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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,855
    Let's just be honest...

    That's a pretty tall order, imidazo! LOL
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    The Malibu is 36.8, the Fusion much, much larger at 38.3, and the Sonata 34.6--more than two inches less than even the Malibu! That was an eye-opener.

    Yeah, but take those measurements with a grain of salt. To throw some ancient relics into the mix, I believe the rear seat legroom meaurement on my '76 LeMans is 32.9", and my '68 Dart was only about 32". Yet I fit in both better than I would this Malibu...although they're both cramped for me. And, I fit in the Dart a bit better than the LeMans, although the LeMans has a much more comfortable, thicker seat.

    I just looked up the specs for my '67 Catalina (here's the page, courtesy of TOCMP) and they list the front seat legroom for the convertible at 42.7", and 33.9 in the back. Yet, I fit just fine in the back seat. :confuse:

    And, I think that 42.7" front legroom measurement is suspect. My 2000 Intrepid (42.2"), '79 New Yorkers (42.3"), '76 LeMans (42.4"...I just checked the '76 Buick Century brochure...the LeMans brochure doesn't list interior dimensions), 2000 Park Ave (42.4") and my old '89 Gran Fury (42.5"), all felt roomier up front. The LeMans may not be a fair comparison though, because it has a power seat that goes into some seriously contorted positions. I can actually get it back so far that I can't reach the pedals!

    It really makes me wonder how, exactly, they measure legroom? Because my own personal experiences often don't line up with the published specs.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    It really makes me wonder how, exactly, they measure legroom? Because my own personal experiences often don't line up with the published specs.

    It's not consistent. I'll bet most manufacturers provide the maximum possible legroom for each seating position though. Which means that while you COULD get that 42 in the front, and you COULD get 32 in the back, you won't get both at the same time.

    It'd be nice to see both minimum and maximum legroom for front and back. Still wouldn't tell the whole store but it would be more helpful.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,855
    edited September 2012
    One would think there'd be some SAE standard for measuring those things and publishing them, but maybe not.

    I always remember Chevelle coupes of the '70's (same wheelbase as your LeMans, 112"), having 32.9 inches of rear-seat legroom. The Nova coupe, on a 111" wheelbase, actually had 33.4 inches of rear-seat legroom. I remember full-size Chevy coupes having 35.3" and the downsized '77 full-size coupes having 37-and some odd inches of rear seat legroom. Chevy even had an ad titled "The Long-Legged Coupe". Of course, those cars didn't have Ford's "road-hugging weight"!

    http://file.vintageadbrowser.com/kjygqsjso7oacd.jpg
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,855
    Re.: 3rd world excursions...hell, I remember a story of a Studebaker Lark wagon being used in Costa Rica by missionaries and it barely skipping a beat--and that story by the owners.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    edited September 2012
    So, GM has a target market for the Malibu of midgets....

    (Truth in posting statement: I'm shorter that uplanderguy but I'm still not sitting behind Andre in a Malibu.....)
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    I'll give anyone 5 to 1 odds that, if they check the lug nut torque on their car after taking it to ANY shop where the wheels have been removed, dealer or independent, the nuts will be severely over-torqued.

    That's a real problem EVERYWHERE!
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    It certainly depends on how bad the vibration is from the rotors. I only notice it on my expedition on a hard stop from a high speed and it's minor. But, it would drive me nuts if I noticed it with every stop. Next brake job (if I still have it) will be new rotors. I'm not going to turn these rotors again with a 6,000lb boat to pull.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,855
    Would using a torque stick not take care of that? It appears to have for me...or my dealer is better than places used to be about that.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I don't think I've ever seen a shop use a torque wrench on lugs.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,855
    My dealer tells me they do, and I haven't had the problem, although I've only ever been invited into the shop a couple times ;).
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited September 2012
    If they say they do, then I don't think they would lie. I honestly don't know if my local service center uses a torque wrench or not. I'm not hard on my brakes. The rotors weren't warped at 70k when I replaced the pads and turned all 4 rotors, but 40k miles later they are a minor amount. They rotate the tires with every oil change which I have done between 4-5k miles.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    >Brake rotor warping can be from a variety of issues. Just over torquing lug nuts will vdo it. Maybe the dealer turned them out of spec the first time, who knows. Fact is, an Odyssey is far nicer than any minivan Ford or GM has ever built and the proof is in the fact they don't make them anymore.

    To interate, If this story were about a GM product, we'd be hearing nothing but ridicule about how GM this and GM didn't that and.... Let's just be honest...

    >My dad had to have the rear brake pads replaced on his accord at 30k miles.

    My God!. My brakes on my leSabres go 70-80K, front AND rears.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    >turned all 4 rotors,

    Turning has been questionable in my mind. It depends on the quality of the original rotor. Once turned you've got a bandaide on, and you're just waiting for them to warp again and need replacement.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Ok, now studebakers are the off road vehicle of choice for those going on a safari or other excursions.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    edited September 2012
    I'll give anyone 5 to 1 odds that, if they check the lug nut torque on their car after taking it to ANY shop where the wheels have been removed, dealer or independent, the nuts will be severely over-torqued.

    That happens.

    Last early March, when taking off my 4 snow tires mounted on extra rims, had a difficult time on one side of the car to take off lug nuts. With a 19MM socket on a long bar, could not break the nuts. Had to put a pipe extension on the bar to apply more torque. That was only on one side of the car. The wheels on the other side were OK. Car had been to dealer for oil change in winter. They always do a "free" check of brake lining depth. I always tell service writer to NOT rotate my tires. I do that myself.

    Stopped by the car dealer and talked to service manager. First question was how and where they check for brake lining depth. He said they usually pull off the front and rear wheels on one side of the car only. Then, told him what I found. He apologized and did not know how that happened in that they only use hand torque wrenches.

    I then politely said the next time I come in, I will ask after car is serviced for one of their petite ladies in the office to use the standard lug wrench from the car trunk to break the lug nuts in front of me.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    I always thought that you only turned a rotor (or drum) when it got scored? But if it warped, you had to replace it? Anyway, a lot of rotors these days are so cheap, and easy to replace, that you're often better off just throwing the old ones away and putting new ones on, than trying to turn the old ones.

    I remember the front rotors on my 2000 Intrepid were pretty bad by around 90,000 miles, which, IIRC, came up around October 2003. Anyway, I bought two new front rotors and front brake pads from Autozone for something like $85, and was able to put them on myself. The rotors were really easy...just pop three little clips, and they came right off, just like taking off a rim.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    What's odd is the front pads lasted over 60k and he has over 50k on his current rear pads. But I've read accords are known for brakes not lasting long. My dad is hard on brakes, he has a 70 mile round trip to work that is pretty much stop light to stop light at 50 MPH and he tends brake hard.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    What's odd is the front pads lasted over 60k and he has over 50k on his current rear pads. But I've read accords are known for brakes not lasting long.

    Of course, lots depends on driving style and where you drive. My wife went a little over 100K miles on her Acura TL before needing brake pads front and back. All pads still had material and rotors were not scored. She drives most miles on interstates and rural roads.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    >I always thought that you only turned a rotor (or drum) when it got scored?

    That used to be in GM service manuals. I didn't read for that in my 03 manual.

    But I noticed in my box of AC Delco ceramic pads it said clearly to turn the rotors. Period. I assume that's to assure that the glaze on the rotor is the same matrix as the resin in the pad. They're assuming the old pads were semimetalic, is my thinking. I put the new ceramic pads on my rotors which had ceramic AC Delco before and have had no trouble.

    I am a firm believer that the original rotors have a one pad life in them. So I got new rotors when the fronts needed the replacement pads. Replacement rotors are high quality Raybestos.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    I am a firm believer that the original rotors have a one pad life in them. So I got new rotors when the fronts needed the replacement pads.

    Suspect that rotors are being made thinner so that a cut cannot be made and still be within thickness specs as shown in shop manual. Years ago, rotors were thicker and could take a cut in a machine shop and still be within specs when new pads installed.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,855
    edited September 2012
    Missionaries from Costa Rica--some time back. I couldn't make that up.

    There are far better people here that can do that ;)

    I remember reading the article in our club magazine at least 15 years ago. Here's an online story about a Lark wagon being driven from Central America to the 'States, in 2008:

    http://www.advmo.com/blog/labels/Studebaker.html
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Rotors on a 1/2 ton truck/suv are not cheap. Quality rotors are over $125 each for my expedition. Times 4 and the brake job just got fairly expensive.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I'm not disputing you, but I wasn't taking about Studebakers. I said I haven't seen many Ford and GM suvs being used in those environments. I'm sure there are a few, but for the most part you see rovers and landcruisers in such places.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    Do trucks still use the old fashioned 1-piece rotors with the bearing hub built in? Or have they started using the 2-piece style like a lot of cars?

    Way back in 1997, I had to put a '79 Chrysler Newport through inspection, and it needed new rotors, the old 1-piece style. They were about $100 a pop, even back then.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,855
    I'm sure there are a few, but for the most part you see rovers and landcruisers in such places.

    I wouldn't know, as I don't visit third-world countries, but sadly I know I see many a Big Three product on the news in the Middle East. Matter-of-fact, I sold my '93 Caprice Classic in '99 to an outfit who solely exported them to Saudi.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Suspect that rotors are being made thinner so that a cut cannot be made and still be within thickness specs as shown in shop manual. Years ago, rotors were thicker and could take a cut in a machine shop and still be within specs when new pads installed.

    That is exactly what my mechanic says.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Well they do have roads there. I don't visit those places either, but read national geographic or watch animal planet and I've yet to see a Ford or GM, it's usual a land Rover, landcruiser and a jeep.

    The middle east is a great place to dispose of all those old b-bodies.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited September 2012
    I think they are two piece on the newer trucks, but I'm not positive. They are big and I imagine they are a lot heavier than what you'd find on an average car. Granted the expedition weighs over 6k lbs plus a decent cargo capacity. While it certainly doesn't stop.like my wife's Taurus, the brakes do feel strong when loaded and towing stuff.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,923
    IMO rotors are a wear and tear item, not a warranty issue. It is not a warrantable part unless it was defective in manufactering/workmanship in some way.

    Having said that, the brake pads in my '03 Accord Coupe required replacement at 30K miles. I was not happy with that. The car didn't beg to be driven hard, so it hadn't been taken on very spirited drives nor any track time. Also, the brakes weren't particularly powerful or strong; to warrant a short life-span.

    However, if the choice is between skimping on a wear and tear item/part, I'd rather a company follow Honda's method than Chrysler's choice to skimp out on non-temporary parts.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited September 2012
    If your shop does torque to specifications, then you have a good dealership.

    It's rare...

    From what I've seen, pneumatic tools have become the curse in many situations.

    The majority of shops have a central air-system, and pressure is regulated at the source, nowhere else.

    Usually, the shop has only the basic pnumatic tools which have no torque settings...tightness depends solely on the supplied air pressure. Commercial quality air wrenches have the capability of torque settings, but of course, costs more. Short of that, a manual torque wrench works, but that takes additional effort and time...

    And it's not just in the automotive world where pnumatic tools, used improperly, cause problems. Lots of roofers use ir hammers with cheap air compressors with no regulator, so when applying shingles, the air-driven staple is either driven completely through the single or not "snugged up" to the shingle surface, which allows for much more wind-removed shingles.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,923
    I thank people like you and Dieselone sharing your recent experiences with GM vehicles.

    They ring way too eerily similar to my experiences with a Chrysler product.

    I have no interest in repeating history and repeating my purchasing mistakes of the past.

    Honda and Audi have been way too good to me for that to happen.

    I hear the '13 Accord might be an Altima killer.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,923
    My God!. My brakes on my leSabres go 70-80K, front AND rears.

    Yes, but the difference between how I drove my Accord and how I drive my A3 is probably about the same large margin as the difference between how an Accord gets driven and a LeSabre!
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    The '13 accord should be a Camry killer. The more I read, the more I'm impressed by it. IMO it is far more impressive than the Camry. I don't see the Malibu fairing well overall, even Ford is probably sweating about how the new fusion will fair. I love the fact both the accord and fusion will be offeredwith a manual trans.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Yeah, I've rented and drove enough lesabres, regals, and park Aves to know they are certainly not engaging vehicles to drive.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,855
    Another thing from my visit this morning to my Chevy dealership.

    They had an orange Sonic hatch in the showroom. Sticker was $15-odd. As I said, I have great disdain for the shape of the hatch, but I don't think they were designing the Sonic for me. The salesman volunteered, "We don't move many of the sedans. We move a lot more of the hatch". So for its target market, apparently having a hatch was a good thing.

    Fifteen minutes ago, a maroon Sonic sedan passed me going the other direction. I still like the looks much better. Being maroon, it was probably an extra-cost color. I hate that concept!
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    They had an orange Sonic hatch in the showroom. Sticker was $15-odd. As I said, I have great disdain for the shape of the hatch, but I don't think they were designing the Sonic for me.

    No, that's a car for 20 somethings. I'd think you'd prefer a Cruze. I like hatches for for the functionality over styling.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,855
    edited September 2012
    The middle east is a great place to dispose of all those old b-bodies.

    I got $1,400 more than a dealer offered me in trade, and they came and paid me cash in my driveway and drove it away, doing the title work right in the driveway!

    I used to constantly get post cards from two or three companies..."We buy Caprices! Call us first, call us last, just call us, top dollar paid!" So I did.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I never really warmed up to the looks of the last gen Caprice. It looked awkward to me. For whatever reason I preferred the previous body style.

    I think I've mentioned it before, but my grandpa's 87 Caprice Classic Brougham LS was my favorite of the large GM sedans he had back then spanning from an '83 Old 88 to the '92 Roadmaster he had after the Caprice.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Well, Ford and Toyota have hybrids, where Honda is relying on N/A engines so far.

    Should be interesting to see the next compro between the Fusion, Camry, Accord, Mazda6, and Malibu. But I have a funny feeling that the rear legroom in that Malibu is going to drag it way down.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    The salesman volunteered, "We don't move many of the sedans. We move a lot more of the hatch".

    But GM keeps telling us Americans don't buy hatchbacks? You're not saying GM is wrong are you? :shades:
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    I didn't really care for the style of the final-gen B-bodies, either. Now, it wasn't so bad that I'd refuse a nice one if I needed a car, but I do prefer the more angular models that came before.

    To its credit though, the Caprice improved a lot for 1993 when they opened up the rear wheel openings, and even more for '95-96, when they gave the beltline a little up-kick at the rear quarter windows.

    I think the main problem is that the cars just seemed too fat, like they hung too far over the frame rails. And, while I like big windows and open, airy passenger cabins, on the Caprice/Roadmaster/Fleetwood, the beltline just seemed TOO low.

    Overall, I think the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis/Town Car made the transition to aerodynamics better than the big GM cars did. I think I'd still prefer a GM car, mainly because the Fords are so much more common. That, and the later GM's with the LT-1 V-8 could be pretty sweet!
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I think a new hybrid accord is coming later, but I don't for see the lack of a hybrid costing them a bunch of sales. Outside of a Prius, what hybrids sell in big numbers?

    The fusion hybrid looks impressive, as does the new Ford c-max hybrid.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,408
    I think a lot of old smaller 6cyl cars were capable of withstanding a lot of abuse. Old similar MB can rack up lots of miles too.

    But for big SUVs, if I was stuck in some hellhole, I'd probably take a Landcruiser over anything from Detroit.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Well, somebody has to replace all those cars they burn and blow up in all those demonstrations...

    I'm guessing an American made vehicle burns just as well as a European, Japanese or Korean made vehicle...
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I agree with your entire post Andre. My dad had a fully loaded 92 crown Vic which I liked a lot better than grandpa's roadmaster. The roadmaster with the 180hp 350 felt sluggish and slow to Rev compared to the smoother and far more responsive 4.6 in the cv. The cv had 4 wheel disk brakes and just felt like a more refined car overall. The roadmaster at that time just drove to sloppy and sluggish. I swear it could drag the door handles on a curve, yeah, the lt1 350 certainly changed things, but I doubt more power would have been enough to make the RM enjoyable to drive unless they made any suspension and steering upgrades.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    But for big SUVs, if I was stuck in some hellhole, I'd probably take a Landcruiser over anything from Detroit.

    No doubt about that. A landcruiser while boring and expensive, is a far better engineered and built vehicle over anything from Detroit.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,855
    Not the first time I've said; won't be the last. It's you other guys who can't say that GM does anything right, or that similar problems in other makes are as bad or even worse.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,855
    To get the suspension upgrades on the Chevy, one had to get the LTZ, which was essentially the police package underneath, or the Impala SS in '94 or later.

    I've read several times over the years that cops generally preferred the Chevys to the Crown Vics; but maybe them not catching fire so quickly when slammed from behind had something to do with it. I've also read a comment by a taxi owner in NYC who said when the Chevys had the 350 engine, he preferred them, durability-wise, to the Fords as well.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,408
    And other market versions aren't the overly plush obese cruisers aimed at the "we built this" set - they are actual utility vehicles. I don't see many utilitarian Suburbans anymore.

    So, to answer that question earlier, a similar vehicle is indeed made by the Japanese.
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