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Comments
But I have owned a GM vehicle with AFM (GM's version of cylinder deactivation technology). It was a 2007 Avalanche (V8). I ordered some GM accessories as part of the purchase of the vehicle, but it came before they did. One of the accessories was a custom exhaust system (mildly loud). Since I got the truck first, I was able to see the difference before and after for the exhaust. One of the unexpected things I noticed was that the V8-V4 changeover was imperceptible to me with the quiet stock exhaust. I was able to tell this because one of the DIC display modes shows the engine mode (V8 or V4). Once the factory exhaust was installed, I was able to tell fairly easily when the engine changed modes, both by sound, and to a much lesser extent, by a very slight change in feel (not a lurching as some have described with their Accords here, though).
This same issue came up on some of the forums I've visited, by other owners of GM products. Some feel the changeover strongly, while others barely notice it at all. That may mean that, evidently like these Accords, different vehicles actually feel it to a greater or lesser extent, or just that some folks are more sensitive to it than others.
But as far as the Odyssey vs. the Accord comparison goes, I'd be willing to bet that the greater mass of the vehicle (with the same engine) results in two mitigating factors as far as the VCM 'noticibility' is concerned:
1. The engine most likely doesn't operate as often or as long in 3/4 cylinder mode (does the Odyssey's version of VCM even do both the other modes?). Much like driving the Accord without the cruise set.
2. The greater mass of the van means that any lurching the engine does is overcome to a greater extent by the vehicle's inertia, effectively masking the engine's effect more than the lighter car will.
In any case, nobody seems to have experienced reliability issues with the GM system, and (Honda's engineering being what it usually is) I doubt it will be any different with your cars. It most likely will come down to whether you notice the changeover, and if you do, whether it's too bothersome to live with or not.
On second thought, there is one last avenue, Senior Mgmt. I wonder if the President etc.. know about this? I'll email them and see what happens. It has worked in the past for other issues.
Every car and driver is different. I drove 4 of the V6 models before buying one and felt nothing that was quirky. The Odessey van had a perfect Consumer Reports record for engine quality and the Hybrids as well that use the same technology. Some of the descriptions state owners feel a surge when the car goes out of ECO mode. This surge and shift as described while going out of ECO mode means you accelerated as the only time the ECO light goes off is when you it the pedal. Any car has a surge of power and down shift when you step on it. Unless the car was not properly tuned by the dealer, there was a tech notice requireing an acceleration adjustment on the earlier production cars. Teh factory now ships them properly tuned.
I think if your looking for a problem as with anything you will find it either real or imagined. Basically if your as confused as I was after reading this blogg go to the dealer drive one check the professional reviews and consumers reports and make your own judgement. As they say dont believe everything you read, I would not be surprised if some of the posts are from hondas competition.
Just an FYI - Some of the descriptions state owners feel a surge when the car goes out of ECO mode. This surge and shift as described while going out of ECO mode means you accelerated as the only time the ECO light goes off is when you hit the pedal Not true. That is the whole issue. The car does it while in CC or reg pedal at a constant speed. This has nothing to do with acceleration. I'm glad you don't feel it on yours, but according to my dealer tech, EVERY car does it.
I have thought about the letter up the corporate chain possibility as well, but my assumption is that it will get kicked back down to the same set of Case Managers who told you (and me) that it's normal so live with it or get rid of the car.
The other possibility regarding the deceptiveness of the "seamless" statement is the Federal Trade Commission and the consumer protection office of the state you live in (usually located within the attorney general's office). They can be very effective if you can get them interested in your plight.
I have a 2006 Odyssey with almost 40K miles on it. It has VCM but only the 6 to 3 to 6 cyl version. I can feel the very slight sensation/resonance when the cylinder switches over, but agree with you that the greater mass coupled with all of the other mechanical sounds mostly mitigates the sensation. It's likely more noticeable on the lighter and smaller Accord, as you stated.
VCM is another technological enhancement that represents cars doing more of the driving for us. In the name of safety or efficiency, features such as VCM, CVT, runflat technology a la Michelin's PAX, intelligent cruise control, lane departure mitigation systems, stability and traction assistance, parking assistance, etc. all combine to chip away at the "purety" of driving all by yourself. When alternatives to gasoline become a broad-based reality, we'll see more of these types of innovations and consumer reactions.
No question that lives are saved and the earth benefits in incremental ways. But some consumers will complain that the various sensations and big brother interventions are simply unnacceptable to them. It's my opinion that the isolated reactions to VCM (excluding individual mechanical defects) are just another example of that development. Rick Waggoner at GM suggests that thanks to technology, cars will eventually just drive themselves. That's actually a scary proposition.
As for acceleration while your CC is on your car accelerates to go up slight inclines and maintain the set speed. This acceleration will turn the ECO light off. In my case it is undetectable. I suspect that some of the cars where the driver feels a vibration may have defective motor mounts.
Until this problem is resolved, anyone considering a V6 should follow the advice from the posters above by performing an extended test drive to see if they can detect the problem. Perhaps those unfortunate people with the problem can tell us how best to check for the problem during a test drive.
I know, that the 'few' complaints about Honda's VCM could be legitimate but I also know that messageboards can give the 'perception' that a problem is blown out of proportion to the total real numbers of people not having any issues. If you do a count, I believe only a few people had the problem in which they believe is directly related to the VCM. This forum here, is the only primary messageboard that I have seen this VCM issue. I Googled like crazy to see where else this VCM engine problem was discussed in depth and nowhere else could I find it. Maybe just minor mention elsewhere that one can somewhat feel the cylinder modes changing.
I am sure whoever started this topic has a problem with his particular Accord, but I am also guessing that others, known as Trollers possibly enhancing the VCM problem perception here. It does happen, people! That is the nature of the internet because of the anonymity factor.
This is my suggestion: We have free video hosting sites with YouTube being the largest one. To the original people complaining about Honda's VCM .... show us the problem. This is what some consumers have been doing. I saw this on a ABC show last summer:
http://abcnews.go.com/icaught/story?id=3546889&page=1
http://consumerist.com/about
Take your video cam or borrow one. If you want privacy, cover your license plates and also, you do not have to show yourself. With your video cam, drive your Honda Accord V6 Sedan and demonstrate to us the surging & cylinder mode changing. Narrate/describe to us before the test drive. Upload your videos to YouTube and give it a catchy title to grabs peoples attention.
In the meantime, I do not know what to do, other than do very extensive test drives of Accord sedans, however if I 'Factory Order' an Accord, I would not be able to test drive that particular one, since I'm commited beforehand to purchase it. Here in California, I am also seeing plenty of Honda advertisements on TV. I wish that I did not ever see this topic at this messageboard! :mad:
As far as doing a google search, you can go back through some of the posts on this VCM board and find the magazine articles describing the issue. Someone put it in one of the posts.
Ditto.
PS -- I did what Sunnfun said he was going to do: send a letter to the higher-ups at American Honda. Honda's response was a call from the same case manager I dealt with in the first go-round. He said "normal operation," nothing to be done. Dealing with Honda, no matter how high up or how politely, is not going to get the issue addressed.
I could not find the magazine article or articles at this forum in reference to VCM issues. It seems to me that some sort of more Pro-Active measure needs to be taken. According to those with the issues, Honda is supposedly Stonewalling it and it is not getting anywhere? Right or wrong? At this forum I did see Sunnfun's review of his Accord.
And a few more reviews by others which seems to give the perception that someone can HEAR it too. Strong descriptive words being used like: Surging, lurching, hunting, vibration speeds, constant shifting & changing. Then driver's reaction, like maddening, nauseous, very noticeable, very annoying, etc..
There are also some glowing reviews of the V6 Accord sedan, but very brief. I am not sure if some of the complaints are also including the Grade Logic Control as part of the problem (where it does extreme down-shift automatically?). To me, that seems like a worse feature. Again, hard to get a sense only through the forums what is really going on. It could be people with positive reviews not as bothered, in addition, the Honda dealers saying that is how this engine design normally works and then the customers just accept it because Honda supposedly has the Image of of Infallibility. They can do No Wrong ...... customer's objectivity is maybe affected by the Honda Mystique.
I can only think that Honda implemented this over-technological method/design , because they already had it, and as a quick fix to meet the demands of the Environmental-Greenists, and Honda can use in advertisement against competitors, e.g., "I am more Greener than You". With their VCM, I think it also meets some kind of PZEV rating (in Calif.), to further jump on Green bandwagon?? So, it seems that VCM engine is not a mechanical problem but a design idiosyncrasy that will not necessarily affect the reliability of the Accord and perhaps that is the position that Corporate Honda is presently taking.
I still think, anyone with this issue should VIDEO it and post it online. Also, maybe one can go to Honda dealer with their video cam & test drive; telling them you want to show the test drive to your wife or significant other . As I said, nothing is happening just posting here, besides just letting off steam (which is understandable). It seems that, Consumerism these days has to be a more visual, interactive and In Your Face strategy.
Again, I do not see too many complaints elsewhere about the VCM technology, however, this can be a Deal Killer for me, if it is indeed, that annoying, or perhaps can be tolerated, for the 'greater' Greener Cause. I suppose, I won't know until I go test drive them.
P.S. For whatever it's worth, this search term seems to get a lot of hits entering all the keywords: variable cylinder management +honda +problem
There have been links to articles in this discussion where the reviewers mentioned the issue, as I recall. Sounds like you may have made the search larger than necessary (a max of 200 items is returned). Try using the Search This Discussion box on the gray page bar on this page. Or maybe someone else remembers where they are or something more specific to use as a search term.
If I may make a suggestion, why don't you do exactly what you suggest in the end of your post - go take some test drives and let us know how they turn out. Take your own video camera and see if there is something you can capture with it. If so, you can post it right here on your own CarSpace page, no need for YouTube, btw.
That would be very helpful and a bit more helpful than telling the people here what they ought to be doing for your satisfaction.
Hmmm .... that's kind of strong interpretation. That is not my intention, "telling the people here", and I do not believe I was doing that but merely "thinking out loud" to maybe implant ideas or try something else, because right now, it appears to be a stalemate situation with Honda. I really Feel for those making this large dollar investment in their Accords and not getting straight answers or resolution from Honda.
Yes, you are right. I did conclude to myself, "I suppose, I won't know until I go test drive them" . First, I need to do some test videoing in my existing and friend's cars to see if indeed, anything can be detected by recording/documenting such as picking-up or hearing different tones/phases of engine sounds, shift point sounds, jerking motions, etc.. First time here at Edmunds. I did not know, one could post videos here. :shades:
that will work as well as catching paint drying on film.... cmon already.
But...
One person claimed that his glasses get literally thrown off his face due to VCM.
Another person described the sensation as akin to a 16 year old trying to shift gears with the car bucking all over the road.
Those two scenarios can CERTAINLY be videotaped. Assuming they actually happened in the manner described.
Honda has conservatively sold 20,000~30,000+ Accords with VCM in the US market alone, since September. If this were a real issue, we would be hearing about it all over the place.
I'm not suggesting it's not a real issue in singular, isolated situations, but we simply are not hearing about this as a problem from the universe of Accord owners.
Not yet anyway.
Just one single video would be helpful and enlightening.
I guess it boils down to the sales pitch that btw has changed radically since Oct.. as some sort of "proof in the pudding" or semi acknowledgment....now when asked about the feeling of vibration and surging the canned responses are "its normal: its a characteristic.. as opposed to prior.... must be a bad set of tires or balance or the car didn't get the NEW CAR calibration.. its all suspect to me.
AGAIN, if your car doesnt demonstrate these behaviors, good.. move over to the forums that talk about accessories or something, if they do stay here and keep sharing the feedback for those of us in VCM hell to learn more from share etc....
1. USA Today. "If you step up to the V-6 model, you'll get blazing engine performance but rougher downshifting than in the four-cylinder cars. Also, a sensitive driver can feel the V-6 go through its multicylinder transitions."
2. Autoweek. "Driving the multi-cylinder-deactivation V6, we did detect a slight hybridlike torque-on/torque-off feel when cruising at 60 or 70 mph under slight throttle (at about 2000 to 2500 rpm). Because the green “ECO” light was illuminated, indicating that the engine was running in fuel-saving economy mode, we were no doubt picking up the engine cycling between four- and three-cylinder modes. The transition from three- or four-cylinder mode to six-cylinder operation was undetectable."
3. Wall Street Journal. "Accord was fitted with a 268-horsepower, 3.5-liter V6 with what Honda calls Variable Cylinder Management. This technology is designed to boost fuel economy by allowing the six-cylinder engine to run on just three or four cylinders when full power isn't needed. It works almost seamlessly, but in this case, "almost" isn't good enough. During highway driving with the cruise control on I could feel a slight vibration when the engine switched from three- to four- to six-cylinder mode, which it does often, a downright maddening behavior."
I am sure there are others, but these were referenced right here by Edmunds users regarding VCM. Draw your own conclusions, and your mileage may vary.
As for VCM, the jury is still out. I don't feel it's a widespread design problem, but it's a significant enough change that those who are especially sensitive are annoyed by it. I really would like to see examples where people are thrown about as violently as some have suggested. If that's happening, it makes no sense that Honda is saying "this is normal." The truth is somewhere in the middle, and I think it leans toward it NOT being a chronic, widespread problem.
What we do know is that the 2008 Accord is the most radical change that Honda has ever introduced to its bread and butter product. VCM aside, the car is much larger, is more "Buick-like", offers some unique and innovative characteristics, but is still a Honda. Honda is a unique company that sells far more motorcycles, generators, lawnmowers and other power products than it does automobiles. It even sells airplanes. At its core it's an independent minded, engine-focused company that has always preferred more efficient, economical, high revving 4 cylinder motors to 6 cylinder versions. It fought like heck before it finally offered a V6 in the Accord. More recently, it resisted for years before it agreed to offer a V8 in the Legend/RL. It still can't decide what to put in the next NSX, because it's their philosophy to think smaller (ie: more efficient) displacement rather than bigger. That's their DNA.
What's this got to do with VCM? I guess the point is, only Honda would have the cojones to offer a technology like this on such a wide scale. It's reputation will live or die based on these daring, innovative moves. I tend to think they know what they're doing.
Edsel was thought to be innovative or daring in its brief time, too. So was New Coke.
More seriously, to respond to another one of your posts, the issue I'm more concerned about -- the harsh shifting, especially downshifting -- is unrelated to the (frequent) appearance and disappearance of the ECO light. That's one of the first things I checked for, and I noticed no correlation.
The bottom-line is this, we have spoken with Honda engineers & certified Honda techs in regards to our car. They told us the "ECO" light was a debated decision as they risked the placebo effect (makes sense). Also, they described the VCM Surging as "NOT seamless NOR goes Unnoticed" so did the regional Honda folks. So whether you agree or disagree, there seems to be contradiction within Honda itself on this subject and we saw it first hand.
At the end of the day I agree with some of the other posters here that the advertising is misleading (in my opinion). While I agree some owners do not notice, others do. You cant dismiss either as more acceptable or objectionable rather a fact. Again, a fact that does not support the claim that the VCM operation is "seamless (Webster's definition: conforming to a type, standard, or regular pattern), and goes Unnoticed" . In addition, many owners I have read (within this approx 1200 posts) have complained about "vibration" some slight , some excessive. What Richter scale they are using is not really that material, only that they are experiencing this outside of what we/they would feel in another vehicle both past Accords and other manufacturers. This is how we/they derive "normal" (Webster's:conforming to a type, standard, or regular pattern)
Just because Honda decided to invest their future for this particular model on VCM or other products does not in any way validate their decision. There have been other Auto makers that tried this and pulled it. In addition, changed direction on a concept or deign entirely i.e Honda's Hybrid.
This will continue to be a hot topic and one I will participate in as the issue is "real" and needs to be addressed in the forum of public opinion.
good times,,,,good times....
I GET IT now! It seems that some of the pro- auto reviewers or general auto reviewers giving somewhat positive comments about the 2008 Accord's V6/VCM engine; have not looked deeper, i.e, they do not make a distinction about Accord's 'version' of Cylinder Deactivation compared to other's being used by General Motors & Chrysler. There is a Difference. If I am wrong with this summation, feel free to correct me .......
The Accord V6/VCM engine:
It is the ONLY one that has has a deactivation scheme where it involves THREE stages: 6 - 4 - 3 cylinder operation. My understanding is, the glitch with Accords, is when it's going back & forth between 3 & 4 cylinder operation, that is where the sensation or hesitation is felt, but when it goes from 3 or 4 cylinders, to full 6 cylinder operation, it is relatively smooth. I just read that somewhere, but forgot which article it was.
GM's & Chrysler's engines deactivation is just TWO stages:
V-8 engines, 8 & 4 cylinder operation
V-6 engines, 6 & 3 cylinder operation
From what I scanned/browsed, GM's & Chrysler's cylinder deactivation systems seems to be successful. Back in 1981, GM failed with their Cadillac which used a deactivation scheme that involved THREE stages, 8 - 6 - 4 cylinders. Even though GM really screwed up then, they had the guts to attempt it again. FYI, this might be interesting reading from a past article.....
OCT '06, Auto Week
link Smooth Transition: GM seeks mpg without leaving engine in lurch
I know, I may be preaching to the choir, but above, just kind of a summary for new readers. :shades:
I know some new readers don't go through all the previous posts. So in the interest of giving equal time to both sides (you know, election time is nearing!) I'll give an update on my experience with my 08 EXL V6 Accord with a built date of 8/2007. I now have over 4000 miles on it and the VCM has been seamless to me and every passenger I've had for the past 4 months.
When driving at 45 mph (vibration is excessive) (3cyl mode??)
When driving at 72mph (vibration is excessive) (3 Cycle mode??)
sometimes in the 60-65mph it is as well. (4-3 mode?)
when accelerating or driving more agressivley (which i am sure reduces gas mileage) the car runs smooth as silk i.e vibration virtually diminishes (6cly mode??)
when driving within the city (where most new car testing is done around the dealer) i dont seem to feel the surging as much pronounced. Now, i do feel it, its juts not as often (6/4 mode??)
In cruise control on long 2+ hour drives at 70mph + and in Cruise Control, i dont feel the surging or lurching AT ALL. turn CC off and manually operate the accelerator and low and behold,, maddening VCM operation as other said hyperactive opeation, constant VCM searching and vinvration which makes for a terrible ride almost makes you sick.
I test drove 4 other 2008 Honda Accord V6's. I was unable to test drive them for 2+ hours on the highway but did go as long as 40 mins to try and reproduce my cars actions. In all 4 cases all 4 demonstarted the exact same 3cyl nightmare, better in (what I think was 4) and a dream while driving in 6 cly (heavey accelerating etc)
3 of the cars demonstrated the same vibration tendencies. 1 did as well but it seemed to be less in both the steering wheel and the seat.
Hope this helps... I am still in hell though. :sick:
Regarding occupants being "thrown about violently", I was referring to those who claimed VCM shook so violently that their glasses got jarred off their heads. Or that VCM was akin to a 16 year trying to shift a manual transmission car for the first time. That it causes the car to surge without driver control. Some posts are accompanied by the "Lemon Car" emoticon, or with demands for a class action lawsuit. A reference to the Japanese always stonewalling in the face of a problem. These are all strong, emotionally-fueled descriptors. You may have made some of them yourself.
So one person (very reasonably) suggested..."show me a video of this." (Heck, call it "Accords Gone Wild.") The overall response to that is "ridiculous....can't be witnessed in a video since it's just a sensation."
Well, which is it? Do we really have a problem that remotely approaches the descriptors above?
I own a VCM-equipped Honda, and never suggested that the system is seamless or unnoticed. It certainly is not that. But in my Honda it's a very subtle resonance only. Nothing close to the stories above. And I am approaching 41,000 miles.
I also own a PAX runflat-equipped Honda, so I am well aware that Honda can make dopey mistakes (with good intentions). Hondas are not perfect. They have taken responsibility for a variety of design or quality gaffs in past models.
The jury is still out and deliberating. We aren't seeing a lot of new posters come here and refer to problems with VCM.
But I'm not saying they aren't out there, either.
link AutoWeek: '2008 Accord / Honda’s 8th-generation midsizer aims for segment domination'
"Driving the multi-cylinder-deactivation V6, we did detect a slight hybridlike torque-on/torque-off feel when cruising at 60 or 70 mph under slight throttle (at about 2000 to 2500 rpm). Because the green “ECO” light was illuminated, indicating that the engine was running in fuel-saving economy mode, we were no doubt picking up the engine cycling between four- and three-cylinder modes. The transition from three- or four-cylinder mode to six-cylinder operation was undetectable."
link WSJ: 'Role Reversal:New Malibu Is Sleek, Accord Is Bloated'
"Accord was fitted with a 268-horsepower, 3.5-liter V6 with what Honda calls Variable Cylinder Management. This technology is designed to boost fuel economy by allowing the six-cylinder engine to run on just three or four cylinders when full power isn't needed. It works almost seamlessly, but in this case, "almost" isn't good enough. During highway driving with the cruise control on I could feel a slight vibration when the engine switched from three- to four- to six-cylinder mode, which it does often, a downright maddening behavior."
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I am only taking a guess, that the Accord's V6/VCM is very sensitive and so technology dependent, that all the components must work flawlessly, and if not tuned or adjusted precisely, the glitch or idiocyncrasy is evident?? This is the only reason I can account for the "Differences" among the Accords? Also, the possibility that local Honda dealer technicians, do not know how to troubleshoot this issue yet, unless Corporate Honda starts addressing it and get their engineers to seriously work on it? Possibly, not a reliability problem, but very understandable to Accord owners, a valid comfort/ride issue, in which these models are not performing with the expected quality of previous Accords.
P.S. Also, one cannot compare these Accords V6/VCM with Honda's previous models of Odyssey Minivans with a different VCM engine, cylinder deactivation. Those were TWO STAGE Cylinder Deactivation, 6 & 3 cylinders. The 2008 Accords, it's a THREE STAGE Cylinder Deactivation scheme, 6, 4, & 3 cylinders.
Just refreshing the facts for new visitors
I thought I posted this here recently, but perhaps I didn't. For everyone, if you want to refer to a previous post, do the following:
Locate the post.
Right-click on the post number (which is a link) and choose Copy Shortcut, Copy Link Location, or whatever similar language your browser uses.
Go to a new post box, type whatever you want and when you are ready to insert the link, right-click and choose Paste (or whatever similar language your browser uses).
When you post the message, the link you pasted will be accessible to anyone who wants to pursue it.
Think about it - if everyone keeps reposting the same things over and over we'd have quite a mess!! :-)
Jusvistn, I think we'd be very interested in your personal experiences over what you gather from previous posts. Have you had a chance to check out any V6 Accords yet?