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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    As per CnnMoney,GM has $172 Billion in debt.That is ridiculous.How can they make it up especially with their crappy cars?

    That's the old GM. The new GM just has what, $30 billion in (new) government debt?
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I feel for you. The GM of Old is DEAD...good riddance....but it remains to be seen if they can make great cars again.

    Regards,
    OW
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Yeah, look on the bright side of things! Let's just hope they do some serious housecleaning a get rid of all the dead and petrified wood, both labor and management. I'm really hoping for a glorious rebirth of GM!!! I don't care if it's a much smaller company - just as long as they can build some really exquisite Cadillacs and Buicks for me! :shades:
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    Even the "New" GM has a debt of $30 billion..Man,lets see how fast they increase it exponentially!!And then we will get a "Newer" GM ,again! :cry:
    damn,trust history to repeat itself. :shades:
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Let's just hope they do some serious housecleaning a get rid of all the dead and petrified wood,

    I thought you wanted to keep Buick?

    Sorry, you left yourself wide open for that one. :shades:
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Ditto. We agree the past is gone but not forgot...don't want to make the same mistakes again.

    Regards,
    OW
  • colloquorcolloquor Member Posts: 482
    Lemko - I'm sure the DTS is a fine car, but if GM can only produce great cars with the price point of the DTS, it's all over for GM. MB and BMW make great cars too, but a substantial number of the car buying public can't afford them either. If GM can produce quality cars as Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and, as of late, Hyundai, and Ford for reasonable MSRPs for the masses, then they'll have a chance of survival. If not, they're dead in the long run.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Actually, BO is planning on pumping another 30 billion On Top of the 20 billion they've already been dished out :sick:

    It only re-enforces my wishes to see Ford absolutely thrive off of GM's situation, seeing that they are at a severe economic disadvantage now that the government has pumped so much money into GM (and Chrysler) while Ford has managed to weather the same conditions with no aid. They deserve to be on top, while those arrogant, ignorant slobs at their cross-town rival get knocked down a few rungs where they belong :blush:
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Heh, that was $20 billion to the old GM. There's a new balance sheet today. :shades:

    GM wasn't the only one ... sort of.

    Saturn Files Separate Bankruptcy; Loses Lawsuit to NJ Dealer (AutoObserver)
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    It seems Ford also may end up in BK unless sales improve to 10.5/11 million.If sales are slow this year and in 2010 ,then Ford will be in BK.
    Really,the Det3 are paying for their follies.But I hope Ford survives.They are putting some decent cars out there..Need some competition to Jap3 and Hyun/Kia.. Customer is the ultimate winner as automakers strive to improve quality and performance!!
  • mcribbmcribb Member Posts: 20
    I totally agree with you. I mean that they are pretty good cars but they do not drive like a new one. I know my dad and grandparents had these same cars. Well, I guess they are great if you are old and ready for the grave. :blush::)
  • mcribbmcribb Member Posts: 20
    I thought it was around 80 billion and now it is 172 billion. So, GM was telling a lie the whole time.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    I wouldn't say so...Ford has managed to raise such a huge amount of money from their recent stock offering that they actually are "bailing out" Visteon, one of their suppliers (they're proving the debtor-in-possession financing for Visteon's Ch11 bankruptcy). They might not need 10.5 million sales at all.

    They've probably given themselves until 2011 or 2012 the way things are going. But their sales are going to go up, being the only American car company not in bankruptcy, and the only American car company not sucking taxpayer blood to survive. That's scored them an incredible amount of goodwill, and many of the "Only Buy American!" buyers not named Lemko are prepared to go to Ford and nowhere else. :shades:
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,681
    I'd imagine in the Brougham you could treat a Prius like a speed bump;)

    I work for NASA, so inevitably we have a lot of techno-nerd and gadget freaks, so hybrids are all over the place here. Almost like clockwork, if I drive one of my big old mastodons to work, like one of my '79 New Yorkers or '76 LeMans, someone will park a Prius or two around it, like they're trying to make some kind of environmental statement. But if I drive my 2000 Intrepid, it never happens. And ditto my '85 Silverado, although it can guzzle with the best (worst) of them. But I guess pickups are considered an honest "working man's ride", so maybe they're not such an evil statement?

    I know I shouldn't be giving into this, but lately, if I'm in one of those old brutes, and I see someone walking across the parking lot giving me a dirty look, I'll gun the engine a bit.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    >BK unless sales improve to 10.5/11 million.If sales are slow this year and in 2010 ,then Ford will be in BK

    I recently posted a link that Ford was still in potential trouble. I was soundly corrected by someone that Ford had sold $6 billion in stock or something like that and had this or that and definitely were out of trouble, and further that the link I'd posted was a couple of months old.

    Sounds like actually they aren't out-of-the-woods.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    >in one of those old brutes, and I see someone walking across the parking lot giving me a dirty look

    Nothing like those Prius lovers for having smug alerts.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Oh they aren't out of the woods. heck, in this economy, nothing is out of the woods. But Ford is actually increasing production this year (10% Q3 this year over Q3 last year), which says they're expecting to get additional business from somewhere. And they wouldn't be planning that increase if they weren't real sure, given the still shaky financial climate.

    And yeah, they did just sell $6 billion in stock. As in newly issued stock. Typically, that dilutes existing stock, but Ford's stock is currently over $5, and was at $2 earlier this year. In this economy, that's a big-deal indicator.
  • shoulderboardsshoulderboards Member Posts: 6
    When GM released the Lucerne, they proclaimed it to be a replacement for both the LaSabre as well as the more upscale Park Avenue. While LeSabre owners have embraced the Lucerne quite well, many former and current Park Avenue owners feel the Lucerne does not bring the level of prestige and luxury to that of their Park Avenues. Since GM has said they believe Buick can be a "core brand" in their recovery, they need to reverse their decision to abandon a Zeta-based rear wheel drive flagship sedan. A RWD Park Avenue or whatever it might be called would fill a glaring gap between Chevrolet and Cadillac price point models, and provide real competition for the upscale imports such as Acura, Lexus, etc.
  • jlinfullerjlinfuller Member Posts: 1
    The GM recent status was a buildup over many years from the time of WWII when wages and prices were strictly controlled by the federal government. In lieu of additional wages, the car manufacturers agreed over time to absolutely ridiculous benefit packages plus the government promoted the union positions at each contract negotiation. Now they are all paying the price.

    I have owned a GMC Yukon and currently drive a Chevy Suburban. The Suburban has less stowage space, not counting the space in back of the second seat row, than the Yukon. The front seat console has so much wasted space where the Yukon only had carpet over the hump. What would it cost to put hinged doors on the sides of that console to give owners access to that space. As it is, the fire extinguisher, first aid kit, reflector triangles, and other seldom used stuff that used to fit on the carpeted hump can't get in the console OR under the seats since they reengineered under the seats with cable, etc. for the seat mechanisms that used to run along the sides of the seat mounts now run across the under seat openings. Lovely design, GM.

    Same with the back seats. Little storage due to narrowing the seat mounts giving less storage width underneath the seats. I can understand the right-hand back seat that has to tip to allow access to the third row but what about under the other two seats?

    Superior use of space provides more utilization. The space is not there to be filled up with cables and wires.

    Neither vehicle was available with a common rail diesel engine. I get 22 mph on the road but could have been getting 40 or more mph with the diesel and a 7-speed transmission.

    If I were GM, I would have more GM owners involved in new car design as focus groups. What does it cost to get the design right?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You see glorious Buicks, Cadillacs, and Chevrolets just like they were back in the 1950s and 1960s!

    When I think of the 1950s & 60s it is Pontiac and Olds to a lessor degree. Buicks were old man cars with the worst auto transmission EVER built the Dynaflop. Pontiac, Olds and Caddy used the superior Hydramatic. So GM has some heritage. Not much lately to sell them to me.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I usually reply "I love it, because it means I'm having fun with my kids" and that usually shuts them up.

    It is hard for a techno geek stuck driving a hybrid to have any fun. A big deal is watching Al Gore preaching to the GW Cult on PBS TV. I have spent my fair share of gas speeding across Lake Havasu AZ in my 22 foot Nordic with a 454 Chevy with jet drive. A good day was about 60 gallons of high test. Thankfully we did not have all the ethanol crap back then to mess up our fuel. There is more to life than hypermiling in a stinking Prius. Those kids will be grown soon. Spend time with them while you can. I sold my boat after they were grown.
  • cadillacmikecadillacmike Member Posts: 543
    Most Japanese and euro sedans have the same issue as the cobalt, that is the beltline rises as it goes to the rear thus maaking for a big rear ended car. The goal was to increase trunk volume because they basically truncated the rear for length.

    Larger sedans are not as bad, but even my wife's CTS does have the "rising beltline" syndrome. Interestingly, my el Dorado does not.

    So it isn't just the Cobalt.
  • cadillacmikecadillacmike Member Posts: 543
    You soften it up and use it as toilet paper! :P

    Common stock value is Zero and there will be no hope of any future recovery since 100% of the equity in the "new" GM will be made up of the govt, the bondholders and the pension fund / UAW (don't know the split up of the last 3), with Govt having 60% ownership.
  • cadillacmikecadillacmike Member Posts: 543
    The market had already priced in GM's impending bankruptcy.
  • cadillacmikecadillacmike Member Posts: 543
    I get amused by the looks of people when I fill my boat and Fleetwood at the same time.. The Fleetwood is long enough that i can fill it from one pump and the boat from another! ;)

    And a Fleetwood is a much better tow vehicle and all around vehicle than any ford excess. :P
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Especially that beige New Yorker! That one sounds like it has an old Hemi in it though it really just has a 360. Oh, if I had a bunch of geeks parking Priuses around my car, I'd be sure to drive the Brougham every day!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Shoot, I'd buy a RWD Park Avenue in a New York second!!!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,681
    I think the Lucerne is a better built car, with an interior that's better-assembled, than both the LeSabre and Park Ave. But you're right, somehow, the car seems to lack the presence and prestige factor that the Park Ave had.

    Oldsmobile did a similar thing back in 2001 with the 2nd-gen Aurora. It tried to fill the shoes of both the old 88 and the first-gen Aurora, and didn't do such a hot job. Of course, launching the car right around the time that GM announced the impending demise of Oldsmobile didn't help things!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    So it isn't just the Cobalt.

    Not at all. I think the Japanese and Korean car makers started that "Stink Bug" look and it caught on. I would not drive any of them as seeing out the back is a real pain.

    I personally liked the looks of the series of Cadillac that ended about 1996. The before and after Caddies are not attractive to me. The only Cadillac I seriously considered is the pre 2007 Escalade.

    I would not touch a GM product now with a 10 foot pole. I think with the dealer situation it would be nothing but a hassle.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Actually, the seceond generation Aurora was supposed to be an 88 replacement called the Antares and the Aurora was supposed to be a different car. I drove a second-gen Aurora and it had a super-cool airplane cockpit-like instrument panel.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I had a 1994 Cadillac DeVille. I look back on pictures of that car and it really was an attractive car - especially in striking Carmine Red!!! Mine only had a 4.9 V-8 rated at a mere 200 hp, but it was hardly a slouch! The ride was so smooth, if you didn't watch it, you'd be cruising at 100 mph easy!
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Maybe we should change the title of the thread to "Fond memories of the GM gone by..." :shades:

    Unfortunately, what we REALLY need is a "GM Screwups" thread....so GM can learn where they screwed up, and the New GM can swear to do no such thing (and then probably do it anyway, but at least we tried).

    For starters, they can figure out how to make a decent hatchback so Cobalts don't look like stinkbugs just so they have a trunk that will hold more than one golf bag. ;) Most people in most countries use hatches precisely to AVOID the whole problem with the tall trunk glued on the back blocking the view.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Somehow, I don't see many Cobalt owners as golfers anyway. Hatchbacks might be popular in other parts of the world, but in the U.S., "hatchback" means cheap! I don't see very many Toyota, Nissan, Honda, and VW hatchbacks either. Maybe they're sold in other parts of the globe, but they're unpopular here.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Yeah, I guess that's why I see so many Rabbits, Fits, Mazda3s, Focus hatches, Calibers, Matrixes, Yaris hatches, SX4 hatches, HHRs (which are hatches, pretty much). Not to mention small SUVs like Escape, Equinox, Torrent, Rogue, CR-V, all of which are really just hatches with raised suspension...
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Hatchbacks might be popular in other parts of the world, but in the U.S., "hatchback" means cheap! I don't see very many Toyota, Nissan, Honda, and VW hatchbacks either. Maybe they're sold in other parts of the globe, but they're unpopular here.

    DIdn't previous gen Malibu offer a hatchback? Hatchbacks are very sensible and can be stylish too.

    I had a VW Scirrocco that was hatch back and was able to get good gas mileage, have sporty handling "and" haul stuff such as a 40 gallon water heater and 7 ft high, 30 inch wide bookcase. I say, GM should consider bringing back hatchbacks. Many people can do very well having a hatchback rather than a larger crossover, suv or station wagon.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Heard recently on news broadcast that GM paying idle workers, and presumably any idled engineers and management. Seems like this is taxpayer supported jobs bank.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    So much for ever being profitable. GM will never learn, even with their new captain. Jobs bank and legacy was the demise of GM. Will it be the demise of the USA?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Hummer Brand Finds Buyer, Says General Motors (AutoObserver)

    The AP is reporting that GM says it has 16 potential buyers for Saturn
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    SO how many Saturns does that leave for sale? :shades:

    Will the new owner of Hummer be saddled with a UAW contract in the Louisiana factory?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    lol, good one.

    My guess is that the potential buyer of HUMMER is in side negotiations with the UAW.

    From a Reuters story last September:

    "In case of a sale, Gettelfinger also stressed the importance of recognizing the union.

    "GM is not going to sell that product to anybody if they are going to manufacture it here (and) they are not going to recognize the UAW," he said. "We are not going to stand for that and they know it."

    UAW: Hummer, Viper sales conditional

    Maybe American Axle will buy it?
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    >GM is not going to sell that product to anybody if they are going to manufacture it here (and) they are not going to recognize the UAW," he said. "We are not going to stand for that and they know it."

    There must be an agreement to trade in some Hummers as part of the deal. I just saw 6 in a row; maybe BO has helped the deal by agreeing to trade in a lot of government-owned Hummers. These were lovely desert sand color driven by little green men in camouflage.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    From then on, my choices will be used GM cars, 2009 and earlier.

    Lemko - you really must consider other choices.....hanging on to GM like a dog to a t-bone is irrational, if at some point, they are just gone...... This attitude is starting to look like some sort of dysfunction......not just a strong preference. :sick:
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The NY Times is reporting that the Sichuan Tengzhong Heavy Industrial Machinery Company Ltd., is buying HUMMER.

    Chinese Company Said to Be Buyer of Hummer

    I suppose if they off-shore production of them and then we impose the pickup tariff on them, we'll suffer Sichuan Chicken Tax complaints. Gives one heartburn eh? :shades:
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I know I shouldn't be giving into this, but lately, if I'm in one of those old brutes, and I see someone walking across the parking lot giving me a dirty look, I'll gun the engine a bit.

    Good for you, Andre!!! :P
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I still like the looks of the second generation Aurora, and would have gladly driven one had I been in the market at the time they were new. They were really nice inside, outside and under the hood with the "shortstar" engine. The car was great, but was handicapped by bad timing, introduction into a failing brand by a company adrift on the ocean of denial...... Probably should have been a Cadillac model.
  • apostropheapostrophe Member Posts: 1
    To the GM retirees who built my 1984 Camaro, and the dealership staff who laughed at me when I complained about being towed back to the dealer three times in it's first three months.

    I wanted to take the time to thank you for teaching me such a valuable lesson so early in my life. If it wasn't for your complete apathy towards your work and outright hostility towards your customers, I might have continued buying your products for decades. Imagine - I might have bought a new GM vehicle every three years or so! Or worse - I could have told HUNDREDS OF OTHER PEOPLE to buy one! Oh, the humanity.

    I also wish to voice my concern about the inexorable and total extinction of GM and it's few remaining dealerships. Can anybody tell me which car company will step in to screw our kids out of their hard earned money? Has anybody really thought this through? :cry:

    P.S. - I love my brand new Nissan! I think I'll buy another!
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    "How GM Lost Its Way" - Timid management and coddled workers couldn't compete with Toyota.

    Locate it on the web - it is an excellent article and points out the effects of the union and the management which got us here today.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    Just read it. Amazing! A union with a gang-like mentality and a management with no backbone to stand up to them.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    I remember c. 2001 the predecessor to this thread was called, I think, "The Return of GM's Might..."

    It's been a long, hard fall, and one that really started in the early 70s, if not before. The two used GM cars I owned were ok, I guess, but even with major GM rebates on a gm credit card, I could never get myself pull the trigger on a new one. Bought Hondas instead, and I'm glad. Toyota, Honda, and Ford may be the new big three. Or maybe there will be a big six if you add the smaller GM, Nissan, and Hyundia/Kia to the mix....
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    A union with a gang-like mentality and a management with no backbone to stand up to them.

    As I always suspected. And I guess that about sums it up.
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