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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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Comments

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    It's good PR for Buick any way you cut it I think.

    The Comments: Consumer Reports/JD Power Rankings discussion is still pretty active I see.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    My '96 Riv lost the MAF sensor at about 155k miles and the air shocks in the rear at 11 yrs old. I'm at 171k miles now without a trip to a mechanic or dealer for work besides tires. The starter went at 168k but in my driveway, luckily. I read they were expensive to get worked on before I bought it used with 88k on it. I also read most people got 22-23 mpg and that superchargers were $1600 to replace. I averaged 27 mpg and the SC is hanging in there. I drove it out of the neighborhood in 10 inches of unplowed snow in January. My 5 year total spent is in the $900's including tires so it has done better than I expected. Planning to flush the original coolant Saturday. I got it in '04. I see almost my exact car online Autotrader for $5495 with 99k miles on it. It has some features mine doesn't, like pass. side heated seat, tilt down mirrors in reverse gear, chrome alloys, heated mirrors, and it is 3 years newer with 72k less miles. In comparison, mine is worth next to nothing but I like the silent 7 second pushrod series 2 with SC engine, block heater, powerful DZ a/c, 8 way power heated seat and 46" long trunk. Buick topped lexus back in '96 also.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    For Buick yes; Cadillac too. But ALL of the other GM brands are below average, some well below.

    Here's another good quote about the usefulness of the JD study:

    The whole focus on visits, trips, problems, etc. is completely misplaced in my view. The two things which really matter to a vehicle owner are the amount of money spent keeping the vehicle going and the amount of time you have to do without it. Replacing a burned out brake light bulb is not of similar consequence to needing a $1000 brake control module replacement. As far as the publicly touted JDP results go, both are equal weight. Just dumb.

    The range of 1.2 “problems” per vehicle from the best to 2.6 for the worst is so narrow as to make the results meaningless. How many repair attempts do these problems represent? How much did it cost? 1.2 Jaguar “problems” could very well be many times more costly than 2.6 Suzuki problems … it all depends what they were!

    As a potential buyer, what I would want to know is how many days I am likely to be without my car and how much extra money it is likely to shake out of my wallet.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    That's true - when people go overboard touting a long warranty as some big advantage, I say that's fine, but I really don't want to have to ever use it. As most of y'all know, I just want to weld my hood shut and drive.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Buick Cobalt? How about a "very" upscale Cobalt rebadged to Cadillac Cimaron? And, one could get it serviced at friendly and attentive Cadillac dealers.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    Is there a listing of problem types reported for each of the cars on JDP? Would you post a link.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    I know they did mention that they changed the sorts of problems they were taking into account this time around which they said could account for some of the changes but they also said that they thought the new method they were using more accurately reflects reality.

    Whatever it does it speaks well for Buick.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Geeze, if my Park Avenue is junk, it's pretty darn good junk!!! If it was any better, I should be able to put it through a steel reinforced 4 ft thick concrete wall, jump 25 schoolbuses with it, and win LeMans afterwards.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    I thought you already did that with it....
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    None of those things compares to daily Philadelphia driving - especially on the notorious Roosevelt Blvd.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    I hear you. I like Philadelphia but you get loads of points for having cars hold up in there.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    And, one could get it serviced at friendly and attentive Cadillac dealers.

    Except that the Cadillac dealer around here is a Chevy/Cadillac dealer. So you're going to get the same good ol' Cobalt service with your Cadillac Cobalt.
  • torque_rtorque_r Member Posts: 500
    But it seems that even the folks at GM disagree with you. None of the cars you drive now exists in GM's stable. Even the DTS will be killed soon. I would assume if the cars were so good, GM would have kept them alive. They just went the way of the Skylark, Nova, and Lumina.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Would be interesting to see a list of scrapped GM models since say 1950. How many pages long would it be? Anyone know of such a list? What is the most obscure brand model? What was the shortest production run of any GM model? Would that be Buick Reatta, Cadillac Allante, Cadillac Catera, Cadillac Cimmaron, Cadillac DTS, Oldsmobile Achieva, Buick Park Avenue, Chevy SSR, or what?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Technically, the DTS is a very old name. It stands for DeVille Touring Sedan. The DeVille name goes back to 1949.

    Well, if you want obscure, there's the short-lived Viking and Marquette nameplates - junior makes to Oldsmobile and Buick from back in the late 1920s-early 1930s.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,022
    Would be interesting to see a list of scrapped GM models since say 1950. How many pages long would it be? Anyone know of such a list?

    I think you can thank the way domestics market the cars moreso than any failing of the cars themselves. They'd have a habit of coming out with a new name for what's really the same price and class of car, in order to make you think that you were getting something all-new and exciting.

    For example, once upon a time, Bel Air was the name of the highest trim level Chevy. It was moved down a notch for 1959 when the Impala became a full lineup (it was just a hardtop coupe and convertible for 1958). It was moved down again when Caprice came out for 1965. Now the Caprice started off in a somewhat limited fashion, as well. Initially it was only offered in hardtop coupe and hardtop sedan versions, but eventually the pillared sedan joined the ranks. For 1972, the convertible was called Impala, and for 1973, it was called Caprice. However, a '73 Caprice was no nicer than a '72 Impala, and the only reason it was more expensive was because of inflation. It's not like that model suddenly moved more upscale.

    As for short model runs, Buick had a model called the Centurion in 1971-73. It was slotted between the LeSabre and the Electra. For 1974, it became the LeSabre Luxus, which morphed into the LeSabre Custom, and eventually the LeSabre Limited.

    Then there was the Apollo, their version of the Nova. I think it only ran from 1973-74, and then they called it Skylark from 1975 on.

    I wonder if GM and the rest of the domestics would have been better served if they just kept the same old names around, rather than dumping them every few years for something new. Heck, with Chevy all they'd have to do is rename the Cobalt a Nova, and suddenly it's 1967 again!

    I think Bonneville might have technically been the longest continuously used GM name, running from 1957-2006. The Corvette's been around longer, but did not have a 1973 model year. Century is an old name, dating back to 1939 I believe, but it was off the market from 1959-72.
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    Yes, the supplier I work for does quite a bit of HVAC / Climate controls for automotive, heavy truck, military and agri equipment. Seems like every company I go to I'm able to work on different aspects of vehicles:

    First interior / exterior components for trucks from mini through Class 8 trucks, as well as autos, SUVs, agri and military, basically everything you could imagine

    Then dealt with batteries & electrical/charging systems for the above

    Now valving and controls HVAC and coolant systems (am not responsible for the DEX-Cool).

    Unfortunately we've been hit with lay-offs and some plant consolidations but as far as I know we're not asking for bailout monies. We are also not going for GM, or anyone else, paying us 18 months out. We are diversified so not directly tied to the hip like some suppliers. Just wish some of the higher-ups where not so heavy about pushing more and more for Chinese tool reliance.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Cool. I am working on the propulsion/engine program for the Volt program and I can vouch for it when I say the Volt IS real :blush:

    And the sucker is gonna be very, very heavy...
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Is there a listing of problem types reported for each of the cars on JDP?

    You probably have to pay for that info. JD Power does list the common problems reported on car types. Here's the link.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Right! My 2003 Denali has cost over $3K in repairs and 1 car rental! Nice!

    Regards,
    OW
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,924
    Since we have a lot of bailout fanatics in DC and Wall Street that love what is going on, I suggest the following:

    Why don't bailed out millionaires who keep their jobs due to bail out tax money coming from tax payers use their bailout bonus funds to buy bailed out GM vehicles using bailed out bank money coming from a bailed out bank with bailout loan funds to finance the vehicle.

    Then they should take those GM Vehicles to AIG to sign up for bailed-out AIG Insurance. With their bailout AIG insurance they should then drive themselves off a cliff and collect bailout funds from AIG Insurance to replace the value of the totaled bailed-out vehicle and also have their families collect on bailout funds from AIG life insurance since they are now dead after having killed themselves.

    Perhaps they could also make sure that before they drive off that cliff, they go buy a US Auto supplier's replacement parts from bailed out auto supplier companies for all those defective and broken parts that continuallly break down in domestic vehicles. I'm sure on the drive to that cliff numerous problems with parts will crop up before they get to the chosen cliff destination in that bailed-out domestic vehicle.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Great post! Why do you think Wagoner is working for $1?? So he can apply for more bailout funds next month and award himself a bailout bonus! :surprise:

    Regards,
    OW
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Great post! Why do you think Wagoner is working for $1?? So he can apply for more bailout funds next month and award himself a bailout bonus!

    Hmm, I wonder how that new TARP bonus legislation will work for a guy who collects $1 a year in income? I bet he wasn't banking on that bit coming down the pike. :shades: Technically, what GM has received is TARP funds, and they got more than $5 billion too.
  • carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,575
    Why do you think Wagoner is working for $1?? So he can apply for more bailout funds next month and award himself a bailout bonus!

    Umm, I think he's using the $17 million he earned for 2007 to help get him through, although it's a struggle.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Do you have any cost estimates? What is taking so long? Wouldn't it have been better for GM to build a top notch Prius Fighter at a lower cost?
    I'm all for the Volt, but at $40k I would rather buy a BMW or F-250.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Cost estimates as far as what we would pay for a Volt have been anywhere between 40 and 45 grand :sick: There is supposedly going to be a tax credit of around 7500 bucks, so maybe 33 - 34 grand when all is said and done? For a car with an unproven history, zero reputation and reliability history...

    Or one could spend 22k and get a Toyota Prius with 12 years of solid reputation, continuous improvements and a rock solid reliability history. Or if you have the 33 grand to blow on a Volt but want just a bit :blush: more luxury and value with your purchase, Lexus will sell you an HS250 for about the price of the Chevy economy car.

    Or if you want a more spacious midsize car, both the Ford Fusion hybrid, Nissan Altima hybrid and Toyota Camry hybrid price out for a few grand less than the Volt.

    Lot's of choices. :shades:
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Task force has had nibbles on Saturn

    Foreign makers see ready-made 400-store network


    March 23, 2009 - 12:01 am ET

    General Motors' proposed spinoff of Saturn has grabbed the attention of foreign manufacturers, which see it as a chance to sell vehicles in the United States.

    Consultant Steve Girsky, who heads a task force studying the spinoff, said foreign automakers have made informal inquiries to the task force. He declined to name them.

    Girsky said buying Saturn would give an importer a ready-made network of 400 Saturn dealers.

    ...He said the spinoff could count on Saturn's current vehicle lineup through the 2012 model year. Ideally, he said, the new company would bring in product from GM or other carmakers before that time. The vehicles would be sold under the Saturn name.


    http://www.autonews.com/article/20090323/ANA03/903230340/-1
    (registration link)

    So exactly what us prescient types posting at Edmunds thought would happen is in fact happening: the stand-alone Saturn dealer network is proving to be an enticement for foreign carmakers who would like to get a jump-start on selling their cars in America.

    I bet at least some if not most are Chinese companies. I just bet. And the writer speculates that they would be sold as Saturns after 2012 if not sooner.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    CHERY SATURN has a nice ring to it. Rocky could sell them. Maybe get a free trip to China and learn a bit about the REAL World he has missed out on. If GM could shed their US holdings they could probably make some serious money. I don't see that happening with the mess they have created here.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I wonder what price they are putting on it. Will GM high-ball potential bidders and kill the deal like it has so many times, or will the task force ensure that if there's a deal to be made it will be made?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    I wonder what price they are putting on it. Will GM high-ball potential bidders and kill the deal like it has so many times, or will the task force ensure that if there's a deal to be made it will be made?

    As long as Mama Washington is giving them money, they've got no reason to sell at anything less than a ridiculous high-ball offer. Which is why they haven't sold Hummer yet. I offered them $20 for the franchise, after all. :shades:
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    No, there's a task force in charge of deciding who gets what for how much, or at least making strong recommendations which could result in "no more bailout money for you!" if GM doesn't follow them.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    that Camaros have been rolling off the line since March 16th. Now comes word that the model line is being trimmed back:

    GM shelves Camaro convertible, Z28

    General Motors has delayed indefinitely the Chevrolet Camaro convertible and Z28 high-performance variant to save cash, sources say.

    GM also has tabled plans to add a four-cylinder engine version of the Camaro. GM is starting to ship the Camaro to dealers this week.

    Insiders say executives hope to restore the convertible to GM's product plan. GM originally had wanted to launch a convertible in 2010 and bring out the Z28 soon afterward.


    http://www.autoweek.com/article/20090323/CARNEWS/903239993

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Seems like it's been a while since 62vette has posted. I'd be tired of defending the indefensible if I were him too.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    A little over a month....perhaps after 3/31 he'll be back!

    Regards,
    OW
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    There really isn't much left to spin anymore :sick:

    Shame too, he was very civilized and very calm in his debates, I thought for sure someone would push the boiling point and much more colorful replies would ensue :P But no, he keeps his cool very well and doesn't make it personal :shades:
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    he realized that Ford all along built a better product and was in a better position to weather this economic downturn and jumped ship and now resides under the the handle "67Stangfb" :blush:

    J/K
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    ROTFLMAO!!

    Regards,
    OW
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Shame too, he was very civilized and very calm in his debates, I thought for sure someone would push the boiling point and much more colorful replies would ensue But no, he keeps his cool very well and doesn't make it personal

    I miss '62, too. Hope he's ok. He added a lot to the discussion and was always very constructive and civil.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    In spite of poor housekeeping in the Corvette plant, this is a beautiful car... If my wife would let me I would keep it in one of the 3 slots in our garage for Sunday drives.

    image
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    I agree, it is hard to disrespect the fabled Chevrolet Corvette. Man, you could sure get to the grocery store fast in one of them, eh? And it is a nice-looking body design.

    I prefer my compact 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS' bodystyle more, but, if one felt like they needed an all-out American raceboy car this one would be a good one. But, what I would do if I had the OK to spend $100,000 on a vehicle, I would seriously consider the new all-electric powertrain Tesla sedan, for about the same cash outlay.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    employees will be "ex"s as of next Wednesday, in exchange for the sum of $20K + a $25K car voucher for any GM model.

    Is it enough buyouts? They have about 92,000 employees, so that's less than 10%. I don't think it is enough.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    92K? What happened to the millions who would be unemployed if GM went under? Would 92 thousand people be enough to throw our Country into a third world status? Economic Depression/total collapse of the economic system? Mass rioting, violence outbreak, drug outbreak, mass hysteria, Dogs and Cats LIVING together... etc.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    In a nutshell, Obama needs to walk the talk.

    Obama stressed that the industry must be preserved, not only symbolically but because of the large number of jobs connected to the companies and suppliers. Obama said his job was to protect U.S. taxpayers and he wouldn't spend federal dollars on "a model that doesn't work."

    "A lot of it's going to depend on their willingness to make some pretty drastic changes. And some of those are still going to be painful," he said.


    Sinking billions after billions doesn't cut it. Set a price and make it the last straw.

    Period. The end.

    Regards,
    OW
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    The number was 3 million if GM, Chrysler, AND Ford went under. As such it was a red herring, since it was always extremely unlikely that all 3 would fail outright, let alone fail in the same year.

    But yes, GM was at 92,000 employees prior to the latest buyouts, of which about 69,000 were line workers. These are the employees in the U.S., not all global employees, as far as I know.

    In other news, it appears that the Cadillac brand will collapse in Europe, not a huge loss as they only sold a few thousand cars there for all of 2008.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Your beloved GM forecast fail again, as usual. Here's a glimpse for expected March sales.

    SANTA MONICA, Calif. -- March car sales to be reported April 1 by manufacturers look a lot like February car sales, and that's not a good thing since March traditionally marks the kick off of the busy spring selling season.

    "If sales continue at this pace all year, we're looking at a Seasonally Adjusted Annual Rate of only 8.9 million vehicles sold, which is slightly more than half of 2007 sales," said Edmunds.com CEO Jeremy Anwyl.

    Industry vehicle sales, both fleet and retail, are expected to come in at 774,000 units in March, according to a forecast by Edmunds.com, parent of AutoObserver.com. That's a 42.7 percent decrease from March 2008. And while March sales are up 12.7 percent from February, that's barely over half the normal hike between the two months.


    Obama better look hard at the bleeding before approving the next tranch. I'll bet this NEVER gets paid back under any circumstances. Quite a dangerous mine field politically.

    Again, the argument to save this industry flys in the face of millions of jobless people who have not been BAILED OUT! :mad:

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    If anyone thought the requirements for these deals were going to be met, they live in a different Universe!

    GM and Chrysler have received $17.4 billion in loans and have sought another $21.6 billion. They won't meet the March 31 deadline for winning final concessions necessary to reducing their debt.

    Under terms of the government loans, they are to reduce the amount of debt by two-thirds and cut at least in half the cash payments due to a UAW-overseen health care trust fund that takes over hourly retiree health care next year. The UAW must also agree to "competitive" wage and benefits as foreign automakers.

    Obama's task force will unveil some initial thoughts on the viability of GM and Chrysler and set a timetable for winning concessions from bondholders, debt holders and the UAW. Michigan members of Congress said the administration team is likely to add new conditions to a promise of additional aid.

    GM has made a new offer to its bondholders, but has no deal yet.

    CNBC reported that GM was offering bondholders for every $1 in bonds: 8 cents in cash, 16 cents in new unsecured debt and new stock in GM.


    The bondholders will be long gone before they turn a profit! And the job losses will be massive despite the bailout. My guess is this will cost more...but what do I know?? I'm just the 8 Trillion Dollar Gorilla on these forums! ;)

    Regards,
    OW
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,924
    GM stands for everything that is wrong with America.
    Chrysler stands for everything that is fraudulent and corrupt with America.

    It is time we BURN THEM AT THE STAKE.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    If anyone thought the requirements for these deals were going to be met, they live in a different Universe!

    Did you actually think the fear of corporate failure or bankruptcy would cause battleship GM to turn on a dime? :confuse: :P
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    On a dime?? No. $125B...yes.

    I just don't delude myself that the government can do a better job than C11. The fact that Phony Deadlines were erected to show a false hard-line requirement that would be met, or else, remains a complete joke. We are gonna pay one way or another. The fact is the Team, GM Chrysler or anyone does not know the difference in costs and results between the 2 options. I would bet all of the bad CDS notes that C11 will be the best way to get to a new and improved industry. The new Auto Team can politic all it wants but these firms must be closed as we know them now. There is no other way. New companies must be structured with the old assets that will give the new firms the best opportunities for success.

    image

    Regards,
    OW
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    Wagoner will be stepping down immediately.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

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