
The Camaro blew it's automatic transmission in the afternoon run. Fluid on the dirt (thankfully he got off the track paving in time), and was towed off the track.
Someone suggested it was a Hertz rental! LOL. I dont' know if that's true or not, but being a V6 with auto tranny and steel wheels, it might be. I wonder if GM will stand up for the warranty :P If he's smart he'll just say it happened in the parking lot :P
Don't know what the Neon talk is all about. I have 2 friends that own them. One is a 2002 with over 130,000 miles and he claims it runs fine. The other is a 2004 and it still runs. Don't know what the mileage is on it. So all Neons cannot be in the junk yard. I'm not claiming the Neon as being all mighty and the most reliable vehicle, but they can't be all that bad.
It wasn't uncommon for people to show up at our events in rental cars. Usually something like a Neon or Sentra. They beat the crap out of it and return it.
I wouldn't expect to many Solstice/skys showing up at autocrosses. Just not enough of them made and they certainly don't have the aftermarket support that a Miata has.
No love lost for the Kappa here, sorry.
I actually went to NAIAS in 2006 and saw the Solistice concept, and loved it. Went again in 2007 to see the production debut.
They got the styling right, but the top looked like it had been engineered by two 4th graders with fabric and a staple gun.
Amazingly, probably due to pent-up demand and the sheer number of dealers, the Sky/Solistice outsold the Miata for as long as they were sold.
Still, I wouldn't mind seeing GM try again, to be honest. Hopefully they would execute it better this time.
http://autos.msn.com/research/userreviews/reviewlist.aspx?ModelID=3112&search=Mo- stRecent&num=5&pos=0&RL=540058,538886,535664,533745,532337,530479,529501,527932,- 526211,512410,498671,496735,496631,490148,489338,485384,474618,473268,473184,468- 468,466725,466080,465278,464613,461183,459756,443893,440896,440605,433177,430061- ,425919,421919,419641,418437,413326,412811,409977,409628,406189,402331,402115,39- 3366,389517,389120,388711,386873,385084,384159,382694,382442,381314,380504,37954- 9,378765,378472,377789,374962,372176,371986,370363,367715,366828,365776,365584,3- 61935,360039,359756,359193,359093,358013,357170,356661,356203,355649,354189,3538- 71,353254,353098,351710,350999,345741,345465,345309,342247,341744,341541,340846,- 340190,340019,339901,339289,335068,334278,332680,332226,331606,330835,330482,329- 896,329401,329090,325284,324960,324919,324003,323825,323818,323686,322836,320244- ,319334,318499,317973,313579,313215,312842,310507,309402,307814,306446,306319,30- 6200,305841,304670,304421,303303,300641,300476,300143,300041,298704,296708,29668- 4,296550,295679,295147,294016,293305,290883,289841,289134,287096,286552,285362,2- 85138,284969,283914,282927,281975,281223,279333,278809,278053,275247,272579,2725- 20,271545,269982,267958,263128,263028,262996,262902,262227,260279,259802,258323,- 255209,253646,252743,251706,251593,247820,247509,246779,246046,245054,244355,243- 902,242545,242114,241655,241615,240903,237919,237213,236096,236052,236035,235782- ,234988,234173,233914,233716,233709,233509,232033,228185,226949,&csort=MostRecen- t#reviewnav
Look at the first 10 reviews of your precious 2000 Neon. About half are of reviews of a score of 5 out of 10 or lower. That is horrible and terrible at the same time. Many reviews are 3's and 4's. What do they say, mostly "had to replace many many parts."
Oh yes they can. If they weren't that bad, then why did Chrysler do the following:
1) rename a Neon the PT Cruiser
2) rename another neon as a Caliber.
3) lose customers and therefore tons of market share
4) go bankrupt and take their 2nd bailout from the gov't and steal from tax payers.