GM News, New Models and Market Share

xrunner2 · June 2009

I suppose if they off-shore production of them and then we impose the pickup tariff on them, we'll suffer Sichuan Chicken Tax complaints. Gives one heartburn eh?

I won't complain. Schezwan Chicken is one of my favorites.

Lots of people complain about China, but almost everybody, everybody loves Chinese food.

xrunner2 · June 2009

According to July Consumer Reports.

Buick Enclave rated 4th of 14 luxury and midsized suvs. Acura MDX is first.

Chevy Traverse and GMC Acadia and Saturn Outlook rated 3,4,5 of 18 midsized 3-row suvs.

And, there have been folks on this board that have said that Consumer Reports is biased against GM.

dave8697 · June 2009

A chinese group has bought Hummer. The new coal plant a week country couldn't possibly worry about the gas mileage. The pollution. Or if they don't come in green.

Somebody has money to spend. Remember the Chinese have longer term goals than Americans. They pick up our industries for pennies on the dollar during downturns. Hmmmm...2% on a T-bill or gamble with Hummer for a 50 year return in 3 years when the downturn ends?

circlew · June 2009

Well, my wife wanted an Enclave but I told her she was too young! JK, actually, she is afraid of the dependability as she almost got killed in her Yukon Denali when the MAP sensor was intermittently failing, stalling the engine at low idle, causing steering and braking to fail!! She wants a Highlander now! :lemon:

Oh well, can we blame her??

Regards,
OW

dave8697 · June 2009

My 1984 Camaro was bought new and also had to be towed back to the dealer. Oil leaked past the rear seal and stuck the clutch plate to the pressure plate. I just drove my motorcycle or my 200,000+ mile Olds to work that day. I had a total of 3 warranty visits with the car and had to put $100 into it before I turned over the odo.

Hundreds of people told me it was known for it's poor quality. I only got back 27% of what I paid for it after 15 years and 167,000 miles. Everything still worked, even the a/c and it had one little door ding. The money I sold it for now resides in my son's '98 Mustang, along with $1500 more. The Camaro had a nicer interior, much better seats, was much quieter and smoother riding, and the BSM rerally protected it in parking lots. The Camaro paint looked new after 15 years. The Mustang always sat outside so no comparison and maybe 30 dings. At about 20 yrs old, a race car builder bought the V6 camaro from the guy who bought it from me. Now they come with triple the HP in V6 trim and quadruple the HP in V8 trim.

bpizzuti · June 2009

They're the same vehicle, and should collectively be referred to as #3. GM has always tried to get more top-whatever vehicles than any other manufacturer simply by having a larger sheer number of models than any other manufacturers.

Fire enough arrows at enough rabbits, and you eventually kill Elvis, or something like that.

lemko · June 2009

No one ever really said that. What GM president Charles Irwin Wilson did say in 1953 when a Senate panel considering his nomination to be Secretary of Defense asked him if he would be able to make a government decision contrary to the companys interest, was that he couldnt imagine such a situation because:

For years I thought what was good for the country was good for General Motors and vice versa.

Wilsons observation, made when GM was the largest private employer in the world, was never truer than Monday when the company declared bankruptcy and agreed to close plants that employ more than 20,000, shutter 40 percent of its 6,000 dealerships and agree to a (hopefully brief) period of government control in order to restructure debts that are more than double its assets.

From its beginnings in 1908, the companies fortunes have perfectly mirrored the nations, through the Great Depression, the post-war boom and now the post-millennium gloom.

What better symbolizes the current predicament of our economy  and many of our businesses and households -- than super-sized, over-leveraged GM, a company once so sure of it superiority over off-shore competitors that can now barely hold onto 20 percent of the domestic market?

The coming months will be painful as GM sheds jobs, plants, dealerships and models in an attempt to emerge leaner, more competitive and more innovative.

Again, the company will reflect what many American individuals, families and businesses are going through: retrenching, reprioritizing, reexamining.

At the end of the day, it wont be your fathers General Motors, or your fathers America.

One hopes the company and the country will be more grounded, more forward-looking and better prepared to prosper in a changing world in which America and GM will remain key and indispensible players.

carnaught · June 2009

One hopes the company and the country will be more grounded, more forward-looking and better prepared to prosper in a changing world in which America and GM will remain key and indispensible players.

Yeah, with cars imported from China, I fear.

deltheking · June 2009

These are ratings based on performance,not reliability.They rate poor on reliability.None of them is recommended.GM cars are better than prove but the competition has improved too and none of GM`s cars are class leaders except the Corvette.They are low down the pack.

senior5 · June 2009

Just remember what the unions did to the textile industry, garment industry and the television manufacturing industries in this country. We invented television and now there is not a single TV set manufactured in America. GM can and does make good cars. They just can't make them and make a profit with a UAW work force. - - and neither can the Chinese!

jae5 · June 2009

Despite that he never made the statement in those exact terms, the end of the sentence "and vice versa" clearly shows 'Ol Foot in the Mouth believed it, like baseball, apple pie, Chevrolet. And it was this type of thinking, arrogant at times, ignorant at others, that was rampant throughout GM that brought them to this point - not putting him down but 62vette was somewhat proof of that.

What is kind of ironic is that the Hummer division, which stands (or should I say stood) for American strength, toughness and robustness, is being bought by the Chinese. Guess it's better than just having them produce knock-offs. Wonder how AM General feels about it. :confuse:

bpizzuti · June 2009

GM can and does make good cars. They just can't make them and make a profit with a UAW work force.

Well, if they want to continue operating, they'd better figure out how. Not like it can't be done you know.

lemko · June 2009

Uh, the unions didn't ruin the television manufacturing industry. They were ruined by foreign manufacturers dumping their products below cost in the U.S. to gain a foothold then total domination of the market. New Jersey and Philadelphia used to be home to great appliance and electronics manufacturers - DuMont was in New Jersey as was RCA in Camden, NJ. Philco and General Electric had huge plants in Philadelphia.

Emerson Electric used to have a huge plant in East St. Louis, IL. Take a look at East St. Louis these days and you'll get a good look at what's in store for the rest of America.

lemko · June 2009

I understand the Hummer has become obsolete as a military application. I believe AM General is already developing the Hummer's successor.

andre1969 · June 2009

Archie Bunker said it. :P It was in an argument with Meathead about Ralph Nader and big business. Mike said something like "Oh, so I supposed what's good for GM is good for America?!" and Archie replied "You're damn right what's good for GM is good for America. And Ralph Nader ain't no good for GM!"

andre1969 · June 2009

Nothing like those Prius lovers for having smug alerts.

Yeah, tell me about it. Another Prius recently showed up in the parking lot with the vanity plate "GASSAVR" or something like that! The lady that owns it was bragging about how it can get 80 mpg, although I don't see how that's possible. Although she lives closer to work than I do, which I didn't think was possible! I'm about 3.5 miles away, and I think she's only around 2.5. So if she's that close, maybe it's possible that she's running almost pure electric, and the gas engine is barely coming on?

What I'm suspecting is really happening though, is that her car has a trip computer that keeps track of mpg, and if you put it on the instantaneous setting, you'll get some really high readings. Heck, I had an '88 LeBaron that would register 99 mpg in the right conditions!

Oh, this morning I saw a new Honda Insight in the parking lot. I didn't think those things were even out yet! But if it's hi-tech, leave it to one of the techno-nerds around here to be one of the first to buy it.

If the Chevy Volt ever makes it into production, I'm sure I'll see a ton of them around here. I know the Volt takes a lot of flak for not being all that practical and too expensive, but I'll give it this much...I think it's pretty attractive. The Prius is just too goofy-looking for my tastes, and the 3rd-gen does nothing to fix that, IMO. I do think the new Insight is fairly attractive, though.

gagrice · June 2009

There is a BIG difference between the HI built mainly for the military and Ahnold, and the foo foo Hummers built for GM on their PU truck and SUV frames. The H2 and H3 are just SUVs for people that want to be different. Sort of like the goofy attempt by Toyota with the stupid FJ Cruiser that is probably history. The Chinese will build the Hummers and sell them back to the few that want them here. I guarantee they will make a profit. The country would have been better off if GM had sold all their brands to companies that were not tied to such horrible contracts with labor and the dealers.

gagrice · June 2009

So if she's that close, maybe it's possible that she's running almost pure electric, and the gas engine is barely coming on?

On that short of a drive she is lucky to get 40 MPG. The engine starts right away to heat up the Cat Convertor. The stealth mode is good for maybe a mile after the car is warmed up.

What is the chances for the Volt ever getting into production? With most of the cost going to Korea it will be tied up in debate for a long time. I don't think Wagoner ever planned to do more than final assembly here by UAW labor. By the time Obama motors is done with it the Volt will be $50k.

xrunner2 · June 2009

Uh, the unions didn't ruin the television manufacturing industry. They were ruined by foreign manufacturers dumping their products below cost in the U.S. to gain a foothold then total domination of the market.

Sounds like revisionist history. No. American brands failed because Japanese (foreign) were more reliable. Sony Trintron probably was the first Japanese company/model to wake up Americans to better quality tv.

One example of a failed brand was Motorola TV. Recall that these sets were inferior in quality to Japanese brand. A Japanese tv company bought a Motorola tv factory in a suburb of Chicago, changed the name and the processes and had very successful sales for many years.

Many Americans who were previously GM buyers discovered the superior quality and reliability of Japanese brands such as Honda and Toyota in the early 80's. GM took way too long to change its methods and processes to finally only recently come close to matching the best of the Japanese.

andre1969 · June 2009

Oh yeah, I forgot about that...having to warm up the catastrophic converters and such. As for me, I'm about 3.5 miles from work, but I'll take back roads sometimes just to give the cars more of a run. And also because sometimes it's more fun driving around aimlessly than it is being at work. :P Today I stretched that commute out to around 9 miles. Sure, it wastes fuel, but it's probably better for the cars to do that every once in awhile.

stever · June 2009

A guy from Idaho/Utah invented TV but got run rough shod by RCA (link).

You can have the best product in the world but you better have good marketing, good legal, and lots of other intangibles have to fall into place for your company or idea to be a sucess. Maybe some luck and timing.

GM is 101 years old, assuming we can still lump New GM in with Old GM. Maybe the New GM will be lean enough to react faster to the market.

If you need to get your BP moving this morning, may I suggest Michael Moore? (Inside Line - "The Only Way To Save GM Is To Kill GM").

cadillacmike · June 2009

CR IS biased against GM and the US makers in general. I remember when they slammed the Chevy Cavalier for having unpainted grey plastic bumbers on SOME early 90s models, yet had nothig but praise for toyotas with even worse black unpainted bumbers that just started to dry rot within weeks.

cadillacmike · June 2009

Corvette is a class of one. in a class of one it's hard not to be the leader

anythngbutgm · June 2009

C&D put the Vette at the bottom of the rankings in a latest comparo with the Boxster S, new Z4 and Audi TTS...

The Vette to me has always been in a class of its own because nobody else bothers to compete with it using the same formula (big, gruff V8 engine, large body, simple, basic features). Then there is the whole Corvette "image" thing which is also in a class of its own :P

dieselone · June 2009

Yeah, while a part of me finds a Corvette appealing, I don't desire one. I'd much rather have a z4 or Boxter as I appreciate the refinement they offer.

My BIL has an '88 vette that he's owned since the early 90's when he bought in his early 20's. It has about 40k on it and as most GM vehicles of that vintage it's pretty much garbage. Rattles, rattles, rattles, and horribly cheesy looking interior. I don't think anything was properly screwed together, per mile, I don't know how anything could be more expensive per mile, my BIL has put thousands into it keeping it running, which is sad as he takes immaculate car of it, only driven on the nicest of days. Apparently he must see through all of the things that would drive me nuts because he's getting ready to buy a new one.

bpizzuti · June 2009

Is that why CR started slamming Toyotas, made Focus #1 for a while,and is praising the Fusion to the skies? And also liked the Malibu, and Traverse?

dieselone · June 2009

Is that why CR started slamming Toyotas, made Focus #1 for a while,and is praising the Fusion to the skies? And also liked the Malibu, and Traverse?

Exactly. While I don't always agree with CU, over the year's I agree more than disagree regarding their reports on vehicles I've owned.

andre1969 · June 2009

IIRC, even when the '04 Malibu came out, CR had some good things to say about it. One aspect they gave high praise to was the 3.5 V-6, which gave better fuel economy than the 4-cyl, and in their testing, compared favorably to the 4-cyl Camry/Accord/et al. This, despite it being pushrod and having the 4-speed automatic.

anythngbutgm · June 2009

Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel. I respect the Vette and would probably enjoy driving one, but it's just too big and unrefined for my tastes. To me, the only real "Direct" competitor to it was the Viper, and between the Vette and the Viper, I'd take the Dodge :shades:

But for the money, I'd rather drive a newZ4 or TTS. Different strokes I guess...

srs_49 · June 2009

CR IS biased against GM and the US makers in general

I keep hearing this from some posters and the question I have to ask is Why would they be biased? What's in it for CR/CU to unfairly bash GM and other US auto makers?

In many cases, those that claim a CR bias is usually because CR diss's one of the poster's favorite products, be it an automobile, TV set, computer, cell phone, roll of toilet paper, cereal, or big-box store.

I don't always agree with their assessments, especially for products with which I have might have some experience or it's in an area in which I might claim some amount of. But, that doesn't mean they have a bias.

nvbanker · June 2009

I remember when they slammed the Chevy Cavalier for having unpainted grey plastic bumbers

Really now, you can't blame CR for being biased just because they pan the Cavalier......that car was the worst of the worst in just about every area.....since the Chevette.

lemko · June 2009

I don't even count the H2 and H3 as real Hummers. They're more like Tonka Toys for insecure adults. Let the Chinese have 'em! They're fake Hummers already!

The FJ Cruiser could've been a decent vehicle if they pretty much updated the old Land Cruiser and made it more of a Jeep Wrangler type of vehicle.

Well, GM can sell its Buick division to the upcoming Philadelphia firm called Lem-Co! :P

lemko · June 2009

I dunno. My old '80s-era Zenith console still delivers an excellent picture! Who needs HDTV?

Those early '80s Toyotas and Hondas were OK, provided they hibernated for the winter in an oil bath. Trouble is, I drive my cars all year round. Funny how many '70s and '80s domestic cars are still on the road when contemporary Japanese cars went extinct 15-20 years ago. Sorry, I don't live in the Sun Belt.

lemko · June 2009

Come to think of it, if your a person of limited means in Philadelphia, you're better off with plain gray bumpers. There are enough careless knuckleheads banging into your bumpers that the finish is cracked, scuffed, and scratched-up so bad that you'll either have to live with the scuffed-up ugly bumpers or pay about $500 a shot to constantly have them refinished.

jae5 · June 2009

Yes, the Hum-Vee replacement / successor has been in the works for quite some time (translation - years). They were starting on it when I helped design and build the interiors / interior tooling for the H1 years ago. This was when civilians started getting into them, following Arnold and the few other hollywood-types. But again, on some things the military it is not in a hurry to update something that works o.k. to them.

Never really cared for the GM Hummers though. But as someone else stated, the Chinese will make a profit on it, they'll see to that. I saw the interview yesterday and it sounds like they are looking for the west coast to provide most of the buying, with a few scattered throughout the rest of the areas (midwest, east, southeast).

I am wondering how long before we start getting the Chinese Buicks and Chevrolets.

lemko · June 2009

I'm surprised to actually see they have my DTS as a "recommended" buy. Maybe the old hippies are dying off from the excesses of their youth? The Boomers sure screwed the generations following them!

xrunner2 · June 2009

Those early '80s Toyotas and Hondas were OK, provided they hibernated for the winter in an oil bath. Trouble is, I drive my cars all year round.

Honda hibernate? Believe that is the GM Corvettes that hibernate in winter climes.

84 Honda Prelude of mine was a reliable and high quality/reliability car driven daily (including 3-4 months winter ice/snow/salt) and run to 195K miles, then sold in 98. 86 Suburban, owned roughly same time frame was very good utility wise, but lots of rattles, rust, bad paint, burned light bulbs, bad gas guage (just like old Caprice wagon) headlights burning out, etc. GM was a laggard in quality/reliability starting approx early 80's. They did not have a clue about quality.

xrunner2 · June 2009

WSJ article page D1 today by James B. Stewart

"...The myriad causes of its (GM) demise have been thorougly chronicled, but to my mind one stands out: The custodians of GM simply gave up trying to build the best cars in the world. To accomodate a host of competing interests, from shareholders and bondholders to labor, they repeatedly compromised on excellence. Once sacrificed, that reputation has proved impossible to recapture.
....
GM has made strides in quality after churning out troubled cars.
....
Can the US field a world-class auto industry? I don't see why not. .....What US companies need to recapture is an unrelenting committment to quality."

lemko · June 2009

...to revitalize the American Auto Industry:

Not a Way to Revitalize the US Auto Industry

stever · June 2009

The commentator overlooks all the tax breaks and incentives US manufacturers already get.

Check out the Memories Of The Old GM And Its Cars discussion for old car talk.

gagrice · June 2009

I think he has the picture pretty well painted. Barring state incentives or UAW concessions, it should go down just about the way he laid it out. If we had followed Jefferson's advice and let Europe have all the dirty industry we would not be in this big mess. We would not have this many people to find jobs for and feed. Plenty of food and all driving nice German road cars instead of the junk we get sold.

bpizzuti · June 2009

There would be no nice German road cars, because GM never would have appeared, the GMC truck never would have entered WWII (nor would the US) and Hitler would still be building Beetles for everyone and not allowed Bavaria to build real BMWs.

lemko · June 2009

I doubt I would be. My family would still be living in the Carpathian Mountain region of Russia and worrying about what the Tsar was up to. There would've been no industry in America to draw my grandfather away from the old country. I doubt very many others here would be on this blog if the United States would've remained an agrarian economy.

cooterbfd · June 2009

"Dynaflop"

.......uhhh wasn't it Dynaflush??? :P

cooterbfd · June 2009

"Shoot, I'd buy a RWD Park Avenue in a New York second!!! "

Hmmm. Am I reading your mind, or can you smell a G8 reincarnation? Hell they gotta do SOMETHING to sell them.

lemko · June 2009

Speaking of the G8, it was the first Pontiac I'd have seriously considering buying since the demise of the big RWD Parisienne.

cooterbfd · June 2009

"Unfortunately, what we REALLY need is a "GM Screwups" thread...."

Soooo, start one. As much as I support GM, it doesn't mean we can't have a meaningful discussion on their failings, and leave this one to the "New GM"

imidazol97 · June 2009

>the unions didn't ruin the television manufacturing industry. They were ruined by foreign manufacturers dumping their products below cost in the U.S. to gain a foothold then total domination of the market.

They did the same thing to the auto industry.

imidazol97 · June 2009

>Sort of like the goofy attempt by Toyota with the stupid FJ Cruiser that is probably history

What! The perfect Toyota has a failure?

nwng · June 2009

it's always someone else's fault.

hyundai was dumping 1st gen excel in the 80's, didn't get them anywhere because their product was not competitive.

ipod dominates the mp3 player market despite they costs 2-3 x more than your plain jane mp3 player with similar functions.

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